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View Full Version : Has anybody tried Golden's Cerulean Blue Deep?


Bastet469
09-23-2014, 07:29 AM
Hi all,

My local art store is running a sale on Golden Fluid Acrylics. They only stock one of the two Ceruleans available; Cerulean Blue Deep (PB 36). It seems darker & greener than Golden's standard Cerulean Blue Chromium (PB36:1) I normally buy. When I go to a deeply discounted sale, I typically buy at least one experimental color. I'm trying to decide if Cerulean Blue Deep should be one.

So I was wondering if anyone has tried using it in place of their regular Cerulean and what were the results? Is the difference in color that significant? Let me know. Thanks 😊

-Wendy

Mythrill
09-23-2014, 06:58 PM
Hi all,

My local art store is running a sale on Golden Fluid Acrylics. They only stock one of the two Ceruleans available; Cerulean Blue Deep (PB 36). It seems darker & greener than Golden's standard Cerulean Blue Chromium (PB36:1) I normally buy. When I go to a deeply discounted sale, I typically buy at least one experimental color. I'm trying to decide if Cerulean Blue Deep should be one.

So I was wondering if anyone has tried using it in place of their regular Cerulean and what were the results? Is the difference in color that significant? Let me know. Thanks 😊

-Wendy

Hi, Wendy!

Golden only has Ceruleum Blue Chromium (PB 36), which is already a bit greener and more intense than traditional Ceruleum Blue (PB 35).

I suppose the "deep" shade was made to be similar to Cobalt Blue (PB 28), but slightly less intense.

It should be a nice color to have, if you want to experiment!

Patrick1
09-24-2014, 06:47 AM
I don't know if they still make it...this sample is from a Golden Heavy Body chart that is about 13 years old.

The number in the box is the transparency (1 is most opaque...8 is most transparent) and the other number is the price series (1 being cheapest, 9 being most expensive). You can see the 'Deep' is darker, greener, and perhaps a bit less chromatic than the regular Cerulean.

Mythrill
09-24-2014, 07:10 AM
I don't know if they still make it...this sample is from a Golden Heavy Body chart that is about 13 years old.

The number in the box is the transparency (1 is most opaque...8 is most transparent) and the other number is the price series (1 being cheapest, 9 being most expensive). You can see the 'Deep' is darker, greener, and perhaps a bit less chromatic than the regular Cerulean.
Hi, Patrick!

This color seems different from what Golden sells now. Here's the dickblick swatch for their "Cerulean Blue Deep" (link: http://www.dickblick.com/items/00620-5163/#colorswatch), and here is the swatch:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2014/96427-00620_CeruleanBlueDeep1-l.jpg

The "Ceruleum Blue Deep" you have there is similar to their current "Cobalt Turquoise" (link: http://www.dickblick.com/items/00620-5373/#colorswatch). Both their colors are made from PB36:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2014/96427-00620_CobaltTurquoise-l.jpg

shadoj
09-24-2014, 03:37 PM
I have the Golden Cerulean Blue Deep PB36 along with Liquitex Cobalt Turquoise PB36; both are heavy body. The swatches I scanned in appear very close to the true hues.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Sep-2014/1901074-pb0036.jpg

I have Golden's QoR Cerulean Blue Chromium (PB36:1) in watercolors; it is bluer than my Golden Cerulean Blue Deep PB36 in acrylics. I also have a Liquitex Cerulean Blue Hue acrylics tube, which is a pigment mix -- and also bluer than the Golden Cerulean Blue Deep PB36.

PB36 Cerulean Blue Deep is a lovely color in its own right, but I'd find a standard cerulean or chromium cerulean more useful if working with a limited / primary triad palette.

Patrick1
09-24-2014, 08:47 PM
Hi Mythrill,
That Dick Blick 'Ceulean Blue Deep' swatch looks like 'regular' Cerulean! (which Golden calls Cerulean Blue Chromium). Thanks Jen for the samples.

opainter
09-25-2014, 12:04 AM
I was considering getting either Golden's Cerulean Blue Chromium or Golden's Cerulean Blue Deep, but I chose to get the C.B. Chromium because the difference between the two seemed to be minimal, and it appeared to me that I could get the same color as C.B. Deep by mixing a very small amount of Cadmium Yellow Light (PY35) (which is my primary yellow) with C.B. Chromium. I don't see how you can go in the opposite direction (from C.B. Deep to color of C.B. Chromium), so if you get the C.B. Chromium, you will have a (slightly) larger possible mixing range.

