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kinasi
12-22-2013, 12:57 PM
Hi,

Can anyone explain how PY3 has an opaque version in Sennelier and is Opaque in W&N Winton? I thought PY3 was semi-trasparent.

I thought it might be a different scale in opacity, you know, a different subjective scale the manufacturer uses, but sennelier clearly has 2 distinct versions of the same pigment in their oils, on the same page.

I know that within a certain pigment there can be differences, within iron oxides there's a huge range in hue and opacity, but I've never heard of an opaque version of PY3.

I emailed sennelier but they don't respond.

Regarding W&N, it seems rather strange to me, that if there is an opaque PY3, they would put this in their student range but not in their Artist range, you'd think if there was an opaque version of PY3, they would be shouting it from the rooftops, because it would be a great replacement for cad lemon. W&N also use 0 for their winton PY3, which they only use for really really opaque colors. Bismuth isn't bad, but it's really too light valued for my taste, and it has bismuth and vanadium, I wouldn't be shocked if that ended up being more toxic than cadmium. They used to put that color in make-up, but most manufacturers have stopped using it out of safety concerns.

Does anyone know if PY3 has an opaque version? Is it just a filler or something making it opaque?

Thanks.

kinasi
12-22-2013, 12:59 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2013/1558522-etetetesfsfseyey.jpg

Gigalot
12-22-2013, 02:52 PM
Opacity of Arylides and Diarylides depends of their pigment particle size. Larger particles means more opaque pigments. If you can change technology, you can produce larger pigment particles and more opacity pigments. For example, Diarylide yellow PY83 has many forms, from translucent to a very opaque versions. But most pigments loose primarily it's native beauty in opaque form.

kinasi
12-22-2013, 02:58 PM
Opacity of Arylides and Diarylides depends of their pigment particle size. Larger particles means more opaque pigments. If you can change technology, you can produce larger pigment particles and more opacity pigments. For example, Diarylide yellow PY83 has many forms, from translucent to a very opaque versions.
Thanks Gigalot. I emailed W&N, hopefully they reply.

I noticed their PY65, a really saturated yellow-orange which makes an excellent alternative to cad yellow deep, is opaque too in their Winton range, it's semi-transparent in their artist range. I might just combine student grade paint with artist paint if they are really opaque verison.

I don't mind the lower tinting strength of arylide, it's their opacity that is an issue, or lack thereof more specifically.

PY74 is supposed to be a decent yellow, but I like a more lemon and deep orange yellow, it gives me a much higher gamut than a middle yellow.

I also love PY65, such an amazing color.

Gigalot
12-22-2013, 03:05 PM
I noticed their PY65, a really saturated yellow-orange, which makes an excellent alternative to cad yellow deep is opaque too in their Winton range. I might just combine student grade paint with artist paint if they are really opaque verison.


PY83 has the same color as PY65, but it can be better in lightfastness term. I heard some recommendation to replace PY65 to PY83. You can also check those paints.
PY97 is very bright pure reddish yellow, more orange than PY74, but less than PY65/83
Check also PY110, it is very beautiful very reddish yellow pigment.

kinasi
12-22-2013, 03:13 PM
PY83 has the same color as PY65, but it can be better in lightfastness term. I heard some recommendation to replace PY65 to PY83. You can also check those paints.
PY97 is very bright pure reddish yellow, more orange than PY74, but less than PY65/83
Thank you.

Sennelier has it, apparently it's opaque.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2013/1558522-tuititit.JPG

It seems slightly less saturated than PY65.

Golden says it has Chroma 15.8.

Cad yellow deep has Chroma 16.5 for about the same value.

I know PY65 has a higher chroma than PY35.

The swatch looks a bit dull on Golden's site, but bright on sennelier, I'll give it a try, thank you.

Gigalot
12-22-2013, 03:23 PM
Opaque forms are duller than their transparent counterparts.

kinasi
12-22-2013, 03:28 PM
Opaque forms are duller than their transparent counterparts.
Thanks, I read that many times. W&N makes a point of it multiple times throughout their site, they say you need a both transparent and opaque colors in your palette to make "clean mixes".

Maybe it's impossible to have both opacity and a big color gamut, I might have to learn to move away from relying on the opacity of cadmiums if I'm planning on removing them from my palette. Pyrolle red makes an excellent cad red replacement, so I already found a replacement for that, it's just the yellows I'm now debating.

I noticed bismuth yellow isn't that bright either, it's below a cad yellow lemon in chroma, but hansa yellow light PY3 is above cad lemon.

kinasi
12-22-2013, 04:17 PM
test

The cover power of PY65 is maybe not that bad as I think. It's really in acrylics that it's extremely low, I'm guessing the acrylics binder causes it to be so transparent.

