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Sarah Edgecumbe
09-05-2014, 07:15 PM
Blue and red don't make purple :-)

Have been doing a bit of work recently that is using purples (red leaning and blue leaning) in Australian landscapes.

I don't have any tubed violets as such.

1. Are tubed violets any good/useful/provide something more

or

2. Which colours do you normally use to mix pretty violets??

Currently i am using ultramarine blue and Magenta (PR122) with more blue or magenta depending on if i want it more blue or red. But i don't know how this stands up to what i can get from a premixed colour.

anyone willing to share their favorite mixes with me?

Sarah

Mythrill
09-05-2014, 07:37 PM
Blue and red don't make purple :-)

Have been doing a bit of work recently that is using purples (red leaning and blue leaning) in Australian landscapes.

I don't have any tubed violets as such.

1. Are tubed violets any good/useful/provide something more

or

2. Which colours do you normally use to mix pretty violets??

Currently i am using ultramarine blue and Magenta (PR122) with more blue or magenta depending on if i want it more blue or red. But i don't know how this stands up to what i can get from a premixed colour.

anyone willing to share their favorite mixes with me?

Sarah

Hi, Sarah!

Can you show us what sort of hues do you want?

As for useful violets, there are Quinacridone Purple (PV 19-beta), Ultramarine Violet (PV 15 red shade or PV 15 blue shade), Dioxazine Purple / Violet (red shade and blue shade), Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma), Quinacridone Red (PR 209). Quinacridone Purple certainly has an unmixable hue if compared to PR 122.

Sarah Edgecumbe
09-05-2014, 07:54 PM
don't really have a colour i am going for, just looking for some info on anything else to try other than a standard ultramarine/magenta mix that might be nice in aussie landscapes.

what is your favorite (Either a mix or a tubed purple) Something that aught to be tried out.


Sarah

Mythrill
09-05-2014, 09:05 PM
don't really have a colour i am going for, just looking for some info on anything else to try other than a standard ultramarine/magenta mix that might be nice in aussie landscapes.

what is your favorite (Either a mix or a tubed purple) Something that aught to be tried out.


Sarah
Hi, Sarah!

One of my favorite red-violets is "Permanent Rose" (PV 19-gamma), but when it comes to landscapes, I prefer to choose what's best given the scene.

You can see some red-violets (in acrylics) in this thread, where I painted Alizarin Crimson (PR 83) in munsell-style chips and talked about some alternatives:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1358601

There's also this thread, which talks about "Madder Alizarin" (the one made to look a bit closer to Madder, NR 9). I talked about possible hues.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1359520

Of course, these threads cover only the redder site of the spectrum. I can try to make some chips to study the bluer violets.

Sarah Edgecumbe
09-05-2014, 10:54 PM
thank you for the links i will study them when baby is back in bed... She is "disinclined to go to bed at present..."


thanks again

sarah

sidbledsoe
09-05-2014, 11:40 PM
sarah, I posted two cobalt violet threads, one here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1358680) in the color forum and one in the oil painting forum (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1358718). The one here got only two responses, but the other one in the oil painting forum got 3 pages with lots of posts and good suggestions that helped me choose some great cobalt violets!

Sarah Edgecumbe
09-06-2014, 12:18 AM
thanks for your reply :-)

i will have a look. So much info in WC and sometimes just don't know where to look :-) (search not always perfect)

baby still misbehaving (well being cute and wanting attention) so will look this afternoon.

thanks again

sarah

opainter
09-06-2014, 03:59 AM
I have discovered a tube paint (acrylic paint) called "Permanent Violet Dark" from Golden Paints, which is a combination of Anthraquinone Blue (PB60) and Quinacridone Magenta (PR122). I consider it to be the best purple tube color that you can find - and I've taken the time to look for specifically that. The only improvement you can make is to put the two colors on your palette so that you can configure the proportions exactly how you want - either more red or more blue. You might not be familiar with Anthraquinone Blue, but it is a very pure blue that can be used to make a whole range of blues ranging from a dark shadow color to a very light sky color without discernible loss of chroma. Unfortunately, Ultramarine Blue will go somewhat gray when lightened with white, so if you are trying to paint a high-chroma lavender with it in a mix, you might find yourself disappointed.

