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Mythrill
11-16-2013, 10:03 PM
Hello, everyone!

I was doing the color wheel exercise today, and I was wondering about the beauty of the classic palette – subdued colors, but still really soothing to the eye. However, as you probably know, the classic palette (based on RYB) doesn't give us nice violets. So, how to expand the range of a classic palette without losing its spirit?

I've reconstituted the exercises in my computer, trying to match the colors as closely as possible to the real ones. This included picking up samples from the real colors (color picker tool.)

Here's the reconstituted modern color palette. The primaries are "Quinacridone Magenta" (PR122,) "Lemon Yellow" (PY3,) and Phthalo Blue Red Shade (PB 15:1.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2013/96427-Modern_Color_Wheel.gif


Not surprisingly, the result is very balanced throughout the spectrum. Because the blue is not as saturated, the greens are not as intense as they would be with Phthalo Blue Green Shade (PB15:3,) but it's a negligible price to pay: the greens are more natural, and the purples are more intense.

Then, I tried to reconstitute a classic palette. The colors are Natural Red Iron Oxide (PR102,) Lapis Lazuli (PB29, natural,) and Nickel Titanium Yellow (PY53) replacing Naples Yellow (light shade.)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2013/96427-Classic_Color_Wheel.gif

As you can see, the classic color palette (RYB) gives beautiful orange-reds and grayed blues and greens, but it's not good with violets. If one was lucky – and didn't worry about fading – they could probably use Alizarin Crimson (PR83) or Rose Madder (NR9,) if they were lucky to find it.

For those who want a "classic" color harmony (subdued colors, but not muddy,) how to minimize the problem? We can work around it by replacing magenta with other 3 "primary" colors:
Cool violet: ranges blue-violet up to red-violet.
Warm violet: ranges from red-violet to orange-red.
Orange-red: ranges from orange-red to yellow.Here's the "neoclassic palette" with 5 pigments: Potter's Pink (PR233) as a warm violet, Natural Red Oxide (PY102) as an orange-red, PY53 as a lemon yellow, Lapis (PB29, natural) as "cyan," and Ultramarine Violet Red Shade (PV15) as a cool violet.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2013/96427-Neoclassic_Color_Wheel.gif


It's not perfect, but I think the range is much better than before!

And what about you guys? What do you think of this approach for a subdued color wheel?

WFMartin
11-16-2013, 10:47 PM
I think that subdued versions of Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow (the primary colors), and subdued versions of Red, Green, and Blue (the secondary colors) placed on a color wheel appropriately toward the center, from the outer ring of the color wheel should be very scientific plots for these colors.

Subdued versions of colors are lower chroma than the pure colors, and therefore, they plot closer to center of the wheel than higher chroma, more pure colors plot.

Every color you've indicated has its own, specific location on a "normal" color wheel, and can be positioned appropriately [and extraordinarily accurately] within the limits (outer ring) of the standard, color wheel, with Cyan being opposite Red, Magenta being opposite Green, and Yellow being opposite Blue (or "Violet", if that is a more accepted term).

That which you are proposing makes perfect sense, and each color you have displayed can be located precisely on any scientific, two-dimensional color wheel, without any undue speculation whatsoever, regarding their precise location (plot). However, one needs a scientific color analyzing instrument to do so, rather than doing so by pure intuition.

opainter
11-17-2013, 12:25 AM
Hi Mythrill!

The results of your color wheel experiments are interesting to me. In my current acrylics palette of ten colors, I also (!) have both Potters Pink (PR233, Winsor & Newton) and Ultramarine Violet (PV15, Golden), and it's for the same reason that you have them: to get good violets. I was wondering if my choices were overkill in my focus on mixing good violets, but since you are also thinking the same way, it confirms my decision! I also have synthetic Red Oxide (PR101, Golden), and per our previous discussion of the merits of transparent vs. opaque formulations, I have both on hand to try.