PY65, left acrylics, right oils.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Dec-2013/1558522-ftyjutytyutu.jpg

Gigalot
12-22-2013, 05:54 PM
Student grade oils are more transparent.

kinasi
12-22-2013, 10:19 PM
it's W&N artist oil and artist acrylics

maybe it looks like student grade lol

honestly I don't really notice much difference between student and artist grade in W&N, their student grade paint is really good

Gigalot
12-23-2013, 01:55 PM
Maimeri Classico are even perfect!
Just stable and workable pigment content in oil are higher in comparison with Acrylic counterparts. I student grade oils filler gives more transparent result.

kinasi
12-24-2013, 05:25 PM
Opacity of Arylides and Diarylides depends of their pigment particle size.

Got an email back from W&N:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2013/1558522-t7i9tit.JPG

Gigalot
12-25-2013, 09:57 AM
Got an email back from W&N:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Dec-2013/1558522-t7i9tit.JPG

It is true mostly for inorganic pigments, particularly for natural earth. Note: W&N are paint manufacturer not a pigment makers. They just buy organic pigments from pigment manufacturers. Pigment manufacturers are Ciba, BASF, Hangzhou Chinese factory, DuPont, Union Carbide and e.t.c

Organic pigments properties strongly depends of chemistry manufacturing process and technology. The Alpha, Beta, Gamma crystalline forms of pigment, particle size and crystalline form like globules or flat particles mostly depends of solvent, temperature, time and special additives used in technology process to prepare this pigment.
However, W&N tries (or tried in the past!) to use selected pigments with better hue purity to make artists grade paints and a bit less quality pigments to make Student colours. But today, even Chinese pigments are very pure, strongly controlled, well prepared and have certified color and impurities content. Just Standard pigments.
Three roller machine can't change pigment quality, but it can increase paint quality, softness and consistency.

kinasi
12-27-2013, 11:47 PM
I was considering bismuth, I checked in the store but it's way too expensive. It's as expensive as cobalt and cadmium.

W&N said the days of cadmium paints are limited, they can only produce in small tubes and there are lots of campaigns and propositions to ban cadmium:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Dec-2013/1558522-dhdhdhd.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Dec-2013/1558522-rtuurturu.JPG

So, bismuth is out, and I'm sure it will get banned too if they ban cadmium, it's just as toxic.

There are already campaigns to get bismuth out of production too, it's production is extremely toxic to the environment.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Dec-2013/1558522-rtrurur.JPG

So hansa is the only choice for a lemon yellow, and I can manage fine with hansa deep or pyrolle orange or something as my orange.

Pyrolle orange is actually really nice.

PY74 is great too.

Gigalot
12-28-2013, 05:11 AM
Bismuth is not toxic, kinasi. The toxicity of Bismuth can be compared with toxicity of iron (which is heavy metal too) and toxicity of tin. The panic around Bismuth yellow pigment appeared because of Vanadium content. Vanadium toxicity are not well studied, and, therefore mass-media turned against it.

Phtalo green, mixed with yellow ochre can replace easily UMB+Cadmium yellow mixture, which is a totally recommended green mixture in many artists books. I do not have PG36, but it might be even brighter

kinasi
12-28-2013, 09:13 PM
I assumed it after reading this.

Golden isn't too happy with bismuth paints it seems, or cadmiums for that matter. I can understand why they would say this because many children use their acrylics too.

It's not so much that I'm not careful with paints, it's that I want to be environmentally friendly. Yes, cadmium might not be that toxic in their current form, their production is anything but good for mother nature it seems.

I am more pleased with PY74 each day I use it btw, excellent pigment.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Dec-2013/1558522-article2-cntr.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Dec-2013/1558522-fyjfjfjfj.JPG

kinasi
12-28-2013, 09:20 PM
Btw, I don't get why every PY65 tube I bought is more stiff than any other paint tube, this is the 3rd tube that is stiff and all my other tubes from the same brand have a viscosity like butter.

Gigalot
12-29-2013, 04:10 AM
They are right. In acrylic paint, which is mural, water based medium, Cadmium pigments are not useful and not permanent. Carbon dioxide and moisture will decompose those cadmiums to a Cadmium sulphate soon. Hansa pigments also seems to be better in basic and solvent/oil free medium.

