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Lobke Spain
11-05-2014, 09:56 PM
I thought I'd ask how many different colors you use in your palette. This includes black and white. You can detail below why you pick that amount, or you can just vote without a comment also.

yellow_oxide
11-05-2014, 10:17 PM
My palette is always limited, but my collection is not. On any given painting I only use a few paints, but it's always a different set of 3-5 for each painting. If it's watercolor, where I can use the white of the paper, then I may only use 1-2 paints.

WFMartin
11-05-2014, 11:42 PM
I teach an oil painting class at a local recreation center. Through the years, I have tried to reduce my recommended palette of colors, merely to save my students some expense when buying paints for my class.

I've discovered that most landscapes (which is the subjects we paint in my class) can be created with only about 6 colors, including Black and White. This is my palette for every landscape you'll ever want to paint:

Ivory Black
Ultramarine Blue
Burnt Umber
Cadmium Red
Cadmium Yellow Light
Titanium White.

I can't imagine a landscape (and most still-lifes) that I could not create by using those colors. I use M. Graham Oil Paints.

With 10 colors, I could paint nearly any subject you'd want!

Journeyman
11-06-2014, 05:00 AM
Most of the time I’ve no idea of what colours or how many are on the palette. I regularly clean up the mixing area during a painting and group the mixes together so they produce useful grays and darks. Colours are added as necessary to adjust the saved paints and mixes. Because I freeze my palettes in the Deep Freeze some of the colours will have been squeezed out months ago. Sometimes I’ll have three palettes on the go and will chose the palette that has colour and mixes on it that will best suite the next painting.

:wave: Dave.

Mythrill
11-06-2014, 06:54 AM
22+... because I love to try new pigments!

I do stick to a minimum when painting, though.

Mythrill
11-06-2014, 07:10 AM
22+... because I love to try new pigments!

I do stick to a minimum when painting, though.
Case in point: I'm trying to paint a sparrow opaquely. This time, I combined Phthalo Green Blue Shade (PG7) and Dioxazine Purple (PV 23) in a monochromatic painting.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Nov-2014/96427-Sparrow.jpg


It was fun to paint, but I never get the beak, feathers (not very smooth) and head right, so if anyone could give me some advice in private messages, I would be glad.

Patrick1
11-06-2014, 07:29 AM
This time, I combined Phthalo Green Blue Shade (PG7) and Dioxazine Purple (PV 23) in a monochromatic painting.
Nice! It's a lovely bunch of indigo colors you got. That's a color combination I've used before too...but I've more often used PG7 + PR122...which gives similar results.

You could use something like Yellow Ochre and a brown or orange-brown to make an earth RYB triad to get any additional colors you need.

Mythrill
11-06-2014, 08:19 AM
Nice! It's a lovely bunch of indigo colors you got. That's a color combination I've used before too...but I've more often used PG7 + PR122...which gives similar results.

You could use something like Yellow Ochre and a brown or orange-brown to make an earth RYB triad to get any additional colors you need.

Thanks, Patrick! I'll definitely try some Yellow Ochre and a few different green-blue combinations here. I'm interested to see how they all play out!

Gigalot
11-06-2014, 08:50 AM
Last day I used this palette:
I can calculate 16 different paints including one self-made on it.

Gigalot
11-06-2014, 08:53 AM
for this painting:
But as I remember more than 25 different paints were used totally to paint it.
I use different paints to paint and to glaze because of better working properties. For example: Volkonskoite to glaze and Chromium oxide and Cobalt green to paint.

Mythrill
11-06-2014, 02:08 PM
for this painting:
But as I remember more than 25 different paints were used totally to paint it.
I use different paints to paint and to glaze because of better working properties. For example: Volkonskoite to glaze and Chromium oxide and Cobalt green to paint.

Giga, it looks beautiful.

Lobke Spain
11-06-2014, 08:52 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I didn't expect to see those two lovely paintings either, thanks for sharing.

Gigalot
11-07-2014, 04:39 AM
I can use less paint tubes to work: Zinc White, Ti-Zn White, RGB+CMYK+Violet. But some extra paints are pleasant to have and to work with, can save time and probably, some money.
(Actually, Yellow Ochre can't save you much money when used instead of Cadmium. Cadmium is expensive, but Ochre is weak pigment and you need to add it twice or 3x more.)

Patrick1
11-07-2014, 07:21 AM
This is my palette for every landscape you'll ever want to paint:

Ivory Black
Ultramarine Blue
Burnt Umber
Cadmium Red
Cadmium Yellow Light
Titanium White.

Bill...since you live in a desert climate, that's a good palette...a classic RYB palette that gives nice harmony. But if you lived in a coastal/ocean region (especially a tropical one) I would not want to have to get by without a Phthalo or Cobalt blue, green, or turquoise. But you did say landscape. :lol:

Patrick1
11-07-2014, 07:25 AM
Giga, very nice 3D spatial effect you got with those peaches and branches. :thumbsup:

Gigalot
11-07-2014, 08:08 AM
Giga, very nice 3D spatial effect you got with those peaches and branches. :thumbsup:
Yeah! Thanks to David Briggs advice and A.Kitaoka. I tried to rotate those fruits, but nope:crying: . But, I guess, some shrinking - expanding movement in this painting I got! :) I guess, Patrick, linear branches or leaves prevent rotation effect. Branches gives a "wave" effect.

I got an idea to make moving much later, when painting was almost complete...while 3D spatial effect appeared soon after I began to paint it.

WFMartin
11-07-2014, 02:29 PM
Bill...since you live in a desert climate, that's a good palette...a classic RYB palette that gives nice harmony. But if you lived in a coastal/ocean region (especially a tropical one) I would not want to have to get by without a Phthalo or Cobalt blue, green, or turquoise. But you did say landscape. :lol:


That is amusing. Actually, I used to recommend that the students also invest in Thalo Blue, but many times my students would wonder why they bothered having it on their palettes, as we seldom needed to use it for most landscape paintings. Sometimes I used it for a sky, near the horizon, mixed with lots of white.

Thalo Blue is still a color that I consider, and if I were to add one more color to that palette, it would be Thalo Blue.:thumbsup:

Ribera
11-07-2014, 06:32 PM
11/05/14 Quote from Lobke:
I thought I'd ask how many different colors you
use in your palette.
25 for me. . . although obviously, I don't use
'em all all the time.
I frequently refrain from manganese blue,
Mars black, terre verté, titanium white, as well
as raw umber; however, they all serve useful
purposes, and when they called on, they could-
n't be replaced adequately.
And my palette's 16"x20", too.
r

Bradicus
11-07-2014, 10:40 PM
Lobke, I didnt see a post where the OP comes clean...

I use: Titanium Wt
FUB
Cerulean
Viridian( may be divorcing, were seperated now)
Sap( mix)
Cad Yellow lt
Indain yell pr 101
YO
Trans red Ox
Cad red lt
And AC Prem, so 11 !

Have others, but just dont use them. I put out every one, every time unless doing something that calls for only a few.

Cheers, Brad

Bradicus
11-07-2014, 10:45 PM
Mythrill and Gigalot: great paintings!

Brad

opainter
11-07-2014, 11:09 PM
Gigalot and Mythrill - Both paintings are nice!

Gigalot - I know that the Cobalt and Chromium greens are very opaque, so I can understand you using the Volkonskoite paint to glaze on top. You made it from Volkonskoite pigment, right?

Lobke Spain
11-08-2014, 02:29 AM
Lobke, I didnt see a post where the OP comes clean...
Sure, I use 9 colors now. I wrote in the OP "too lazy to put out more than 10 colors". That would be me lol. I realised I always put out half my palette because I felt like immediately starting painting, so I went from around 12-14 back to 9, which I do put out almost every time I paint.

