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SanDL
06-26-2001, 06:02 PM
Well I'd like to know more about using "Liquin" to help speed the process of drying layers. I never know how much to use! Alternatively, does anyone have a recipe for a fast drying medium? Here is a sample of a small piece I have been struggling with...Its oil on canvas on plywood, I'd say it's 4X8".

Verdaccio
06-26-2001, 07:21 PM
I use liquin in my underpainting. I use 1/5th liquin to paint. So, if you have a pile of paint, divide it into fourths and then add liquin equal to one of the fourths. THe theory here is that you never want to have more than 20% of any kind of medium in your paint unless you are glazing.

JeanineJ
06-26-2001, 07:28 PM
Cobalt Drier by Grumbacher workd much better for me than others which really "gum up" my palette.

SanDL
06-26-2001, 08:29 PM
Cobalt drier? Is that the very liquidy blue stuff with all the warning labels and you only use a drop of in other medium recipes? How do you use it?

ldallen
06-26-2001, 09:17 PM
Yes, it is. I bought it once, opened it and took it right back to the store. It almost knocked me over. It's too strong a chemical for me.

So far I prefer Copal medium to Liquin (Sorry, Michael). I do use Linquin for my miniature paintings, but copal usually dries to a workable service overnight, or at least within two to three days. So I guess it depends on what you want to do with it. But I'm in the experimental stage, too. I like the feel of Copal and way it mixes with the paint for a more fluid application. It just seems more appropriate to fine art painting. I have also purchased Old Holland Cold Pressed Linseed Oil which was highly recommended by one of our old pros that I'm planning to try soon. My question is - what is the shelf life of all this stuff??

Verdaccio
06-26-2001, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by ldallen

So far I prefer Copal medium to Liquin (Sorry, Michael).

No appology is necessary. Everyone has things that they prefer and that work for them. :)

Leopoldo1
06-27-2001, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by SanDL
Alternatively, does anyone have a recipe for a fast drying medium?

Maroger it dries overnight well. :oL

ldallen
06-27-2001, 08:48 AM
Hi Leo,

I LOVE Maroger. I used to make it myself years ago but I found it darkened as the paintings aged (and not aged that much). But I think I was probably doing something wrong with it. Eventually, I'll order some from Rob and try it, but I have to use up some of what I have first. I got his Belize but I haven't used it enough to know if I like it yet. It seems "thin?"

LarrySeiler
06-27-2001, 09:24 AM
Sandl....

I'll let you read the copal thread to get the gist of all that, but that's what I'd recommend right along with Idallen!

I have Japanese cobalt drier....and it is toxic stuff.

Also...like liquin, it pretty much dries on the outside, forms a skin and works its way in. Not the best chemistry with oil paint. Copal...real copal, will attach itself to the pigments at the molecular level and dry uniformly.

I don't use a great deal of copal...as I'm more concerned about the consistency of my paint which is "buttery"...and maybe Idallen here would know and be able to testify to more, but the paint doesn't dry as fast or over night the way it does with the purple cobalt drier...but much safer! The way I use the copal, it takes about 3-5 days. I also use it not so much to hurry drying, which it does as a natural siccative...but for its qualities as a medium and varnish.


Larry

Leopoldo1
06-27-2001, 09:57 AM
I think it is best to develope the patience and let your pigments dry accordingly. All driers can be dangerous if used improperly. Cobalt can be dangerous because it dries from the outside in, forming a skin on top where it dries faster. Lead driers like black oil(one of the ingredients in Maroger) and Doak's liquid lead dry from the inside out which is more desirable. David Lefell uses maroger exclusively and his work speaks for itself. Below is a painting with maroger I did 11 years ago and photographed recently, the colors today still remain intense. :oL

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jun-2001/trout.jpg

Titanium
06-27-2001, 10:34 AM
Milt ,

excellent job !!!

Larry ,

copal medium should be 35 copal colophany to 65 oil .
[ I make the stuff for a friend ].

Some manufacturers , cut it with Lavender oil and I have
also been told - possibly - {clove or rosemary [ these give
serious dispersal effects on painting oils and also
darken coats. ]}

If your resin is left with insufficient pigment in it , the
browning that comes with age [ in a resin ] , will yellow
or seriously darken a painting.