I just don't know WHY they used Cadmiums in Acrylic paints before? You can take ANY book and there are "cadmium is not useful in mural painting, fades and decompose by atmospheric moisture, oxygen and carbon dioxide attack". Also, this atmospheric oxidation makes water soluble, highly toxic cadmium sulphate and those acrylics can be poisonous before using, even when stored in their jars, where are a lot of water and oxygen due to acrylic binder. Acrylic paint with cadmium pigment is just toxic waste with free cadmium sulphate poison inside it. It is better to ban those acrylics.
It would be reasonable to ban all Water-soluble oil paints with Cadmium pigments as well as Acrylic.

Mythrill
01-04-2014, 12:17 PM
Acrylic paint with cadmium pigment is just toxic waste with free cadmium sulphate poison inside it. It is better to ban those acrylics.
It would be reasonable to ban all Water-soluble oil paints with Cadmium pigments as well as Acrylic.
Hi, Giga!

Most cadmium pigments on the market today have some barium in it. It doesn't make them less brilliant up to 15% of barium; all it does is to decrease covering power and reduce potential human absorption to 5% (instead of around 30% on its chemically pure versions.) However, they're not labeled with the :1 suffix even in good brands.

Considering the safety tradeoffs and the negligible impact on paint quality, I don't mind using (PY35:1) instead of (PY35.) It is much less toxic to the environment too.

And oh, I saw the brochures. Stating that the biggest source of cadmium is from artists' materials is downright false! We all know artists' pigments come from the bigger painting industries (cars, buildings, etc.) and Cadmium is pretty expensive to produce on a small scale. And if we are to be completely environment-friendly, we should ban all synthetic-organic pigments as well, because they need a lot of oil burning to be mass-produced. In this list we would need to include as well, due to the huge amount of oil burning required:
Titanium White, PW6 (not organic, but needs oil burning to be mass-produced.)
All phthalos (PW15, PG7, PG36...)
Pyrroles (e.g PR255, PR254...)
Arylides (PY3, PY74, PY65, PY110...)
Quinacridones (PV19-beta, PV19-gamma...)Of course, these are not the only pigments that would be banned. Pretty much all synthetic-organic pigments would be banned.


Regarding absorption in acrylics: as soon as it dries, it forms a non-soluble film, so any skin absorption would only happen when the pigment is still wet. Compare that to linseed oil, which is easily absorbed by the skin for a few days, if you don't clean it correctly out of your skin.


I guess the media in which cadmiums would be the most dangerous are actually watercolors, because the water evaporates but leaves the cadmium pigment to be absorbed by your skin. And, just as you said, cadmium is soluble on water, so... :)

Gigalot
01-04-2014, 12:58 PM
Cadmium is a byproduct of the production and purification of zinc. If we will stop to use it, the entire cadmium will be released as a toxic waste into the river. 2500 tons, according to kinasi pigture of Cadmium pigment usage! :D
And soon, we will be witnesses in a real ecological catastrophe.


I guess the media in which cadmiums would be the most dangerous are actually watercolors, because the water evaporates but leaves the cadmium pigment to be absorbed by your skin. And, just as you said, cadmium is soluble on water, so... :)

In watercolor Cadmiums are the best pigments :D And a very small amount of pigment needs to paint...I just hope, that pupil use their paint kits with Hansas and not professional paints for serious work.

JPQ
01-11-2014, 11:28 PM
I can avoid cadmiums in paints but in soft pastels seems be impossible if i want some kind colours in soft. only brand which has such hues uses cadmiums i mean brands what i can get somekind autumn hues needs them very likely i mean i dont know what Unison pastels use these exact hues but they use cadmium,cobalt,and earth pigments for example and only real yellows what they use are cadmiums. and i can get similar hues using watercolour and cadmium pigments. I maybe ban them in my paints even i still like them bit more than modern ones. mixes look more natural but this i can think i can solve more practicing. One reason why i like idea replace them is price. and transparency is good thing in watercolour.

Gigalot
01-12-2014, 07:35 AM
Yesterday, I checked the list (item) of pigments manufactured by one of the largest chemical factory in China, pigments for ceramics, for cement, for inks and paint and, surprisingly, there are NO CADMIUMS! You can still buy PO104 molybdate orange, or Chrome Yellow PY34, Cobalt Blue and Ultramarine, a lot of Titanium and Iron Oxides. Even rare earth pigments with cerium or praseodymium for porcelain industry, but do not found Cadmiums.

I think, Cadmium era is ended. Non-Toxic paint totally won. Soon, your Cadmiums will be in legends only.

