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View Full Version : Remove Grumbacher Naples Yellow (Hue)(PBr7;PR108;PY35:1;PW4) from my pallet?


klopperjohnny
09-22-2014, 04:16 PM
Its my first post in this sub-forum, so I hope I am doing correctly :)

I am currently revising my pallet wondering what I can toss out and probably over-thinking it.

I am of intermediate skill level and would like to try getting a bit more serious about my pallet choices.

Currently I often use Grumbacher Naples Yellow (Hue) in my base flesh mix with Phthalo Red Rose (PC19) and shift it with Ultra Marine Blue (PB29)/Viridian Green (PG18)/Lead White/etc.

Is this a good choice? I am not sure if PW4 – Zinc Oxide is bad to use (cracks/lightfastness with other colors).

I wonder if I am being lazy using this hue. Should I switch it out with something like Naples Yellow (PBr24)?

Or maybe replace with genuine real Naples Yellow (lead based); I already love using lead white in flesh tone, so I don’t mind working with anything lead based.

Grumbacher Naples Yellow (Hue) lists these pigments:

PBr7; Calcined Natural Iron Oxide
PR108; Concentrated Cadmium Seleno-Sulfide
PY35:1; Cadmium Zinc Sulfide coprecipated with Barium Sulfate
PW4 – Zinc Oxide

Red 9
09-22-2014, 06:40 PM
PW4 is only bad if used by itself and in large amounts. The same can be said for many other pigments (for example Ivory Black, which also dries brittle when unmixed). So if you like the paint, go ahead and keep using it!

Patrick1
09-22-2014, 07:00 PM
That is a slightly odd recipe to make Naples Yellow, but it seems Grumbacher wanted to mimic the real thing as close as possible, without concern for cost (by using cadmiums). The only way to know for sure how much difference there would be with real Naples yellow would be to try real Naples Yellow :) .

I don't consider using a 'hue' to be lazy at all. Sometimes the real thing will be better for your purposes, but sometimes the 'hue' will have the edge. However...if there is a big difference in opacity/transparency or pigment load, to me that is a bigger concern than a slight color difference.

I would only consider a color choice to be problematic if you rely on it too much and it hinders your final color variation - versus doing more mixing or pre-mixing yourself. Two common examples are over-relying on a tubed flesh color, or a 'leaf' green. But even convenience colors like this can be wonderful if used judiciously.

WFMartin
09-22-2014, 08:00 PM
Well, to be very honest, I have a tube of Grumbacher Naples Yellow Hue, composed of the following pigments: PBr7, PR108, PY35:1, PW4.

And, I also own a tube of Winsor & Newton Naples Yellow 422, composed of the following pigments: PW1, PW4, PBr24.

I've been painting over 25 years, and for at least the past 15 or 20 years, I haven't even felt the need to squeeze much of any amount out of either of those two tubes onto my palette.

The Grumbacher is nearly gone, and I have been trying to use it up, primarily because the W & N always appeared a bit brighter, and a bit higher chroma than the Grumbacher Naples Yellow Hue.

But, as I say, these two colors are so far down my priority list as to be non-existent. Naples Yellow is not a remarkable color, at best, and I could easily mix the same color myself, using colors that don't even exist in those two manufacturer recipes.

When it's gone from my stock pile, it will be gone from my use entirely. That is how important it is to my painting operation.:lol: At times I use it now, merely to be using it up, because I don't like to be wasteful.:D

Mythrill
09-22-2014, 10:58 PM
Its my first post in this sub-forum, so I hope I am doing correctly :)

I am currently revising my pallet wondering what I can toss out and probably over-thinking it.

I am of intermediate skill level and would like to try getting a bit more serious about my pallet choices.

Currently I often use Grumbacher Naples Yellow (Hue) in my base flesh mix with Phthalo Red Rose (PC19) and shift it with Ultra Marine Blue (PB29)/Viridian Green (PG18)/Lead White/etc.

Is this a good choice? I am not sure if PW4 – Zinc Oxide is bad to use (cracks/lightfastness with other colors).

I wonder if I am being lazy using this hue. Should I switch it out with something like Naples Yellow (PBr24)?

Or maybe replace with genuine real Naples Yellow (lead based); I already love using lead white in flesh tone, so I don’t mind working with anything lead based.

Grumbacher Naples Yellow (Hue) lists these pigments:

PBr7; Calcined Natural Iron Oxide
PR108; Concentrated Cadmium Seleno-Sulfide
PY35:1; Cadmium Zinc Sulfide coprecipated with Barium Sulfate
PW4 – Zinc Oxide

Hi, Johny!

Genuine Naples Yellow (PY 41) is highly toxic and also very reactive. If you want to prevent it from turning green, for instance, you have to use a wooden knife, because it could react with a metal palette knife!

Don't worry about being "lazy". Choosing to not to use this hue or not is not a matter of laziness.

Regarding your hue, the pigment blend seems perfectly sound: natural iron oxide is extremely permanent, and cadmiums are very stable if kept away from very moist places.