Perhaps it is true, what they say, that great minds think alike!

opainter
11-17-2013, 03:09 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2013/96427-Neoclassic_Color_Wheel.gif
It's not perfect, but I think the range is much better than before!

And what about you guys? What do you think of this approach for a subdued color wheel?

I had trouble mixing some of the intermediate colors on your wheel using the five colors that you gave. I found that the following colors "did the trick."
Potters Pink (PR233) - no change
Natural Red Oxide (PY102) - instead substitute the two colors ...
Quinacridone Red (PV19) - place adjacent to Potters Pink
Aureolin Hue (PY3 / PY73 / PBr7 / PY42) - place adjacent to Titanate Yellow
Titanate Yellow (PY53) - no change
Anthraquinone Blue (PB60) - instead
Ultramarine Violet (PV15) - no changeMaybe your natural Red Oxide (PR102) matches the color you have shown at #2, but my artificial Red Oxide (PR101) does not. It is too low in chromaticity. (I tried both the opaque and transparent versions; neither matched.) But I found that Quinacridone Red and Aureolin Hue could be mixed to produce a good match. Also, the adjacent reds can be matched by mixing the Quinacridone Red with the Potters Pink, and the adjacent yellows can be matched by mixing Aureolin Hue with the Titanate Yellow.

Maybe your natural Lapis Lazuli (PB29) matches the color you have shown at #4, but my artificial (and much less-expensive!) Ultramarine Blue (PB29) does not. But I found that Anthraquinone Blue works well in its place, and that it can be mixed with the colors on either side to produce the intermediate adjacent colors.

Note that the pigments listing I have for Aureolin Hue specifically applies to Golden's version, which is the one that I'd suggest using.

Let me know what you think about these substitutions!

0chre
11-17-2013, 05:59 AM
What you're talking about is basically choosing a gamut, the range of colors used (in a painting). The possible gamut depends on the lighting conditions in your painting (you can't have a very saturated yellow in blue light, for instance (I'm talking about quite strict realism here)) and therefore will vary from painting to painting. Starting with an overall subdued palette instead of the full color wheel restricts your range of possible gamuts and therefore the range of possible lighting situations. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, because with the palette you chose you still have a lot of options and it's easier to achieve harmony (beautiful paintings can be and have been produced with (very) limited palettes), but it's good to be aware of the relationship between gamut and light.

If you want harmony and balance in your colors, without restricting your possibilities (by using the full color wheel), you can use James Gurney's method of gamut masking (http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.nl/2011/09/part-1-gamut-masking-method.html). I've found it extremely useful and practical.

Mythrill
11-17-2013, 06:02 AM
I think that subdued versions of Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow (the primary colors), and subdued versions of Red, Green, and Blue (the secondary colors) placed on a color wheel appropriately toward the center, from the outer ring of the color wheel should be very scientific plots for these colors.

Subdued versions of colors are lower chroma than the pure colors, and therefore, they plot closer to center of the wheel than higher chroma, more pure colors plot.

Every color you've indicated has its own, specific location on a "normal" color wheel, and can be positioned appropriately [and extraordinarily accurately] within the limits (outer ring) of the standard, color wheel, with Cyan being opposite Red, Magenta being opposite Green, and Yellow being opposite Blue (or "Violet", if that is a more accepted term).

That which you are proposing makes perfect sense, and each color you have displayed can be located precisely on any scientific, two-dimensional color wheel, without any undue speculation whatsoever, regarding their precise location (plot). However, one needs a scientific color analyzing instrument to do so, rather than doing so by pure intuition.

Hi, Martin! First of all, thanks for your advice!

I don't have a color measure device, so, to do a rough calculation with the actual pigments, I used the "ideal" color wheel as a reference and placed the pigments that I wanted to use as my "primaries" close to the color they seemed to match. I also inscribed a geometric picture within the circle so I could place them equidistantly. When reproducing the simulation in my computer, I used the color catalog in dickblick (as my scanner always tends to distort colors in the "magenta" range and flatten yellows.) Is there any device that would be reasonably cheap to a layperson (and more precise) that you would recommend?