Hansa Yellow (middle yellow)
Hansa Yellow Deep (orangy yellow)
Pyrrole red
Quinacridone Magenta
Phthalo Blue
Phthalo Green
Raw Umber

Titanium White
Ivory Black


Before this palette I also had an Ultramarine, Yellow Ochre and Venetian red. But I stopped using those once I realised I didn't have much issues without them.

The only color I miss sometimes is Ultramarine, it's the psychological blue for me, the middle blue that is so common in skies. It's quite a useful color but I seem to manage just fine making it with phthalo and quinacridone.

Gigalot
11-08-2014, 03:40 AM
Gigalot and Mythrill - Both paintings are nice!

Gigalot - I know that the Cobalt and Chromium greens are very opaque, so I can understand you using the Volkonskoite paint to glaze on top. You made it from Volkonskoite pigment, right?

Thank you all! My painting is not finished yet..I think, a useful "theoretical" choice for wide color gamut palette can be (RGB+CMYK+W)x2 formulation :D I mean, one transparent paint and one opaque paint for each color. Somewhat Zinc & Titanium White; Quin Red & Cadmium Red; Tr.Yellow PY128 & Cadmium Yellow light; Phthalo Green & Cobalt Green and so on.. One Cobalt Green is quite transparent, it is Cobalt Green Deep PG19, the other forms are opaque or semiopaque.

I have a tubed Volkonskoite :) Good paint for Terre Verte funs!

Chromium Oxide is very opaque and very "flat", but quite useful paint in mixtures. Volkoskoite is transparent and deep green. It can make a pleasant green shadows. It works like many other Terre Verte paints. Volkonskoite contains natural Chromium in it. Many paint manufacturers adds Viridian to a "regular" Terre Verte to give better green color to it.
I know 3 different forms of Terre Verte natural greens:
1. Celadonite, can be find near volcano basalt deposits, bluish Verona green
2. Glaukonite, - sea sediment, glaukonite sand, yellowish green
3. Volkonskoite - chromium clay.

basalsa
11-08-2014, 11:25 AM
I just attended a painting class and they suggested the following :
Ivory Black
Phthalo Blue
Burnt Sienna
Yellow Ochre
Cadmium Red Deep
Cadmium Yellow Light
Titanium White

They said after a while I will need to add :
Ultramarine Blue
Cadmium Red Medium
Permanent Alizarin Crimson

A total of 10 tubes

Bradicus
11-08-2014, 12:39 PM
...Before this palette I also had an Ultramarine, Yellow Ochre and Venetian red...The only color I miss sometimes is Ultramarine, it's the psychological blue for me, the middle blue that is so common in skies. It's quite a useful color ...
Lobke, so if I may ask. What is the reason to not use FUB? Or YO. Two very inexpensive paints. You have black, the easist colour to mix.
I am just curious, in the most friendly way, why 'do without' for you?
Just less paint? For me, I dont want more than 12 tubes to deal with (use 10-11 now)but premixing already is a big time eater, so balance a few more tubes with time saved. (and maybe a headache saved once in a while too!)
I also want to be a master of my tools: I work quickly with the paints I know.
Cheers, Brad

Full Disclosure: I just bought Rembrandts' "Rose's and Lilac" paint for a painting. Who could resist a paint made from ground up flowers? I ask you!

Lobke Spain
11-08-2014, 12:46 PM
Lobke, so if I may ask. What is the reason to not use FUB? Or YO. Two very inexpensive paints. You have black, the easist colour to mix.
I am just curious, in the most friendly way, why 'do without' for you?
Just less paint? For me, I dont want more than 12 tubes to deal with (use 10-11 now)but premixing already is a big time eater, so balance a few more tubes with time saved. (and maybe a headache saved once in a while too!)
I also want to be a master of my tools: I work quickly with the paints I know.
Cheers, Brad

Full Disclosure: I just bought Rembrandts' "Rose's and Lilac" paint for a painting. Who could resist a paint made from ground up flowers? I ask you!
I actually want to use them sometimes, and I tried them again today. If I added them I would have 11 paints, since I like to do figures, maybe I should.

I have found some benefits to using YO and Venetian over time.
-they don't cost much
-I get quicker and more reliable to my browns with them than the long and dangerous road from saturated oranges to brown
-YO and venetenian (or inidian / or red oxide) give good opacity

So maybe I should use them, I guess you like them too?

Where you the persn who said you used Raw Umber to easily get to muted yellows to counter the hue shift black causes? I guess I mix kind of similar to how you do it.

FUB? btw

Lobke Spain
11-08-2014, 12:51 PM
French Ultramarine Blue...now I get it, haha, that took me a whole of 2 minutes before my light went on. I guess I should consider adding it, seems like a few ppl in the thread use it too. I admit ultramarine is really handy, it's the center sky / baby blue that is in so much skies and so many oceans / lakes.

Anohter reason why I found it handy is because while you can get to ultramarine with Phthalo blue and Quinacridone, both are dark colors and it's hard to judge where you are without adding white, often times you don't want to add white, and the conidtions outside aren't optiaml to judge the dark color correctly.


Maybe it's just practice though, although even practice doesn't help when the lighting conditions aren't optimal.

Full Disclosure: I just bought Rembrandts' "Rose's and Lilac" paint for a painting. Who could resist a paint made from ground up flowers? I ask you!
That's awesome. Looks like a lovely shade too.

Gigalot
11-08-2014, 01:12 PM
I just attended a painting class and they suggested the following :
Ivory Black
Phthalo Blue
Burnt Sienna
Yellow Ochre
Cadmium Red Deep
Cadmium Yellow Light
Titanium White

They said after a while I will need to add :
Ultramarine Blue
Cadmium Red Medium
Permanent Alizarin Crimson

A total of 10 tubes
:thumbsup:
You can start to paint with this color kit. It is also OK for myself as I think.
Only a little correction I probably do is to replace Titaniun White to a Zinc-Titanium white with the working properties and opacity close to a Lead White paint. Pure Titanium White is a very opaque paint for regular mixing!
And "Permanent Alizarin Crimson" is not the best choise for me. I have it, but for general purpose using I prefer "Carmine" - Quinacrisone Magenta PR122 or Thalo Red Rose (Quinacridone rose PV19) W.F.Martin always suggest and I agree. :)

Bradicus
11-08-2014, 01:29 PM
-I get quicker and more reliable to my browns with them than the long and dangerous road from saturated oranges to brown...
HAHA! So true, makes me laugh. I feel the same.

Your using phthalos so hats off to you. Super versital but so powerful.
You may drop one of the phthalos if you add FUB.( yes it MUST be french, otherwise, its just UB, and ahh, works exactly the same, lol)

I dont want to pitch my palette,( who am I, you know?) but if you do skintones, you might try cerulean rs or bs. Its more expense and is weak. But for fine graduations in graying down skin tones, it works great because of its weakness. For its own colour, you can mix it easily, and I could live without no problem. But super helpful.
I also have viridian for same reason, but I havent been using it at all. So may drop.

Lobke, what brands of paint do you use/have where you are?

Cheers,
Brad

Lobke Spain
11-08-2014, 01:44 PM
Thanks for the tips. I never tried cerulean because it's so expensive, I probably won't if I am honest, since I don't have that much money to spend on my paints.

The brands, hm W&N, Sennelier and Shin Han.

