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abstract23
10-26-2013, 02:56 AM
Hi,

I have read a lot about dry mounting sanded and unsanded pastel papers on various backing surfaces but here is my need.
I know readymade boards with pastel paper mounted on them are widely available. However, I have some amount of pastel paper that needs to be dry mounted as I want to try wet underpainting before using pastels, hence will have to mount the paper on some hard backing.
I know gatorboard is a good choice and so is grafix double-sided archival tape but those are not available here in Europe(as much as I have googled, and one becomes instantly poor if ordering from the US to a non-US destination due to the skyhigh postage rates, and then the local customs demolish what's left of you).
I am trying not to use foamboard(Richard Mckinley suggests not using it in one of his blogs) and do not prefer to spend time coating hardboards with GAC, gesso and god-knows-what recommended in some posts here.

Hence, after keeping the above in mind, are there any other options that would be a good way to dry-mount the paper and know that the backing, the mounting tape or whatever accessories get attached to the painting, will be about as good as archival?

Thanks.
Anoop

Davkin
10-26-2013, 12:46 PM
Hmm...you've done a pretty good job of shooting down every readily available option. :lol: The only other readily available backing board would be mat board, make sure you use at least acid free, but IMO that won't be any better than acid free foam board which is what I use as well as several professional artists that I'm aware of, (a couple of them I personally know.). If you don't want to pay for the Grafix adhesive sheet, (I don't) and you don't want to use wet mediums as adhesive, (I don't either) and you don't have access to a dry mounting machine, (even if you do it can be expensive to use!), then the only option I can think of is the one I use, acid free spray adhesive.

David

abstract23
10-26-2013, 01:53 PM
Yes I have a habit of making things harder for myself :lol:
But having said that, I think there should be easier choices (other than the easiest of buying off-the-shelf artboards with pastel paper already mounted) or even why don't we have gatorboard here in europe!!! In all the forum talks I have been to on WC, I haven't yet seen someone from Europe mentioning a gatorboard solution. I see that foamboard is very commonly used by even professionals everywhere, but than Richard McKinley mentions that foamboards are not durable and prone to breakage or something on those lines.
You mention mat board, is that the same as card board? Also, did you mean the 3M display spray that you use? Is there a thread here where I can read about that process that you use for mounting?

Hmm...you've done a pretty good job of shooting down every readily available option. :lol: The only other readily available backing board would be mat board, make sure you use at least acid free, but IMO that won't be any better than acid free foam board which is what I use as well as several professional artists that I'm aware of, (a couple of them I personally know.). If you don't want to pay for the Grafix adhesive sheet, (I don't) and you don't want to use wet mediums as adhesive, (I don't either) and you don't have access to a dry mounting machine, (even if you do it can be expensive to use!), then the only option I can think of is the one I use, acid free spray adhesive.

David

NRC
10-26-2013, 02:01 PM
I've never dry mounted nor used wet underpainting as yet. Curious, an iron doesn't work for flattening and dry mounting?

DAK723
10-26-2013, 02:38 PM
Many years ago, I had a painting dry mounted at a framing shop. I imagine you want a cheaper solution, but it might be worth looking into. Perhaps printing shops have dry mounting equipment, too. Not sure.

What type of paper are you looking to mount? Perhaps it can be used with a wet underpainting without a permanent mounting solution, but just clipping it to a board to keep it stretched while painting. Personally, I never permanently mount my paintings to any board when framing.

While foam board can warp when dry mounting, so can many other boards. I wouldn't hesitate using it - even if many don't like that it is not archival. I have drawings that have foam board backing that have been hanging in my parent's house since 1975. Seems durable enough!

Don

Colorix
10-26-2013, 02:57 PM
Panduro has double tack sheets, but I've not used them so I don't know how good they are.

abstract23
10-26-2013, 03:11 PM
Where I live it is really expensive to get a dry mounting done. But also it sounds fun to do your own mounting on boards and I want to give it a try.