Regarding color theory, those color wheel exercises are things we do once or twice, but we do take for granted later on. Doing it again, I saw I was overconfident. I was thinking of buying Color Choices: Making Color Sense Out of color Theory, by Stephen Quiller. What do you think of it?

Mythrill
11-17-2013, 06:36 AM
I had trouble mixing some of the intermediate colors on your wheel using the five colors that you gave. I found that the following colors "did the trick."
Potters Pink (PR233) - no change
Natural Red Oxide (PY102) - instead substitute the two colors ...
Quinacridone Red (PV19) - place adjacent to Potters Pink
Aureolin Hue (PY3 / PY73 / PBr7 / PY42) - place adjacent to Titanate Yellow
Titanate Yellow (PY53) - no change
Anthraquinone Blue (PB60) - instead
Ultramarine Violet (PV15) - no changeMaybe your natural Red Oxide (PR102) matches the color you have shown at #2, but my artificial Red Oxide (PR101) does not. It is too low in chromaticity. (I tried both the opaque and transparent versions; neither matched.) But I found that Quinacridone Red and Aureolin Hue could be mixed to produce a good match. Also, the adjacent reds can be matched by mixing the Quinacridone Red with the Potters Pink, and the adjacent yellows can be matched by mixing Aureolin Hue with the Titanate Yellow.

Maybe your natural Lapis Lazuli (PB29) matches the color you have shown at #4, but my artificial (and much less-expensive!) Ultramarine Blue (PB29) does not. But I found that Anthraquinone Blue works well in its place, and that it can be mixed with the colors on either side to produce the intermediate adjacent colors.

Note that the pigments listing I have for Aureolin Hue specifically applies to Golden's version, which is the one that I'd suggest using.

Let me know what you think about these substitutions!
Hi, opainter!

I'm glad you pointed out your problems and workarounds. The reason I specified the pigment in detail is exactly because their natural and synthetic versions differ: for instance, in acrylics, PR102 is similar to cadmium scarlet (but desatured,) and the synthetic opaque equivalent is almost always much bluer, while the synthetic transparent equivalent is too orange. Quinacridone Red (PV19-gamma red shade, I assume,) is too saturated, and so it looks "off" with the compared to the rest of the color wheel. The same applies to Indanthrone Blue (PB60,) and possibly to your Aureolin Hue (in tints.)

Here are a few inexpensive suggestions:
"Red-Orange:" Winsor & Newton's Light Red (PR102.) It's the only natural light red in acrylics that has this very specific hue (and it's series 1 in their color range!) If you can't find or afford it, I suggest mixing yellow ochre (PY42 or PY43) to Cadmium Scarlet / Cadmium Red Light (PR108,) or some Transparent Yellow Oxide (PY42) to Opaque Red Iron Oxide (PR101,) in this order of (probable) effectiveness.
"Cyan:" I use Daniel Smith's version, which isn't really the best grade of Lapis Lazuli, but the ashes. It's a similar to a middle blue (similar to Cobalt Blue, but less saturated.) It's around $19 per tube. If you can't get it, try mixing your French Ultramarine (PB29) with a small amount of Phthalo Blue (PB15:3, if possible) and Black (any will do, but Bone Black, PBk9, is the best all-around choice.) A cheaper, more effective hue to replace it in Golden's line is Azurite Hue (PB15:1 / PBr7 / PW4.) If you want to keep using Indanthrone (PB60,) I suggest mixing it with Phthalo Blue (PB15:1 or PB15:3) and with a touch of Black.
"Orange-Yellow:" I was checking Golden's Aureolin Hue (PY73 / PY3 / PY42 / PBr7). It's a nice desaturated color in masstone, but it jumps slightly in tone if you tint it. A good alternative to Titanate Yellow itself (PY53) is to simply use Yellow Ochre – preferably PY43, but PY42 Opaque might also work. If you want transparency and you're fine with some jumping in chroma, I would suggest Transparent Yellow Oxide (PY42,) which would simulate the classical high-grade ochres from the past (for a very inexpensive price – that's why I like it!) and give you more natural hues.