I buy the Hansa from W&N since they're the only ones that have them. I buy the common pyrrole and phthalo from Shin Han sine they're good but cheaper, and I buy my white from Sennelier since it's creamy and easy to handle. I buy safflower oil medium from Sennelier too, it has no smell and it's lovely. W&N has safflower medium too now but it's recent, they didn't have it before.

Bradicus
11-08-2014, 01:53 PM
I dont know shin han, but WN and Sennelier are good brands.
They can be a bit expensive. Cast around and see if Grumbacher is sold.
It a good brand and considerably cheaper. Of coase you may be happy with Shin Han.

And yes, if every dollar counts; skip cerulean. You won't miss it.
I use M graham, grumbacher, WN, sennelier, and blue ridge.
If I was using OH, I wouldnt be using Cerulean! USD$81.00!!!
Typical here for good quality is 16-26$.

Cheers,
Brad

Gigalot
11-08-2014, 02:05 PM
Cerulean? Prussian Blue mixed with Zinc White is a good immitation for color/working properties. Might helps :)
See on my palette posted here. A large paint pile is Prussian Blue and a small piece of paint on the right of it is Cerulean. Quite close in color. Darker spot is Cobalt blue deep.

Bradicus
11-08-2014, 02:17 PM
Picture didnt come through Gigalot.

Repost would you, I am very curious.
I havent used prussian.

Cheers, Brad

Gigalot
11-08-2014, 03:00 PM
Picture didnt come through Gigalot.

Repost would you, I am very curious.
I havent used prussian.

Cheers, Brad

Picture is here, posted at 11-06-2014, 08:50 AM on the first page, right under Mythrill's painting, Brad! Prussian is gorgeous color.

Bradicus
11-08-2014, 03:34 PM
Ah ha! I am on board now.

Yes that mix looks very much like Cerulean.

Prussian mixes a beautiful blue. Looks like a kind and friendly phthalo blue.
What kind of mixing stength does one find in store bought versions?

You mention you made one of the colours used, which one?

I know you make quite a few.
Do you make a large quanity each time?

Cheers, Brad

basalsa
11-08-2014, 04:13 PM
:thumbsup:
You can start to paint with this color kit. It is also OK for myself as I think.
Only a little correction I probably do is to replace Titaniun White to a Zinc-Titanium white with the working properties and opacity close to a Lead White paint. Pure Titanium White is a very opaque paint for regular mixing!
And "Permanent Alizarin Crimson" is not the best choise for me. I have it, but for general purpose using I prefer "Carmine" - Quinacrisone Magenta PR122 or Thalo Red Rose (Quinacridone rose PV19) W.F.Martin always suggest and I agree. :)
Replaced the titanium white to titanum-zinc PW6+PW4 as suggested :)
Replaced the alizarin crimson to PR122, labeled "primary red-magenta" they have obvious hue difference.
lets see which one will work better to my taste.
Thanks :)

Gigalot
11-08-2014, 04:14 PM
I did a black paint there. :) Prussian Blue is more friendly colour than Phthalo! But Phthalo can be slightly more satureted. I tried Cerulean there just because a very light tints of blue can be less lightfast when done with Prussian. I added Cerulean to a light tints only.

Gigalot
11-08-2014, 04:16 PM
Replaced the alizarin crimson to PR122, labeled "primary red-magenta" they have obvious hue difference.

PR122 + Burnt Siena (you have) mixture is a good Alizarin replacement. Try! I did it many times..

Mythrill
11-08-2014, 06:11 PM
[...]
Your using phthalos so hats off to you. Super versital but so powerful.
You may drop one of the phthalos if you add FUB.( yes it MUST be french, otherwise, its just UB, and ahh, works exactly the same, lol)
[...]


Just out of curiosity, French Ultramarine Blue (PB 29) usually most loved in oils. In nearly all watermedia, people usually prefer the middle shade.

The reason is that, since linseed oil has a slight yellow cast, the violet tones of Ultramarine Blue "disappear" more easily (it becomes more greenish), so you must use one Ultramarine Blue that's more violet than usual.

In most watermedia, since the binder is either less yellow (watercolors, for example) or colorless (acrylics), the violet tones show a lot more, so the French Shade looks duller!

In other words, to get the same shade in oils as you do in watermedia, the pigment in oils must be more violet.

Daniel Smith carries both shades in acrylics. Ultramarine Blue:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2014/96427-Ultramarine_Blue.jpg

French Ultramarine Blue. Notice the slightly duller tints:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2014/96427-French.jpg


If you want to have a wider gamut with Ultramarine Blue, you can get the green shade and mix Ultramarine Violet (PV 15) with it, since it is the "good stuff" that makes Ultramarine Blue a bit redder. It works wonders, and it also gives you an extra violet! :)

Bradicus
11-08-2014, 09:14 PM
Mythrill, ok I didnt follow it all, so bear with me.

So the French version of ultramarine is suppose to be more violet?
I know that FUB is a 'cut above 'version of UB.
But I dont see it more violet, in oils.
I have both UB and FUB and I cannot tell a diff.
Of coarse there could be some 'marketing' going on.
In your samples there is diff a difference.

Im going to look up which brands I have. Honestly, Blick seems to give me a free tube of UB every time I order!

Thanks for the info. Now I am super curious.
Brad

Lobke Spain
11-09-2014, 01:32 AM
I can not tell the difference between french and (green shade) ultramarine either. Maybe it's a brand thing.

I can see it on the picture in this forum, but I can not see it in my paint from Winsor. Since winsor calls regular (non-french) ultramarine "green shade", it is probably true that French is supposed to be slightly more violet, but I can not tell the difference in real life, it is minuscule.

Lobke Spain
11-09-2014, 01:55 AM
winsor claim

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2014/1892143-9890.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2014/1892143-9859.jpg

what I see in real-life:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2014/1892143-IMG_1632.JPG

Reason to pick green shade for me is even though I can barely tell the difference, ultramarine is used by me when I do skies / water / baby blue, and there is no violet in those usually, so it is easier to get it right with a green shade which has elimiated the violet shade.

People say violet bit better pigments, maybe true though, but I tend to use green shade if I use it since you can be certain all the violet has been eliminated. Maybe skies would be prettier with some purple shade though, lol.

Patrick1
11-09-2014, 04:59 AM
Off on a tangent, did anyone notice that the [brand name withheld :clear: ] paint swatches of Ultramarine Blue and French Ultramarine posted here earlier (post #39) are actually the exact same physical texture...just flipped vertically? (compare closely and you'll see). The paint edges seem to have been altered to make it look different, but it seems to be the 'same' paint sample! ...just colored different. Here's another example I've found : Ultramarine Blue (top) and Phthalo Blue GS (bottom) seem to be the 'same' paint swatch:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2014/2769-acrylics_swatches.jpg

I've noticed this with quite a few of their swatches of various colors, not just some of the blues. So it seems like these are not photos of the actual respective paint swatches, but are colorized simulations to show what the real 'color' looks like. If indeed that's the case, I don't see anything wrong with that per se, but it would be nice to know that. Maybe this would explain why this brand's online swatches look unusually luscious.

Mythrill
11-09-2014, 08:28 AM
Hi, everyone. It seems Ultramarine (Green Shade) vs French Ultramarine made some people curious. I'll try to answer what I can!

Mythrill, ok I didnt follow it all, so bear with me.
So the French version of ultramarine is suppose to be more violet?
Yes, precisely. Ultramarine (PB29) is already a blue-violet, but French Ultramarine (also PB 29) is even more violet. The violet undertones show more easily in water media, which is why people prefer French Ultramarine in oils.



I know that FUB is a 'cut above 'version of UB.
But I dont see it more violet, in oils.

Brad, there are two things to consider:

1. Oils make violet undertones of Ultramarine harder to show, both due to them being yellow and also due to them absorbing more pigment.