It's funny to be talking about a deep purple color here, as - purely coincidentally - I happen to be listening to Deep Purple!

Patrick1
09-06-2014, 04:50 AM
Other than Dioxazine Purple PV23, which is the single-pigment purple to end all purples, there is also the new Quinacridone Violet PV55 - which I haven't yet used in-person and wonder how it compares.

Although PR122 + Ultramarine Blue makes the most chromatic mixed purple as far as I know (it's close to PV23), I like to have a highly saturated single-pigment deep purple for the times I need it...in landscapes it adds airyness, and is a bridge between the warm and cool colors...ties everything together. Dark tubed purples are also great for mixing darks & black, and to sometimes use in place of black.

indraneel
09-06-2014, 05:19 AM
PV19 rose and PR122 will both mix purple with UMB. PV19 mix is deeper, PR122 mix gives a greater gradient of hues. It is important to have a good quality UMB (high chroma) to mix purples, or else they will quickly become dark and dull. PV23 is a single mix purple which can be pulled in either direction with PV19 rose or UMB, but is expensive (as a powder), and not terribly useful as a mixer. I'm now using my PV23 mostly to make inks. The others find great use in watercolors, and UMB (powder) is so cheap :)

Gigalot
09-06-2014, 08:08 AM
Single pigment, which is absolutely lightfast, perfect for glazing , clear enough and not expensive, is Manganese Violet, PV16. It's other name is Mineral Violet. W&N and many other manufacturers have it (but not useful for Acrylic!).
Acrylic artists, do not search it!
While much more expensive, Cobalt Violet dark is a bit more clear in masstone color, Manganese Violet looks more clear in mixtures than Cobalt Violet dark. It has a tendency to be grayer in tints with white. I think, PV16 is a paint "must have" on palette :)

Mythrill
09-06-2014, 09:19 AM
Single pigment, which is absolutely lightfast, perfect for glazing , clear enough and not expensive, is Manganese Violet, PV16. It's other name is Mineral Violet. W&N and many other manufacturers have it (but not useful for Acrylic!).
Acrylic artists, do not search it!
While much more expensive, Cobalt Violet dark is a bit more clear in masstone color, Manganese Violet looks more clear in mixtures than Cobalt Violet dark. It has a tendency to be grayer in tints with white. I think, PV16 is a paint "must have" on palette :)
Hi, Giga!

Unfortunately, neither Cobalt Violet Light nor Dark (PV 15) nor Manganese Violet (PV 16) are available in acrylics. I suppose you could try to buy the pigment powder and make it yourself, but Sarah is also trying to avoid pigments that might be toxic, since she has a little baby now.

The most unique hue I've seen so far as a single-pigment violet is PV 19-beta, (erroneously) sold by Winsor & Newton as "Quinacridone Magenta. It's significantly warm even compared to Dioxazine Violet (PV 23 red shade).

Here is the Dickblick swatch:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Sep-2014/96427-01630_QuinaMag-l.jpg

Although this looks like their Quinacridone Violet (PR 122), it mixes completely different, neutralizing yellows instead of making red, nor does it make blue with cyan paints, thus making it a true violet (instead of magenta). It's also the most lightfast organic red-violet we have, being completely lightfast, according to handprint.com.

You can also see Golden's study about it them both here, page 4: http://justpaint.org/archive/jp21.pdf

Do note that Golden has the names right: their Quinacridone Magenta is PR 122, and their Quinacridone Violet is PV19.