Mythrill
11-17-2013, 06:44 AM
What you're talking about is basically choosing a gamut, the range of colors used (in a painting). The possible gamut depends on the lighting conditions in your painting (you can't have a very saturated yellow in blue light, for instance (I'm talking about quite strict realism here)) and therefore will vary from painting to painting. Starting with an overall subdued palette instead of the full color wheel restricts your range of possible gamuts and therefore the range of possible lighting situations. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, because with the palette you chose you still have a lot of options and it's easier to achieve harmony (beautiful paintings can be and have been produced with (very) limited palettes), but it's good to be aware of the relationship between gamut and light.

If you want harmony and balance in your colors, without restricting your possibilities (by using the full color wheel), you can use James Gurney's method of gamut masking (http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.nl/2011/09/part-1-gamut-masking-method.html). I've found it extremely useful and practical.

Hi, 0chre!

I guess the color wheel I propose is a primitive form of gamut masking. Primitive, because it doesn't have the more systematic (and certainly sound theory) approach James Gurney suggests. I certainly feel very tempted to do a more sophisticated color wheel (with color desaturation as he did there,) and select a color gamut from it.

0chre
11-17-2013, 11:28 AM
I certainly feel very tempted to do a more sophisticated color wheel (with color desaturation as he did there,) and select a color gamut from it.You won't be sorry if you try it out, I think! I know it has helped me tremendously with understanding and using color. Some parts seem a bit difficult in the beginning, but once you understand it, it's a really easy and practical way of planning your colors.

opainter
11-18-2013, 09:54 PM
Quinacridone Red (PV19-gamma red shade, I assume,) is too saturated, and so it looks "off" with the compared to the rest of the color wheel. The same applies to Indanthrone Blue (PB60,) and possibly to your Aureolin Hue (in tints.)

"Red-Orange:" Winsor & Newton's Light Red (PR102.) It's the only natural light red in acrylics that has this very specific hue (and it's series 1 in their color range!) If you can't find or afford it, I suggest mixing yellow ochre (PY42 or PY43) to Cadmium Scarlet / Cadmium Red Light (PR108,) or some Transparent Yellow Oxide (PY42) to Opaque Red Iron Oxide (PR101,) in this order of (probable) effectiveness.

"Orange-Yellow:" I was checking Golden's Aureolin Hue (PY73 / PY3 / PY42 / PBr7). It's a nice desaturated color in masstone, but it jumps slightly in tone if you tint it. A good alternative to Titanate Yellow itself (PY53) is to simply use Yellow Ochre – preferably PY43, but PY42 Opaque might also work. If you want transparency and you're fine with some jumping in chroma, I would suggest Transparent Yellow Oxide (PY42,) which would simulate the classical high-grade ochres from the past (for a very inexpensive price – that's why I like it!) and give you more natural hues.
I had forgotten about W&N's Light Red (as well as the fact that it is PR102), and was trying to emulate this color (as it is shown on your color wheel) using Quinacridone Red (PV19) + Aureolin Hue (PY3 / PY73 / PBr7 / PY42) in a 1:4 mixture. I think the mixture nails this color perfectly, but then there is the "little" matter of Quinacridone Red being completely outside the subdued gamut that you're trying to achieve! I would go with W&N's Light Red (PR102) just as you suggested, and I would not get Quinacridone Red. Aureolin Hue, on the other hand, nails the color on your color wheel that is halfway between Light Red (PR102) and Titanate Yellow (PY53). I'm wondering whether you can get this color from a direct mix of Light Red + Titanate Yellow (?). Hopefully you can, but if you can't, Aureolin Hue looks like a better match (to my eyes, anyway) than either PY42 or PY43, both of which (at least in Golden's formulations) appear to be browner than this color.