That being said, I'll repeat what I said here a few times: I prefer Nickel Titanium Yellow (PY 53) and Chrome Titanate Yellow (PBr 24) to act as non-toxic substitutes to Naples Yellow (PY 41). There are many reasons:

1. Nickel Titanate Yellow (PY 53) is even cooler than Lemon Yellow (PY 3), and it makes nice, soft mixes. The pigment itself is really cheap, and you can use it as its own hue or mix it with Chrome Titanate Yellow (PBr 24) to represent the lighter shade of Naples Yellow.

2. Chrome Titanate Yellow (PBr 24) represents the deeper, more orange shades of real Naples Yellow (PY 41). All you need is to change the proportions a bit, and add only a tiny bit of Nickel Titanate (PY 53) to get the darker hue.

3. The pigments above are very similar in hue and behavior to Naples Yellow, but they have one major advantage: they're almost completely non-reactive. That means you won't have any nasty surprises with them interacting with anything. And they're extremely lightfast too – around as lightfast as ochres!

That being said, you don't need to use those pigments as Naples hues. You can actually love and use them as softer replacements for Cadmium Yellows (PY 35). They don't fade close to moisture like cadmiums do, and they mix more softly!

budigart
09-23-2014, 11:02 AM
The flesh palette I've used for years is Rembrandt Permanent Rose Madder Deep (alizarin substitute), yellow ocher, cremnitz white, ivory black and Old Holland burnt umber.

I often mix a few neutrals from raw umber, ivory black (about 1:1) and cremnitz white (Values 3, 5, and 7).

You will be amazed at the range of flesh tones you can achieve with these few colors.

klopperjohnny
09-23-2014, 11:13 AM
Thank you all for the input, the more I learn the less I know it often seems.

I’m probably waffling a bit, I often do :)

I started out painting about 10-12 years ago and picked Grumbacher as it offered a nice cost/performance. I’ve been quite happy with the manufacturer, but only recently started paying allot more attention to what’s actually inside the tubes … aka the pigments. I know that sounds probably ignorant, but oil painting is quite complex, there are many skills you need and things to know. It seems I am only coming around now to paying attention to the pigments. I ignorantly initially thought that by buying a premium brand (not student) that automatically means all the paints will be lightfast /high quality etc. Where the reality is so much more complex and the truth is really in the pigments. Pigments are a whole new can of worms, they are not consistent between manufactures. But it really does seem that knowing the pigment increases my understanding of what actually is happening when I mix my paints.

My Grumbacher Naples Yellow (Hue) is probably more a convenience color for me. I regularly do my color charts, where I mix my pallet (goal: limited) colors with each other. This Naples Yellow (Hue) is not featured in these sets of mine. I only use it for my flesh mix. Its frustrating me, I have this hue that I use so much (I nearly just do figures) but it not part of my core pallet! Meaning I don't use it for anything else.

I have been trying narrowing my core pallet for some time now and I am really starting to value/favor transparent pigment/paint.

@Patrick1, I think you nailed my main my concern. I worry I am relying too much on it. I also worry its limiting my flesh variation. Meaning there are probably better ways and using less complex mixes to get the same flesh tones, or even more variation.

@WFMartin, Bill, thank you for your insights. It’s always much appreciated. My issue is like an athlete learning a bad habit, I started out mixing my flesh tones with this … I know I can mix flesh so many other ways, but it’s become instinctive for me reach for this tube when mixing my “light” flesh pile. I can probably do it with my eyes closed (ok, maybe not :lol: with my eyes closed). I still have allot of it also (two 150ml tubes – I work large and mostly do figures). But now that I know that it is safe, I will finish them … maybe by then I can make up my mind if I want to stop using it.

@Mythrill, Thanks for the tips regarding reactive PY 41, based on that alone I won’t use it. I don’t care about toxicity much, but I do pallet knifing allot and don’t want that additional issue to worry about. Also thanks for you tips regarding PY 53 and PBr 24. I may get a small tube of each and see what I think, or if there is place on my pallet for them (replacing some of my PY 35s).

@Red 9, Thanks for confirming it is safe. I am going to finish up the tubes I have and start looking at alternate flesh mixes.

klopperjohnny
09-23-2014, 11:54 AM
Thanks budiart, I saw some pictures of your pallet in an older thread link here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561778)

Thank you for sharing your choices. I know there are many many ways to get to what I need ... I'll just need to do a bit of research and make some new test plates to decide on new flesh colors for my pallet.

WFMartin
09-23-2014, 01:37 PM
Johnny,

You already do such innovative, and creative work, you may not be interested in that which I'm going to explain here, but I will pass the information along to you, anyway.

Several years ago a really fine portrait painter (oils) explained his palette of color to me, and I found it to be rather strange, but also rather interesting, and useful.

The colors he uses are the following, and are all Gamblin oil paints: Permanent Alizarin Crimson, Sap Green, Brown Pink, Gold Ocher, and Asphaltum, as well as White, of course.