Resins also do not suspend pigments , causing them
to drop to the bottom of the vehicle they are in .
Lead White or Zinc White may alter this as they also
form soaps in paint and increase suspension.

Remember also that commercial paints are cut with
alumina hydrate or blanc fixe , and only seem to be fully
pigmented . So what works for a hand muller [ only oil
and pigment ] may/ will not work for a commercial tube
of paint .

Ralph Mayer has a chart showing this .

To All ,

if your using Liquin , your using Cobalt Drier . It's the
drier for Liquin , and it is a top of the coat drier .
The underneath still has to cure for 6 months + ,
especially if your using any Safflower / Sunflower in there.

Lead is a Through Drier [ as stated by Milt ] , slower process
and still needs to cure [ 6 months + ] , flexible dry .

Maganese is a half half , through drier and top of the coat
drier , but a brittle dry .

Driers never stop working , they are true Catalysts.

Lead White , Rare Earths and Zirconium compunds are
all Through Driiers .
However Lead White has the track record and it lasts.
Titanium

Mario
06-27-2001, 11:11 AM
Super painting Leopoldo....how do you see your progress over the past several years? I'm wondering of the changes an artist experiences after reaching that level of proficiency..thanks

LarrySeiler
06-27-2001, 11:20 AM
Never worked with Maroger, but that aside...nice piece Leopoldo!

I can relate, as of course you probably know...to this piece.

Was it done for a state competition, just curious?

My use of copal is sparingly done. Just a couple drops for a 1-2" ribbon of pigment from the tube.

I saw Ron's demo, (which was excellent) on portraiture at his studioproducts site....and never heard of the process of applying medium directly to the board as a layer and <b>then</b> painting pigment directly into it. Always mixed my colors with the medium even as a glaze, then applied.

I would suppose...the suspended pigment, and yellowing with age would be greatly more critical with Ron's approach.

I recall looking and studying Rembrandt's "The Officer" and those rich darks he had. Upon close look, you can see nearly 10-30 layers (i would suspect) of near transparent glaze, and pigment suspended at various depths. Was quite interesting. Any idea what was his medium of choice, and would we assume it yellowed with time? Garsh...the colors and richness appear so good, can't imagine it having yellowed, and if it has....wow, what colors they must have first been! -Larry

Luis Guerreiro
06-27-2001, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by SanDL
Cobalt drier? Is that the very liquidy blue stuff with all the warning labels and you only use a drop of in other medium recipes? How do you use it?

I have been using Cobalt drier for some time and it seems OK. There is Cobalt Oleate (or Oleanate), which absolutely stinks and Cobalt Naphthenate wich doesn't smell so much. An average of about 5 drops per medium total volume of 2 1/2 fl. Oz should be ok. A maximum of 7 drops for the same volume can be used I think, without dangerous results. I prepare the medium and then add the drier at the very end. If the medium is hot, allow to cool down to room temperature before adding the drier.
When preparing a medium, carefully measure ingredients by volume unless otherwise indicated and calculate the number of drops for the total batch to maintain the rate of drier.
:) Have fun:)

Titanium
06-27-2001, 04:50 PM
Larry ,

Scott is more on the ball where Rembrandt is concerned .

I can tell you that they found linseed and walnut oil , gum and some egg , no resins. The oil had been Heat-Bodied at times.
Chalk to give body and translucency to glaze-like layers.
The Rembrandt book has a list of his pigments as well .
Titanium

ldallen
06-27-2001, 07:27 PM
Leo, that piece is terrific. Reminds of of the Morakami Gardens, I took a similar picture there of one of the fish ponds.

According to the book I have, "Rembrandt the Painter at Work," he also used ground glass and ground charcoal. From what Van de Wetering, the author, says - they have never been able to figure out exactly WHAT he used, except that he experimented with a number of different mediums.

As far as Garrett's Copal is concerned I use only a very small amount and it's JUST dry enough the next day to work if I want to, but sometimes I do wait a day or two. I've been using a lot of umber in my paintings (like mixing umber and ultramarine for black or umber and yellow for green) so maybe that's why it's drying a little faster.

