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JPQ
12-30-2013, 06:03 PM
Neutrals how you define them? for example some example hues any brand.(but mainly mostly form Unison,Schmincke and Sennelier,and Great American Artworks i can get easily first three and little bit harder last one). but this thing is not important how easily i can get them becouse i try look how they look in colour charts. to me is hard understand different for example neutral and cool grey difference.

Colorix
12-30-2013, 06:35 PM
A neutral is, well, neutral, and it can be a warm or cool "greyed" colour. It is low in chroma (intensity), that is, beige/grey or "greyed down" from full intensity/chroma. An English Red is in the red "family", but it is not as high in chroma as a Cad red. It is neutralized, but not beyond being attributed to a colour "family".

A "brown" can be of the yellow family, or the red or the orange, for example. It takes time and experience to teach the eye to distinguish between them.

You can grey/neutralize with black or grey, or with a complementary colour, or a near complementary.

White also has a tendency to cool, neutralize, and it most certainly lower the chroma.

The more exact terminology is hue, value, and chroma, which all are what constitutes the definition of a particular "colour".

robertsloan2
12-30-2013, 09:01 PM
When I'm sorting my pastels, neutrals are the grays and browns. If it's only a little bit muted, like an olive green, it goes in the "greens." If it's a gray-green it goes in "Grays." I have a certain chroma that I made an arbitrary decision for which trays to put them in - and that was partly decided by how many trays I had when sorting the pastels in my Dakota Traveller. Colors I would have called blue, green or violet wound up in grays, earth reds and yellows wound up in browns.

I just separate out my pastels into a more neutralized spectrum and a brighter spectrum.

But I also went by what I saw of sets like Mount Vision Thunderstorm Grays where muted colors across the spectrum are sold as grays. They are very useful colors, it's also great to have values and tints in them. Sometimes it's fun to do an entire painting in a "neutrals" palette and let juxtaposition make their colors seem brighter, it gives an interesting look.

Studio-1-F
12-30-2013, 09:16 PM
In the spirit of a picture being worth a thousand words, here are examples of Terry Ludwig sets :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Dec-2013/12504-image.jpg

Jan

SSB
12-30-2013, 11:19 PM
I thought neutrals were colors with no warm or cool bias, irrespective of the intensity of chroma or value? Is that not true in pastel world?

robertsloan2
12-30-2013, 11:34 PM
Well, technically that would make "neutrals" only the actual pure neutral grays. But the way pastel makers use it, and pastelists, that's the full range of grayish colors and browns. There are too many uses for that funny purplish gray in both portraits and landscapes, there's beige, there's all these odd muted colors in nature and sometimes it's not very clear what hue they are until you line them up with similarly muted hues to see which one complements them and shows the color.

Most sets of anything dry medium will have blue-grays or warm and cool grays, which the warm ones look like grayish browns. I go one step brighter than that and sort for actual hue.

As a way to organize pastels it rocks, because it's much easier to see the hue progressions in the brights and it's easier to identify muted colors when they're arranged chromatically. A purplish beige is going to be in a particular spot along the spectrum and it'll be that color I actually need for that patch of my cat's fur in that degree of shadow.

Some pastel makers also create neutral sticks by combining vibrant complementary pigments, which makes those grays and browns really sing even using them by themselves.

JPQ
12-31-2013, 12:56 AM
looks like coloured greys are what i class thisway. and i dont own greys without cast for some color. at least not yet i search one kind greys i dont know if possible found. at least Schmincke dont seem have such greys.

JPQ
12-31-2013, 12:59 AM
i think one kind greys what i want is in theory possible do titanium white and iivory black. but i dont yet found them.

Colorix
12-31-2013, 08:23 AM
I thought neutrals were colors with no warm or cool bias, irrespective of the intensity of chroma or value? Is that not true in pastel world?

As always in art, people use words in different ways, regardless of medium. Greys and neutrals very often mean the same thing. A greyed down or neutralised colour, for example. One could also say "a colour biased neutral/grey", or something similar. Even "beige/brown".