Quinacridone Red (PV19-gamma red shade, I assume,) is too saturated, and so it looks "off" with the compared to the rest of the color wheel. The same applies to Indanthrone Blue (PB60,) and possibly to your Aureolin Hue (in tints.)
"Cyan:" I use Daniel Smith's version, which isn't really the best grade of Lapis Lazuli, but the ashes. It's a similar to a middle blue (similar to Cobalt Blue, but less saturated.) It's around $19 per tube. If you can't get it, try mixing your French Ultramarine (PB29) with a small amount of Phthalo Blue (PB15:3, if possible) and Black (any will do, but Bone Black, PBk9, is the best all-around choice.) A cheaper, more effective hue to replace it in Golden's line is Azurite Hue (PB15:1 / PBr7 / PW4.) If you want to keep using Indanthrone (PB60,) I suggest mixing it with Phthalo Blue (PB15:1 or PB15:3) and with a touch of Black.
I don't know if my local Dick Blick carries Daniel Smith. It might be worth checking. I did look at Azurite Hue before looking at Anthraquinone Blue (PB60), and it seemed to be a good news/bad news color. The good news being that Azurite Hue mixes with Titanate Yellow (PY53) produced good greens matching the colors on your color wheel. The bad news being that Azurite Hue mixes with Ultramarine Violet (PV15) tended to be much grayer than the colors on your color wheel. I did not notice this discrepancy with Anthraquinone Blue, which is why I recommended it.

Thanks for your nice post. :thumbsup: We're all learning here. I will guarantee you that I've got W&N Light Red (PR102) on my shopping list. I plan to try your neoclassical palette myself, and - who knows? - I might even like it!

Mythrill
11-19-2013, 11:19 AM
I had forgotten about W&N's Light Red (as well as the fact that it is PR102), and was trying to emulate this color (as it is shown on your color wheel) using Quinacridone Red (PV19) + Aureolin Hue (PY3 / PY73 / PBr7 / PY42) in a 1:4 mixture. I think the mixture nails this color perfectly, but then there is the "little" matter of Quinacridone Red being completely outside the subdued gamut that you're trying to achieve! I would go with W&N's Light Red (PR102) just as you suggested, and I would not get Quinacridone Red. Aureolin Hue, on the other hand, nails the color on your color wheel that is halfway between Light Red (PR102) and Titanate Yellow (PY53). I'm wondering whether you can get this color from a direct mix of Light Red + Titanate Yellow (?). Hopefully you can, but if you can't, Aureolin Hue looks like a better match (to my eyes, anyway) than either PY42 or PY43, both of which (at least in Golden's formulations) appear to be browner than this color.



I don't know if my local Dick Blick carries Daniel Smith. It might be worth checking. I did look at Azurite Hue before looking at Anthraquinone Blue (PB60), and it seemed to be a good news/bad news color. The good news being that Azurite Hue mixes with Titanate Yellow (PY53) produced good greens matching the colors on your color wheel. The bad news being that Azurite Hue mixes with Ultramarine Violet (PV15) tended to be much grayer than the colors on your color wheel. I did not notice this discrepancy with Anthraquinone Blue, which is why I recommended it.

Thanks for your nice post. :thumbsup: We're all learning here. I will guarantee you that I've got W&N Light Red (PR102) on my shopping list. I plan to try your neoclassical palette myself, and - who knows? - I might even like it!
Hi, opainter!