Gigalot
09-06-2014, 11:55 AM
Manganase violet is a cosmetic pigment. It's use in cosmetic are wide because organic pigments like Quinacridones can provide strong allergy sensibility. Most of organic pigments are replaced by inorganic for that purpose. Safe cosmetic do not contains benzidines, phthaleins or quinacridones. It is very common misleading, that people are thinking about all inorganics as a toxic stuff.
You can check this:
http://www.u-makeitup.com/cosmetic-ingredients/ultramarines-matte-pigments.html

I think, people can use cosmetic pigments without much troubles, without having allergy reactions on them, but however, most pigments, even cosmetic stuff, are not food colorants. People can buy food colorants for artists usage in confectionery. Artists colours are not designed to eat.

redgreen
09-06-2014, 12:41 PM
Manganese Vilolet looks lustrous straight out of the tube whereas Dioxadine is dark and greys down when lightened.

Mythrill
09-06-2014, 01:24 PM
Manganase violet is a cosmetic pigment. It's use in cosmetic are wide because organic pigments like Quinacridones can provide strong allergy sensibility. Most of organic pigments are replaced by inorganic for that purpose. Safe cosmetic do not contains benzidines, phthaleins or quinacridones. It is very common misleading, that people are thinking about all inorganics as a toxic stuff.
You can check this:
http://www.u-makeitup.com/cosmetic-ingredients/ultramarines-matte-pigments.html

I think, people can use cosmetic pigments without much troubles, without having allergy reactions on them, but however, most pigments, even cosmetic stuff, are not food colorants. People can buy food colorants for artists usage in confectionery. Artists colours are not designed to eat.

I see it now, Giga, and you do have a point about Manganese Violet (PV 16) not being toxic. However, it's still not sold in acrylics for whatever reason.

You can still buy the pigment and try to make acrylic paint, but I'm not sure that's something Sarah will want to do.

Gigalot
09-06-2014, 03:36 PM
However, it's still not sold in acrylics for whatever reason.

I don't know why, but Ammonium phosphates are not available in acrylic. I guess, due to dispersion stability and coagulation. Cobalt Violet light and deep, Manganese Violet. All are Cobalt or Manganese ammonium pyrophosphate. May be those pigments can affect PH in acrylic binder. The same for Viridian. Many pigments, stable in oil, are not used in acrylic. Dioxazine and Ultramarine violet are very common violet pigments in acrylics.

shadoj
09-06-2014, 04:00 PM
I see it now, Giga, and you do have a point about Manganese Violet (PV 16) not being toxic. However, it's still not sold in acrylics for whatever reason.

You can still buy the pigment and try to make acrylic paint, but I'm not sure that's something Sarah will want to do.
FYI, Manganese violet PV16 isn't stable in acrylic emulsions or fresco, as it gets decomposed by alkalis.

PV55 quinacridone purple is beautiful in watercolors; I'll have to be on the lookout for it in acrylics. My only tubed purple acrylics are PV15 ultramarine violet (Golden) & PV19 quinacridone blue-violet (Liquitex). I like indanthrone blue PB60 & phthalo blue (RS) PB15:6 for (non-cobalt) blue mixing alternates to PB29; for alternate red-magentas, I have PV19 crimson (Liquitex) & PV19 primary magenta (Golden). If I want more maroon tones, I'll add pyrrole orange PO73 to one of my purples. Interference Violet adds some red-violet sparkle to mixtures, plus neat effects when glazed over other colors (like browns). Happy painting! :)

Gigalot
09-06-2014, 04:04 PM
PV55 is a newest Quinacridone pigment :)
Manganese violet, mixed with Cobalt-Chromium blue-green oxide I use recently to paint sky. Gorgeous color!

Mythrill
09-06-2014, 04:11 PM
I don't know why, but Ammonium phosphates are not available in acrylic. I guess, due to dispersion stability and coagulation. Cobalt Violet light and deep, Manganese Violet. All are Cobalt or Manganese ammonium pyrophosphate. May be those pigments can affect PH in acrylic binder. The same for Viridian. Many pigments, stable in oil, are not used in acrylic. Dioxazine and Ultramarine violet are very common violet pigments in acrylics.

