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AggieL
06-26-2001, 12:01 PM
Is anyone familiar with Schmincke Norma oil paints? I usually use Windsor Newton, but would like to change to something a little better.

shawn gibson
06-26-2001, 12:11 PM
The best I've used--limited--for the price is Rob Howard's Special Aged. I know Old Holland is great, just way, way overpriced. I've heard good things about Sinopia and Kremer, haven't used.

I think SM said you can get large quantities of Cold Pressed from Sinopia...?

shawn gibson
06-26-2001, 12:19 PM
Sorry Aggie, I thought you said oils, not oil paints:

Blockx
Old Holland
Holbein
Rembrandt

for pigments:
Kremer

and I've heard good thing about:
Sinopia
sarkana

Verdaccio
06-26-2001, 03:01 PM
I can recommend Utrecht paints. They are not the top end, but you will find them head and shoulders above WN. Plus, they are affordable. Check them out at www.utrechtart.com.

robinsn
06-26-2001, 06:47 PM
My favorite, by far, is Blockx. I've used Schmenke Norma paints and they are pretty good, but in my opinion, Blockx is much better. You'll find more detailed info on paint brands in this thread in the color mixing forum: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2518

AggieL
06-27-2001, 09:52 AM
Thanks Robinsn!! Very helpful information!

sarkana
06-27-2001, 11:32 AM
nothing wrong with schmincke norma but i wonder why you dont try the flagship mussini brand that schmincke also makes. those are among the finest paints i've used. i also like:

holbein
williamsburg
old holland (but man, they *are* expensive)
astoria (but he's out of biz now)
and gamblin is pretty decent

i have to say that i find utrecht paints to be really, really low quality. i wouldn't use them personally. same for windsor&newton, liquitex (oils, the acrylics are pretty good).

i make oil paints so i have to put in a plug for myself! handground paint is head & shoulders above any paint made in a massive manufacturing process. it's also fresher, more vibrant, and buying it supports the burgeoning arts community in williamsburg, brooklyn. more info is on my website, the link is below.

shawn gibson
06-27-2001, 11:41 AM
sarkana--I never realized your paints were hand-ground (duh...). Does this give a closer feel to the Old Masters, over the micronizing (I believe it's called) that most manufacturers use?

shawn:)

ldallen
06-27-2001, 07:44 PM
When push comes to shove what it all boils down to cost. I'm collecting Old Holland, one tube at a time because it's so expensive. Most of my paint is WN and Grumbacher because everytime I go to buy, the other paints are just too damned expensive. When I become rich and famous I'll buy the best paint on the market - don't know what that is though.

Michael, thanks for the heads up on Utrecht. I've been wondering about it. Can't find it in my area so I'll take a look at the web site you suggested.

robinsn
06-27-2001, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by ldallen
When push comes to shove what it all boils down to cost. I'm collecting Old Holland, one tube at a time because it's so expensive. Most of my paint is WN and Grumbacher because everytime I go to buy, the other paints are just too damned expensive. When I become rich and famous I'll buy the best paint on the market - don't know what that is though.


In my opinion, Blockx is the best paint on the market, and it's less expensive than Old Holland!

blondheim12
06-28-2001, 08:09 AM
I'm an Old Holland fan. The more I use them ,the better I like them. I got them on sale at ASW a few months ago. Look for their paint sales.
Linda

shawn gibson
06-28-2001, 09:00 AM
Linda--I just checked out your site. You are a wonderful painter.

Glowing, and subtly electric.

shawn

sarkana
06-28-2001, 09:27 AM
wel, certainly the old masters didn't use fillers like aluminum hydrate or stearate in their paints. in fact, if you grind your own, why would you bother with fillers at all? mass manufacturing of oil paint is an incredibly recent invention in the history of painting, didn't come about until the 20th century. and even into the 1950s a lot of artists still ground their own because that's how they were taught.

one thing that bugs me about bulk or over-the-counter paint is that many companies use chemical additives and fillers to make all the colors act alike. for instance, putting a lot of stearate in earth colors so they will flow more like a lake. or putting chalk in ultramarines so they will have the drag of an umber. for me personally, i want the pigments to display their own unique personality as much as possible. i don't need my blues to act like my browns. that is why i tend toward small-batch producers when not using my own paints. i think old holland does a pretty good job of this, and williamsburg is probably the closest to my own paintmaking philosophy. but there are plenty of times when i've tried paint from both of these companies and i could just feel the fillers!

the best way to cop old master style is to grind your own. you can do exactly what i do: buy equipment and pigment from doak, make your own colors (sell whats left over on the internet!). doak is a wealth of knowledge and there are several really nice people on this very forum who make their own, too. but if you need to spend your time painting rather than making paint, you really ought to try one or two of my colors! seriously, i'm plugging myself but i really feel that using the best paint you can get your hands on can make you a better painter. anyone want to back me up on this?

Originally posted by shawn gibson
sarkana--I never realized your paints were hand-ground (duh...). Does this give a closer feel to the Old Masters, over the micronizing (I believe it's called) that most manufacturers use?

shawn:)

shawn gibson
06-28-2001, 09:40 AM
Thanks sarkana...

All those additives are precisely the reason I'e become a little afraid of ANY tubed paint, from WN to Doak.

I would rather buy pigment and put into my own tubes from materials I know precisely what they are (well, to the extent that I know what bottle they came from!!!).

I have tubes of paint that are front-loading with separated oil, but I don't care...I just drain off that excess, and add my medium when I paint...

What frightens me the most is...grinding, really grinding with a mortar and pestle (which I have, but am very afraid to use).

I have no idea when you are SUPPOSED to grind...every pigment, almost, I just disperse it into oil with a pallate knife, and tube it...that CAN'T be right!!!

ps I'm getting vermilion off you next; Kremer's is great, but your description of your vermilion sounds so much more primary than theirs...which is beautifully semi-tertiary...shawn:)

blondheim12
06-28-2001, 09:51 AM
Thank you. Your kind words are appreciated.
Love,
Linda

AggieL
06-28-2001, 11:11 AM
Well, it sounds like I have a lot more options than I once thought.
Since I am very short on time...as I work a full-time job and paint at night and on weekends...I think over the counter is the way to go. I am very interested in trying the hand ground paints though. Is it difficult to get used to using hand ground after only using store bought paints? It sounds like there would be a lot to learn about how each pigment acts.
I would also love to try Blockx...robinsn, you have been very convincing..but I would most certainly have to take it one tube at time. Unfortunately, right now money is a hugh issue also!

I just wish I hadn't run out of about 5 colors this week!!!!!

BTW! Linda, I also checked out your site and really like your work! It is obvious that you put a lot of energy into your paintings!

April

shawn gibson
06-28-2001, 11:45 AM
>>I would also love to try Blockx...robinsn, you have been very convincing..but I would most certainly have to take it one tube at time

I have always thought that was wise with every colour purchase. I think it is limiting to be dogmatic about a brand...what if you are an Old Holland user and hate their...say...Cobalt Blue. If you never looked, you'd not notice how wonderful Windsor Newton's Cobalt Blue is...just a theoretical example.

blondheim12
06-28-2001, 01:29 PM
Shawn,
I agree. Artists should try several brands before deciding. I have used several over the years.
Thank you April.
Linda

ldallen
06-28-2001, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by robinsn


In my opinion, Blockx is the best paint on the market, and it's less expensive than Old Holland!

Well, I have heard good things about Blockx - maybe I'll give it a try.

Patrick
06-28-2001, 07:56 PM
I'm finding this all very interesting. Out here in the hinterlands of Montana it's hard to find sources for some of the more rarified products. Where can I find these brands of oil paint (do these companies make watercolor and pastels also)? My mentor made his own oils for awhile but constraints of time made it impractical. I although have been garthering samples of soil from the western US for about 20 years. The idea being someday I mix a set of fabulous watercolors. A full spectum of colors for a western landscape. Are there any web sources on the science part of my AS degree?

Leopoldo1
06-28-2001, 09:28 PM
I think it is wise to go across the board in your selection of pigments in developing your set palette because each manufacture offers some unique colors and that are outstanding. Gamlin makes a great Alizarin Crimson that is permanent. They all vary in hue even though they use the same pigment label. One that hasn't been mentioned is Robert Doak out of Brooklyn NY. I small operation with some incredible saturation in his colors at a good value. His Cobalt Light Blue for one is out of this world. I value the personal connection, rapid shipment and trustworthiness of suppliers and Mr. Doak is one of those in that category. :oL

Patrick
06-28-2001, 09:57 PM
do you have an address for Robert Doak?

Leopoldo1
06-29-2001, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Patrick
do you have an address for Robert Doak?

Yes Patrick.

Robert Doak
89 Bridge St.
Brooklyn, NY 11201

718 237-1210/0146

Ask him to send you his catalog, it is hand written! He is a hypothecary of information. He is the only vendor I know of that will send samples, ship without payment and return long distance phone calls! Beware though, he is typically the Brooklyn New Yorker with that gift of gab with a personality that is charming to the point that I usually buy more than I intended, but have never been disappointed. Good luck! :oL

sarkana
06-29-2001, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Leopoldo
Gamlin makes a great Alizarin Crimson that is permanent.

one thing that might be a concern is that if the alizarin is permanent, it isn't genuine. many manufacturers don't grind alizarin because it isn't lightfast. but the color has proven nearly impossible to duplicate. so many artists seek the genuine article despite its impermanence.

i'd like to also give a shout out for robert doak. he is my paintmaking mentor and i cannot say enough positive words about his pigments and his knowledge of materials. i toddle over to his workshop to get an earful a couple of times per month. he is a crackup to talk to and will not hesitate to talk trash about other manufacturers or instruct you on technique. i owe my fledgling paint business almost entirely to his knowledge, pigments, and equipment! you will not be disappointed if you give him a call.

robinsn
06-29-2001, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Leopoldo
I think it is wise to go across the board in your selection of pigments in developing your set palette because each manufacture offers some unique colors and that are outstanding. Gamlin makes a great Alizarin Crimson that is permanent. They all vary in hue even though they use the same pigment label.