I'm glad you liked the post. :)

I suppose I could get a hue of Aureolin by mixing PY74 to PY42, which is what golden does to some extent, or, for better mid-range greens, a bit of Quinacridone Gold (PO48 + PY150) to Transparent Yellow Oxide (PY42.) The problem is that these mixes aren't in the "lemon" gamut as Nickel Titanium Yellow (PY53) is. I guess that I could add a "middle" and "deep" yellow gamut to the wheel by mixing Chrome Titanate Yellow (PBr24) with PY53 in different proportions. This mix is almost a perfect clone of the traditional Naples Yellow (PY41,) except they're not as bright, because they have Titanium, which makes derivative pigments a bit more chalky, and don't have lead, which makes all derivative pigments brighter.

Also, mixes with this palette are quite tricky. You should never use Ultramarine Violet (PV15) with Nickel Titanate Yellow to generate greens (as it is much closer to a true violet, thus making your greens indeed much grayer.) Instead, you should use your Azurite Hue or a mix of PB15:3 or PB15:1 with black (any) and a touch of PW6.

If your goal is using Ultramarine Violet as a true violet (to neutralize PY53 and generate tones closer to the ochre gamut,) then you should consider making Yellow Ochre (PY42 or PY43, depending on your taste) as your primary yellow or using it exclusively for the ochre gamut (with different colors to make it more interesting, if you want.) The purpose of PV15 here is almost exclusively to produce violets.

I'm considering make a more elaborate color wheel about this, but I'd either have to get much bigger paper (to easily draw all the gamut of the "primaries" by hand) or using a computer to create just the shape of the wheel more precisely and manually painting over it.)

rghirardi
11-21-2013, 01:28 PM
Perhaps off topic, but speaking about color wheels, I'd like to present a Psychological Color Wheel proposed by my old design instructor, Calvin Harlan. Sorry for the quality of the photo.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2013/28705-Harlans_psychological_color_wheel.jpg

opainter
11-23-2013, 11:24 PM
I find that illustration amusing: it looks like an alien having a headache! I'm still trying to figure it out.

opainter
12-12-2013, 04:30 AM
Here's the "neoclassic palette" with 5 pigments: Potter's Pink (PR233) as a warm violet, Natural Red Oxide (PY102) as an orange-red, PY53 as a lemon yellow, Lapis (PB29, natural) as "cyan," and Ultramarine Violet Red Shade (PV15) as a cool violet.



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Nov-2013/96427-Neoclassic_Color_Wheel.gif






I just came across an article written by an artist (a guest writer on a blog) who uses some of these neoclassical colors in an actual painting, and thought people might be interested in it.

Here is a link (http://oilcolorpalettes.blogspot.com/2013/10/dot-bunn-circular-palette.html) to this article.

The artist is Dot Bunn, who uses colors that closely approximate 1, 2, and 5 from the color wheel above in a limited palette. Instead of colors 3 and 4, Dot uses a greenish-leaning yellow and a green, and there's also black and white on the palette.

The painting shown at the bottom of this article clearly has a classical "feel" to it.

Gigalot
12-12-2013, 12:36 PM
Number 1 can be also Ultramarine Rose PR259, but this pigment dulls in mixture with yellow so much, that any transparent iron oxides in this color range can show much better hue purity. Ultramarine rose +yellow = Brown
What about Potters pink? How much dull is it?

karenlee
12-12-2013, 12:37 PM
Great experiments! I love the neoclassic palette with 5 pigments.

opainter
12-12-2013, 09:59 PM
Number 1 can be also Ultramarine Rose PR259, but this pigment dulls in mixture with yellow so much, that any transparent iron oxides in this color range can show much better hue purity. Ultramarine rose +yellow = Brown
What about Potters pink? How much dull is it?

It is a clear, but very grayish, pink. I regard it as a good color for toning the canvas, but on my palette I prefer a red that is darker and higher in chroma. It is called "Potters pink" because it is used in pottery. Considering that, I think it would make the perfect color to tone the canvas used to paint a bouquet of red flowers. I've got that in the back of my mind to do sometime.