He showed me how he mixes his skin colors. He begins with approximately equal portions of Alizarin Crimson and Sap Green (both transparent colors). He mixes two piles of colors using these two colors. One pile is biased toward the Alizarin Crimson, and the other pile is skewed just a bit farther toward the green......not to the point of actually taking on a green cast, but toward being a bit more neutral than the pinker mix.

He mixes white with these two piles to be able to see their hue differences, but maintains the value of about a middle value.

He uses these two mixtures as his base colors, and to them [as off-shoot piles of mixes] he adds varying amounts of Brown Pink, Gold Ocher, and Asphaltum (really just a "brown"), as well as varying amounts of white to achieve lighter values. He claims that he has actually painted entire portraits using only the Alizarin Crimson/Sap Green combination, which actually creates a rather nice pearly gray.

This is not a palette of colors for those who wish to paint rather striking, high-chroma portraits, but it is very useful for the more realistic painters who wish to maintain the slightly, off-neutral colors that are so close to actual flesh colors.

I thought that palette was extremely interesting, and I'm actually working with it now on a portrait. I just thought it might be something you might wish to try.

By the way, I believe if I were seeking a handy, off-white sort of "warm", light color, in the range of Naples Yellow, I believe I'd try the Unbleached Titanium White that some painters are using. I know some friends who do portraits and landscapes who swear by that paint. I haven't tried it yet, but many painters seem to be recommending it.

klopperjohnny
09-23-2014, 04:04 PM
Thanks Bill for the nice complement :)

Fascinating, all his colors are quite transparent!

Thank you for sharing; you probably picked up on my transparent comment :lol:

I can definitely see the allure to his pallet:

Sap Green: Transparent, Diarylide yellow HR 70, copper phthalocyanine (PY 83, PB 15:1)
Gold Ochre: Transparent, Natural hydrated iron oxide, diarylide yellow (PY43, PY83)
Alizarin Permanent: Transparent, Anthraquinone Red, Phthalo Emerald, (PR177, PG36)
Brown Pink: Transparent, synthetic iron oxide, perylene (PR101, PR149)
Asphaltum (brownish-black): Transparent Mars Red, Bone Black (PR 101, PBk 9)

Ok. Good or bad, this is what I have been doing. You can probably see why I want to make changes. I have to many paints, to many opaque’s and to many complex mixes. But so far it’s been working for me.

Permanent Alizarin Crimson (transparent) PR264 Pyrrole rubine; PB29 Ultramarine blue; PV19 quinacridone red
Burnt Umber: Semi-Opaque PBr7
Naples Yellow (Hue): Opaque PBr7;PR108;PY35:1;PW4
French Ultramarine Blue: Semi-transparent, PB29 sodium aluminum sulfosilicate
Phthalo Red Rose: Semi-transparent, quinacridone redPV19

Cremnitz/Fake/Titanium White: (I LOVE lead whites for portraiture)

Optional:
Veridian: Transparent PG18
Cadmium Orange: Semi-Opaque PO20
Raw Sienna: PY43 yellow iron oxide
Ivory Black: Semi-Transparent, PBk 9

I start by mixing two piles, one I call “dark flesh” and other “light flesh”.

Dark Flesh: (towards red) I test by mixing separately a small about of white. The goal of the test is that neutral English/French (salon) skin tone. But I leave the whole pile dark.
Alizarin (red) maybe ½ part+ Burnt Umber (orange) 1 part + Ultramarine blue 1/8 or less + Viridian (blue-green) 1/4 part

Light Flesh (towards red): About the color of an ear back lit on sunny day at 4 o’clock.
Naples Yellow (hue) 1 part + Red Rose 1/3 part + Ultramarine 1/8 or less part

I’ve been doing allot of Pino studies lately, for those the chroma is quite high (even now I am trying to wrap my head around his color use). But this has also worked for me on for the bouguereau I still have to finish.

From these two piles I would quickly mix a range of values I need for my session by adding lead white. I compensate for the white cooling by adding an adjacent warm or just adding a touch Cadmium Orange. The two main piles are also compatible with each other. Meaning the light flesh mix can be mixed with the dark for in between hues. Even value shifts, as the light flesh mix much lighter than the dark and vice versa.

Combining them also make great lip colors ... with maybe a touch more Rose for woman.

The optional paints listed came in with the Pinos mostly. Cadmium Orange plus the base dark flesh mix results in interesting tones for warm dark areas. Foreheads I sometimes go downright green by adding Viridian (Pino style). Raw Sienna I use for heavy slanting towards yellow (again Pino influence).

So good/bad this is what I have been doing. I’m going to take all the advice so far and play around. I really want phase out my Naples Yellow (hue) and go the transparent/staining route. I find with transparent paint its easy to go opaque if I want, but not the other way around unless you really start thinning things down. Transparent mixing are also awesome when layering in subtle tones.

Just talking about it makes we want to go paint :clap:

Gigalot
09-23-2014, 06:26 PM
Naples Yellow (Hue): Opaque PBr7;PR108;PY35:1;PW4
This paint can dry in any oil and it can cure to a hard paint film. All listed pigments are "curable".