This is actually what I had originally set out to do. I figured that each brand had it's better colors and worse and using lots of brands, I would find out what I like from each brand.

However, I decided against that as I did my testing. As an example, I literally spent over an hour with a couple brands of paint trying to get a specific blend effect and I just could not do it! I used every combination of different brush types and mediums (I have lots of both), the mediums in every combination from thin to thick, brushes from bristle to sable and it just WOULD NOT WORK! It was very frustrating as I thought it was me (this was before I knew that paint brands made the difference) After that, I found with other brands, it was easier, and with Blockx, it was totally effortless. I still don't know why exactly the difference. It doesn't make sense, but I even went back one more time with some leftover tubes of other brands, and got the same results. What this and other tests showed me though, was that I don't want to use any of those other paints anymore!

You couldn't even pay me to use Gamblin.

Mario
07-01-2001, 09:35 AM
Hi robinsn, would you please post the names of the brands of paints (and the colors if possible) that frustrated your attempts at blending??? Thanks

IRDOC
07-03-2001, 02:49 PM
Old Holland by far the best!!! worth every penny.

Einion
07-07-2001, 12:25 AM
I was wondering, for most of you is handling character the most important aspect of a paint? I can understand this being very important given certain preferences with regard to brushwork, technique etc. in oils. Is resistance to yellowing an issue? How about lightfastness and pigment load?

Just something this acrylic painter is curious about :) Since I always thin my paints their original consistency is pretty much irrelevant to me: pigment load and lightfastness are the only two things I really care about.

robinsn
07-07-2001, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Einion
I was wondering, for most of you is handling character the most important aspect of a paint? I can understand this being very important given certain preferences with regard to brushwork, technique etc. in oils. Is resistance to yellowing an issue? How about lightfastness and pigment load?


The most surprising aspect of my experiences was that no matter how I used the paint in the "bad" brands, it did not handle correctly for me. With those brands, I tried straight from the tube, thinned with turp, with turp/linseed (in many ratios), Stand oil, Stand with turp and with linseed (in many ratios), Venetian Turp, Venetian turp in many combinations with the other 4, and nothing would get it to handle like the Blockx and few other top brands. I don't have any idea why that is so, but that's what I found. So, in my case, handling is top priority. I wouldn't ignore pigment or lightfastness either and in the brand I decided to be my primary brand (Blockx), both of those attributes are tops.

I'm not familiar enough with acrylics to know if there is any difference in handling, but I suspect there is.

Leopoldo1
07-07-2001, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Einion
I was wondering, for most of you is handling character the most important aspect of a paint? I can understand this being very important given certain preferences with regard to brushwork, technique etc. in oils. Is resistance to yellowing an issue? How about lightfastness and pigment load?

Handling characteristics are the least of my worries when it comes to selecting oil pigments. Mediums will take care of that as long as I know what is in that tube. I like it simple, pigment and linseed oil. Mainly I want to know what is the make up of the pigment I am buying. My other concern is what was it married with, meaning what kind of oil, poppy seed, walnut, linseed, etc.? My preference is linseed oil ONLY. No fillers or exenders like Blanc Fixe, Barrium Sulfate Precipated(bloated). Manufactures that use them are selling the consumer less pigment(saturation, chroma and intensity) but in trade are giving you the handling qualities. They make money, fillers are cheap and the consumer is happy bragging to everyone about how buttery the pigment is. I want that most saturation I can get out of a tube of paint and I want that on my canvas. If again I want handling qualities I will add medium so all the pigments on the palette have the same viscosity, flow if you will. I am looking for chroma and linseed oil in my paint from quality manufactures. You want wonderful interesting handling qualities use Maroger. Canada Balsam or Copal with Stand Oil have their characteristics as well.

I don't worry about yellowing because all the oils will in time, oxygen molecules will see to that. Stand oil is by far the best in the arena of oils for the least amount of yellowing! :oL

Mario
07-07-2001, 09:27 AM
Hi Leopoldo, It warms my heart to hear someone cheer for stand oil, which I like very much. Also, the qualities that you look for in a tube of paint are probably shared by many here. So far, you have mentioned Gamblin's Permanent Alizaron Crimson (also Robert Schmidt's favorite version, claims it is identical to the real thing.)and Robert Doak's Colbalt Light Blue. Which are the remaining tubes and brands on your pallette, please?

sarkana
07-07-2001, 10:53 AM
hip hip hooray for stand oil, i couldn't paint without it. and i'd like to cheer for everything leopoldo said. who cares about handling qualities? every pigment should have a different handling quality. i miss the individual characteristics and personalities of the pigments in the bulk manufactured colors. after making paint for a while, the pigments become almost like friends!

i do have a few guilty pleasures, though, colors i buy from other sources because i'm never going to make them myself.i wonder if everyone has a few special tubes? these are mine:
alizarin orange - williamsburg
cold black - willamsburg (so blue its not really black any more)
pale gold - david davis
brown pink - robert doak (the best in the free world! no kidding!)

Leopoldo1
07-07-2001, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Mario
Which are the remaining tubes and brands on your pallette, please?

I am using Schmid's palette especially after having the experience and then gaining the convidence from doing his color charts. 11 colors plus white you can pretty much duplicate anything, plus colbalt violet deep.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jul-2001/colorcharts.jpg

Brands: Doak, Old Holland, Williamsburg, Daniel Smith, Winsor & Newton, Lapiz out of Colorado and Utrecht in their flake white. Like most artists we use alot of white and Utrecht was the least expensive for the punch. If you want a great assortment of glorius blues, Doak is the blueman. Really any of the top manufactures will do and the price reflects that.

If you like to paint confident and fast portraitures, I still like to use Howard Sanden's palette. His pre-mix colors divided into darks, lights, neutrals and halftones are intellectually thought out. :oL

tjrudd
07-07-2001, 02:54 PM
<< I am using Schmid's palette... >>

I see you've done the color charts from Schmid's book, too. They're certainly good practice with a painting knife. I'm on my second set, since I'll change a brand here or there and they have to be redone.

Just out of curiousity, have you tried either of the Alizarin Crimson substitutes Schmid recommends, Gamblin's or W&N's Permanent Alizarins? I did and I found they just didn't mix the same. Maybe I'm missing something.

The other question was regarding brushes. The Langnickel 5590 long flats are quite nice, even if they're sometimes difficult to find. Have you compared them with other sable flats (e.g., Kalish or Raphael)?

Leopoldo1
07-07-2001, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tjrudd
Just out of curiousity, have you tried either of the Alizarin Crimson substitutes Schmid recommends, Gamblin's or W&N's Permanent Alizarins? I did and I found they just didn't mix the same. Maybe I'm missing something.

W&N Permanent Alizarin is different than regular Alizarin. Great transparency and permanent. Gamblin's Alizarin is permanent as well but is a full value darker. Both are wonderful colors as they are or in mixing, especially for those transparent blacks.

The other question was regarding brushes. The Langnickel 5590 long flats are quite nice, even if they're sometimes difficult to find. Have you compared them with other sable flats (e.g., Kalish or Raphael)

The Langnickel 5590 is very supple and a different beast.. I found to control the flexiblity of the brush I needed to do what my little league coach taught me, "Choke up on the handle". Beautiful strokes can be had from this brush. o:L

Danny
07-22-2001, 05:19 AM
I buy everything wholesale.If anyone needs to know where to get a good supplier si have it on most stuff like paint,fine bruches and prestreched and rolls of linen. One wholesale house i deal with has a book with over 500 pages of art supplys. I,ve tried a lot of paint.And theres one i buy exclusively with a few color exceptions.I use Rembrant. I sware by Rembrant. But even so I'm still allways looking for better and will as long as i live.But for now the very best I've ever used is Rembrant.It has everything I look for.Its ground with the max amount of the finest pigment you can use safely.Its ground in pure cold pressed linseed oil from the first pressing only with the exception of whites.The colors are very vivid.The longivity rateing is among the very best.It has a smooth buttery consistancy.Elastivity is excellant.(Spelling???)And the transparency of transparent colors is awsum. The reason it is a little higher is they ues the finest pigments from around the world,And theres No fillers added like wax.The lightfastness is excellant.I'm always shoping for the very best price.I shop for wholesale prices for the same items.I'm constantly doing resurch for the same products.But wholesale RulesI can Buy 3 tubes for what 1&1/2 used to cost:)