Talking about degree of Chroma is a way to be more exact and avoid confusion (and it works in order to avoid upsetting those who tend to get militant about their personal meaning of "grey" or "neutral").

JPQ
12-31-2013, 12:11 PM
maybe put coloured greys and whites and blacks same area my set. when i get more practical what my currently awful system is. i want all brands same system and way i dont need lift any pastels access all what i have. ps. if all goed well get soon more Unisons.

DAK723
12-31-2013, 04:00 PM
As always in art, people use words in different ways, regardless of medium.

Alas, this is so true. If were to think I need to neutralize this color, it would merely mean to lower the intensity or chroma. The end result is not necessarily a "neutral" - it may still be somewhat "colorful" - just not as colorful or intense as the original color.

If I think of a neutral, however, then I would think of colors that are more gray than a color (but still have some color). So, I would not put some of the colors (many from rows 1, 3 and 4) from Jan's neutral picture into my definition! They look more brown than gray. Where the dividing line is between a color and a neutral is somewhat of a personal decision - and probably not always consistent!

Colors that have no warm or cool bias I would define as grays. I guess grays are the most neutral of the neutrals!

Don

Phil Coleman
01-03-2014, 04:46 PM
Did anyone mention that a grey(neutral) can appear vibrant, when placed against a darker tone? or even against its complimentary!

Colorix
01-03-2014, 06:53 PM
Don't think it was mentioned, so glad you pointed it out, Phil.

I have a colour chart, divided into a sheet per nuance, and the greys that are barely of any hue even take on the complementary aspects when viewed with the successively more intense chromas of the same hue.

Degas said that the trick was to make an iron oxide red to look like a vermillion. :-D

Lynndidj
01-04-2014, 01:46 AM
Neutrals are funny things. They change compared to what they are placed next to. SO, when you are looking at your pastels, you have to compare them. Take two reds. Which looks less intense, less colorful? Now find another red that is even Less colorful. Keep going until you find the most "grayed" red. I would place that in my "neutral" area of my box. This is a most time consuming project of constant comparisons and decisions to separate out your "neutral" pastels from your more colorful and intense chroma pastels. Once you have done this exercise, you will have a new understanding of color, of value, and of what constitutes a more intense chroma pastel, and what constitutes a grayed color - and that is priceless!!

Lynn

JPQ
01-04-2014, 11:53 AM
To me even Schmincke one light blue gray is very blue. i trying found less blue blue grey. But is this true if i place yellow close to blue grey this kind blue amount reduces ? of couse i can test but i dont have much white pastel paper now...

Grinner
01-04-2014, 09:16 PM
This may help - this from a post by Phil Bates, and I think the way he sorts his studio pastels should be a very useful visual demonstrating one artist's definitions of neutrals and grays.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jan-2014/1114802-183054-Studio_Palette_11-09_sm_wh.jpg
Here is his full post (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12437482&postcount=10) that includes this image.

Lynndidj
01-05-2014, 01:19 AM
Grinner - great post. JPQ - this is the perfect photo for you to see how to separate your pastels. Remember, any color will change how it looks depending on what it is placed next to. So, if you place a gray green next to a red, that gray green is going to look more green -- because red is it's complement and so they are going to play off of one another. If you place that gray green next to a pure gray, it will most likely also appear more green. However, if you place that gray green next to a lively spring green, it will appear to be a gray. This is true for every color in the spectrum and it changes depending on the original color you choose, and what you are placing it next to. You will have to try to separate your pastels as Phil Bates did, and then try painting using the grayed colors first, moving only into the pure colors toward the end of your painting. I recommend you purchase Richard McKinley's Pastel Pointers book if at all possible as he talks about many of these same issues in that book.

Lynn

Phil Coleman
01-05-2014, 02:58 PM
What a collection of pastels Phil has!
A friend of mine uses the most basic selection of pastels, oils and acrylics but achieves some fantastic effects. Many of her paintings are undertaken with subdued tones, (grays and neutrals) sometimes using perhaps just 3 colours. A link to some of her paintings is below, you will be able to see what is achievable by using a limited palette. Some of her painting are undertaken just using tonal variation but all in our art group are so inspired by her work. Anyway enjoy!

http://lynne-abley-burton.deviantart.com/

JPQ
01-05-2014, 03:15 PM
I going look later these works. i also count my setup limited is less than 200 hues i think. and many hues i discontinue use after they end becouse they are now unavailable stuff.

