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SamL
10-26-2014, 02:48 PM
Hi everyone, I just joined WetCanvas.
Firstly, I want to say hello to everyone.
Secondly, I want to ask a couple of questions.
I use Holbein Duo Aqua water-soluble oil colors. I try to avoid solvents and toxic pigments. So, for yellow, I bought Holbein Cadmium Yellow Light Hue. Holbein Cadmium Yellow Light Hue consists of PY74—Hansa Yellow, PY83—Diarylide Yellow 83, and PW6—Titanium White. I assume all 3 ingredients are non-toxic. Is my assumption correct?

After I started using it, I found that Cadmium Yellow Light Hue is NOT OPAQUE.
So, here is my question:
What is a yellow that meets the following 4 requirements?
1) non-toxic
2) water-soluble (This is a want, not a must. If I cannot find a yellow that meets all 4 requirements, I will drop this one.)
3) bright yellow (high chroma, not earthy, not pale, not too orange, not too green)
4) opaque

Holbein does not have much information on its Web site. So, I did some search on Gamblin’s yellow page, and found some information on all its yellows. I did not see anything that meets all 4 requirements:
Cadmium Yellow – a bright yellow, opaque, but toxic
Indian Yellow – not opaque
Nickel Titanate Yellow – not a bright yellow (muted)
Naples Yellow – not a bright yellow (earthy)
Hansa Yellow – a bright yellow, but not opaque
Yellow Ochre – not a bright yellow (earthy)

So, I guess I am looking for a yellow that performs identically with Cadmium Yellow, only minus the toxicity.

Does such yellow exist?

Mythrill
10-26-2014, 02:54 PM
If you are worried about toxicity, there are insoluble cadmiums on the market. They make any absorption difficult or impossible. Winsor & Newton sells those.

In addition to that, you can also buy cadmium-barium yellows. They have less tinting power, but the barium there limits absorption even further.

If you still don't want to try cadmiums, I suggest Hansa Yellow Opaque (PY 74), or Bismuth Yellow (PY 184).

Bismuth Yellow has all the qualities of cadmiums, and it doesn't fade when exposed to moisture. It's also as opaque as a cadmium. It does have a drawback, however: it's expensive.

SamL
10-26-2014, 05:21 PM
Which brands offer Hansa Yellow Opaque oil paint?

Mythrill
10-26-2014, 06:14 PM
Which brands offer Hansa Yellow Opaque oil paint?

I only know for sure of one brand in acrylics: Golden. It's possible that other oil brands have an opaque PY74, but none comes to my mind.

If you are interested in Bismuth Yellow, one brand I recommend is Daniel Smith: http://www.danielsmith.com/Item--i-284-300-114. It's $15.89 for a 37ml, but they're selling everything on their site for 20% off.

I have their acrylics, and they have a pretty high load!

SamL
10-26-2014, 06:52 PM
Bismuth is somewhat toxic.
GOLDEN only makes acrylics.
It seems Hansa Yellow Opaque meets all the requirements: non-toxic, bright yellow, and opaque.
So, if someone knows some brands that offer Hansa Yellow Opaque oil paint, please let me know.

WFMartin
10-26-2014, 10:34 PM
Gosh, just purchase some Winsor & Newton Transparent Yellow (PY128), and mix some Titanium White with it. That will create a color about as close as you can get to the appearance of anybody's Cadmium Yellow Light.

And, as an added advantage, the transparent color will easily mix with other, transparent colors, to create the most deep, dark colors you ever could desire. The light, Cadmium colors can't do that, because their opacity is based upon added reflectance. In other words, opaque yellows behave as though someone had mixed white with them; they don't mix to create "darks" very well. Transparent colors do!

You can always add White paint to a transparent color to create exceedingly bright, high-chroma (saturated, intense, pure) colors that are every bit as good as Cadmium colors, and often times, actually better!

SamL
10-27-2014, 03:23 AM
OK. I will do a side-by-side comparison between (transparent hansa yellow + titanium white) and (cadmium yellow), and see if they have similar saturation.

Gosh, just purchase some Winsor & Newton Transparent Yellow (PY128), and mix some Titanium White with it. That will create a color about as close as you can get to the appearance of anybody's Cadmium Yellow Light.
You can always add White paint to a transparent color to create exceedingly bright, high-chroma (saturated, intense, pure) colors that are every bit as good as Cadmium colors, and often times, actually better!

But, does adding white reduce saturation?

Just imagine the following string:

100% yellow
75% yellow + 25% white
50% yellow + 50% white
25% yellow + 75% white
100% white

The level of saturation goes from full to zero. Does that imply that even a small amount of white will make the mixture slightly less saturated than pure yellow?