Patrick1
09-25-2014, 02:15 AM
Here are all 7 Cobalt colors from my old Heavy Body chart all in one place for comparison. On my monitor, the Dick Blick samples look too blueish, bright, and chromatic...which I think is the cause of the ambiguity. As always, there is no substitute for seeing a real paint sample in front of you, under natural daylight.

AJ, I suspect you're right that you could mimic the 'Deep' version by mixing 'Chomium' + Cadmium Yellow, but it would be much harder or impossible to mimic the Chromium by mixing something into the Deep.

Mythrill
09-25-2014, 10:29 AM
Here are all 7 Cobalt colors from my old Heavy Body chart all in one place for comparison. On my monitor, the Dick Blick samples look too blueish, bright, and chromatic...which I think is the cause of the ambiguity. As always, there is no substitute for seeing a real paint sample in front of you, under natural daylight.


That is true, Patrick. Sorry for the confusion here.

opainter
09-26-2014, 01:30 AM
Golden replaced Cobalt Titanate Green with Titan Green Pale because they ran out of pigment for Cobalt Titanate Green. Titan Green Pale is now available only in their OPEN Acrylics line. It's a shame, really, because Cobalt Titanate Green is a unique color.

Patrick1
09-26-2014, 02:42 AM
Mythrill, no probs. I suppose it's possible that the Blick samples might look more accurate on some displays...and mine less so. On my monitor, my samples look accurate in terms of hue, but a bit greyer than real life. But I chose to post them without any Photoshop color modification...because if I tweak the colors to look more 'just right' on my display, it might make it more 'off' on other people's displays.

AJ, it's too bad the Cobalt Titanate Green is no longer available. I don't use Open, so the Titan Green Pale replacement is not an option for me. I was thinking about getting the Cobalt Titanate Green...as it wasn't as expensive as the other cobalt colors, and I like the light, somewhat pastel look...my colors usually end up too dark and heavy so this would be a useful color to have. But if they do eventually offer the Titan Green Pale in their Heavy Body acrylics I will give it a try.

Gigalot
09-26-2014, 06:02 AM
Mythrill, no probs. I suppose it's possible that the Blick samples might look more accurate on some displays...and mine less so. On my monitor, my samples look accurate in terms of hue, but a bit greyer than real life. But I chose to post them without any Photoshop color modification...because if I tweak the colors to look more 'just right' on my display, it might make it more 'off' on other people's displays.

AJ, it's too bad the Cobalt Titanate Green is no longer available. I don't use Open, so the Titan Green Pale replacement is not an option for me. I was thinking about getting the Cobalt Titanate Green...as it wasn't as expensive as the other cobalt colors, and I like the light, somewhat pastel look...my colors usually end up too dark and heavy so this would be a useful color to have. But if they do eventually offer the Titan Green Pale in their Heavy Body acrylics I will give it a try.

Pigment manufacturer discontinued Cobalt Titanate PG50 production. Therefore, Golden replaced it with actual pigments. It is sad to hear that PG50 now is not available for artistic use.
PY153, bright tranasparent indian yellow color, nickel dioxine yellow pigment is also discontinued.
"In 2012 the popular pigment PY153 Nickel Dioxine Yellow was discontinued, no doubt because of lack of demand from the chemical and/or auto industries. As has been pointed out previously makers of watercolour or other types of paint are very much at the bottom of the pile and have to take whatever is available. Although not offered by a huge number of paint makers PY153 was the pigment used by both Winsor & Newton and Daniel Smith for the popular New Gamboge paints. Both have already reformulated with a multi pigment mix. In addition Rowney and one or two others called it `Indian Yellow, supposedly a replacement for the notorious original Indian Yellow. Why notorious? It has been said, and repeated many time, that this paint was made in a vile process by feeding cows in India with certain types of leaves, that turned their urine yellow, and this was the foundation of the paint. Although this story has been repeated many times I, in my capacity as a (very) amateur historian, researched the story and discovered that it might all be nonsense with no real basis in fact. "

Mythrill
09-26-2014, 06:35 AM
Pigment manufacturer discontinued Cobalt Titanate PG50 production. Therefore, Golden replaced it with actual pigments. It is sad to hear that PG50 now is not available for artistic use.
PY153, bright tranasparent indian yellow color, nickel dioxine yellow pigment is also discontinued.