2. The difference between regular Ultramarine and French Ultramarine varies from brand to brand.

It's also important to calibrate your monitors. The gamut a monitor can give is already restricted in comparison to all the pigments there are (not just CMYK). Not calibrating periodically it will create or worsen a color bias and reduce the gamut you can see, making, for instance, all colors display slightly bluish (more common, due to the high temperature of monitors), or more yellowish, greenish or reddish.

That being said, the difference between the green shade of Ultramarine and French Ultramarine is very subtle, just like that of Phthalo Blue Green and Red Shade (PB 15:1 and PB 15:3, respectively). When in doubt, always check the masstone and the tints. If all fails, use a color picker.

For instance, let's check Lobke's photo:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2014/96427-1892143-IMG_1632.JPG

The first thing we can notice on this photo is that the same on the left looks more violet at first glance. However, it was also mixed with more white than the blue at the left.

Why is this important? Because Ultramarine, when mixed with Titanium White (PW 6), shows a more pronounced hue shift towards violet.

Another interesting step is to look at the upper part of the masstone. In the left part, in which the undertone without mixture with white shows (if only for a bit), using a color picker gives me values such as RGB 6, 0, 148. On the right, I get values in which the pigment seems to reflect much more green or in which it green exceeds red. Example: RGB 13,14,164.

If we look at those averages and proportions, then this proves that, indeed, the Ultramarine on the right is indeed greener than the one on the left.

That is not all. If we look at this photo, which I showed before:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2014/96427-96427-French.jpg

we see that Daniel's French Ultramarine (acrylics) has a hue angle of 258º in masstone. Lobke's French Ultramarine has an average angle smaller than 258º, which means it is slightly greener on the average than Daniel Smith's. The paint on the right has an even smaller average angle: 249º to 240º. This shows how much greener the paint is.

I'm not sure if the binder is causing such a big difference, though.

Now, let's see Patrick's comparison between French Ultramarine (above) and Phthalo Green Blue Shade (below):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2014/96427-2769-acrylics_swatches.jpg

Here, we can see that the masstone of Phthalo Green shows RGB values of 40, 35, 35. In general Phthalo Green Blue Shade shows that it reflects green almost as much as it reflects red. French Ultramarine, on the other hand, gives RGB values around (71, 51, 156), showing it reflects much more red in masstone.

That's not all: when mixed with white, French Ultramarine still seems to reflect a lot of red on the average. Example: 103, 111, 184. Phthalo Blue Green Shade, on the other hand, will sometimes show twice as much green in proportion to blue. Example: 47, 96, 165.

This not only shows how much greener Phthalos are, in general, but it also makes me wonder if Daniel Smith also used Zinc White (PW4) instead of Titanium White here. The point is that Ultramarine became cooler when mixed with white, which should not happen normally: Titanium White is warm, so mixing Ultramarine with Titanium should kept the proportions the same or enhanced the reflectance of red. We see this trend quite clearly in Lobke's mixing.

My guess is that Daniel Smith follows this convention in acrylics and oils:
Warm color (red, yellow, red-violet): mix with Titanium White until it reaches Munsell N4-N5.
Cool color (green, blue, blue-violet): mix with Zinc White until it reaches Munsell N4-N5.

Bradicus
11-09-2014, 03:06 PM
Mythrill,
Wow, that was super informitive. I had no idea. Thank you!

As Lobke said, I cant see it, but could be in monitor.
I always "expected" the result to be same when using UB and FUB. I am going to mix them and see if I can tell the diff.
A) I might not be able to see it. Everyones range is diff.
B) My FUB manufactures may have opt to use 'less' of the good stuff. No, stop it, they wouldn't do that!

...Oils make violet undertones of Ultramarine harder to show, both due to ... and also due to them absorbing more pigment...
Could you expand on UB adsorbing more pigment showing less violet.

Patrick,
I have long suspected this. PROOF! At last. Ha, thank you for the investigational journalism.
Some of those swatches look sooo good.
Cheers,
Brad

Gigalot
11-09-2014, 03:21 PM
Fake digital swatches is not a most serious trouble with paint tubes. The more problematic manufacturers attempts are that they can add fluorescent or very chromatic pigments into a normal, natural paints. After adding this stuff, their ochres, quins, cadmiums or cobalts show more "vivid", more "brilliant" colors due to organic pigment additives . THE TROUBLE IS THAT THEY DON'T SHOW SUCH ADDITIVES on the paint tube labels. However, most artists always prefer their "fake" colours just because natural paints are less "brilliant". For example, 100% natural ochre is much less vivid than ochre with some PY1 pigment into it. But this fluorescent or dye additives can cause strong discolration after short time.

Mythrill
11-09-2014, 03:53 PM
Mythrill,
Wow, that was super informitive. I had no idea. Thank you!

As Lobke said, I cant see it, but could be in monitor.
I always "expected" the result to be same when using UB and FUB. I am going to mix them and see if I can tell the diff.
A) I might not be able to see it. Everyones range is diff.

Thanks!

If you can't see the difference, I suggest you get an image editing software and using the color picker. Check for how much red, green and blue is reflected by analyzing multiple points of the paint and taking an average from that.


B) My FUB manufactures may have opt to use 'less' of the good stuff. No, stop it, they wouldn't do that!

Yes, they would! :)

The reason behind that is that the ultramarine oxides – the "good stuff" that makes ultramarine have violet undertones – actually make it duller in watermedia (watercolor, acrylics, gouache, etc). If watermedia shows violet undertones more easily and adding more dulls color, it only makes makes sense to get a greener shade of ultramarine to get a greener, more saturated blue.


Could you expand on UB adsorbing more pigment showing less violet.

Yes. The green shade of Ultramarine Blue (PB 29) reflects more blue than violet, which will give you slightly better greens and less saturated violets. By mixing this with a bit of Phthalo Blue Green Shade (PG 7), you can get a relatively clean cyan paint (at a lower chroma)*. In contrast, by adding Ultramarine Violet (PV 15), which is nearly only or just ultramarine oxides, the result will be nearly identical to a tube French Ultramarine (PB 29).

Personally, I prefer the red shade of Ultramarine Violet. It's a bit cleaner. :thumbsup:

________________________________

* Note: yes, I said before that a blue shade of Dioxazine Purple (PV 23) and Phthalo Green Blue Shade makes cyan, but I admit the hue shift towards purple is a bit too big when you mix it with white, so it only looks cyan in masstone. You can get a much cleaner cyan hue both in masstone and in tints by mixing a green shade of Ultramarine Violet (PB 29) and Phthalo Green Blue Shade (PG 7).

Bradicus
11-09-2014, 09:08 PM
... The more problematic manufacturers attempts are that they can add fluorescent or very chromatic pigments into a normal, natural paints. After adding this stuff, their ochres, quins, cadmiums or cobalts show more "vivid", more "brilliant" colors due to organic pigment additives . THE TROUBLE IS THAT THEY DON'T SHOW SUCH ADDITIVES on the paint tube labels...
Gigalot,
Do you feel the more reputable companies do this?
Also, I know you like pr122 and pv19 as a mangenta, in fact I have 122 cause if seen you mention it some many times. And I really like it.
But have you used pr264 for a AC replecement or just a magenta?
I am using rembrandts prem madder deep pr264, and I am super impressed with it. I also use Blue ridge and gamblins AC perm, but I think the rembrandt is better, and a single pigment. I believe, under possible correction, that 264 is more lightfast than 122 aswell.