Studio-1-F
01-05-2014, 05:23 PM
. . . This is true for every color in the spectrum and it changes depending on the original color you choose, and what you are placing it next to.
Yes!! A well-known area of color study, originally developed by Johannes Itten mid-last-century and expounded in his book The Elements of Color.

A short summary is here : http://www.utdallas.edu/~melacy/pages/2D_Design/Itten_ColorContrasts/IttenColorContrasts.html

One of Itten's students, Joseph Albers, expanded and elaborated on the theories in his beautiful book Interaction of Color.

There is an expensive (ten bucks) interactive Ipad app developed by Yale University Press that illustrates all of this. You can play around and manipulate and juxtapose colors all day long. It's also called Interaction of Color.

Or you can, which is much more fun, do as Lynn suggests and play around with actual neutrals and actual full chroma pastels IRL. It's remarkable what a little contrast does to an adjacent color.

Jan

getdusty
01-05-2014, 08:51 PM
Phil, your friend's paintings are beautiful!

SSB
01-07-2014, 09:08 PM
Guys, I think neutrals are colors with no temperature bias, as in warm or cool. Grays are low chroma colors, regardless of bias. So, one can have a warm, cool or neutral gray, like with any other color: blue, green etc. How is this not true? Am I misunderstanding?

Colorix
01-08-2014, 05:55 AM
SSB, I like your definition, it makes sense.

But that presupposes that people would agree on what is 'warm/cool'... what is coolest, a blue leaning slightly towards violet, or a blue leaning slightly towards green? What is warmest, yellow, orange, or red? :-D

For many, a 'grey' is a combo of black and white, while colour biased mixes are 'neutral', as they're neutralised from a bright colour.

Much depends on the teacher who taught us, how they used the words.

We just have to live with the fact that people define these terms differently. When necessary, I ask people what they mean.

DAK723
01-08-2014, 09:17 AM
We just have to live with the fact that people define these terms differently. When necessary, I ask people what they mean.
Agreed. When I look at Phil Bates' collection, I ask myself, where is the line between pure and neutrals? It seems quite arbitrary. In a way, I suppose, it has to be. I notice that I am the only one who has my definition of neutral! :lol: Maybe we all feel that way!

The word neutral can be used to define the transition between warm and cool colors, but I think less people use this definition in a general sense of the term. Emile Gruppe, who wrote a fine book on painting with color, would list red and green as neutrals, as far as color temperature is concerned - regardless of how pure or chromatic they are. He defines warm as yellow and orange on the color wheel and cool as blue and violet. Therefore the transition from warm to cool happens in the red and green area. Those colors (or wherever each artist considers the transition) are neutrals in terms of color temperature. So, really, the word "neutral" can be used for various aspects of color.

Don

Colorix
01-08-2014, 09:59 AM
Agreed. When I look at Phil Bates' collection, I ask myself, where is the line between pure and neutrals? It seems quite arbitrary. In a way, I suppose, it has to be. I notice that I am the only one who has my definition of neutral! :lol: Maybe we all feel that way!

Oh yes we do all feel that *we* are right! Or *more* right... :cool:
Phil has put several of his darker 'brownish' sticks with the 'pure' to get darkened (and neautralised) yellows, for example.

Emile Gruppe, ....would list red and green as neutrals, as far as color temperature is concerned -.... He defines warm as yellow and orange on the color wheel and cool as blue and violet. Therefore the transition from warm to cool happens in the red and green area.
Don

Oh, I hope that book can be found, I'd love to read it. Will google it.

Yeah, they had another way of thinking at that time, at least some of the artists. I can understand the system, but it goes totally against how I perceive colour. Bright primary red as a 'neutral'? :eek:

But yes, there will be neutrals in all aspects of colour: hue, chroma, value, if it is defined as a transition point/area, or a balance range.