Luis Guerreiro
07-22-2001, 08:48 AM
Danny,

Here is some information, in reply to your quest on the best oil colours.
I am only dealing with TUBE oil colours in my reply, since I donít grind them myself, because of health and safety reasons.
I have tested and used oil colours from:
OLD HOLLAND
REMBRANDT
LUKAS
WINSOR & NEWTON
SCHMINKE NORMA and MUSSINI
MICHAEL HARDING
ROBERSONíS OF LONDON
From all the above, I think my favourites are the following, by order of importance:
1. OLD HOLLAND. All the colours have the highest grade of lightfastness ASTM (around 200 years under museum light). The range of 160 shades is expensive but excellent. Top price is around £ 160,00 sterling for one tube. There is much confusion about their colour naming system. To clarify things a bit, Old Holland LAKES are all the transparent shades. Formerly, the term LAKE meant a colour that wasnít lightfast. This is not the case anymore. All colours are 100% permanent. They are made in the Netherlands using an old method in practice in that country since 1664.
2. REMBRANDT. Also made in the Netherlands by Royal Talens. Cheaper than Old Holland, topping £ 90,00 sterling. Letís cut the usual snobbery about oil colours for a moment, only to say that Rembrandt is an absolutely sound oil colour. For a small fee you can buy a real paint colour chart from a Talens retailer or order it from the Distributer. It takes 1 week to prepare it and it costs in the UK around £ 5,00 sterling. Itís the best way to appreciate the high quality of this brand. There are 120 shades, again all of them 100% lightfast ASTM. Rembrandt has a Vermilion shade quite unique, which you wonít find in Old Holland by the way. A comparative analysis of Alizarin Crimson from both Old Holland and Rembrandt show that there is plenty of prejudices about oil colours.
3. ROBERSONíS OF LONDON. Robersonís of London is an Art Materials Manufacturer. They produce an oil range, ground in stone mills to the highest possible concentration of pigment. Youíll need a crane to lift a 225 ml. Tube. There are maybe 50 colours available only, which is more than enough anyway. Robersonís uses the best raw materials, not only for oil colours but also for any other traditional oil painting material or product. You can contact them on ++ 44 20 72720567. It should be said that their products are available via retailers, of which the best one I know in London is L. CORNELISSEN & SONS LTD. Cornelissen has an export service. Contact them on [email protected], or by phone on ++ 44 20 76361045 or by fax on ++ 44 20 76363655 or visit the shop in London, 105 Great Russel Street, LONDON WC1B 3RY. I am an artist and I have no financial interests in none of these whatsoever of course! But I do most emphatically recommend CORNELISSEN and ROBERSONíS for the quality of their products and excellent Customer Service.
I should also mention that all the above is EASILY available to U.S.A. and Canada artists via mail orders so donít be put off by the fact the above suppliers are in Europe. Old Holland and Rembrandt are available in America.
Luis :cool:

sarkana
07-22-2001, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Danny
I buy everything wholesale.

if you are serious about professional results and saving money, you should try grinding your own. thats when wholesale really starts to count!

Danny
07-23-2001, 08:04 PM
Hey thanks Luis!This is exactly the kind of input I'm looking for!:clap: :clap: :) Great job!!By the way i have 2 or 3 boxes of that Vermilion .(Three tubes to a box)Its great as a base for painting water in combanations with other colors.

Danny
07-24-2001, 06:15 AM
Ok i have another valad Question for you.I've been told if you really value your painting Don't use copal.Can anyone back this up or dispute it.Also I've heard Horror stories about people who use too much meduem in there paint.Yet i know Whistler used so much that his paintings had to be removed often from the ezal and laid flat because it ran.All this hearsay crap had got me so skidish I've gotton to where i Just use straight paint since i use an excellant paint anyway.The medium i do use is the Stand oil Damar Varnish Turpentine one.

Titanium
07-24-2001, 07:07 AM
Danny ,

you can try it from this angle -

Research shows that the 19th Century used Copal ,
Amber and other resins .

The Old Masters didn't , just Heat-Bodied Oil and
a copper resinate for drying reds , browns and blacks .

There is no use of resin as a medium as is seen today.

Instead Heat - Bodied Oil keeps showing up .

This prepared oil , dries with a resin type gloss , gives
excellent suspension to pigments , and you can hand
mull your paints in it .
A few drops of this oil , in normal commercial paint will
also do the above , in the last coats.

It's like a very thin stand oil , but only slightly viscous
and doesn't stop you from easy painting .

This oil type was being made up to around the early 1900's
and then the commercial tube paints took over.

The use of Resins [ Copal , Amber and so on ] was to
recreate the effects seen in Old Master paintings . Resinous
effects created by time as the Lead White became transparent
and made the oil binder more noticeable.
[ See the National Gallery Technical Bulletin [ London ] vol's 19
and 20 for a more indepth and easily understood explantion].

Speculation -
When you transform Copal or Amber to Copal or Amber colophony , there seems to be a natural solvent effect [ possibly created or realised by the melting of the resins ] , that affects the oil . This seems to counter the effect of the commercial tube and it's alumina hydrate /alumina stearate or what is known as " feeding up " of the Lead White .

Essentially , the painter is re-conditioning the commercial paint to re-gain the hand mulled quality , lost today .
[ Yes , I have made both Copal and Amber oil medium from scratch
just to see , what happens.]

It is easier on my nerves , to just hand mull .
Titanium

LarrySeiler
07-24-2001, 09:07 AM
I did not start out a fan of copal...but have used Garrett's copal now for about 4-6 years.

For everything I know...Garrett's and store boughts are a far cry apart.

I can understand artists wanting to imitate the master's use of it, and in fact on Garrett's site that is how they demonstrate its use. I've been encouraging them to consider its impasto value.

I enjoy the feel it gives me when painting alla prima, the control I feel I have with brushstrokes. I only use a couple drops in about an inch sized ribbon of 37ml tube pigment...but about 12 drops in my white. A buttery consistency.

The other advantage is its being a natural siccative, attaching to pigment throughout the stroke and drying uniformly and not just outside in. It dries fairly quickly in 2-3 days the way I use it. Gives a natural sheen to the finished piece, is hard. So for the record anyway, I'm one that uses genuine copal but not in traditional ways. -Larry

357 Mag
07-25-2001, 02:21 AM
Utrecht. And you can buy big tubes in many color offerings.

Midwest Painter
07-25-2001, 05:43 PM
Does anyone have experience with Williamsburg paints? How do they compare to Old Holland?


http://www.oilpaint.com/

EastDevil
07-27-2001, 12:41 AM
There are no mention of Daler-Rowney Artists' Oils. How does it rate among the various brands?

frankcote
07-27-2001, 08:20 AM
Earlier Danny said:
I buy everything wholesale.If anyone needs to know where to get a good supplier si have it on most stuff like paint,fine bruches and prestreched and rolls of linen.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Danny,
Where do you buy your stuff wholesale? I'm always interested in a deal.

Frank

timelady
07-27-2001, 04:06 PM
Here's another couple brands, has anyone tried them?
SAX (from Switzerland)
Cennini (found their website in Italy)

Basically, I ventured into unknown parts of town today to buy a few Gamblin tubes to try (only one shop in the UK stocks it!). To its favour, it pretty much cost the same as my usual Windsor & Newton. Also grabbed a tube of Galkyd to try instead of Liquin for a while (so don't bother lecturing me about alkyds).

The wonderful guy at the store recommended SAX but I'd never heard of them. The Cennini I found by mistake by mistake online. The shop also had very few Old Holland colours, but Cornellison's probably will have them. Wish I could find Bloxx here to give them a try... (or any of the others) Unfortunately, it wouldn't be economic to buy mail order from the states because I'd still get hit with the 17.5% import duty (VAT).

Tina.

Victor
07-29-2001, 04:27 AM
Luis,

Could you please clarify something for me.

1. OLD HOLLAND. All the colours have the highest grade of lightfastness ASTM (around 200 years under museum light). The range of 160 shades is expensive but excellent. Top price is around £ 160,00 sterling for one tube.

Is this a typing error, £160.00 for one tube.

REMBRANDT. Also made in the Netherlands by Royal Talens. Cheaper than Old Holland, topping £ 90,00 sterling.

Are you saying this is £90.00 a tube.

I bought a set of Rembrandt oils and it was only about £8.00 a tube for the dearest colours. Is there another quality of Rembrandt I don't know about.

I would also like to know if all these other brands are intermixable with each other i.e. the cheap with the dear. Does anyone know.

Vic

robinsn
07-30-2001, 02:05 PM
Timelady - From what I understand, Blockx is mostly marketed in Europe, so it should be easier to find it there than here. There is one online retailer I see listed from Europe - http://www.schleiper.be/

You could visit the blockx website at http://www.blockx.be and email them to ask where to find Blockx in England. They're certainly worth a try.

TheStyle
07-31-2001, 04:47 PM
To make a long story short, I wanted to find an alternative
to using turps, linseed oil, stand oil etc.

I found Archival Oils made in Australia. Extremley low oder,
excellent cleanup. I'm using the same 2 brushes from
1997 and they look like new. The paint is a modified
linseed oil (not water soluble) and the company claims
"permanent flexability." That caught my interest.

Call Chroma at 1-800-257-8278, their US no. in Pa,
and ask them about their oil paints. If you buy more
than $100., you get a %40 discount.

Curious technical artists should ask to speak to their
chemist. Ask for their pricelist and tech brochure.
Using these paints will change your life...

MichaelB

VictoriaS
07-31-2001, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Victor
Is this a typing error, £160.00 for one tube.
Vic

Vic, this has to have been a typo. Here, at a discount art supply store, the most expensive Old Holland oils -- cadmiums, for example -- are around US $27.