Mythrill,
Ok I mixed UB and FUB and maybe, just maybe, FUB is more violet.
Wow they are close, but I mixed, had my wife put out swatches, and I could pick it out. But oh my thats a close race!!!
So thank you for the information, it was very imformitive.

Cheers,
Brad

yellow_oxide
11-09-2014, 09:32 PM
I believe, under possible correction, that 264 is more lightfast than 122 aswell.

It appears to depend on which variety of PR122 you have. I posted observations over on this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20025036) a long while back. I'm pretty sure there's two varieties, anyways. Even if not, then at the very least some paints made with it must have other things in them.

Daniel Smith makes two oil paints from PR122 alone, and they only rate one as lightfast while the other had a poor rating. My PR122 pigment from Pebeo has a high lightfastness rating on the bottle.

Bradicus
11-09-2014, 10:46 PM
It appears to depend on which variety of PR122 you have. I posted observations over on this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20025036) a long while back. .
PY42,
Pretty nice, just whip out some oil paint! Impressive.
Interesting thread, but left with more questions than anwsers really on where the veriblity in lightfastness comes from. But regardless, in oils, both 122 and 264 seem very stable.

Hey Gigalot,
look what I came across after I asked you if you use pr264...lol
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=618119

Cheers,
Brad

Gigalot
11-10-2014, 02:34 AM
Gigalot,
Do you feel the more reputable companies do this?
Also, I know you like pr122 and pv19 as a mangenta, in fact I have 122 cause if seen you mention it some many times. And I really like it.
But have you used pr264 for a AC replecement or just a magenta?
Cheers,
Brad
I think, they can do that, but probably in student grade only (I hope so!), very small amount and very carefully, only to beat other reputable brands in color beautiness. Probably, rhodamine PR81 into quin. I suspect this additive once in a very reputable brand colour! Just a very small amount, but enough to give great attraction for their miracle colour! Actually, no problem with this paint, it fades rapidly to a "normal" color just during one week and do not affect my paintings. I just use this color with some care in my bright mixtures. Hope, it is not a wide practic because they can loose their reputation soon if chemistry laboratories begins to test those colours. :evil:

But I will be very angry if somebody try to add yellow to a natural colored ochre! I suspected Maries, but no, Maries Gold Ochre seems to be pure PY42.
My Russian Ochres is also perfect.

I have a small tube of genuine alizarin, a tube of PR177 and a tube of PR146.
These pants are just one egg twins! :D PR264 can be a bit less vivid "alizarin", but Einion preferred this PR264. It can vary in transparency from one brand to another. :)
I am not sure what to do with all these alizarine tubes! So many Alizarines! I use this color a little..Quin is more useful for me!

Patrick1
11-10-2014, 04:20 AM
Ok I mixed UB and FUB and maybe, just maybe, FUB is more violet. Wow they are close, but I mixed, had my wife put out swatches, and I could pick it out. But oh my thats a close race!!!
That has been my experience too after using Ultramarine for many years as a staple color in oils and acrylics - all the French versions I've used so far were barely more purplish, if at all. Grumbacher has Ultramarine Blue Deep which they say is the deepest of all their Ultramarines, including French. But I don't know if that is to say it's more purplish. I will be trying it asap.

I've never yet tried a 'green' version, I would like to...perhaps it's a bit like a poor man's Cobalt Blue. Grumbacher's 'Permanent Blue' is an Ultramarine Blue that they say has "a Greenish undertone that has no trace of Red".

Lobke Spain
11-10-2014, 04:27 AM
It's good to know about the slight difference if anything. If say you're not painting under ideal lighting conditions, and you can't tell the difference on your palette, just knowing you have a baby blue (UV) or violetish baby blue (FUB) is interesting information that can be used to your advantage.

It's the same reason I don't want to use just a 3 saturated colors palette, while under ideal lighting conditions someone could make many colors, your chances of mixing correctly in sub-optimal lighting conditions quickly diminish. This is less the case, I believe, if you have a bit wider amount of paint tubes. Of course, when you do always have the right lighting conditions, and always employ a painting knife, your chances of getting your mixture wrong are smaller. I'm just not one of those people who always paints under perfect daylight or artificial light in an expensive studio, I often paint is very sub-optimal conditions where because of lighting, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between UB or FUB.

Lobke Spain
11-10-2014, 12:36 PM
Who needs Earths again, I removed them again except for the Raw Umber.

It's a matter of practice for people with limited palettes. I seem to get better at it over time. I wonder if anyone with a limited palette of modern pigments is ever able to have the piece of mind and security someone with earths has however. It's not that I'm incapable of making earths, it's more a security factor for most people I think.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2014/1892143-vbnvnvnvnvnvnvnvnvn.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2014/1892143-gfhfhfhfhfhf.jpg

Mythrill
11-10-2014, 06:12 PM
Who needs Earths again, I removed them again except for the Raw Umber.

It's a matter of practice for people with limited palettes. I seem to get better at it over time. I wonder if anyone with a limited palette of modern pigments is ever able to have the piece of mind and security someone with earths has however. It's not that I'm incapable of making earths, it's more a security factor for most people I think.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2014/1892143-vbnvnvnvnvnvnvnvnvn.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2014/1892143-gfhfhfhfhfhf.jpg

Lobke, one the problems of those colors is that they tend to overpower others. Earth colors, on other hand, are easier to handle.

It's also to work with those mixes as "shadow colors", as Vermeer gracefully used Raw Umber (PBr 7), for instance, to represent soft daylight. Yes, I managed to use Perylene Maroon (PR 179) and Hooker's Green (PO 49 + PB 15) for my underpainting practice, but one color easily overpowers the other, so keeping the balance between them is particularly difficult. In glazing, their higher chroma also means you need even more layers to neutralize the underpainting, and this may quickly make the absorbency of your surface disappear.

Bradicus
11-11-2014, 01:19 AM
... In glazing, their higher chroma also means you need even more layers to neutralize the underpainting, and this may quickly make the absorbency of your surface disappear.
Mythrill, I agree with the first part about more layers, but didnt follow the second. The absorbency?
Thanks,
Brad

Lobke Spain
11-11-2014, 01:48 AM
thought I'd come up with reasons why alla prima ppl extend their palette with earths, and not so much with other colors

I think many ppl do it, I don't think everyone knows why they do it.

explanations I come up with, maybe all wrong, but this is what I think:

-we're sensitive to that color region, it's the skin region, it will look "wrong" faster than other regions

-everyone has a hard time associating browns with oranges, orange is a seperate color than brown for most of us until we start painting, we call brown brown, we don't call it "dark orange" or "dull orange" we don't associate brown with orange yet brown is a dull orange in mixing. We do this only for browns. We call a dull red, a dull red, we call a dull blue, dull blue. But a dull orange is brown, for whatever reason, we see 2 difference hues in them.

-yellows and oranges are very high value out of the tube, so the road down to darker (and desaturated) color is much longer and more dangerous than other colors, with modern bright organics, this is even more difficult to travel since those organics are even farther away from dark and dull colors

-the hue shift, there is a large amount of hue shift to green in the yellow - orange region when you add black or blue (even violet doesn't work as a complement for yellow)

Mythrill
11-11-2014, 05:33 AM
Mythrill, I agree with the first part about more layers, but didnt follow the second. The absorbency?
Thanks,
Brad

Hi, Brad!

Every time you add a layer to your painting, the surface will take more paint (absorb). If you add more paint than what the surface can take, it will stop taking up colors.

When you work with layers of extremely bright pigments, you are more likely to add more layers over older, existing layers to deaden underpaintings. This means there will be less space to glaze over these layers to adjust your composition to the correct colors.