Interestingly, there is one single company (as far as I know) that sells Viridian (PG 18) in acrylics. It's Sennelier. Ironically, tough, because the company is French, they don't market it as "Viridian", but as "Emerald Green"!

Here's the Dickblick Swatch of their "Emerald Green" here. The link is: http://www.dickblick.com/items/01629-7054/#colorswatch

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Sep-2014/96427-01629_EmeraldGreen-l.jpg

opainter
09-06-2014, 11:09 PM
Interestingly, there is one single company (as far as I know) that sells Viridian (PG 18) in acrylics. It's Sennelier. Ironically, tough, because the company is French, they don't market it as "Viridian", but as "Emerald Green"!

Here's the Dickblick Swatch of their "Emerald Green" here. The link is: http://www.dickblick.com/items/01629-7054/#colorswatch

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Sep-2014/96427-01629_EmeraldGreen-l.jpg
It's interesting to compare the single-pigment version with a multi-pigment one from Golden:

Also from Dick Blick. The link is here (http://www.dickblick.com/items/00620-7193/#colorswatch).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Sep-2014/983189-00620_ViridianGreenHue-l.jpg

opainter
09-06-2014, 11:26 PM
* * *

1. Are tubed violets any good/useful/provide something more

or

2. Which colours do you normally use to mix pretty violets??

* * *

Sarah

Back to Sarah's question about violet.

The visible color spectrum has red on the low end (just above infrared) and violet on the high end (just below ultraviolet). Although our brains "think" there is an unbroken color circle that connects red and violet together, from a scientific standpoint there really isn't. When you think about it, it would be surprising that any single pigment would provide both a strong red component, for making reddish purples, and a strong violet component, for making bluish violets. This argues for the use of at least two very different pigments. They could come from a multi-pigment tube paint, or, for greater flexibility in selecting the ratio of pigments, from two separate tubes of paint.

I'm speculating here, but this does seem (to me, anyway!) to make sense, and I would like to know what others think. :wave:

davidbriggs
09-07-2014, 04:34 AM
When you think about it, it would be surprising that any single pigment would provide both a strong red component, for making reddish purples, and a strong violet component, for making bluish violets.

Not really so surprising in itself, in that all violet, purple and magenta pigments pass on the red and blue-violet ends of the spectrum to some extent and preferentially absorb the middle part, but it's true and I suppose not surprising that no pigment does this perfectly. Such a pigment would be an ideal subtractive magenta, and would certainly be better than available pigments for mixing high-chroma blue-violets and red-violets.

Mythrill
09-07-2014, 08:50 AM
It's interesting to compare the single-pigment version with a multi-pigment one from Golden:

Also from Dick Blick. The link is here (http://www.dickblick.com/items/00620-7193/#colorswatch).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Sep-2014/983189-00620_ViridianGreenHue-l.jpg
It's interesting Golden's version gets so close from Viridian, being made of PW4 / PB15:4 / PY150 / PBr7 (according to their site, http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/colors/heavy-body/viridian-green-hue).

The difference is that Viridian (PG 18) seems slightly warmer and cleaner in tints, with a lower tinting strength.
(http://www.goldenpaints.com/products/colors/heavy-body/viridian-green-hue)

Quinacridone Gold
09-10-2014, 11:08 AM
Back to original violets question, in watercolour Quin Rose and Phthalo Green - PV19 and PG7 - make amazing purples. Quinacridone rose is also lovely with Ultramarine of course. I find it interesting to use a green as a base for purples in landscapes, especially if I am also using phthalo green with a yellow earth to make landscape greens.

indraneel
09-10-2014, 01:37 PM
Jane, do you mean phthalo blue? A PG7 mix with PV19 just gives me the blackest black.

PV19 + prussian also gives a nice dark purple.

shadoj
09-10-2014, 06:55 PM
Jane, do you mean phthalo blue? A PG7 mix with PV19 just gives me the blackest black.