Gigalot
12-13-2013, 12:08 PM
Thank you, Opainter! Seems to be more popular pigment in watercolor, even Rublev sells Potters pink as a water-based suspension, not a powder! In oil it might be deeper in color. Thanks to pottery industry, we have a nice pigment.
As Cezanne said, nothing can be more similar in shape to a human had than good ceramic pot. Therefore, I think, this color can be a good choice in a portrait painting. Also in realistic landscape painting.

Mythrill
12-14-2013, 05:29 PM
Number 1 can be also Ultramarine Rose PR259, but this pigment dulls in mixture with yellow so much, that any transparent iron oxides in this color range can show much better hue purity. Ultramarine rose +yellow = Brown
What about Potters pink? How much dull is it?

Hi, Giga! Hi, guys! Sorry. I was away for a while.

Giga, just like opainter said, Potter's Pink is a dull, "pink" color. It's similar in hue and masstone to Rose Madder Genuine (NR9,) but it has more limited mixing properties. If you want good oranges, you should mix Light Red (PR102) / Cadmium Red Light (PR108) + Red Iron Oxide (PR101) with Nickel Titanate Yellow (PY53.)

Mythrill
12-14-2013, 05:29 PM
Great experiments! I love the neoclassic palette with 5 pigments.

Hi, Karen! I'm glad you like it! Have you tried it (or a subset of it) yet?

Gigalot
12-15-2013, 05:49 AM
Cadmium pigments will be banned soon. The more or less good red pigment for artists can be PR254 with BWS=7. It is far less lightfast than Cadmium, but still good to compare with other organic stuff. I tried to find something better, but nope. Lead molybdates are also banned even today. China can't help, their global trade interest cost more than artists garbage. When lawyers decide to ban Cadmium, it will be banned everywhere, including Chinese oil paints, which have export orientation.

PY216 pigment can take a place of Cadmium Yellow deep after this pigment will be abandoned.
http://www.dickblick.com/items/02108-4943?AID=11424544&PID=4070950&Ref=CJ&source=affiliate&CID=3092540&Publisher=DAVID+MYERS#colorpigments

But those titanium pigments are very opaque and therefore less useful for glaze.

I guess, our neoclassic palette can be based on organic pigments.
Ultramarine contain sulfur, and ultramarine production is not environmental friendly. But nobody will try to make this pigment for artists only. I think, cosmetic industry will be final ultramarine consumer.

In my imagination, neo-classic palette can be

1 Phthalo Blue
2 Pyrolle Red
3 Hansa Yellow (Or Benzimidazolone Yellow)
4 Pyrolle Orange
5 Phthalo Green
6 Quinacridone Magenta
7 Titanium White
8 Synthetic Red oxide
9 Synthetic Tr.Red oxide
10 Synthetic Yellow oxide.
11 Synthetic Black oxide

Nice colors, new standard of lightfastness put them to a "Very lightfast" pigment group, :D and, also, all of these colors are less toxic industrial pigments.

Mythrill
12-15-2013, 06:56 AM
Cadmium pigments will be banned soon. The more or less good red pigment for artists can be PR254 with BWS=7.

Hi, Giga. I don't see Cadmium Pigment usage being banned anytime soon. There are far more dangerous pigments on the market now: Genuine Naples Yellow (PY41, Lead,) Lead-Tin Yellow (N/A,Lead,) Lead White (PW1, sales are heavily regulamented, but it's not forbidden to be sold.) M. Graham has even started offering Genuine Naples (Yellow and Dark) in their painting lines, and they are from UK.

If you still want to go for a Cadmium Yellow (PY35) replacement, though, try Bismuth Yellow (PY184.) It's a bit redder than Cadmium, but overall it's the best replacement you can find–and it holds on on damp environments too. Paint makers have just started offering it in the dark and medium shades too. It is far less lightfast than Cadmium, but still good to compare with other organic stuff. I tried to find something better, but nope. Lead molybdates are also banned even today. China can't help, their global trade interest cost more than artists garbage. When lawyers decide to ban Cadmium, it will be banned everywhere, including Chinese oil paints, which have export orientation.