Hi, Giga!

I'd like to point out that the teal shade (blue-green) of PG 50, usually called "Cobalt Teal Blue" or "Cobalt Turquoise", is still widely available. Some paint suppliers stopped selling it because it's much harder to stabilize than traditional pigments notably more so in acrylics. Cobalt are natural driers, and the last thing you want to see dry in a tube.

Here it is at "Sinopia pigments". It costs $90.00 for 500g. It's sold as "Cobalt Aquamarine":
http://www.sinopia.com/SCKB211-Cobalt-Aquamarine_p_206. (http://www.sinopia.com/SCKB211-Cobalt-Aquamarine_p_206.html)

"Cobalt Green" is also still sold. It's not as light as the shade that Golden offered, but still a good option.

http://www.sinopia.com/SCSG223-Cobalt-Green_p_60.html

You can also buy smaller quantities of those pigments. If you want to make a paint tube just for yourself, 100g probably be just fine.

Just make sure to wear facial protection, as the dust of cobalt pigments can be very poisonous and toxic.

Bastet469
09-30-2014, 04:45 AM
As a woman I'm hate to admit this but...

I noticed that Patrick's PG50 swatch for Cobalt Teal also listed the color's French name Bleu Lagon. Am I the only one who immediately pictured a topless Brooke Sheilds on the beach? :lol: It's sexist right?

In my defense, I was only about 8 yrs old when the movie Blue Lagoon came out. My friend's mother had us tag along with her older sister on a date. Defacto chaperones, lol. Christie's sister and her boyfriend offered to take us in to see B. Lagoon instead of the kid's movie her mom thought we were seeing. We just had to agree not to sit with them and not make any trouble. It was the first time I'd ever seen breasts, not even my own Moms'!! I knew ahead of time the scene was coming, but I was still stunned. Christie had already seen her sisters' so she wasn't phased.

Anyway, what were we talking about? :angel:

Patrick1
09-30-2014, 05:21 PM
I must admit to lusting to try Bleu Lagon (Cobalt Teal) ...but not for that reason :angel: .

Anyone that has tried it in acrylics: does it dry out fast in the tube because of the cobalt content? Good quality, heavy body acrylics dry out on me after about 2 years in the tube. Also, I'm wondering if I could match its bright aqua color with Phthalo Turquoise (single pigment or a mix) + Titanium White.

Gigalot
10-01-2014, 04:04 AM
I must admit to lusting to try Bleu Lagon (Cobalt Teal) ...but not for that reason :angel: .

Anyone that has tried it in acrylics: does it dry out fast in the tube because of the cobalt content? Good quality, heavy body acrylics dry out on me after about 2 years in the tube. Also, I'm wondering if I could match its bright aqua color with Phthalo Turquoise (single pigment or a mix) + Titanium White.

It dries due to a plastic tubes water and moisture permeability or it dries due to cross-linking into acrylic polymer dispersion, catalyzed by Cobalt ions?

Mythrill
10-01-2014, 01:59 PM
I must admit to lusting to try Bleu Lagon (Cobalt Teal) ...but not for that reason :angel: .

Anyone that has tried it in acrylics: does it dry out fast in the tube because of the cobalt content? Good quality, heavy body acrylics dry out on me after about 2 years in the tube. Also, I'm wondering if I could match its bright aqua color with Phthalo Turquoise (single pigment or a mix) + Titanium White.

Hi, Patrick!

Cobalt Teal / Turquoise / Aquamarine (PG 50) is surprisingly high chroma. Yes, it looks whitened out of the tube due to its titanium content, but don't let it fool you!

It's so high in chroma indeed that if you mix it with Lemon Yellow (PY 3), it will look fluorescent!

Phthalo Turquoise can't match this hue, be it a single pigment (usually PB 16) or a convenience mix (usually PB 15:3 + PG 7). You'll rarely need a blue this bright, but if you do, there's just no other pigment that scores this well as "turquoise".