I put my Cadmiums to an item of "strategic paint materials, needs to artist`s survive" :lol: :wave:

kinasi
01-31-2014, 11:03 PM
I stopped using any earths a few days ago, and I don't seem to care anymore. I just use a lemon, deep yellow, pyrolle, pr122, pthalo blue / green .. and black / white, all of my hues are super high chroma

it takes me 10 seconds to make a burnt sienna..why do I even bother anymore putting it on my palette, I really feel I'm doing something wrong because I'm down to 8 colors now, but I feel more free and at the same time more in control of my palette, I feel I can hop from brand to brand easier too, since I don't need to find a burnt sienna or yellow ochre than looks like brand X or Y

I don't know why I still buy earth now that I feel comfortable making my burnt sienna like this:

I still feel in the back of my mind that I'm doing something wrong, since many ppl seem very comfortable with a large palette, but I feel so much more free with my limited palette

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-Jan-2014/1558522-hjljlllhl.JPG

Gigalot
02-01-2014, 10:39 AM
it takes me 10 seconds to make a burnt sienna..why do I even bother anymore putting it on my palette, I really feel I'm doing something wrong because I'm down to 8 colors now, but I feel more free and at the same time more in control of my palette, I feel I can hop from brand to brand easier too, since I don't need to find a burnt sienna or yellow ochre than looks like brand X or Y


I have a top-quality natural burnt sienna. However, I tried to imitate this paint using other pigments I have. Nope. It is translucent and makes a very pure orange color in a thin glaze layer. I tried my Cadmiums, Strontium yellow, Hansa PY74 to make a close mixture, but got a very poor result.
These mixtures are mud by far, no fire, no translucency, no gradients from very dark brown to a highly saturated orange. Thus, my natural burnt sienna dries perfectly, while pigments, which I used to mix are not such a good driers.

rghirardi
02-01-2014, 03:39 PM
cad yellow deep, is opaque too in their Winton range

If you're writing about Winton's cadmium yellow deep, I find that it is not very opaque. I like the color, but for an area of cadmium yellow deep, it has to be applied several times and is still not very opaque. Adding a little white helps achieve a little opaqueness. I thought all cadmium colors were opaque, but in this instance, it isn't so.

I'd be interested in comments re: cadmium colors and opacity.

kinasi
02-01-2014, 04:17 PM
Hm, cadiums mix relatively low chroma mixtures when I used them coompared to new azo pigments. I also noticed that if you start out with PY74, you quickly drop too much in chroma.

PY74 + a quina is alreaddy much duller than a hansa orange or pyrolle.

Basically, you need to dump your cadmiums =)

Will test if drying shift matters, but I know most azo drying shift is very minimal. Handprint says that natural Burnt sienna can have a very large or very small drying shift, depending on brand.

I was using PR101 tr. b. oxide too a while ago, but in W&N it's so viscous, way more than their other pigments. I tried Rembrandt, don't like it. W&N has consistently the highest chroma pigments, and I keep trying other brands and keep coming back to W&N.

Their Winton student range actually is better to me than many "artists" competitors, it has decent cover power, lots of pigment. Many competitors I tried are really bad, low pigment, low chroma, bad. Sennelier is pretty good too I feel.

Ppl said student brands use filler, I asked W&N about that, there is no filler at all in Winton student paint, only the quality of some pigments is slightly different, and they have less pigment choice in Winton, but they don't use filler.

kinasi
02-02-2014, 06:42 AM
I found a difference when you mix your own umbers and oxide browns. When I'm mixing them myself, the masstone is the same as a thin application....umbers and tr. brown oxid. 101 look much darker in masstone than a thin application. No clue why. Pigments of Pbr7 and 101 oxide are larger than Arylde / pyrolle?

kinasi
02-17-2014, 02:19 AM
I use 6 colors now, (+back and white)

I worried that my gap between quinacridone and phthalo blue would be too large and I kept wondering if I should add ultramarine to get the most vibrant colors.

So I tinted ultramarine. Then tried to get the same color with phthalo blue, which requires phthalo to move considerably more to the red since phthalo is almost cyan.

If Ultramarine was needed in any way, then surely pulling phthalo all the way to ulttramarine and adding white on top of it, should show a chroma difference.

Nope. The top part of oil is ultramarine and white, the bottom is phthalo + quinacridone + white.

The ultramarine has a tiny tiny tiny bit higher chroma, but phthalo is so strong it can easily bridge the gap between quina and cyan without any noticeable chroma loss. Phthalo are awesome.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2014/1558522-fhfkkfkfkf.JPG

Gigalot
02-17-2014, 10:55 AM
I tried to examine what Green Phthalo oil paint contains. I took a small amount of a good Chinese PG7 paint and burnt it. It contains ~40% linseed oil, ~60% white porcelain clay (kaolin) and traced amount of copper. I guess, pigment concentration is ~1-2%.