Victoria

Degas5
07-31-2001, 09:54 PM
Victoria,
I believe you are right about the price of the cadmiums, but they do go as high as $44 some odd dollars here in NY for Cerulean Blue and Cobalt Violet. I'm always amazed at the weight of that little tube of Cerulean. They pack so much pigment into it and can't compare to any other out there...ooou ahhh:)

VictoriaS
08-01-2001, 07:24 PM
Hi, Degas5: I was checking www.italianartstore.com -- I think they're in New York. There, the two cobalt violets (and all of the other cobalts) are $27. Cerulean blue deep is $27, but cerulean blue light is $41.

Degas5
08-01-2001, 10:14 PM
I must have been mistaken. I know they have two ceruleans and one is much less, so I guess the one I have is the cerulean light; I used to work at Pearl and know that there are a couple of colors way up there in price and I thought that the cobalt violet light and deep were in that group.
Anyways, The Italian Art Store seems to have better prices on their Old Holland. Did you ever order from them and, if so, were you satisfied with their service. I ask only because I've heard of problems with Jerry Artarama and try to avoid mail order myself. But for such a savings, I might give it a try.

VictoriaS
08-02-2001, 01:24 PM
Degas5: Yes, I have ordered from Italian Art Store. Only once or twice, I think, but it was fine and I would order from them again. Have also only ordered from Jerry's once, and had no problem. One or two others, though -- Cheap Joe's, maybe(??), and I don't remember who else -- seem to get something wrong half the time. I still order from them anyway; call with the problem and they make it right. Pearl is my local art supply, and they do have higher prices than most, so I often prefer to order online if I can wait.

Victoria

Leopoldo1
08-02-2001, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by VictoriaS
Hi, Degas5: I was checking www.italianartstore.com -- I think they're in New York. There, the two cobalt violets (and all of the other cobalts) are $27. Cerulean blue deep is $27, but cerulean blue light is $41.

That is a good price for Old Holland's Cobalt Violet Dark! Fairly recently I bought that hue from Rex Art for $47.88 which included shipping. :oL

tjrudd
08-02-2001, 08:40 PM
I've ordered from the Italian Art Store (800-643-6440) many times and their service is always great. Any problems and they make it right. They're one of the few places that always seem to have Raphael Paris Classic brushes in stock. They also sell Old Holland in the big toobs at good prices (little or no wait).

You might also check out Artisan Santa Fe (800-331-6375) as they seem to have pretty good service, too. They also stock many of the Langnickel brushes (5590 flats are nice).

Victor
08-03-2001, 11:16 AM
Tina,

The store I am about to visit in london said that they are not going to sell Old Holland anymore as it is rubbish and they have replaced it with Sax. You can't win can you.

Vic...:)

Degas5
08-03-2001, 12:07 PM
I've seen the Italian Art Store's ads for years in American Artist and their prices seemed too good; that's why I asked about their service. Definitely going to try them.

Danny
08-03-2001, 02:04 PM
Victor I spend between $8 to $40 a Tube for Rembrants.But i buy wholesale so i pay from 40 to 50% less and get three tubes of each color per box wholesale.Theres only one quilaty of Rembrant.There less expensive line which I find still a lot better oil than most your common brands is called Van Gogh.(Slightly less pigment is the only differance. Still no fillers but pure)This is not guessing ,but fact since I use Rembrants Exclusively.(With the exception of a couple colors they don't make.And order it wholesale.Though i will Be trying Old Holland And Blockx.(Spelling?):)

Victor
08-03-2001, 05:56 PM
Danny,

I have a complete set of Rembrandt paints I bought on a visit to Chicago and the price was very reasonable and I find the texture of the paint is just how I like it. I will try Old Holland though just to see for myself. Will also try out this Stand oil everyone is chatting about.......

Vic....

Danny
08-04-2001, 06:25 PM
VictorI think You'll love the Rembrants.I was doing a painting and ran short on french ultramarine blue in the brand I was phaseing out. I had just bought the same color in Rembrants.As I put it to canvas i was shocked at the differance. Even though the the colors were exactly the same the differance in brillance was outstanding.After that i tested other colors agains Rembrants. I went down and and bought a large sheet of canvesbord(Which I would NEVER use for a painting)and did side by side swatches of same color paint.When it was said and done i was sold.Ever since then I've used Rembrants almost exclusively.:) Also Vic that Stand oil everyone is talking about is sun thickened linseed oil. One Of the ingreadents in the medium I mix myself is Stand oil Though I've found I use less and less medium with Rembrants.:)

Victor
08-05-2001, 03:10 PM
Danny, I know what you mean about Rembrandt oils. I have used them exclusively on one painting so far and noticed the difference straight away. The colours are quite brilliant and I didn't have to add any medium to the paint as it is very creamy, soft and smooth. Makes me wonder why I feel I have to try something else. The coverage was also excelent.

Vic....:)

Luis Guerreiro
08-06-2001, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Victor
Luis,

Could you please clarify something for me.
1. OLD HOLLAND. All the colours have the highest grade of lightfastness ASTM (around 200 years under museum light). The range of 160 shades is expensive but excellent. Top price is around £ 160,00 sterling for one tube.
Is this a typing error, £160.00 for one tube.
REMBRANDT. Also made in the Netherlands by Royal Talens. Cheaper than Old Holland, topping £ 90,00 sterling.
Are you saying this is £90.00 a tube.
I bought a set of Rembrandt oils and it was only about £8.00 a tube for the dearest colours. Is there another quality of Rembrandt I don't know about.
I would also like to know if all these other brands are intermixable with each other i.e. the cheap with the dear. Does anyone know.
Vic

Victor,
Old Holland paints are expensive, the highest series (F) largest tube (225 ml) tops at nearly the price indicated and a bit less in some shops, such as Atlantis Art European. No mistake here.
As for Rembrandt Oils, they have large tubes (150 ml) in series 1, 2 and 3. Their series go from 1 to 6 I think, but there is an error in the top price, let me check it out and I'll let you know.

Luis Guerreiro
08-06-2001, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by robinsn
Timelady - From what I understand, Blockx is mostly marketed in Europe, so it should be easier to find it there than here. There is one online retailer I see listed from Europe - http://www.schleiper.be/

You could visit the blockx website at http://www.blockx.be and email them to ask where to find Blockx in England. They're certainly worth a try.

BLOCKX products:

Try A. P. FITZPATRICK in London, they sell them. I have posted the number here before, try a search on Fitzpatrick

Luis

Luis Guerreiro
08-06-2001, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Victor
Tina,

The store I am about to visit in london said that they are not going to sell Old Holland anymore as it is rubbish and they have replaced it with Sax. You can't win can you.

Vic...:)

The store in question, in London had an argument, a domestic of some kind with Old Holland, over a complaint that their colours faded quickly. Apparently a tube of Naples Yellow was left near a window for some time exposed to direct sunlight, and the label faded. Well, not surprising is it? Permanence of pigments is measured taking in consideration a certain amount of time under museum light, NOT direct sunlight (and heat). Anyway, this is what happened, apparently. The store wasn't happy with it and replaced them with SAX oil colours, a good brand that comes from Switzerland (they don't make just clocks after all:D ).

Luis Guerreiro
08-06-2001, 04:24 PM
Dear All,
This is a price check on Old Holland Classic Oil Colours, as I have an official inprint of the price list from one of the major retailers in the United Kingdom. Prices are given in £ sterling.
Series go from A to F
Tube sizes start at 18ml, 40ml, 60ml, 125ml and 225ml.
Cans (only whites) available at 475ml and 1000ml.
Prices for 18ml Tubes: From £2,95 to £11,95 (A to F Series)
Prices for 40ml Tubes: From £4,35 to £28,55 (A to F Series)
Prices for 60ml Tubes: From £6,25 to £40,95 (A to F Series)
Now the big "boys":
Prices for 125ml Tubes: From £11,25 to £44,75 (A to F Series)
Prices for 225ml Tubes: From £18,50 to £140,00 (A to F Series)
Cans:
Price for 475ml Can (all 5 whites): £30,95 (Series A only)
Price for 1 Litre Can (all 5 whites): £61,95 (Series A only)

The thing here is I am quite happy to pay £140,00 for a big 225ml tube on a series F colour, it will last me for a long time. And because Old Holland paints are richer in pigment than the average there is an economy of around 10% in mixes with white, for instance.

Paintbrush74
08-07-2001, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro


Apparently a tube of Naples Yellow was left near a window for some time exposed to direct sunlight, and the label faded. Well, not surprising is it?


Luis,

Are you saying that the label itself faded? You're not talking about the paint, right? I don't get it. I''m trying to understand what that has to do with the paint.

Lenora
:confused:

VictoriaS
08-07-2001, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Paintbrush74

Are you saying that the label itself faded? You're not talking about the paint, right? I don't get it. I''m trying to understand what that has to do with the paint.


Lenora: The labels of Old Holland paints are painted with the actual paint that's in the tube, so that you can see the real color without having to open the tube. If the label faded, that means the paint fades.

Victoria

Luis Guerreiro
08-08-2001, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Paintbrush74



Luis,

Are you saying that the label itself faded? You're not talking about the paint, right? I don't get it. I''m trying to understand what that has to do with the paint.

Lenora
:confused:
Lenora,
Old Holland paints are labelled with a white label and a stripe hand painted with the REAL colour from the batch the tube was filled from. This is why the argument between the store and Old Holland in the Netherlands was so bitter. Old Holland is right though, in my view. Even permanent pigmens will fade under direct exposure to the sun for a long period of time.