Perhaps you are right in suggesting clipping it to a board to keep it stretched while painting, its just that with a hard backing it can be easier to handle the painting if it turns out to be good enough to preserve.
I have a lot of 50x70 Fisher 400 paper (very similar to the UART paper in the US) that I will eventually cut and paint on and want to moun it on a hard backing for preservation. That paper accepts wet underpainting, just like Wallis or Pastelmat, and heaps of pastel layers.
I must mention that a hard backing is really not necessary if a wet underpainting is not performed, but I do intend to as a matter of wanting to try it, hence my need to know which is a good, easily available, easy-to-handle hard backing.

Many years ago, I had a painting dry mounted at a framing shop. I imagine you want a cheaper solution, but it might be worth looking into. Perhaps printing shops have dry mounting equipment, too. Not sure.

What type of paper are you looking to mount? Perhaps it can be used with a wet underpainting without a permanent mounting solution, but just clipping it to a board to keep it stretched while painting. Personally, I never permanently mount my paintings to any board when framing.

While foam board can warp when dry mounting, so can many other boards. I wouldn't hesitate using it - even if many don't like that it is not archival. I have drawings that have foam board backing that have been hanging in my parent's house since 1975. Seems durable enough!

Don

abstract23
10-26-2013, 03:16 PM
Panduro has double tack sheets, but I've not used them so I don't know how good they are.

Just saw your post right after I had replied to Don's.
Sounds awesome that Panduro would keep double tack sheets. My nearest outlet is in Eskilstuna, is worth checking that option out too. Its quite a well stocked paper and scrapbooking shop and the guys working in there should hopefully know how good the double tack sheets are. Thanks Charlie.

Davkin
10-26-2013, 03:47 PM
Yes I have a habit of making things harder for myself :lol:
But having said that, I think there should be easier choices (other than the easiest of buying off-the-shelf artboards with pastel paper already mounted) or even why don't we have gatorboard here in europe!!! In all the forum talks I have been to on WC, I haven't yet seen someone from Europe mentioning a gatorboard solution. I see that foamboard is very commonly used by even professionals everywhere, but than Richard McKinley mentions that foamboards are not durable and prone to breakage or something on those lines.
You mention mat board, is that the same as card board? Also, did you mean the 3M display spray that you use? Is there a thread here where I can read about that process that you use for mounting?

By mat board I'm just talking about the material used for matting paintings in frames. Some people just prime the mat board with Colorfix pastel primer or a homebrewed primer and paint with pastel right on that. Foam board can warp a bit, but not much and if you frame it right it's held in place well enough to counteract that very minor warpage. I guess where foam board might be vulnerable is the corners during handling but you won't see small dents once the painting is framed, but careful handling will prevent even that issue. Any spray adhesive that's acid free will be fine, though I know artists that use the 3M industrial grade stuff, so far they are getting away with it but I wouldn't recommended it. Acid free spray adhesive is usually marketed for mounting photos. All I do is spray the back of the paper, I do not spray the foam board. I wait a minute for the adhesive to tack up then carefully align one end of the paper to the foam board and just gently press that one end down. Then I use a small brayer, (hard roller) to gently roll the paper down from one end to the other being careful to not trap any air. Once the paper is down and I'm confident there are no bubbles I roll over it aggressively back and forth to firm the paper down. If you do get a bubble you can often get rid of it by poking the bubble with a hobby knife and then running the roller over the area, you may have to repeat the procedure two or three times. I use Uart paper which is very stiff paper, lighter paper will require you go more slowly and with more care. I wouldn't even try this with anything but sanded paper such as Uart, Wallis or Colorfix.

David

DAK723
10-26-2013, 04:53 PM
I realize that this is just one man's opinion, but if the paper is similar in thickness to Uart, then you probably don't need to mount it even if you do a wet underpainting. As for mounting paintings to make preserve them, this can be a somewhat of a double-edged sword. Yes, it makes the painting sturdier and easier to handle for sure, but there is a flip side. As I mentioned earlier, I never permanently mount my paintings to a board because I want the painting to be completely independent of any other surface or material. Because if that backing material does become ruined, or warps or bends, or becomes brittle, I don't want the painting to become ruined or have to remove the painting from the backing. I realize that not everyone does this, but this is how I was taught to best preserve the painting itself. When storing the painting or framing it - I "hinge-tape" the painting to the backing board. This way the paint hangs free - being attached only on the top end. Being free also allows it to expand and contract with changes in temperature and humidity, as well as keeping it independent of the backing board if you want to change the method of framing.