PV19 + prussian also gives a nice dark purple.
PV19 comes in all kinds of shades, from blue-violet to red; mine often look near-black in masstone when mixed with PG7 (yes, green) but tint out in undertone to berry-juice colors. Depending on brand, though, it's possible that the "reddest" shades of your PV19 could mix to black/near-black with your PG7. (Sorry Jane, not trying to answer for ya!)

Too bad Prussian blue PB27 isn't alkali stable, so no good for acrylics :). It does make lovely watercolor purples!

Seems like Viridian PG18 does ok in alkaline environments, but is gosh-darn-difficult to get to suspend in an acrylic emulsion. Golden just gave up on it; apparently Sennelier chemists persevered. Maybe that's a reason to finally try their acrylic paint!

Quinacridone Gold
09-10-2014, 07:48 PM
Jane, do you mean phthalo blue? A PG7 mix with PV19 just gives me the blackest black.

PV19 + prussian also gives a nice dark purple.

No I do mean phthalo green, but mixed with quin rose PV19 not quin violet PV19.

Quin Rose makes lovely purples with any blue, but the purples with PG7 are wonderful.

Patrick1
09-13-2014, 05:52 AM
That makes sense because Quin. Rose + PG7 makes a blueish-black color (something like Paynes Grey or Indigo) at around the halfway point. Having less PG7 in the mix is like mixing that blue-black color into Quin. Rose. Voila...a subdued purple color. Even mixing a true black into Quin. Rose will give a dull purple.

Mythrill
09-13-2014, 10:37 AM
That makes sense because Quin. Rose + PG7 makes a blueish-black color (something like Paynes Grey or Indigo) at around the halfway point. Having less PG7 in the mix is like mixing that blue-black color into Quin. Rose. Voila...a subdued purple color. Even mixing a true black into Quin. Rose will give a dull purple.

Patrick, I would say that mixing black (preferably Bone Black, PBk 9, for its semi-transparency) with PV19 will actually give you warmer purples than with its complementary. The reason is that the mix simply loses much less chroma, much more slowly, if compared with PG7.

Gigalot
09-13-2014, 04:04 PM
Patrick, I would say that mixing black (preferably Bone Black, PBk 9, for its semi-transparency) with PV19 will actually give you warmer purples than with its complementary. The reason is that the mix simply loses much less chroma, much more slowly, if compared with PG7.

PG7 id not a complementary color to PV19. Therefore, it gives some bluish effect in mixtures, Black pigment to not have because black pigment is neutral color.

Better complementary color is PG36, Phthalo emerald. But, again, it is not "ideal" complement to PV19, just more close than PG7.

Mythrill
09-13-2014, 07:25 PM
PG7 id not a complementary color to PV19. Therefore, it gives some bluish effect in mixtures, Black pigment to not have because black pigment is neutral color.

Better complementary color is PG36, Phthalo emerald. But, again, it is not "ideal" complement to PV19, just more close than PG7.

Giga, black pigments are anything but neutral. Place Bone Black (PBk 9) along Mars Black (PBk 11) and you'll see Bone Black is much, much warmer. This is exactly why you get greenish colors when mixing them with yellow and they can be very convincing!

The warm purples you get by mixing Bone Black with Quinacridone Rose (PV 19-gamma) are really, really interesting. All you need is to add a tiny touch of black to the mix.

indraneel
09-14-2014, 12:11 AM
I have a crackled porcelain plate that is stained blue from all my pen and ink experiments with India ink. Black is blue in color.

Gigalot
09-14-2014, 09:34 AM
the maximum optical blue you can get using thin glaze of diluted Zinc White over black background. Black glaze over white is warmer than neutral gray.

Patrick1
09-15-2014, 10:16 AM
I have a crackled porcelain plate that is stained blue from all my pen and ink experiments with India ink.
Then it is not black! Is the pigment Lamp Black?