kinasi
02-17-2014, 11:10 AM
maybe because of it's pigment strength, when I get phthalo on my hands, I can see washign it off how concentrated it is

the only thing that I don't like about ultramarine / phthalo and quina is that their masstone is so dark

even when I tint phthalo or ultramarine, they are way off from the max chroma a blue could be at that value

see.....my guess is because they start so dark, and the opaque titanium takes away a good chunk of it's chroma while whitening

I wonder if I glazed phthalo over white instead of tinting it if I could get a higher chroma

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2014/1558522-asfafafafafaf.jpg

Gigalot
02-17-2014, 11:55 AM
I wonder if I glazed phthalo over white instead of tinting it if I could get a higher chroma

Definitely! This is a reason why I like this Chinese phthalo green. Actually, labeled as Viridian HUE. It contains Kaoline, which can give a transparent body to a phthalo, very useful to make glaze layers. As a compromise, Zinc White (in oil) can mix more chromatic (and fast drying) colors.

kinasi
02-17-2014, 12:09 PM
my titanium white has zinc in it, but it is still extremely opaque

if high value glazes are able to reach much higher chroma than opaque layers, why don't more alla prima painters put a glaze over their most vivid colors

Gigalot
02-17-2014, 12:37 PM
my titanium white has zinc in it, but it is still extremely opaque

if high value glazes are able to reach much higher chroma than opaque layers, why don't more alla prima painters put a glaze over their most vivid colors

All of them like to do.

Just people are thinking, that Monet always did alla prima. He did a lot of layers, which their painting can show well. He also had three studios, where he worked on top of his dried "alla primas".

You can also add thin vivid color over white canvas primer..

kinasi
02-18-2014, 10:15 AM
thanks, I'll experiment with zinc white / mixing white etc and glazing and see what I get

I thought acrylics would be able to keep a higher chroma after addition of titanium white, it suffers the same chroma loss as in oils

adding black or the complement doesn't result in saturation loss for me, but the drop in saturation of titanium white is huge

if you darken there is a loss in chroma, but saturations remains extremely high, but if you lighten a color with titanium, the saturation loss is kind of big

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/1558522-kljlj.JPG

kinasi
02-18-2014, 10:38 AM
from golden, they're the best

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/1558522-464646464.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/1558522-dtgjujdfjd.JPG

kinasi
02-18-2014, 11:11 AM
did paint with only medium and the other one with titanium white

the one lighted with medium has considerably higher chroma than the one lighted with titanium white

(value shift is just titanium white pulling quina to purple, I can fix it in another shot maybe)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/1558522-uuiuuu.jpg

kinasi
02-18-2014, 11:36 AM
hmm, when I compensate for the hue, it recovered it's chroma, thin layer of medium glaze does not give higher chroma than titanium white

both lose considerable chroma

medium is no better than titanium white for me

maybe I'll try over titanium white instead of over canvas next time, but don't expect that much difference

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/1558522-tuotyuotuyototot.jpg

kinasi
02-18-2014, 11:52 AM
my wet itanium white underlayer, will do glaze acrylics with transparent gloss medium VS titanium white in 5 minutes

quinacridone

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/1558522-tyutuotototo.JPG

kinasi
02-18-2014, 12:21 PM
titamium white + quina + hue compensation color

VS

glazed layer with gloss medium + quina

glazing is not any better at maintaining chroma compared to titanium white at high values

all the "transparent layers add vibrance" is just bla bla bla, it depends on the pigment it seems, low value pigment, big loss in chroma if you need to get it to high value, no matter how you paint, glazing does not help

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/1558522-tuotyotototo.JPG

Gigalot
02-18-2014, 01:38 PM
Poppy is mostly PR209 glaze over a pale red underpainting. A small amount of Ultramarine Rose and Cadmium red light are also used. Yellow tulip is Strontium yellow + yellow ochre + Ultra rose alla-prima and Lotus is PR122 +PR209+Cobalt pink+Volkonskoite green alla-prima. White is Zinc-Titanium.
This poppy has a very saturated color. Just eyes ache.

kinasi
02-18-2014, 03:17 PM
that's lovely

Gigalot
02-18-2014, 06:19 PM
I found Volegov on Facebook, he use Winton, Georgian and Titan paints. (according to a picture) As I see, all paints are high chroma synthetic. These synthetic pigments has a non-linear mixing curves, makes more chromatic tints than inorganic pigments. Which paint is Titan? I had never heart about it. He also use Titan oil mediums. Italian Brand? His paintings are very chromatic.