Luis Guerreiro
08-08-2001, 07:57 AM
It must be said that Old Holland pains are permanent, but again, the rate of permanence is measured in years under correct conditions of light exposure. I don't think the store made the right thing in leaving the tube under direct sunlight for a long time. And to be honest I haven't seen the tube in question myself. I am not sure and we shouldn't take the information available too seriously nor panick over the matter. And again, it could also be that the store is not telling the whole story or even the right story and is instead blaming Old Holland.
For all I know from tests carried out with Old Holland, is that their paints ARE INDEED permanent (around 200 years without any alteration in hue or shade under museum light conditions). A painting at home should be absolutely fine for certainly more than 150 years, so I think our preoccupations are quite redundant. After all, none of us will be around by the time paintings need to undergo restoration, cleaning, etc. The same happened with all other masters paintings, if you know what I mean...;)

Paintbrush74
08-10-2001, 11:48 PM
Victoria and Luis,

Thanks for the info about the paint label. I knew there had to be something that I didn't realize.

Einion
08-11-2001, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
...Old Holland is right though, in my view. Even permanent pigmens will fade under direct exposure to the sun for a long period of time.
To be fair Luis, most accelerated-ageing tests use direct exposure to the sun and the tube couldn't have been in the window that long. Glass also protects from the bulk of UV too so it didn't even have that to worry about!

There are a host of pigments that would survive direct sun exposure for years, even decades, without change (look at outdoor murals) and obviously one of the pigments in their Naples Yellow is not lightfast - I'm assuming it's actually a hue as the real pigment is supposed to be extremely reliable.

You've also said, and many others have made mention of, Old Holland using only lightfast pigments. Well, unless they revamped their entire range recently they used to have one of the worst reputations in Europe (along with Blockx and Sennelier) for continuing to use fugitive pigments. And they have one of the worst naming structures I have ever heard of - what the hell does Rose Dore Madder Lake Antique Extra mean?! :evil:

Einion

Luis Guerreiro
08-11-2001, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Einion

To be fair Luis, most accelerated-ageing tests use direct exposure to the sun and the tube couldn't have been in the window that long. Glass also protects from the bulk of UV too so it didn't even have that to worry about!
(...) You've also said, and many others have made mention of, Old Holland using only lightfast pigments. Well, unless they revamped their entire range recently they used to have one of the worst reputations in Europe (along with Blockx and Sennelier) for continuing to use fugitive pigments. And they have one of the worst naming structures I have ever heard of - what the hell does Rose Dore Madder Lake Antique Extra mean?! :evil:
Einion
Einion, you couldn't have chosen a better name to illustrate your issue with Old Holland pigments lightfastness. Rose Dore Madder is self explanatory. The word LAKE means it is transparent. The word EXTRA is the key to your question. All Old Holland colours marked as EXTRA are the permanent pigments used to replace fugitive pigments. Old Holland uses the term LAKE to express the colour is transparent. But because the term was also used to mean a fugitive colour, artists begun to believe that all those colours were fugitive ones. Silly, but true.:angel:

Einion
08-11-2001, 10:33 PM
The Handprint author says it so eloquently I'll just quote him verbatim:
In the Old Holland labeling fairyland "lake" supposedly means transparent, "extra" means "hue" or imitation pigment, and "antique" means... who knows?

Hehe :D

Further to my comment above about Blockx, Iíve posted their listed pigments plus comments in a new thread.

Einion

Linda Boebinger
08-12-2001, 10:41 AM
Does anyone have any opinions on Daniel Smith's in house brand of oils? Also, I read the posts here on Cobalt driers...I have an small almost empty bottle of Grumbacher Cobalt Painting Medium which I really like. The "art supply store" (lol) where I live in Mexico carries a small bottle of cobalt dryer, very watery and blue in tint. Should this be mixed with a medium of some sort before adding to paint? I assume (I hate doing that) that only a drop or two is plenty, since it's concentrated?

I appreciate the web sites for paint suppliers. I need to find out from them about shipping internationally as well as any problems specifically with shipping to Mexico. From my limited research at stores close to me here, they carry Windsor Newton and a Mexican brand of paint which I'm hesitant to try. That seems to be about it.

Thanks for all the good info all.:D

Leopoldo1
08-12-2001, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Linda Boebinger
Does anyone have any opinions on Daniel Smith's in house brand of oils? Also, I read the posts here on Cobalt driers...Should this be mixed with a medium of some sort before adding to paint? I assume (I hate doing that) that only a drop or two is plenty, since it's concentrated?

From my limited research at stores close to me here, they carry Windsor Newton and a Mexican brand of paint which I'm hesitant to try.

Hola Linda!

Daniel Smith's carries two lines of oil paint, their Original Oils and their better grade the Autograph Series. They make excellent pigments and I use some of them. I particularly like their Mars Violet and Moonglow pigments. I believe they sell out of country.

Cobalt drier I don't use because of its sometimes negative drying characteristics(dries outside/in) if used improperly! Keep it to a minimum and you should be alright in your medium/pigments. On occassion when I need quicker drying, I prefer to grab a lead drier which dry inside/out a more positive direction. What is that Mexican paint called and have you tried it? Just curious, maybe Diego Rivera and Frieda used it? Ha Ha. :oL

Linda Boebinger
08-12-2001, 11:45 AM
Thanks Leopoldo! I've always been very pleased with the service and quality of other Daniel Smith products, so I wondere about their line of oils.

As for Diego and Frieda, they probably did...lol. I guess I'm just being a bit biased.

As a beginner with this particular medium, I'm finding that I use a lot of paint in the learning process (no, I don't refer to it as wasting paint ;)so I hesitate to spend a lot of money just yet. I want to use a good quality of paint, but without spending a fortune until me learning curve goes up.

Just now, I'm also drooling for a digital camera. I've been very impressed by the quality of comments in some of the critiques, and look forward to being able to avail myself of some good criticism regarding some of the images I'm tackling.

Thanks again.

Danny
08-13-2001, 07:30 AM
I,ve been reading where Old Holland and several other paints(Rembrant) have a life of 200 years under Museum conditions. My question is ,Ive seen and helped to clean paintings that were much older than this.(300 even 400 years old)Did the masters use a paint that was that much better than what we have today???:confused:

Ymir
08-13-2001, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Danny
I,ve been reading where Old Holland and several other paints(Rembrant) have a life of 200 years under Museum conditions. My question is ,Ive seen and helped to clean paintings that were much older than this.(300 even 400 years old)Did the masters use a paint that was that much better than what we have today???:confused:

Nah...all it means is that the paint will last at LEAST 200 years...not that it'll suddenly crumble to dust come 2201 AD. If anything we have better paints today with all the widely expanded pallete that is lightfast....which still includes the lightfast colors the masters had...ultramarine and earth colors.

Luis Guerreiro
08-13-2001, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Einion
The Handprint author says it so eloquently I'll just quote him verbatim:
In the Old Holland labeling fairyland "lake" supposedly means transparent, "extra" means "hue" or imitation pigment, and "antique" means... who knows?

Hehe :D

Further to my comment above about Blockx, Iíve posted their listed pigments plus comments in a new thread.

Einion
Antique possibly means... Oh I don't know, that it is an imitation of the old rose dore.:D
I agree that Old Holland could have chosen a better naming system, but never mind. The paint is excellent.
Your author is right, please see my previous post on the same terms, that's what they mean, however silly it may sound.
Luis

Luis Guerreiro
08-13-2001, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Danny
I,ve been reading where Old Holland and several other paints(Rembrant) have a life of 200 years under Museum conditions. My question is ,Ive seen and helped to clean paintings that were much older than this.(300 even 400 years old)Did the masters use a paint that was that much better than what we have today???:confused:
Danny,
What it means is that the paint will not change in shade for a period of 200 years. It won't discolour. After 200 years it may discolour or not. In any case, no one will put the picture in the bin. I hope!:eek:
Luis

Dactyl
08-21-2001, 04:03 AM
Danny and Luis:

I'm not trying to go after Old Holland - it IS one
of the most intensely pigmented paints made. But in May of 1999 I painted out 1"x 2" swatches on acrylic primed canvas. I used various brands of oil paints and I made medium tints of them using W/N alkyd titanium white (I used alkyd white to test because I was used a palette knife to lay down a fairly thick film of paint and I wanted it to cure quickly.) I cut the rows of swatches down the middle of each row so that I'd have 1/2 of the swatch to expose to sunlight and 1/2 to keep in subdued light. After 2 1/2 months in a window with southern exposure (in strong So. California sunlight,) I got the following results:

Old Holland paints:
Scheveningen Orange (PO 69) 2 different samples- one tube bought in 1989 one in 1994 - both exposed samples faded to less than half the strength of the unexposed samples.
Indian Yellow Green Lake Extra (PY 153 and PY129) Results about the same as above - faded to just about half strength as well.
Scheveningen Yellow Medium (PY 120) Exposed sample faded about 25%.
Scheveningen Red Deep (PR 214) Exellent color retention-no change at all.

The Following colors showed no fading:
Lefranc & Bourgeois Coral (PO 43) and Bright Red (PO 149), Daniel Smith Pyrrole Red (PR 254), Grumbacher Perylene Maroon (PR 179), Gamblin Perinone Red and Quinacridone Red (PV 19), Rowney Orange, Graham Quincridone Rose (PV 19).

The OH Scheveningen Red Deep is first rate, but how can they call the other three 100% Lightfast?