Mythrill
10-27-2014, 12:00 PM
OK. I will do a side-by-side comparison between (transparent hansa yellow + titanium white) and (cadmium yellow), and see if they have similar saturation.



But, does adding white reduce saturation?

Just imagine the following string:

100% yellow
75% yellow + 25% white
50% yellow + 50% white
25% yellow + 75% white
100% white

The level of saturation goes from full to zero. Does that imply that even a small amount of white will make the mixture slightly less saturated than pure yellow?
Hi, Sam.

Unfortunately, you don't have too many options of opaque, non-toxic and water-soluble yellows. Bismuth would be the one that best fits all these requirements. Toxicity exists, but it is very low.

Even if you find out Hansa Yellow Opaque (PY 74) in oils and stick to it, you still will be limited to a very small color range. In the case of Hansa Yellow Opaque, a middle, bright yellow.

Another option would be Transparent Yellow Iron Oxide (PY 42), which can be quite bright. However, you would be limited to earth colors and mixes.

Another option would be making your own colors and storing them in tubes. By using some beeswax and around 80% pigment and 20% linseed oil, you can make very transparent colors, like Bill's (WFMartin) PY 128, look as if they are opaque to their sheer pigment load.

Of course, even inhaling the dust of these non-toxic pigments can be harmful, so you should wear a respirator and latex gloves to prevent pigment absorption through the skin.

arnoud3272
10-27-2014, 01:01 PM
.....

But, does adding white reduce saturation?
......
The level of saturation goes from full to zero. Does that imply that even a small amount of white will make the mixture slightly less saturated than pure yellow?
Mixing a dark transparent colourant paint with increasing amounts of white paint increases the chroma of the mixture up to a certain point, beyond which the chroma diminishes

(quote from The Dimensions of Colour (http://www.huevaluechroma.com/063.php) by David Briggs)

:wave:

WFMartin
10-27-2014, 01:02 PM
But, does adding white reduce saturation?

No, ....to the contrary. Adding white to a transparent color such as PY128 actually increases its saturation up to a point.

Of course, when one adds enough of another paint (such as white) to a color, one eventually reaches a point at which the mixture contains more white than color, obviously. Since white represents total neutrality, the addition of that quantity of white will certainly reduce saturation.

However, when beginning with a transparent color, the addition of white serves to increase the saturation up to a point, and from that point of maximum saturation, the saturation then begins to decrease. But this is true of any color: Add enough white and it will eventually become white.:D

Just add some white to Transparent Yellow, and compare the mixture to a Cadmium Yellow Light. Decide for yourself whether the saturation has, indeed, been compromised.

Crystal1
10-27-2014, 11:08 PM
Unfortunately, the only Transparent Yellow (PY128) in water mixable oil is by Cobra, and the pigment level has been greatly reduced compared to Winsor Newton or Rembrant PY 128. I don't know if it will work or not. Sure hope it does, since I've been looking at that color a lot and haven't been able to decide whether to buy it or not.

SamL
10-28-2014, 01:44 AM
WFMartin and arnoud3272,
Thanks for the explanation. Now I know that adding white may initially increase saturation.

Now I have Holbein Cad Yellow Light Hue. Its pigments are
PY74—Hansa Yellow
PY170—Diarylide Yellow 170
PW6—Titanium White

So, white is already in this paint. It is still not opaque. I will try to gradually add more white, to see if I can achieve opacity before saturation starts to decrease.

The yellows in nature that move me include masses of Yellow Buttercup Oxalis Flowers. If they are far, they appear as a continuous mass. If they are near, they appear discrete. It is impossible to paint a green meadow and leave thousands of holes for the yellow flowers to be filled in. So I painted the green meadow first, and put the yellow flowers on top of the green. With the Holbein Cad Yellow Light Hue, the green underneath shows through the yellow flowers, so the flowers did not have the saturation as seen in the nature. I did try to add white to make it opaque. But the flowers looked pale and did not look like Yellow Buttercup any more. Maybe I added too much white.

WFMartin, with your "Winsor & Newton Transparent Yellow (PY128) + Titanium White" recipe, were you able to reach the opacity to cover whatever underneath, and to reach the saturation level such as canola oilseed field, Midas Touch rose, or Yellow Buttercup?

Gigalot
10-28-2014, 06:44 AM
You can take real, artist's grade, bona fide Titanium White, which is designed to be "Titanium White" and not a substitute for Cremnitz White! Then, try to paint flowers on the meadow with it. Real Titanium White is opaque enough. Wait until it become dried and apply glaze of transparent or semitransparent yellow paint on top of this titanium white.