Lobke Spain
11-11-2014, 07:41 AM
Now that I'm painting without earths, I miss them again, I am starting to learn why they're so important.

Iron oxide provided me with opacity. Now that I'm trying a more limited palette, I have not the opacity I want, shadows don't want to stick, I have to use a softer brush to get them in the painting. (I don't use cadmiums, so my colors aren't that opaque to begin with). When you make your own earth, you do it with a orangy / yellow / red, and you are forced to make it darker by adding either black or ultramarine of some sort, those tend to be very oily colors, so getting any form of decent opacity is very hard.

And something worse happened, I had a touch of pyrrole orange on the side of my brush left, a tiny touch, and I put down my mixed dark brown, and that tiny spark of bright orange that wasn't thouroughly mixed ended up on the canvas, I lifted it and mixed it in, but those things never happened when I had my earthts. Guess I will ad them again, I'm such an idiot, but learning.

Bradicus
11-11-2014, 02:36 PM
Hi, Brad!

Every time you add a layer to your painting, the surface will take more paint (absorb). If you add more paint than what the surface can take, it will stop taking up colors.

When you work with layers of extremely bright pigments, you are more likely to add more layers over older, existing layers to deaden underpaintings. This means there will be less space to glaze over these layers to adjust your composition to the correct colors.
Mythrill,
I appreciate your responses and trying to follow this train of thought.
Are you saying because thin layers are loaded with a medium so they wont bind after too many.?
Brad

Mythrill
11-11-2014, 02:56 PM
Mythrill,
I appreciate your responses and trying to follow this train of thought.
Are you saying because thin layers are loaded with a medium so they wont bind after too many.?
Brad

Brad, it's not the addition of thin layers loaded with medium that makes the binding difficult. It's the addition of extra layers in general to compensate for the brighter colors of synthetic pigments and correct the color of the object.

Earth pigments – even the brighter ones, such as Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 101) – are much more neutral than synthetic organic pigments, and so, they require fewer layers of color to adjust to the colors you want in the upper layers. If, say, your underpainting is a bright orange made of Quinacridone Burnt Orange (PO 48), and your object is a bright, middle blue, you'll need more layers to correct the color object to blue than if you painted the same object with Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 101). If you have surfaces with lower absorbency, such as drawing paper, the paper might completely lose absorption before you are able to correct color, so this is important!

Of course, this was a very simple example. If your subject is a landscape, or a few animals together, you will have a much harder time adjusting colors on upper layers.

Bradicus
11-11-2014, 03:37 PM
.. If you have surfaces with lower absorbency, such as drawing paper, the paper might completely lose absorption before you are able to correct color, so this is important!
Mythrill, would this be appicable to watercolour?
A paint I have no experience with!
My remarks are in oil. Lol!
Brad

Bradicus
11-11-2014, 03:49 PM
Lobke, I spend a couple hrs Sun mixing greys. ( just one big party here! )
And pr101 TRO and FUB make great neutral.
Also tro and just a touch of fub makes a good burnt umber.
FWI, tro is semitransparent, and of coarse fub is trans, so mix doesnt have that heavy mixing power a opaque does.

My other pitch is yellow ochre. That and a red/ magenta with a touch of blue or green to grey, ( and white ) : you've got more skin than a swimsuit photoshoot.
Im using WH burnt Sienna which is TRO, Grum white and FUB, and MG yellow Ochre which is really standard stuff.

I am impressed with super limited palettes: but in the same way people train to hold their breath 10min. Very interesting...

Brad

Mythrill
11-11-2014, 04:49 PM
Mythrill, would this be appicable to watercolour?
A paint I have no experience with!
My remarks are in oil. Lol!
Brad

Brad, I don't know much about watercolor. I have painted a little with gouache, and, from what I remember, they don't layer up too well.

Watercolors don't crack as gouache does, but each layer of paint will react with the next. This allows for many interesting effects, but you certainly can't add 5 layers of paint in one place by using watercolors alone.

In practice, it means that choosing the right hues in watercolors is even more important: if you start too off from the original color, your painting might be impossible to adjust!

yellow_oxide
11-11-2014, 06:04 PM
In watercolor natural earths can be very important for their granulation. A lot of modern synthetics are very smooth, so although it's possible to neutralize a bright orangish red to mimic a burnt sienna the end result will still be different. The process of neutralizing can also affect the transparency, depending on the paints used, which is important in watercolor.

Because of large drying shifts (lightening and losing chroma) in watercolor, some pigments more affected than others, it's also more difficult to know what a paint will look like once dry while it's still on your palette, which can make mixing more difficult.

It may just be my impression, but it seems to me that watercolorists often use more more paints because each pigment may have a larger number of properties that make them more unique from each other than in oil paint.

Bradicus
11-11-2014, 11:01 PM
Ok Mythrill, one more dance please!
I thought you were refering to watercolour only because I cant relate what you are discribing. So I apoligise for being thick.
I dont do watercolour, although very lovely.

Are you saying, and I exagerate to make the point, that if I were to put 25 layers of paint on a primed canvas: the paint could would begin to suffer adheasion because there would be too much oil, and no where for it to go after the lower levels are saturated?

Last go and then I'll accept my place in line...

Brad

Mythrill
11-12-2014, 07:47 AM
Ok Mythrill, one more dance please!
I thought you were refering to watercolour only because I cant relate what you are discribing. So I apoligise for being thick.
I dont do watercolour, although very lovely.

Are you saying, and I exagerate to make the point, that if I were to put 25 layers of paint on a primed canvas: the paint could would begin to suffer adheasion because there would be too much oil, and no where for it to go after the lower levels are saturated?
Brad

Hi, Brad!

How exactly the medium behaves when it can't adhere to the canvas is slightly different for different mediums.

For comparison's sake, in acrylics, if you add more layers than what the surface can handle, the lower layers simply won't absorb the paint anymore. In oils, you might manage to layer more than what the surface can handle, but the extra layers might become very fragile, crack, and fall off.

Finally, layering with watercolors will be very difficult – if you even manage to, since lower layers will react with water. Certainly, when using just regular watercolors, you can't build a complete, monochromatic layer of yellow for a bright, red object. You have to use a more direct approach.

By the way...


It may just be my impression, but it seems to me that watercolorists often use more more paints because each pigment may have a larger number of properties that make them more unique from each other than in oil paint.


That's true. And, if you work thinly with acrylics, you can also see many of those properties – including the granulation of some pigments, like Ultramarine Blue (PB 29). The granuation, how the pigment lifts out of the paper, etc, is all important.

I believe someone here in Wetcanvas mentioned this book, but I don't remember who. It's Acrylics: the Watercolor Alternative. You can see a good preview of the book here: http://www.amazon.com/Acrylics-Watercolor-Alternative-Charles-Harrington/dp/1581805861/ref=cm_wl_huc_item

By using a completely different technique, you can make them look really close to watercolors, taking advantage of granulating pigments vs. non-granulating, staining vs. non-staining, etc.

I prefer to paint more opaquely, but I might also take a look into that in the future. It's really interesting. :)

WFMartin
11-12-2014, 04:05 PM
Recently, I've been on a "mission" in terms of oil paint. I am trying to use up some of my more obscure paints that I've either bought during a "weak moment", or have had given to me by someone who gave up painting.

In using these less desirable paints, I have actually discovered a few colors that I am beginning to prefer over some that I've been using routinely.

A couple of good examples are Grumbacher's Viridian, which I previously had thought to be quite useless, and an old version of Bill Alexander's VanDyke Brown.

Viridian, while an atrocious "Green", has actually proved to be a handy mixing color. As long as I don't use it as a "green", and only use it as an ingredient to mix greens, it performs wonderfully.