kinasi
02-19-2014, 03:24 AM
current is his original
potential is the max chroma he could have at the same value, manipulated picture in a program

he suffers from chroma loss too at high values, although it doesn't really look like it from the picture until I checked his colors

phthalo start out so dark since they are transparent, and they suffer from a big chroma drop at higher values, even when I glazed, wonder if there are any high value colors with higher chroma than phthalo, my guess is no, in real life when an object gets more light, it is additive, the phthalo colored object will keep it's chroma I think

maybe I should paint something with phthalo blue and shine a light on it, see what happens with the chroma

what is interesting is that I barely get any loss in chroma with darkening, complement nor black cause any significant loss in chroma, "black muds colors"..should be.."white muds colors"

in watercolor I think the same thing happens, my glaze results in chroma loss at high value, since quina starts out dark, like phthalo, it is pigment related, too tired to test a color that starts out at lighter value, but my guess is that hanza or bismuth will keep much of it's chroma at high value, and suffer almost no chroma loss when darkening, but I think they are slightly less good mixers since theey need a bit more opaqueness to have higher value

I think, transparent very high value color = does not exist, transparency, good mixer, but suffers from chroma loss at high value, phthalo, quina, etc...love them, but considerable chroma loss at high value

hanza are better pigments than phthalo and quina I feel, high chroma, keeps chroma at high value, starts out with high value, easier to mix, less tinting power, easier to tell the hue



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2014/1558522-gmjdgfjdfgjdgjdj.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Feb-2014/1558522-tfrjfjfjfjf.JPG

Gigalot
02-19-2014, 05:02 AM
Yes, Yellow and Red paints are better in chroma than Magenta and Blue. This is a reason why I used blue surface. To reach maximum chroma in Blue color using a glaze over it. Yellow and red are good enough anyway. To keep red in high chroma I tried to make pale underpainting for it. As for Yellow, Strontium Yellow can cover blue perfectly. Do not needs underpainting, one layer is good enough.

You can check potentially highest chromatic colors in Photoshop CMY Mode. In RGB Mode colors can be overpowered. But anyway, to reach a highest possible chroma, needed a good white background, thin and opaque. No chalk, no barium sulphate. Just pure Titanium White. Oil can migrate into gesso and less opaque primer can become grayer, or partially gray.

Just interesting to compare in saturation my painting and commercial covers and corks :D Actually they use a highest possible chroma. I examined my painting on sun light and some areas on it are more saturated. This cover loose against UMB glaze.

Gigalot
02-19-2014, 05:37 AM
In real painting we can't use highest chroma too much. Only in limited areas. Because eyes/brain adaptation to color unify our efforts to almost zero.
Modern posters and covers are also so highly saturated, that all our efforts to achieve superiority practically useless. We are surrounded by extremely bright colors. They just sits on our tail. We can't win to increase painting in saturation. This trick is outdated nowadays. I squeezed out of paints almost theoretically possible brightness ... Well, Darwin's evolution theory and scientific stereo effects may help us in art, until them start to begin to use these scientific tricks in food industry, detergent packages and street posters :) ...

kinasi
02-25-2014, 07:12 AM
I used titanium, transparent and zinc white

none of them are any better than titanium at maintaining chroma

if I had to actually sum up my experiments.

-glazing, nor changing whites, has any noticeable effect on chroma

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Feb-2014/1558522-gnjcdgncncncncnc.jpg

kinasi
02-27-2014, 12:45 PM
I don't like PY65 anymore, changed to pyrolle orange.

In W&N artist and Williamsburg it is so hard to handle, it comes out much much too viscous, and the 2 other brands I found it in, pebeo and W&N student Winton, it doesn't have enough chroma.

I don't know why thys arylide is so viscous, I got tired of having a single pigment in my 6 colors that has a completely different viscocity as my other colors, and having to use way more medium for that color to get it to flow. And by the time you get it to flow, it's lost it's vibrance, it's lost it's covering power, and I might as well have used pyrolle red and PY74. PY74 consistency is fine. PY65 is not.

Do you know why Gigalot? Well, I changed to pyrolle orange now, W&N has it, it has a buttery consistency just like my other W&N artist oils, it is semi-opaque, similar consistency to PY74, just opaque enough but not too opaque, gives really clean mixes. Daler-Rowney has it too in single pigment.

kinasi
02-27-2014, 07:00 PM
I don't like PY65 anymore, changed to pyrolle orange.
scrap that I changed back to PY65 but in Winton and pebeo, pyrolle orange is much too red to be useful, it's much too close to pyrolle red, I just won't use PY65 in W&N Artist grade anymore, it's like working with glue

Patrick1
02-28-2014, 02:28 AM
I just used Winton oils PY3 (Lemon Yellow) last night and it was noticeably less opaque than my Artisan Cadmium Yellow Light. A nice color though.