Again, this is just my opinion and you can completely ignore it! I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind not permanently mounting to any board.

Don

Colorix
10-26-2013, 05:47 PM
I agree, it is really not necessary to mount Fisher 400. I've used water on it, and it doesn't warp (at least if you wet all of it). It might get "curled" -- bow a bit -- as it "remembers" being rolled, but it hasn't happened to me. But hey, if you want to experiment, go for it! You could mount it on masonite, or MDF, or mat board (passepartoutkartong), although the matboard may curve a bit too.

Davkin
10-26-2013, 06:24 PM
I agree, it is really not necessary to mount Fisher 400. I've used water on it, and it doesn't warp (at least if you wet all of it). It might get "curled" -- bow a bit -- as it "remembers" being rolled, but it hasn't happened to me. But hey, if you want to experiment, go for it! You could mount it on masonite, or MDF, or mat board (passepartoutkartong), although the matboard may curve a bit too.

I guess I should mention that my reason for mounting is that my Uart came on a roll and I have found no way to satisfactorily flatten it. Yes, Uart normally does not need to be mounted to take a wet wash.

David

Davkin
10-26-2013, 06:28 PM
Where I live it is really expensive to get a dry mounting done. But also it sounds fun to do your own mounting on boards and I want to give it a try.

Perhaps you are right in suggesting clipping it to a board to keep it stretched while painting, its just that with a hard backing it can be easier to handle the painting if it turns out to be good enough to preserve.
I have a lot of 50x70 Fisher 400 paper (very similar to the UART paper in the US) that I will eventually cut and paint on and want to moun it on a hard backing for preservation. That paper accepts wet underpainting, just like Wallis or Pastelmat, and heaps of pastel layers.
I must mention that a hard backing is really not necessary if a wet underpainting is not performed, but I do intend to as a matter of wanting to try it, hence my need to know which is a good, easily available, easy-to-handle hard backing.

Sorry I didn't read this response very closely before. I agree with Don and Charlie, you don't need to mount this paper, even for a wet underpainting, it's heavy enough that it can take a wash without buckling. Again, the only reason I mount Uart is because I made the mistake of buying it on a roll.

David

abstract23
10-27-2013, 06:26 AM
That is something I did not know about the Fisher400 (that it doesn't need mounting even if doing a wet underpainting). In that case, it should work if I just clip it (or apply masking tape to attach it to the painting board) and off I go to form my bundle-of-joy :D
And that hinge-tape idea is wonderful and makes so much sense, Don.

Hey big thanks to Charlie, David and Don, you guys are amazing :clap:

abstract23
10-27-2013, 09:20 AM
Charlie, what do you buy if you want to use rubbing alcohol or denatured(?) alcohol for an underpainting?
I have gone on to the apoteket site to see if those are available but I couldnt find anything like that. Where can one buy those?

Colorix
10-27-2013, 10:47 AM
Anoop, I got isopropyl alcohol at Järnia in Sickla. I had to ask for it, they kept it locked up. It is tinted blue, but it is so weak it doesn't matter.

But. However. I actually prefer to use water although it dries more slowly. Water spreads the pigment better, when the alcohol sort of makes it sink into the paper (and spread it, yes, but not as much as water does). Also, I think the alcohol actually "sinks" the sand deeper into the glue on the paper. Maybe because the glue gets a bit "gooey" from the alcohol (it does dry firm, though), as the isopropyl is rather strong. And if I dilute it with water, well, I can as well use water.

And I tired of the mess, and of cleaning brushes, as it is much easier to spread the pigment out with a thin sheet of foam (the kind used as disposable wash cloths). It looks the same as a dried wet underpainting, and there's no drying time. Hm, I wrote an article, I think. Yes, page 8 of this pdf http://www.pastelguild.org/Scribbler/pastel_scribbler_may2013.pdf.

abstract23
10-27-2013, 11:03 AM
That sounds sound to use water, non-messy and easily available, just need a little patience for it to dry. I often get carried away reading what other pastellists use, and many had used alcohol, and than I also want to try :) But than water it is.

I am off to reading the article to that link. Thanks Charlie.