I am enjoying the large tube of Bill Alexander's VanDyke Brown, although it has a terribly weak tinting strength. VanDyke Brown is a much more neutral brown (if there is such a thing) than the umbers, and I'm finding it to be very useful for mixing off-grays--especially useful for such things as tree trunks, rocks, etc.

Once I use up that rather inferior tube of VanDyke Brown, I will probably buy more of that color, but by a different manufacturer.

It is interesting how one can become accustomed to using certain colors, once you discover an appropriate use for them. Being a color theorist, I can usually mix a given color from any of many different "ingredient colors". For me, it is convenient to use specific "ingredient colors", because of their unique contribution ratio of the primary colors, Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. For certain purposes, some color choices merely function better than other color choices.:)

Quinacridone Gold
11-12-2014, 04:39 PM
I think there's a big choice about whether you want to spend more time mixing or more time painting. I understand exactly where my 'earth' colours fit in with my other colours so if I choose to work with a basic palette of, say Ultra, crimson and a warm yellow, I know that I can also use Burnt Sienna, green gold, undersea green and a whole host of convenience colours that I could make out of the original three. I choose to have a larger palette (of watercolours) that includes convenient mixtures and earth colours but am careful about which I use together in any one painting.

I have one palette set up with just 6 bright colours and no earths just for fun - it is well balanced with a yellow, orange, crimson, purple, ultra and phthalo green each chosen to perfectly neutralise eachother to create earth hues, blacks etc. It's fun but so much more time consuming to paint with it.

As said by others, though, watercolour is special :-) - you can work with not only the hue but also the characteristics of the pigment, which show so much on the paper. In oils or acrylics I work with a much more limited palette.

Mythrill
11-12-2014, 06:03 PM
Recently, I've been on a "mission" in terms of oil paint. I am trying to use up some of my more obscure paints that I've either bought during a "weak moment", or have had given to me by someone who gave up painting.

In using these less desirable paints, I have actually discovered a few colors that I am beginning to prefer over some that I've been using routinely.

A couple of good examples are Grumbacher's Viridian, which I previously had thought to be quite useless, and an old version of Bill Alexander's VanDyke Brown.

Viridian, while an atrocious "Green", has actually proved to be a handy mixing color. As long as I don't use it as a "green", and only use it as an ingredient to mix greens, it performs wonderfully.

I am enjoying the large tube of Bill Alexander's VanDyke Brown, although it has a terribly weak tinting strength. VanDyke Brown is a much more neutral brown (if there is such a thing) than the umbers, and I'm finding it to be very useful for mixing off-grays--especially useful for such things as tree trunks, rocks, etc.

Once I use up that rather inferior tube of VanDyke Brown, I will probably buy more of that color, but by a different manufacturer.

It is interesting how one can become accustomed to using certain colors, once you discover an appropriate use for them. Being a color theorist, I can usually mix a given color from any of many different "ingredient colors". For me, it is convenient to use specific "ingredient colors", because of their unique contribution ratio of the primary colors, Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow. For certain purposes, some color choices merely function better than other color choices.:)

Hi, Bill!

I would love to try Viridian (PG 18) too. People talk a lot about it! How do you think it compares to Phthalo Green Blue Shade (PG 7) in practice?

Bradicus
11-12-2014, 08:09 PM
Mythrill, thanks for the info. I am still not getting the 'why'.
But I will do some research into adhesion issue from multible layers of oil paint. Thanks again.

As to Viridain:
I dont use it a ton, but like Cerulean, I could live without, but super useful as a mixer, particularly skin tones.
I spend quite a bit of time pre-mixing, especially on large painting.
So worth it to me.

Cheers, Brad

Gigalot
11-13-2014, 05:51 AM
Having PG7 you can live without Viridian in all purpose mixtures in which PG7 is more clean and stronger.
Now I have two small tubes of it and I am not sure how to use this Viridian. However, It can be used for glaze. Unfortunately, I have two gorgeous color for this purpose. One is transparent Cobalt Green Deep PG19 which is close to PG18 and can be used instead with great success.
The second rival is Volkonskoite PG23 and, probably, also my Glaukonite PG23. Moreover, I don't speak about PG8...
So, my poor Viridian paint has a lot of competitors! :D I have Cobalt Green light, Cobalt Green light bluish, Cobalt-Chromium blue-green, Chromium Oxide Green, Cobalt Green deep imitation PG7+PY42. Viridian just sink there!

llawrence
11-13-2014, 01:19 PM
I agree with what's been said about viridian. I don't think it's a particularly attractive color on its own, but it does have good transparency for glazing - and its big advantage over phthalocyanine greens is its weak tinting strength, which makes it much easier and more pleasant for mixing. I once had to use phthalos for skin tones in a classroom setting, and I think I spent about half the class time fighting mixes on the palette. Senseless! Viridian and cerulean would have been a more logical choice.

Bradicus
11-13-2014, 03:12 PM
I agree with what's been said about viridian. I don't think it's a particularly attractive color on its own, but it does have good transparency for glazing - and its big advantage over phthalocyanine greens is its weak tinting strength, which makes it much easier and more pleasant for mixing. I once had to use phthalos for skin tones in a classroom setting, and I think I spent about half the class time fighting mixes on the palette. Senseless! Viridian and cerulean would have been a more logical choice.
I agree.
The phthalos make mixing almost unpeasant. It wastes so much paint that is ruined, the portions are so small that fine control is hard to achieve.
And you cant paint with partial mixed paint which gives great variations.
You get this blue(or green) streak that is completely out of harmony with everything and must be removed.
Cant mix in on canvas witout a hugh colour shift.
Seems almost 'brassy' in mixes until completely mixed in.

That said, many use phthalos to amazing results, and my hat off to them. It is a most cost effective paint for sure aswell! I have and have used blue and gn phthalos, so they are there if wanted for something.

But for me, there is a 'je ne sais quoi' to mixing with colours that seem be working with you. The tints, hints and shades of a easy blender.
Adds to the painting experience overall, IMO.
Cheers,
Brad

Lobke Spain
11-14-2014, 12:39 AM
I once had to use phthalos for skin tones in a classroom setting, and I think I spent about half the class time fighting mixes on the palette. Senseless!
It is what so many advocate though, extremely limited palettes of often 3 colors with modern organics. I think this type of thinking will result in much frustration for new painters because limited palettes work far less well with modern pigments than they did centuries ago with dull pigments.

People say old painters used it. Well, not many did, and the ones that did like the "Zorn palette", had many tubes of paint in his studio and art historians found many more than 3 pigments in his paintings. His limitted palette was not so limited in reality.

Another thing is. They didn't paint with phthalos back then. Painting with 3 earths is a million times easier than trying to use a phthalo as a complement to yellow, which is super hard.

Not only do those beginners often not use Earths, they also don't use cadmiums, but modern yellows with low tinting strength. I use modern organic yellow, but I don't use a 3 color palette.

And to top it all off, many don't use a knife, nor do they use black.

Using modern organics, like Hanza / Quinacridone / PHthalo blue, and trying to get an accurate mix with a brush, is just a ticking time bomb for beginners until they give up. Sadly this is often recommended, not just as practice, as practice it would be fine, but it it recommended as a usable palette, which makes no sense to me.

People sometimes call earths or more than 3 colors, convenience colors. Half truth I feel. While it is true it is convenient, the other part of the truth is that it gives us more accurate mixing. Setting off the beginner on the wrong foot and not telling those people that a limited palette of colors that differ greatly in tinting strength (modern yellow VS modern phthalo), without giving them access to black or earths, is an extremely difficult type of palette to control, is setting them up for failure.