Also, years ago I bought Galeria Cad Yellow Light (or Medium) Hue because it was labeled as opaque. Yet it was more transparent than my Tri-Art PY74 that was labeled semi-opaque. It seems manufacturers don't use an industry-standardized scale for opacity, rather their own relative scale. And maybe not even the same scale for their student vs. artist lines?

kinasi
02-28-2014, 06:41 AM
And maybe not even the same scale for their student vs. artist lines?
Nod, when it says Opaque in Winton, it does not mean the same as opaque in Artist oils, it it a step more transparent from my experience. What is opaque in Winton can be semi-opaque in Aritst oils.

Same seems to be true for acrylics in W&N.

Winton uses slightly more binder (they stressed slightly) and slightly less pigment, which would explain how it is slightly more butter for some colors but also slightly more transparet.

W&N did say in that email that the pigments might be slightly larger in Winton which might make them more opaque, but it doesn't make up for the larger amount of binder, so they still end up more transparent.

Very happy with Winton though.

I might use pyrolle orange agin instead of PY65, lol, I can not make up my mind.

on top PY65..below it pyrolle orange + PY74, PY65 is only a tiny tiny bit higher chroma, but I don't like it's consistency.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Feb-2014/1558522-oijojiojj.JPG

Gigalot
03-03-2014, 04:13 AM
Do you know why Gigalot? Well, I changed to pyrolle orange now, W&N has it, it has a buttery consistency just like my other W&N artist oils, it is semi-opaque, similar consistency to PY74, just opaque enough but not too opaque, gives really clean mixes. Daler-Rowney has it too in single pigment.

I don't know how can PY65 pigment can affect acrylic binder. The main trouble in acrylic is PH changing. PH index must be basic and around ~8-9 Unfortunatelly I do not have any PY65 in my paint collections. The only Arylide I have now, is PY74/PO43 oil paint. Close to PY65 in color. I use it much to paint autumn leaver and fruits. I trust it for full strength and for underpainting. It dries quickly. And I use Cadmiums, Ochre, Strontium yellow on top as a glaze.
I never trust any Arylide for glazing or tint.

kinasi
03-03-2014, 11:54 AM
thanks gigalot

kinasi
03-03-2014, 07:16 PM
even with thinner / medium / alkyd

PY65 still handles terrible

I tried different brands now, another issues is the huge difference in hue, it doesn't seem big in this pic since it's under a yellow light, but trust me, in RL there's a big difference


my pigments I like now in the yellow-orange range

PY74 great pigment, PY83 great pigment, P043 good pigment, P073 great pigment

they all have this perfect balance between handling and opacity/transparency and all so vibrant


PY65 has the vibrance but handles like junk, maybe they are still figuring out how to handle it in paint tubes, not sure

hue differences:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Mar-2014/1558522-bn_mnbbmb.jpg

Mythrill
03-05-2014, 08:35 PM
even with thinner / medium / alkyd

PY65 still handles terrible

I tried different brands now, another issues is the huge difference in hue, it doesn't seem big in this pic since it's under a yellow light, but trust me, in RL there's a big difference


my pigments I like now in the yellow-orange range

PY74 great pigment, PY83 great pigment, P043 good pigment, P073 great pigment

they all have this perfect balance between handling and opacity/transparency and all so vibrant


PY65 has the vibrance but handles like junk, maybe they are still figuring out how to handle it in paint tubes, not sure

hue differences:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Mar-2014/1558522-bn_mnbbmb.jpg

Kinasi, try mixing your PY65 with a surfactant. It'll be much less viscous, and you can control it up to the point of it behaving like watercolor.

Another option is to buy a fluid version of PY65 and keep using heavy body versions of all other colors.

kinasi
03-06-2014, 02:56 AM
Kinasi, try mixing your PY65 with a surfactant. It'll be much less viscous, and you can control it up to the point of it behaving like watercolor.

Another option is to buy a fluid version of PY65 and keep using heavy body versions of all other colors.

thank you, it's oil, it works fine in W&N acrylics now

but you made me try PY65 again, I found it in Lefranc / Bourgois

the consistency is ok now, I have no idea why W&N make it so stiff, all their other colors are not that stiff

their pyrolle orange is too stiff too, W&N has some fetch about making all their oranges stiffer than other colors, lol

also, I found pyrolle orange is much too close to pyrolle red, py65 is exactly between red and yellow, it's perfect

(I don't get why pyrolle red looks so dark on my picture)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Mar-2014/1558522-hteheheh.jpg

Mythrill
03-06-2014, 08:45 AM
thank you, it's oil, it works fine in W&N acrylics now

but you made me try PY65 again, I found it in Lefranc / Bourgois

the consistency is ok now, I have no idea why W&N make it so stiff, all their other colors are not that stiff

their pyrolle orange is too stiff too, W&N has some fetch about making all their oranges stiffer than other colors, lol

also, I found pyrolle orange is much too close to pyrolle red, py65 is exactly between red and yellow, it's perfect

(I don't get why pyrolle red looks so dark on my picture)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Mar-2014/1558522-hteheheh.jpg

Kinasi, sorry. I mentioned a surfactant because I misread and thought you were using acrylics. I see you use oils.