Dactyl

Luis Guerreiro
08-21-2001, 02:09 PM
D.
You tests are indeed interesting. Scheveningen series pigments have in some cases been replaced I think during 2000 and 2001. However, I do not have a 1999 chart to compare with the latest I got from Holland. If you are sure your results are acurate and there is no reason not believe they are indeed acurate, send a msg to http://www.oldholland.com/uk/index.html and in the form provided by the site, copy/paste your findings. They will reply to them. I have used it before and Old Holland has always replied with the info I wanted.
Luis

Dactyl
08-21-2001, 02:57 PM
Luis:

I just sent Old Holland an email as you suggested. I'll post their replly. It doesn't appear that OH has changed their color assortment since the late '80s. I have their brochure from that period and I picked up their most recent one last year at an art materials show. The selection and pigments used are the same.

In looking over their chart, most of the colors they list as madder, carmin or crimson contain PR 83 - standard Alizarin Crimson. How could anyone call Alizarin Crimson 100% lightfast?

Dactyl

Einion
08-21-2001, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Dactyl
...How could anyone call Alizarin Crimson 100% lightfast?
Yes!

Thanks for posting your test results. You got fading after only 2 1/2 months?! That is abysmal performance for any pigment, especially behind glass where the bulk of the UV is removed. It is good that you reduced the colours in tints as this is the acid-test for a pigment and is used by the ASTM and some manufacturers when testing their own products. This is where Alizarin Crimson really falls down as apparently in light tints and glazes it can fade even in the dark.

Your results highlight something I have commented on previously, that Old Holland have a poor reputation for their choice of pigments regardless of their marketing claims.

To comment on your results specifically:
PO69 is Isoindoline Orange and should be extremely lightfast. The Handprint independent test of this colour in watercolours (made my Old Holland) gave it top marks which makes your results even more surprising. I wonder what the heck is going on? Either this is one of the only pigments in the world that does not do best with the protection of an oil binder or it is not the actual pigment used.

PY153 is Nickel Dioxine Yellow and is often used in Indian Yellow or Gamboge substitutes; it should have very good to excellent lightfastness. PY129 is Azomethine Copper Complex, although I have very little information on this it is reputed to have very good to excellent lightfastness, so again, what is going on here?

PY120 is Benzimidazolone Yellow, unfortunately a poor member of this otherwise superb family of pigments. It is fugitive in watercolours so your results are probably not surprising.

PR214 is Disazo Red, which has an excellent lightfastness reputation.

As to the good ones you report:
PO43 is Perinone Orange and has a very good to excellent lightfastness reputation; PO149? I'm guessing this is PR149, Perylene Red BL which could easily be called Bright Red, this apparently has very good lightfastness; PR254 is Pyrrole Red which has a superb lightfastness reputation; PR179 is Perylene Maroon which has very good to excellent lightfastness; PV19 is Quinacridone Red/Violet which has very good lightfast in oils; Perinone Red I don't have any independent info for but the Gamblin website say it is lightfastness I and Rowney Orange I have no information for.

I'm sure we would all like to hear about any other results you get if you continue your tests.

Einion

Dactyl
08-22-2001, 03:27 AM
Einion:

You're right the Bright Red should have been PR149. The Perinone Red is PR194 and I believe Rowney Orange is the same pigment as Rembrandt Stil de Grain Yellow: PY110.
There's usually a warning on the label of Nickel Dioxine Yellow that it contains soluble nickel compounds. Could the intimate mixing that occurs during milling cause this soluble nickel to affect the stability of the copper in Azomethane Copper Complex? Farfetched?
No word yet from Old Holland.
I'm currently testing pyrrole pigments from Blockx and Rembrandt, colors using PY154 from Rembrandt and Blockx, W/N and Rembrandt's transparent yellow PY128, Quinacridone pigments PR209,207,202, Dioxazine Violet PR23, Old Holland's PO67 and PR260, Schmincke's PR251 and Bismuth Vanadate lemon PY184.
They'll probably have to be exposed for another month and a half or so. It seems to take somewhat longer in the summer because the sun is more directly overhead, and due to the window's location the samples get fewer hours of direct sun exposure.

Dactyl

Mario
08-22-2001, 10:56 AM
It would be nice to keep posting an ongoing, updated list of the pigments in their order of dependability, lightfastness or whatever you guys feel is most important..then, us simpler folk, could maybe refer to the list, whenever we are buying pigments and perhaps even get the best qualities at the best prices when comparing pigments across paint brands...what do you think?
I am especially interested in these dyes that you are talking about. ;)

Midwest Painter
08-22-2001, 11:21 AM
This is an interesting discussion. You have motivated me to do an experiment (it's the Engineering in me talking now ...). I have a few scrap pieces of canvas. I am going to do a color swatches with my Williamsburg oil paints, and swatches with my Liquitex acrylics. I will do the same on two scraps of canvas, I will then take one canvas scrap and nail it to South side of my roof. The other I will keep in the dark. Next year I will retrieve them and compare.

Luis Guerreiro
08-22-2001, 02:44 PM
:mad:
Guys,
I haven't received any reply from Old Holland as yet. I will be calling Old Holland tomorrow in the morning to ask what on Earth is going on with their lightfastness rates. I do buy a lot of Old Holland paint, so they may be in for a shock. I want some answers and I want them fast.
Luis

Einion
08-22-2001, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Midwest Painter
This is an interesting discussion. You have motivated me to do an experiment (it's the Engineering in me talking now ...). I have a few scrap pieces of canvas. I am going to do a color swatches with my Williamsburg oil paints, and swatches with my Liquitex acrylics. I will do the same on two scraps of canvas, I will then take one canvas scrap and nail it to South side of my roof. The other I will keep in the dark. Next year I will retrieve them and compare.
Just a few things to bear in mind when doing your own accelerated lightfastness test if you're not familiar with them. If you're willing to spend a year on this it would be a good idea to check the swatches every three months to track changes. Some pigments fail early on while others may only show changes towards the end, ASTM II pigments might well fall into the second category. It would also be a good idea to tint and/or glaze each pigment, maybe in a couple of steps, (depending on which is most applicable to your work), in addition to having it applied straight from the tube - masstone and undercolour changes can vary. Some pigments are reliable only when used thickly and not reduced with white or a medium.

All lightfastness tests should protect from environmental fluctuations: remember you're trying to simulate the exposure the paint will be subject to during normal storage conditions. Cadmiums react poorly to a combination of water and UV (hence why they are not recommended for outdoor murals) so expect them to fail if you expose them to direct weather. The oil paint may well peel off completely if the canvas becomes wet.

Also, the indoor control group should ideally not be kept in the dark - linseed oil yellows/darkens quite a bit when stored this way although it can be bleached back to normal when exposed to indirect sunlight again. On a wall well away from a window might be good spot to tack them up.

Einion

Luis Guerreiro
08-23-2001, 03:34 PM
Still no reply from Old Holland.
I hope they do not turn a deaf ear to my questions, because if they do I will get rather angry.

Midwest Painter
08-23-2001, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Einion

Just a few things to bear in mind when doing your own accelerated lightfastness test if you're not familiar with them. If you're willing to spend a year on this it would be a good idea to check the swatches every three months to track changes. Some pigments fail early on while others may only show changes towards the end, ASTM II pigments might well fall into the second category. It would also be a good idea to tint and/or glaze each pigment, maybe in a couple of steps, (depending on which is most applicable to your work), in addition to having it applied straight from the tube - masstone and undercolour changes can vary. Some pigments are reliable only when used thickly and not reduced with white or a medium.

All lightfastness tests should protect from environmental fluctuations: remember you're trying to simulate the exposure the paint will be subject to during normal storage conditions. Cadmiums react poorly to a combination of water and UV (hence why they are not recommended for outdoor murals) so expect them to fail if you expose them to direct weather. The oil paint may well peel off completely if the canvas becomes wet.

Also, the indoor control group should ideally not be kept in the dark - linseed oil yellows/darkens quite a bit when stored this way although it can be bleached back to normal when exposed to indirect sunlight again. On a wall well away from a window might be good spot to tack them up.

Einion

Thanks for the advice. I will change my experiment. I have a greenhouse in my backyard. I will hang the samples, towards the South, inside a window. I am interested in not only the light fast qualities, but how oil paints compare to acrylics under the same harsh test. While this may not be a scientific test, it is an engineering test - "run it 'till it breaks".

EastDevil
08-23-2001, 11:45 PM
Dear all,

There have been some comments and debates regarding handmade paint and "manufactured" paint and also being able to work as close as possible according to the old master techniques and materials. I have some doubts regarding all these mambo jumbo:

There have been "religious" obsessions with handmade paint as being the best ever especially since the old masters uses them and therefore, some fanatics keep bragging non-stop that they make their own and uses only handmade paint while manufactured paint is considered as bad as they have all kinds of chemicals inside them and are ripping consumers off.

Furthermore, it seems like if they uses old master materials, they will paint like the old masters.

But are the old masters as egoistic as we are today?

Here's what it might be for the old masters:

- Imagine if I am one of the old masters and I uses handmade paint. Could it be because I do not have a large pool of brands of ready-made paint to choose from?

- I do not add various chemicals to enhance my paint because I have no idea what to add?

- I am using the latest modern techniques (of their time) to paint my work and constantly developing new and better techniques. I do not try to use ancient materials and techniques to do my work just because they are old master techniques.

Therefore, I would wonder if we are getting too impractical in the way we are painting today when we try to "act" like we are elite by going old master?