Lobke Spain
11-14-2014, 01:00 AM
many use phthalos to amazing results, and my hat off to them. It is a most cost effective paint for sure aswell! I have and have used blue and gn phthalos, so they are there if wanted for something.
Love phthalo colors, but massive difference in the way they are used I feel personally. Phthalo used as a base for blue or green is not hard. Phthalo used as a complementary for yellow like they teach some beginners, forcing them to use extremely limited palettes...is asking for frustration and failure, yet it is done often. Even paint makers often recommend it, which makes very little sense to me, they would want people to keep painting and buying tubes I think? Why not help them along in a better way.

Reaperc89
11-18-2014, 12:00 PM
T/Z mixed white of varying brands (Utrecht, Permalba, Grumbacher Soft)
Flake white alternative (Gamblin)
Ivory Black (Utrecht)
Quinacridone Violet (L&B Ruby Red)
Cadmium Red Light Hue (Utrecht)
Yellow Ochre (L&B)
Cadmium Yellow Hue (Utrecht)
Prussian Blue (M Graham)
Brilliant Blue (Utrecht)

I have other paints, but they almost always sit in the box unless I feel like living dangerously that day. I've developed a bit of an obsession with the Quinacridone Violet.

Also, it depends on the stage of the painting. My paintings start with a grisaille layer, so that phase is just two colors. Black, and White.

Bradicus
11-21-2014, 02:34 AM
Love phthalo colors, but massive difference in the way they are used I feel personally. Phthalo used as a base for blue or green is not hard. Phthalo used as a complementary for yellow like they teach some beginners, forcing them to use extremely limited palettes...is asking for frustration and failure, yet it is done often. Even paint makers often recommend it, which makes very little sense to me, they would want people to keep painting and buying tubes I think? Why not help them along in a better way.
I agree Lobke. As a complement...interesting experience for a beginner.
Dont mind using a phthalo, but I would prefer to use other pigments.
Just so many great choices, dont really need them.

Like anything, they would get easier with more use.

Cheers,
Brad

Sketchee
12-01-2014, 06:25 PM
Every time I try to get past six colors, I have to go back and do a lot of work to unify the colors at the end. I usually stick to the primaries, a brown, white, and just add in a premixed secondary color if I'm feeling too lazy or unable to get a specific effect/color without it. Like those just mentioned with Pthalo colors. Even if the color mixes end up a little muted, that can be helpful to keep things too crazy. I love hearing all of the thoughts on color!

Hilvar
12-01-2014, 09:07 PM
My palette musts are:

Titaniun white (I like Wbg for it's handling)
Cad Yellow med or light (Wbg or Harding)
Cad red med or light, or a similar hued Pyrrol (Wbg, Kama or W&N)
UM blue (Wbg and Old Holland deep right now but W&N FUM is also good stuff)

Always at hand- Cerulean blue (Always used W&N, but found Kama works better for me) Sometimes use Cobalt blue.
Anthraquinone red or Quin magenta
Cad orange mostly for convenient greys
Transparent Red Oxide

When I want to have more fun I push around big lashings of Winton paints which I have in 200L tubes- can do some very effective things with some of these actually- lots of fun without the expense :)

Hilvar
12-02-2014, 12:07 AM
Oops, indeed my '200L' tubes of Winton are very hard to squeeze! Actually I missed a yellow ochre on there as an occasional paint as well. I have always mixed my greens, but I have gone with pthalo green or the blue for those otherwise impossible electric hues- quite rarely however.

Grunge
12-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Bill.... why is it that I hang on your every word... and take notes on just about everything you say.. and have been doing so for a really long time. LOL

Thanks!!!!


I teach an oil painting class at a local recreation center. Through the years, I have tried to reduce my recommended palette of colors, merely to save my students some expense when buying paints for my class.

I've discovered that most landscapes (which is the subjects we paint in my class) can be created with only about 6 colors, including Black and White. This is my palette for every landscape you'll ever want to paint:

Ivory Black
Ultramarine Blue
Burnt Umber
Cadmium Red
Cadmium Yellow Light
Titanium White.

I can't imagine a landscape (and most still-lifes) that I could not create by using those colors. I use M. Graham Oil Paints.

With 10 colors, I could paint nearly any subject you'd want!

Festus
12-10-2014, 09:33 AM
I thought I'd ask how many different colors you use in your palette. This includes black and white. You can detail below why you pick that amount, or you can just vote without a comment also.

For a variety of reasons both due to my early on cluelessness about color theory in general and because I inherited two different batches of oil colors from two different relatives (one of whom simply ceased painting and the other, alas, died) I have a quite large treasure trove of color that I will probably never get around to using.

But that said in reality I use (including white and once in a blue moon, black) about ten values as my work horse palette, but in reality almost always end up using -- as a landscape painter -- only the following (ordered in frequency of use from most to least:

Titanium White, Sap Green, Dioxazine Purple, Burnt Sienna, Ultramarine Blue, Cadmium Yellow Light at almost every session.

Less often I use Cadmium Red Light, Cadmium Orange, Winsor Yellow and Phthalocyanine (thalo) Yellow Green.

Then even less often than those I use Burnt Umber, Ivory Black, and Alizarine Crimson.

So that's twelve in total but mostly just between six and ten depending on specific effects I'm going for.

Gigalot
12-10-2014, 11:18 AM
For a variety of reasons both due to my early on cluelessness about color theory.... I will probably never get around to using.
...Dioxazine Purple
Dioxazine violet color lays outside of "color theory" rules. According color mixing theories, you must mix your purple using Ultramarine Blue + Alizarin crimson paints. Or, at least, Cadmium Red light + Ultramarine Blue. Using Dioxazine violet, you are breaking the symmetry of RYB or, even, CMYK paint mixing theory! :D

Festus
12-10-2014, 09:52 PM
Dioxazine violet color lays outside of "color theory" rules. According color mixing theories, you must mix your purple using Ultramarine Blue + Alizarin crimson paints. Or, at least, Cadmium Red light + Ultramarine Blue. Using Dioxazine violet, you are breaking the symmetry of RYB or, even, CMYK paint mixing theory! :D

To be honest with you, I am not entirely surprised. I rather thought it was a violation of the paint mixing theory, but my instructor's lesson plans all include a significant use of Dioxazine Purple and I have committed to following his program. I think that as long as I don't lose sight of the fact that it's a violation of the theory then it won't skew my progress too much. I don't know why he saw fit to go outside the RYB color wheel on that one color but he did.

Hmmmm . . . actually I think it was because since he never uses black it's his way of getting some of his dark mixes as dark as he wants them without going too blue or too red. But I'm just speculating.

Mythrill
12-11-2014, 07:21 PM
Hmmmm . . . actually I think it was because since he never uses black it's his way of getting some of his dark mixes as dark as he wants them without going too blue or too red. But I'm just speculating.
You're actually correct. People who are influenced by an impressionist approach when painting light (i.e, not using black to describe darkness) often use Dioxazine Purple (PV 23) as their black instead. I just would like to add that, if you like glazing, you can use black as a color to describe darkness. All you need is to create a monochrome layer of the forms you want, and paint transparently and with tints. Voilá! You'll have a warm painting while still using black!

Gigalot
12-12-2014, 06:29 AM
http://www.susansarback.com/paintings.html
She always recommended to use Dioxazine Violet as one of the most important color on palette.

opainter
12-12-2014, 09:50 PM
http://www.susansarback.com/paintings.html
She always recommended to use Dioxazine Violet as one of the most important color on palette.

I recall this as well. You can certainly see how she uses violet for her shadows in the three paintings she shows on the main page of her website.