And yes, PG 50 can dry on acrylics precisely because it dries so fast. You need a paint formulation that balances pigment and preservatives well. Liquitex has this color, and regarding tube stability, it is a sure brand.

I also have this color from Daniel Smith. It's beautiful and high saturated. It didn't go bad like Winsor & Newton's version either.

Of course, if none of those paints please you, you can make some for yourself. Just get some acrylic emulsion (for example, Golden's Regular Acrylic gel) and mix it with the pigment. Of course, you should wear a respirator, gloves, and, in the case of cobalt pigments, be careful enough not to dispose of waste in your sink.

If you want to make your own paint, always use gloss gel. This is because matte gel usually has something added to it to reduce the sheen, which reduces pigment load.

karenlee
10-13-2014, 08:35 PM
Just want to add for Patrick that Lascaux makes an acrylic PG 50 Green shade:

http://www.dickblick.com/items/00667-7163/

Patrick1
10-16-2014, 10:59 AM
Thanks Mythrill and Karen...I'm interested in the bright Turquoise/Aqua version of PG50. Will probably try in oils...where drying in the tube is not much of an issue and fast-drying on canvas is a good thing.

Mythrill
10-16-2014, 12:19 PM
Thanks Mythrill and Karen...I'm interested in the bright Turquoise/Aqua version of PG50. Will probably try in oils...where drying in the tube is not much of an issue and fast-drying on canvas is a good thing.
Hi, Patrick!

If you want to PG 50 it in acrylics, there are two brands that I can recommend:

Daniel Smith's Cobalt Teal Blue the one I have. Daniel Smith paints dry more slowly, and my tube of Cobalt Teal Blue hasn't gone bad.
Liquitex Heavy Body's Cobalt Teal Liquitex is known for having tubes that last very, very long. If you are unsure of what to get, try this one.Golden doesn't sell PG 50. If they did, I'd recommend them too.

Edit: oh, I'm sorry. I mentioned these before. Still, it's good emphasizing for those who want to know of a good option, as PG50 is a bit expensive.

Bastet469
10-20-2014, 02:43 AM
Also, I'm wondering if I could match its bright aqua color with Phthalo Turquoise (single pigment or a mix) + Titanium White.

Golden apparently made its Teal color to replace their Cobalt Teal. I thought looking at both might help. Below are Blick swatches of Liquitex's PG50 Cobalt Teal and Golden's dupe Teal. The dupe is a combination of Phthalo Blue (PB15:4), Phthalo Green BS (PG7) and Titanium White (PW6). It's seems like the Cobalt Teal glows more than the dupe does. I read that adding Titanium White can make colors dull. The dupe also seems greener.

Liquitex- Cobalt Teal
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2014/1471998-00617_CobaltTeal-l.jpg

Golden- Teal
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2014/1471998-00620_Teal-l.jpg

Patrick1
10-20-2014, 07:31 PM
Bastet,
Thanks for posting the comparison...this is useful to me...I never got around to making a side-by-side comparison yet (either real samples or from the Dick Blick swatches). It shows that indeed as Mythrill said earlier, Cobalt Teal PG50 can't quite be matched in chroma even by PB15 Green Shade + PG 7.

Bastet469
10-22-2014, 03:20 AM
Patrick,

People talk about how good Zinc White is for mixing without altering the color as much as Titanium White. Could using Zinc White to lighten the Phthalo mix help achieve the instensity of the Cobalt Teal? I also wondered if you could do the same thing with a medium of some kind but that might alter the paint's properties right? Well, that's all I got for now. I'll ask around. :)

Mythrill
10-22-2014, 10:24 PM
Patrick,

People talk about how good Zinc White is for mixing without altering the color as much as Titanium White. Could using Zinc White to lighten the Phthalo mix help achieve the instensity of the Cobalt Teal? I also wondered if you could do the same thing with a medium of some kind but that might alter the paint's properties right? Well, that's all I got for now. I'll ask around. :)

Hi, Wendy!

Yes, Zinc White (PW 4) is often used as an alternative to Titanium White (PW 6) in mixes; however, it's not the only white that can be used to lighten colors. Other good alternatives include, but are not limited to: calcium carbonate, calcium sulphate, more binder (in the case of acrylics), or something like Lithopone (PW 5).