Patrick1
09-15-2014, 11:06 AM
Patrick, I would say that mixing black (preferably Bone Black, PBk 9, for its semi-transparency) with PV19 will actually give you warmer purples than with its complementary. The reason is that the mix simply loses much less chroma, much more slowly, if compared with PG7.
Hi,
I don't know if you actually tried this out in a side-by-side comparison. I can't because I don't have a good mixing complement to Quin Rose. I only have PG7 which is too blue.

I would expect (which means I could be wrong) that a highly transparent mixing complement of Quin Rose would give a purple (or more correct to call it maroon) of higher saturation (i.e. less grey at the same value) than adding Ivory Black. Just my notion - the only way to know for sure would be to try it out.

indraneel
09-15-2014, 12:34 PM
Then it is not black! Is the pigment Lamp Black?

I have no idea at all :lol: It does settle at the bottom of the bottle and sometimes clumps. I knead it with a finger to put it back in suspension, and it feels a bit slick (as in tiny bit oily). Takes a few days of washing with soap to get it all out from around the fingernails (which is always black, never blue). I think the ink is acrylic based, dries waterproof.

Alessandra Kelley
09-15-2014, 01:12 PM
PV19 comes in all kinds of shades, from blue-violet to red; mine often look near-black in masstone when mixed with PG7 (yes, green) but tint out in undertone to berry-juice colors. Depending on brand, though, it's possible that the "reddest" shades of your PV19 could mix to black/near-black with your PG7. (Sorry Jane, not trying to answer for ya!)

Too bad Prussian blue PB27 isn't alkali stable, so no good for acrylics :). It does make lovely watercolor purples!

Seems like Viridian PG18 does ok in alkaline environments, but is gosh-darn-difficult to get to suspend in an acrylic emulsion. Golden just gave up on it; apparently Sennelier chemists persevered. Maybe that's a reason to finally try their acrylic paint!

I've been using Golden's PG7 mixed with PV19 to make a range of deep greens, blues, and violets for years. It doesn't get very near black.

Patrick1
09-15-2014, 01:31 PM
I've been using Golden's PG7 mixed with PV19 to make a range of deep greens, blues, and violets for years. It doesn't get very near black.
Have you tried thick/impasto? In oils or artist grade acrylics, PG7 + PV19 always makes me a luscious black when applied thickly - with no dilution. When diluted or especially tinted with white its color comes out.

Patrick1
09-17-2014, 06:29 PM
Patrick, I would say that mixing black (preferably Bone Black, PBk 9, for its semi-transparency) with PV19 will actually give you warmer purples than with its complementary.
If you use some cobalt green/teal (rather than PG36) as the complement for PV19, yes I would think it's possible that this mix would be more greyed than using either black or PG36 as the complement ...because the cobalt pigment is not dark and transparent ...it's almost as though there is a bit of white in the mix, thus greying it. At least that's what I expect would happen. Unfortunately I don't have many acrylics right now to try out different mixes.

shadoj
09-19-2014, 03:48 PM
Don't know if these are any help, but I finally scanned in some masstone-only swatches I painted last year:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2014/1901074-aa-acr-purple-0001.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2014/1901074-aa-acr-purple.jpg

PV19 shown above & below is the Liquitex Quinacridone Blue-Violet version. Forgot to paint out anything with PV19 Golden Primary Magenta!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2014/1901074-aa-acr-purple-0002.jpg

That's interference green on the top row, interference blue in the middle row, and interference violet on the bottom row. The scanner didn't do the best job on picking up the nifty color-shifting effects.

Patrick1
09-21-2014, 03:44 AM
Thanks Jen. I like the super deep and saturated purples you got from PB15:6 + PV19 (the top mixing series). I also like the soft, smoky mixes using PG50. Although it's not nearly as deep, it's a 'kinder & gentler' alternative to the phthalos as a mixing color and to use on its own as a bright aqua color.