I see what you mean. Although I've had no problems with PY65 in Winsor & Newton's Acrylics (labeled here in acrylics as "Azo Yellow Deep,") I've had trouble with Cobalt Turquoise (PG50.) Big loss of money: the tube suddenly started to go bad and dried completely. I've seen a few reviews in dickblick that had this very problem with the same color on their brand of acrylics.

A few other tubes went almost unusable too: Raw Umber (PBr7,) Gold Ochre (PY42,) and Azo Yellow Medium (PY74.) Raw Sienna (PY42 + PR101) and Permanent Rose (PV19-gamma) are a bit odd in consistency.

It's a shame: while I managed to save all Raw Umber, Gold Ochre (seems like an exclusive shade of Winsor & Newton, so I had to,) and Cobalt Turquoise, eventually I had to throw Azo Yellow Medium (PY74-HS) away. I'm a bit suspicious about using Winsor & Newton's Cobalt Turquoise again, so I bought Cobalt Teal Blue (also PG50) from Daniel Smith.

I learned to no longer trust a single brand. I've heard that the paints that are most stable are Golden's and Liquitex. I got Transparent Yellow Oxide from Golden (PY42) and the consistency is a dream. It doesn't seem to go bad either. Most of the tubes, like Hansa Yellow Medium (PY74-LF,) behave absolutely fine. Unfortunately, their Indanthrone Blue (PB 60) seems to have gone a bit stiff. I've been watching its consistency from time to time, and I hope it won't go bad.

Fortunately for you, oils don't tend to go bad suddenly as acrylics do. If you still have those stiff colors, how about pre-mixing them with a mix of mineral spirits and linseed oil (or some other medium?) This should bring them back to life.

Gigalot
03-06-2014, 12:36 PM
Paint manufacturers use different oils for different colours. The oil binder can contains refined oil, cold pressed oil, stand oil in a different proportions. Major role plays free fatty acids. Optimal concentration of free fatty acids in paint is a very important thing. They also use dispersers, surfactants, stabilizers, extenders, fillers, driers. waxes, resin...e.t.c Who knows what can they add to their PY65 paint formulation? The exact formulation is a totally secret formula.

Mythrill
03-06-2014, 01:57 PM
Paint manufacturers use different oils for different colours. The oil binder can contains refined oil, cold pressed oil, stand oil in a different proportions. Major role plays free fatty acids. Optimal concentration of free fatty acids in paint is a very important thing. They also use dispersers, surfactants, stabilizers, extenders, fillers, driers. waxes, resin...e.t.c Who knows what can they add to their PY65 paint formulation? The exact formulation is a totally secret formula.

Giga, I don't know about dispersers, but if there's one thing they can't add to oil paint it's surfactant. If you do that, the paint will never dry. I tried that when making paint... and got a lot of pigment wasted, much to my dismay.

Gigalot
03-08-2014, 05:56 AM
Giga, I don't know about dispersers, but if there's one thing they can't add to oil paint it's surfactant. If you do that, the paint will never dry. I tried that when making paint... and got a lot of pigment wasted, much to my dismay.
These dispersers and surfactants - wetting agents needs (in minimal amounts) during pigment manufacturing process, to produce fine pigment powder. Not always needs, but some of pigments are very problematic, Prussian Blue e.t.c Some pigment particles can have a lot of organic-inorganic coatings. (Titanium White, Chrome yellow)
Just no reason to add these wetting agents directly to oil paint.

Mythrill
03-08-2014, 08:40 AM
These dispersers and surfactants - wetting agents needs (in minimal amounts) during pigment manufacturing process, to produce fine pigment powder. Not always needs, but some of pigments are very problematic, Prussian Blue e.t.c Some pigment particles can have a lot of organic-inorganic coatings. (Titanium White, Chrome yellow)
Just no reason to add these wetting agents directly to oil paint.

Oh, I see. So you add surfactants during manufacturing and let the pigments dry and / or wash them?

Gigalot
03-08-2014, 03:02 PM
I don't know a detailed modern Prussian Blue manufacturing process. It might be a manufacturers secret. This pigment needs a special care.
But some problematic pigments are sold as a pigment paste to prevent aggregates.