Leopoldo1
06-27-2001, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Mario
....how do you see your progress over the past several years? I'm wondering of the changes an artist experiences after reaching that level of proficiency..thanks

Thank you Mario,

I always satisfy myself first, not what a vendor of my art would like me to create, It is always the most rewarding regardless of the monetary benefits. I am forunate to not have to make my living on art sales. I began a dozen years or so ago with rendering paintings into very photographic images. I remember people commenting "boy that looks just like photograph!" I now look for a more painterly approach if that makes sense and no longer blend but try not to move that first load of paint more than three times, one is better, before picking up another load to marry against that laid down first stroke. I am now 54 years of age and I have lost the patience to render exactly. I find there are signatures to a painting that are more profound for me with this method. When the process of oil painting goes quickly I know it is working. To slave over a painting is too much work anymore and I become bored. The painting below took months. I can't do that anymore. :oL

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jun-2001/steelhead.jpg

Leopoldo1
06-27-2001, 09:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lseiler
I can relate, as of course you probably know...to this piece.
Was it done for a state competition, just curious?

This was done for the entry in the Washington State Trout Stamp contest. The judges liked it but were critical of the adipose fin close to the tail fin. Looked mishapened!

I saw Rob's demo, (which was excellent) on portraiture at his studioproducts site....and never heard of the process of applying medium directly to the board as a layer and <b>then</b> painting pigment directly into it. Always mixed my colors with the medium even as a glaze, then applied.

I always mix a little medium in all the paint nuts so they all have the same feel, neither short or long, all like the consistancy of sour cream. This way everything is flowing at the same level. I don't want to stop if it is too short and then add medium, I lose my rythym.

I would suppose...the suspended pigment, and yellowing with age would be greatly more critical with Ron's approach.

I don't know if that would be the case or not (yellowing). Rob's technique makes good sense, creating a lubricating surface. The medium's chemical reaction still bonds but I believe not as readily than if all pigments were throughly mixed with medium.

Thanks Iseiler, :oL

LarrySeiler
06-28-2001, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leopoldo
<b> I am now 54 years of age and I have lost the patience to render exactly. I find there are signatures to a painting that are more profound for me with this method. When the process of oil painting goes quickly I know it is working. To slave over a painting is too much work anymore and I become bored. The painting below took months. I can't do that anymore.</b>

I'm 47 years of age Leopoldo. I still put out an occasional piece for wildlife art competition, as oddly enough...it gets my painterly landscape plein airs and in-studio pieces in new doors as I maintain my reputation in the old genre. New galleries don't want the wildlife art, but they figure.."the guy must be good!" so they inevitably always want the new work.

Below..I have an older work of mine that required nearly 300 hours of work.

So...what is this Leopoldo? Is it at a certain age we lose patience, eyes struggle to see more? Do we <i>need</i> proving ourselves with impressing others less because we've become more assured and secure in ourselves...and lacking patience comes thereafter because we just care a bit less to impress? I mean....you express what I've said a good number of times myself. I know what I can do...I've been there during the whole grueling process, and now I'm excited to see what the illusion of well placed fewer brushstrokes can deliver.

I can still put out a piece in the old style....but, don't get excited to.

Will history thus argue that our talents peaked at a certain older age, having lost the will to continue to prove ourselves in that older <i>slavish</i> manner? -Larry

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Jun-2001/Snowy_Owl.jpg

Leopoldo1
06-28-2001, 03:08 PM
Very nice piece Larry!

I believe I can sit with you in the same circle regarding your thoughts. I do believe once I accomplish something or become proficient in it, to repeat over and over again that method becomes routine and I must look elsewhere to stimulate any creative jucies that are still might be responsive with new challenges, etc. I like your approach to plein aire and that is something I have only begun to tap into. It takes a different disclipline and you know all too well the challenges of outdoor painting. :oL

IRDOC
07-03-2001, 02:52 PM
sounds like you need to be let nature take it's course in the drying
area, maybe acrylics would be better you can dry it quickly with a hair dryer. then paint what your in a hurry to paint.