I believe each brand of paint has its own reason for the amount of pigment, oil and additives and we should judge them based on how they REALLY perform for the way they are made.

Dactyl
08-24-2001, 11:46 AM
Old Holland has sent a reply to my query regarding the permanence of some of their colors.



Many thanks for your e mail and the points raised theirin.

We regret the delay in answering your questions, unfortunetly our computer
system was down for some time.

We find the queries raised re the lightfast ratings of our paints
interesting, and these have been passed to our research laboratory for
further investigation. It would help us considerely if you could forward the
exact details of your test methods to enable our research laboratary to
replicate your method under controlled conditions.

With regard to PR83, which we describe in our literature as nearly
lightfast, we currently have a research project underway to replace this
with the best possible lightfast organic pigments available.

As you will appreciate these tests will take some time to complete, however
as soon as our results are available we will contact you.

Once again thank you for drawing this to our attention and we are looking
forward to receiving your testmethods at your convenience.

Sincerely

Old Holland Classic Colours
E. de Beer



Dactyl

Midwest Painter
08-24-2001, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by EastDevil
Dear all,

There have been some comments and debates regarding handmade paint and "manufactured" paint and also being able to work as close as possible according to the old master techniques and materials. I have some doubts regarding all these mambo jumbo:

There have been "religious" obsessions with handmade paint as being the best ever especially since the old masters uses them and therefore, some fanatics keep bragging non-stop that they make their own and uses only handmade paint while manufactured paint is considered as bad as they have all kinds of chemicals inside them and are ripping consumers off.

Furthermore, it seems like if they uses old master materials, they will paint like the old masters.

But are the old masters as egoistic as we are today?

Here's what it might be for the old masters:

- Imagine if I am one of the old masters and I uses handmade paint. Could it be because I do not have a large pool of brands of ready-made paint to choose from?

- I do not add various chemicals to enhance my paint because I have no idea what to add?

- I am using the latest modern techniques (of their time) to paint my work and constantly developing new and better techniques. I do not try to use ancient materials and techniques to do my work just because they are old master techniques.

Therefore, I would wonder if we are getting too impractical in the way we are painting today when we try to "act" like we are elite by going old master?

I believe each brand of paint has its own reason for the amount of pigment, oil and additives and we should judge them based on how they REALLY perform for the way they are made.

You have a lot of beautiful areas to paint in S'pore. I've spent a lot of time there on business. The Zoo and National Gardens are some of the best in the world. I tried to take photos on the night safari, but they didn't come out so well.

Midwest Painter
08-24-2001, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Dactyl
Old Holland has sent a reply to my query regarding the permanence of some of their colors.



Many thanks for your e mail and the points raised theirin.

We regret the delay in answering your questions, unfortunetly our computer
system was down for some time.

We find the queries raised re the lightfast ratings of our paints
interesting, and these have been passed to our research laboratory for
further investigation. It would help us considerely if you could forward the
exact details of your test methods to enable our research laboratary to
replicate your method under controlled conditions.

With regard to PR83, which we describe in our literature as nearly
lightfast, we currently have a research project underway to replace this
with the best possible lightfast organic pigments available.

As you will appreciate these tests will take some time to complete, however
as soon as our results are available we will contact you.

Once again thank you for drawing this to our attention and we are looking
forward to receiving your testmethods at your convenience.

Sincerely

Old Holland Classic Colours
E. de Beer



Dactyl


It sounds like they know they have a problem.

Luis Guerreiro
08-24-2001, 01:48 PM
I have received a reply from Old Holland also.
It doesn't sound like they know they have a problem at all.
We raised this issue. The only pigment they were already doing research in order to replace it, is PR83.
I have sent a reply back to Mrs. E. de Beers to thank her for the excellent professionalism and co-operation with us and to reiterate my total confidence in the quality of Old Holland.
I took the chance to inform Mrs. E. de Beers that I will continue to purchase Old Holland colours as I trust their competence and professionalism.
Let's not feel pessimistic about this matter. Old Holland enjoys a hugely excellent reputation in Europe and America. They will never take the risk of sending that reputation down the drain.
Besides, compared with other manufacturers, Old Holland has shown a far better approach. Where some manufacturers just ignore the artists or worse, stubbornely maintain their positions, even if evidently wrong, Old Hollad has actually put into action in literally 24 hours a Research Investigation leading to a resolution of the problem if there is a problem (which we don't know for a fact). They should be praised for their competence and I must say I have no reason to doubt them at this point in time.
I have no problems in continuing to buy Old Holland at all I have to say.
Luis

Einion
08-25-2001, 02:04 AM
Okay Luis, your devotion to Old Holland is admirable, if perhaps a little blinkered, but let's take a look at what you've posted.

Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
It doesn't sound like they know they have a problem at all. We raised this issue.
Fair enough point, things slip through the cracks occasionally and sometimes manufacturers have to rely on feedback from their consumers to inform them of problems. It happens with cars, which cost a hell of a lot more than paint and potentially put life at risk, so we have to accept that these things happen now and then even if we don't like it.

The only pigment they were already doing research in order to replace it, is PR83.
Okay, now here is where I have my first problem. They're still doing research? How long does it take to figure out that it needs replacing and subsequently what with? Kee-rist, this isn't rocket science - they substituted for Naples Yellow already, no doubt for Sepia, Van Dyck Brown, Indigo etc. etc. so what's the hold up guys? The fact that it took all the other established manufacturers so long to replace the colour (to be fair, others still haven't as well) is a reflection of nothing more than their resistance to change, and/or their unwillingness to acknowledge the problem in the first place, not on how difficult the problem is.

...reiterate my total confidence in the quality of Old Holland... I trust their competence and professionalism.
This seems a bit premature! :D

Old Holland enjoys a hugely excellent reputation in Europe and America.
Obviously you've never talked to any watercolour painters! :)

Sorry to disillusion you mate, but before monitoring online forums I had never once heard a good word about their products in twenty years, hence my considerable consternation at their popularity amongst oil painters here and elsewhere. Anyone ever wonder why they are so hard to find, even when comparably-expensive Continental brands like Sennelier and Schminke are stocked?

Besides, compared with other manufacturers, Old Holland has shown a far better approach. Where some manufacturers just ignore the artists or worse, stubbornely maintain their positions, even if evidently wrong,
Okay, are you talking from experience here? How many paint manufacturers have you actually contacted with similar queries? To illustrate that you can't judge just by reputation, I emailed the webmaster of the Daler-Rowney site last month in hopes of being able to contact someone with a pigment query. In due course I received a reply with the email address of their Technical Manager who I then sent my query to and within a week I had the pigment information I had requested (including the full Colour Index Numbers), despite the fact that all three tubes in question were at least a decade old. Now that is good customer support, regardless of what I think of their products.


Since this thread is all about quality of product it's worth listing all that I think is wrong with Old Holland. My position on their products was based largely on their watercolours so I've kept my counsel to a large extent, not wanting to assume their oils showed the same careless disregard for permanence (also bearing in mind the significant added protection of an oil binder). Now that I know they use the same pigments in all of their lines... well. I notice that although their website had pretty pictures of their enormous colour range nowhere can you find the listed pigments - even under the link to pigments they don't tell you what they sell!

To illustrate the point I have made previously about their marketing phaf, in one breath they claim all their pigments are 100% lightfast, then in the next they admit that at least one of their paints is "nearly lightfast"... obviously they use some definition of the word lightfast I wasn't previously aware of. And, according to the Handprint site, they also offer several fugitive pigments but without any pigment lists I can't confirm if this is still the case.

Then there is the stone roller issue, mythologized in the OH product literature. Interesting that Winsor & Newton also use stone rollers for some of their pigments but they don't make a big song and dance about it, in fact they barely consider it worth a mention (see Step Four - Milling on page 61 of their Oil Colour Book* downloadable <A HREF=http://www.winsornewton.com/>here</A>.

And to top it all off, their range includes 29 greens (6 down on previously), 35 earths/browns, 28 blues and roughly 31 reds... give me a break! Someone obviously forgot to inform them that single-pigment paints are a good idea... I for one prefer to mix my colours, not have someone else do it for me. To be even-handed virtually every manufacturer is guilty of this to some extent, but not many offer over 160 colours!

Einion

*Worth reading closely for anyone interested in oil media.

Dactyl
08-25-2001, 04:18 AM
Einion:

I don't know if you've noticed, but another semi-questionable pigment Old Holland is fond of is PY3 - Hansa Lemon Yellow. It's been around since the 1920's and ASTM rates it as lightfastness II in oils. OH uses it straight in Scheveningen Yellow Lemon and in mixtures in Viridian Green Light, Cinnabar Green Deep Extra, Gamboge Lake Extra, Permanent Green Deep, Permanent Green Light, O-H Bright Green, O-H Yellow Green, O-H Green Light, and O-H Yellow Brown. Most of these are mixtures of 4 or 5 pigments - surely they could have used a more permanent pigment in its place without affecting the finished product.

Dactyl

Titanium
08-25-2001, 07:04 AM
Einion ,

my confession - I have only ever used - Rembrandt , W and N and
a cheapo Chinese oil paint and that was before 1982 .

I am guilty of the Old Holland endorsement programme . I will not do that anymore.

If someone had the money and time , testing Old Holland paints for fillers [ ahem - white pigments ] might just let the cat out of the bag.