I guess, our neoclassic palette can be based on organic pigments. Ultramarine contain sulfur, and ultramarine production is not environmental friendly. But nobody will try to make this pigment for artists only.

Giga, using a palette made solely of synthetic-organic pigments would defeat the entire purpose of the palette: providing subdued colors with an improved color range among the violets and purples. If you want to use this palette to mimic masters more closely, the only two organic pigments that you could add would be a cold red (PV19-gamma, maybe) and a violet-blue (probably PB60.) These colors would replace Alizarin Crimson and Indigo.

I should also point out that Red Iron Oxide (opaque and transparent, PR101,) Transparent Yellow Oxide (PY42) and Mars Black (PBk11) are inorganic colors, not synthetic-organic. Transparent PR101 and PY42 do behave very close to organic pigments with their growing chroma curve (up until a certain point) when you add white, but they are still inorganic.

Gigalot
12-15-2013, 09:08 AM
M. Graham has even started offering Genuine Naples (Yellow and Dark) in their painting lines, and they are from UK.


http://mgraham.com/products/oil/earth-colors/

M.Graham Naples yellow is made from:

PBr7—Burnt Sienna
PW6—Titanium White
PY74—Hansa Yellow

Nothing special, I can mix it at home, but I prefer China Maries masters "Naples yellow", which is made from:

PY35 -- Cadmium yellow
PR108 --Cadmium Red
PW6 --Titanium White.

Beautiful! Light pigmented, but useful anyway!


PY74 might be lightfast enough, when applied thickly and sealed under picture varnish. It is sensitive mostly to UV light. Picture varnish might give a good protection to Hansas.

Mythrill
12-15-2013, 10:37 AM
http://mgraham.com/products/oil/earth-colors/

M.Graham Naples yellow is made from:

PBr7—Burnt Sienna
PW6—Titanium White
PY74—Hansa Yellow

Nothing special, I can mix it at home, but I prefer China Maries masters "Naples yellow", which is made from:

PY35 -- Cadmium yellow
PR108 --Cadmium Red
PW6 --Titanium White.

Beautiful! Light pigmented, but useful anyway!


PY74 might be lightfast enough, when applied thickly and sealed under picture varnish. It is sensitive mostly to UV light. Picture varnish might give a good protection to Hansas.
Sorry, Giga! I mixed up M. Graham with Michael Harding. It's Michael Harding that makes Genuine Naples Yellow Light and Dark. Look here:

Naples Yellow Light: http://www.michaelharding.co.uk/colour-info.php?cID=131 (http://www.michaelharding.co.uk/colour-info.php?cID=131)
Naples Yellow Dark: http://www.michaelharding.co.uk/colour-info.php?cID=132They also make a hue of Naples Yellow that mimics the "Dark" variety. It's based on PBr24, which is the best substance available today to mimic the dark shade that's not Genuine Naples itself–it's even close in chemical makeup, as it is a Chrome-Titanium Antimony Complex (true Naples Yellow is Lead-Antimony). I have this one as "Naples Yellow Deep", from Winsor & Newton.


"Naples Yellow" [hue, PBr24]: http://www.michaelharding.co.uk/colour-info.php?cID=130

karenlee
12-15-2013, 11:34 AM
Lead molybdates are banned? Where? Not here...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Dec-2013/45183-orange.jpg

Gigalot
12-15-2013, 04:13 PM
Lead molybdates are banned? Where? Not here...


In Romania it is also available!!

Rublev makes just everything, artist must try. There are genuine Vermilion, Red Lead, Naples Yellow, Azurite, Green Earth from Verona, Nicosia, Bohemia, Russia;
Black Ochre, Terra rossa. Do not see Copper Resinate, but I have it made at home..!