As a hand muller , it is always a little strange to watch my cad. yellow light , turn a commercial tube's Ultramarine Blue - light
green yellow .
Those mills may be able to disperse pigments in oil better than
I can do by hand , but I figure they still have to use enough oil
to make the paint work .

Same way I can remove the excess oil from my paint .

I really don't need someone adding extra ingredients into
my paint and then me running the risk of yellowing , through
low actual pigment content.
Titanium

DanielO
08-25-2001, 10:04 PM
[i]Originally posted by shawn gibson [/i

What frightens me the most is...grinding, really grinding with a mortar and pestle (which I have, but am very afraid to use).



What exactly frightens you about grinding? I use a mortar and pestle regularly with no problem.

Einion
08-26-2001, 10:54 AM
Dactyl, I use PY3 myself in acrylics so I don't want to come down too hard on it :) but you are right, there are better pigments in this hue position available now. Thanks for the info on the OH greens, I had read previously that many of their mixes contained 4 or 5 pigments which is a little ludicrous. I am pretty certain I could match every colour with a maximum of three pigments, as most experienced colour users could.

Your post also reminds me to ask, does anyone have a list of the pigments used in the Old Holland range that they could maybe scan in?

Originally posted by Titanium
If someone had the money and time , testing Old Holland paints for fillers [ ahem - white pigments ] might just let the cat out of the bag.
Hehe, yeah I would love to do that myself. Even a simple microscopic analysis of their paints might turn up some interesting results I'd bet.

Those mills may be able to disperse pigments in oil better than I can do by hand , but I figure they still have to use enough oil
to make the paint work .
Yes, I was just reading about the oil requirements of a few pigments on the Kremer site. Genuine Naples Yellow apparently can require as little as 15% oil. The loose consistency of some tube oils really makes me wonder about how much pigment they are actually packing in there! And considering the premium prices attached to some brands...

BTW do you remember the brand of the cheapo Chinese oil paint? I might have used some of their products when I lived in Hong Kong!

Einion

EastDevil
09-10-2001, 05:22 AM
Dear all,

Below are some general observation o the following brands of oils which I have. Please remember that these are just personal observation and it could be just me or otherwise.

Brands:
Old Holland, Blockx, Rembrandt, Daler-Rowney, Winsor & Newton.

Oily Ones:
They are all pretty oily with Daler-Rowney a champion as it oils non-stop. They are ranked in the following order in this aspect as Daler-Rowney, Blockx, Rembrandt, Old Holland, Winsor & Newton. Seems like all the WN tubes I have are always drier. Some Rembrandts have quite a lot of oil as well that I can actually "pour" it out onto a tissue and see it drip and drip. ;)

Beautiful Ones:
Rembrandt seems to be the most consistently beautiful among them all with Blockx and Old Holland close next. But the Blockx Cobalt Violets, Yellow Ochre, Capucine Yellow Light are wonderful and the Old Holland earths and blues are better. Daler-Rowney are all consistently good enough although it doesn't really impress while Winsor & Newton doesn't seems generally nice to me at all. This could be a very personal thing though.

Pigment Load & Stuff:
Daler-Rowney generally the lightest even if they are 38ml while Winsor & Newton is heavier than them even though it is 1ml less. As you guys will expect, Old Holland is heaviest compared to its 40ml counterpart Rembrandt. I would say Old Holland and Blockx are tops in this aspect.

Usage & Handling:
Honestly, they are all very good and there's not that drastic difference among them although Winsor & Newton is still too dry and Daler-Rowney is too oily. The impression that I have gotten from this forum about Old Holland (probably too much pigment load talk) is that it will feel like cement out of a tube but I find that Old Holland feels great! But Rembrandt is best in this aspect.

Therefore, my own personal conclusion is to stick to Old Holland, Rembrandt and Blockx.

This observation is conducted from only a very limited quantities of each brands and might not be enough for a more accurate comparison:
Daler-Rowney: 33 tubes
Rembrandt: 40 tubes
Old Holland: 10 tubes
Blockx: 6 tubes
Winsor & Newton: 18 tubes

sarkana
09-10-2001, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by EastDevil
There have been "religious" obsessions with handmade paint as being the best ever especially since the old masters uses them and therefore, some fanatics keep bragging non-stop that they make their own and uses only handmade paint while manufactured paint is considered as bad as they have all kinds of chemicals inside them and are ripping consumers off.


being one of the religious fanatics about handmade paint, i would like to briefly clarify my position on this topic:

i don't think manufacturers are necessarily trying to rip off artists by adding modern chemicals and stabilizers. stabilizers of some kind are absolutely necessary to keep paint from separating in the tube. of course, many brands add additional filler to reduce the amount of pigment used, or else to minimise the differences in the way various pigments handle. it is these last two practices i object to.

my own studio practices have led me to believe that handmade paint is the very best. my mediums perform better, my mixtures are clearer, and i enjoy painting more when i not fighting any adulterants. but most artists don't have the time or desire to do this, so manufactured paints with the least amount of filler are the next most desirable.

i myself paint modern subject matter and could care less about imitating old masters. when it comes to materials, in many cases the old ways are the good ways. pigments like ultramarine and lead white handmulled in linseed oil have stood the test of time and there is no reason to use a substitute. but on the other hand, many modern pigments and manufacturing techniques offer clear advantages over traditional ones. the educated modern master has a clear sense of which modern innovations to incorporate and which traditional recipes to stick to.

artists should use whatever works for them. for some, brand loyalty is an article of faith! if you like the way W&N handles (for example), i am not going to try to convert you to another brand. but i am going to suggest you try handmade paints because you might find it is a pleasant experience!

EastDevil
09-10-2001, 11:13 PM
Sarkana,

I would definitely try making paint on my own one of these days for the experience of it. But unfortunately, I do not know anybody around me who could show me how.

shawn gibson
09-11-2001, 11:29 AM
EastDevil, I'm obviously not sarkana, but:


Grab some earth colours, some oil, a palatte knife and a good surface for dispersing, and go for it...I learned from the net, still learning, and a lot to still be gleaned from the written words (here, etc.) of those who have it down...

It's not as much as it seems. You can't really make 'bad' paint if you use common sense...it just seems more experience is better. Like cooking, you don't add curry to donuts, and you're ok; but as you do it more, you get better and better at making a mouthwatering dish.

:)

EastDevil
10-10-2001, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by robinsn


I wouldn't ignore pigment or lightfastness either and in the brand I decided to be my primary brand (Blockx), both of those attributes are tops.



What are the Blockx colours that you are using?

robinsn
11-25-2001, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by EastDevil


What are the Blockx colours that you are using?

I've got 28 different colors of blockx. I doubt you want a complete list. Was there something specific you had in mind with the question?

EastDevil
11-26-2001, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by robinsn


I've got 28 different colors of blockx. I doubt you want a complete list. Was there something specific you had in mind with the question?

I was interested in which are the better colours they have in your opinion or preferred ones.

I have 13 of the colours and most are very nice. They are mostly pretty oily.

sarkana
11-26-2001, 09:02 AM
thanks, shawn!

making ones one paint is really not that hard. if you just set aside some time before each painting session to make what you need, you'll probably get into the rhythm of it. try some easier colors like raw sienna or chromium oxide green.

an excellent reference is ralph mayer's 'the artists handbook of materials and techniques'. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670837016/qid=1006783211/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/102-4829723-0304163

shawn, i'd be interested in some of the information that's online, if you wouldn't mind posting links...

shawn gibson
11-26-2001, 10:49 AM
Hey sarkana,
The best one I've found for practical use is this one:
http://www.noteaccess.com/MATERIALS/MStudio.htm


Interesting tidbits (often more about pigments than grinding paint, but fun stuff!!!):
http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/minerals/pigments.htm
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/paint1881.htm
http://www.jcsparks.com/painted/pigment-chem.html
http://www.labthink.com/paint.htm

I recently cleaned out my bookmarks, I had plenty more totally pertinent to grinding. I'll keep looking and get back:)

The best place I've found, is right here, and a couple of other active forums on the net. Nothing like sharing and hearing others' experiences--often that's enough to get you started yourself eh?


shawnJ

robinsn
11-26-2001, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by EastDevil


I was interested in which are the better colours they have in your opinion or preferred ones.

I have 13 of the colours and most are very nice. They are mostly pretty oily.

Ah! My favorites in general are the cadmiums, mars, and blues. Especially - Transp Mars Yellow, Golden Ochre, Turquoise Green, Virmillion, Cad red and yellow, Viridian, Ultramarine blue. I have not found them to be oily at all except the Mars Violet and I think one other that I don't recall. The Mars Violet drips of oil for some reason, though I really like this color and use it a lot. The consistency of all the others is perfect for me, but I guess someone who is used to OH might consider them oily. I liked OH, but never really cared for how dry most of them were. If you want to talk oily - Gamblin! Every Gamblin color I had (about half a dozen) poured out more oil than color each time.

Which Blockx colors do you find oily? How do you define oily?

lorcher
11-29-2001, 01:26 PM
GAMBLIN OILS WORK VERY WELL--GOOD PRICE AND SMOOTH. MIXES WELL WITH MEDIUMS. WWW.GAMBLINCOLORS.COM
ITS THE ONLY OIL PAINT I LIKE TO USE.

EastDevil
11-29-2001, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by robinsn


Which Blockx colors do you find oily? How do you define oily?

Ultramarine Violet, Cobalt Violets, Cobalt Green, Indanthrene Blue, Blockx Green. But the most is Ultramarine Violet.