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AllisonR
10-09-2013, 11:39 AM
I would really like to do a copy of either Portrait of Maddalena Doni, or Madonna della sedia (Madonna of the Chair). For different reasons, though both are so beautiful.

Anyone want to join me?

Madonna della sedia (Madonna of the Chair) - fantastic composition, wonderful expressions, delicate fabric details... There are several different online versions of this painting - some light, some high contrast...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2013/133314-Raphael_madonna_della_sedia_the_madonna_of_the_chair_1515.jpg

Maddalena Doni - that lush purple fabric, that half transparent white veil over her shoulders, the classic, delicate background, moody clouds... There are many versions of this painting online, very different color casts.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2013/133314-Raphael_Portrait_of_Maddalena_Doni_1506.jpg

sidbledsoe
10-09-2013, 11:45 AM
wow mona lisa with a frown! I never saw that one before. looks like some great stuff to paint from.

ianos dan
10-09-2013, 12:04 PM
Hello there! nice paintings to copy AllisonR! The last one ,was made after Rafael saw Leonardo's Mona Lisa ,and he was so fascinated ,that he decide to make her portrait exactly in the same pose as Leonardo's painting.
It was said about Rafael ,that he managed to blend Leonardo's style with Michelangelo's .
Beautiful thread!

Nathalie Chavieve
10-10-2013, 10:41 AM
Raphael is one of my favorite painters : I like his very light and gentle way to handle the paints, lightness of his paintings. He has an extraordinary talent.

Good idea, Allison, and I'll probably join you in this challenge. The important thing about Raphael's paintings that they are remain in better conditions than Leonardo Da Vinci's paintings and it will make less complicated to observe the colors.
If you ask me, what painting I prefer to copy, I would say, the first one : Madonna della sedia (Madonna of the Chair) , because I like the motive and in general I like very much to paint Madonnas. The second painting is very beautiful too, but it really reminds Mona Lisa ( as Ianos dan mentioned ) and in this case I prefer to paint Leonardo's Mona Lisa.

friesin
10-12-2013, 09:58 AM
wonderful paintings!

Not that I thought I could ever reach his professinality, but maybe I#Ll try one of Raphaels'. BTW my favourites are his angels from his madonna which is in Dresden (I think)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/RAFAEL_-_Madonna_Sixtina_%28Gem%C3%A4ldegalerie_Alter_Meister%2C_Dresde%2C_1513-14._%C3%93leo_sobre_lienzo%2C_265_x_196_cm%29.jpg

I did them once in acrylics trying not to copy them but interprete them...:wink2:

My question about this challenge: could I choose any Raphael, or should I stay with the posted two?

AllisonR
10-12-2013, 03:57 PM
Nathalie, I am so excited you can also work on this Raphael. Madonna Della Sedia it is then! Dan, I hope you want to join in as well. Friesin - we all paint the same painting, so we can talk specifically about techniques - color palettes, what kind of underpainting we are making.... See this thread to see how we did it before - http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1318081 And I hope you join us.

That makes sense about Maddalena Doni being based on the Mona Lisa and that it would make more sense to copy the original Mona Lisa instead. Someday maybe (though probably not - been done too many times by too many people too badly; I don't need to add tot that bad pile!)

Maybe color will be easier with Raphael, but composition will be harder - now we have 3 figures! I still want to try.

Nathalie - regarding Leonardo's colors being hard to see - from yellowing and age - I have seen another version of La Bella Principessa called "color corrected" - I will post it in that thread.

I will try to get started on Madonna Della Sedia, at least a sketch, next week, but will take this slow, in between other work.

ianos dan
10-21-2013, 03:29 PM
so do l :) (will try to post at least a drawing of the first painting,maybe)
Join in everybody !

AllisonR
10-29-2013, 09:03 AM
I have finally worked on my copy. I will paint on wood. I found some birch that is at least 2 years old, best I can get. I have to cut it, then I will use rabbit skin, then gesso. 71cm, this is a big painting!

First I did a freehand drawing, which I really enjoyed making. How fun. It took a little less than 4 hours. I drew it small, not worrying about perfection but studying what I was looking at - really seeing the painting. It helped a lot, to see the details, learn the curves, laern the shape of the eyes….

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Oct-2013/133314-DSC_0003Raphael_Madonna_of_the_Chair_freehand_drawing.jpg

Then I did a drawing to size. I used a string on a pin to make the circle. I had difficultly trying to draw that big. So I didn't actually draw much freehand, I broke it into sections and used sight-size measurements: it was thoroughly unenjoyable. I then compared to the original, then made corrections with a different color. Then I drew a third time, by tracing, which was basically fixing the curves; except for St. John, his face was totally off, and the arm of the chair, which was also totally off. I hated drawing this, took 13 hours. I will never do this again. Next time I will force myself to draw freehand, even though it is so big. I will step way back to see the original. I will spend my time drawing freehand, and only measuring when needed; instead of this stupid way of mostly measuring and not much freehand.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-Oct-2013/133314-DSC_0008Raphael_Madonna_of_the_Chair_measure_trace_drawing.jpg

What I learned is Jesus has an impossible button nose. And St John I will have to be very careful with - his whole face is a difficult angle, his eyes are so difficult and placed so difficult.

Distortion.That arm of the chair is not drawn right on the original. Sorry Raphael, but it isn't. It was one of the hardest things for me to draw, because I wanted to draw it even on both sides, while the original has very odd curves that do not look the same on either side. Also, it looks more like an urn or odd perfume bottle or genie bottle to me, more than an arm of a chair. Also, what about the baby's small toe; to me it looks like it was chopped off.

adamrice
10-30-2013, 12:16 PM
wow allison, so much work! you are determined...

don't be so hard on yourself! it should still be fun

that said, i identify with your frustration. just tell yourself "at least i'm not as bad as adam" :D

i think your freehand drawing looks great, you should just stick with that as it obviously brings you more joy. you might get a more interprative version of the master copy, but who cares? there are many great artists that can make (close to) exact copies, no one can quite make an "allisonR" version but you. just my two cents.

in any event i'm looking forward to your process, you are brave to tackle a raphael

AllisonR
11-03-2013, 02:48 PM
Not much actual painting, but have cut my wood, applied rabbit skin twice, and have applied 2 coats gesso. From now on I will use PVA, as so many reports that rabbit skin glue's expansion-contraction is responsible for oil paintings cracking.

My thoughts on painting is to do a yellow ochre, with maybe a bit of black for my imprimatura. Then trace my drawing w charcoal and redrawing the lines in a dark earth paint. Or maybe tracing with white chalk and then redrawing the lines with white paint. Has anyone tried this light drawing method? Then an earth colored underpainting (raw umber, white) to establish light, medium, dark areas. I may open my Lead white, or stick to titanium. Then my verdaccio over the flesh areas. I think white, black, yellow ochre, maybe terre verte. Maybe also verdaccio over clothing? Then some vermillion and pink over the flesh. Then I will think about color.

Nathalie Chavieve
11-10-2013, 07:20 AM
Nice start, Allison. You have done lot of work on this drawing and it's looks very nice indeed.

I am not familiar with Raphael's painting technique, but while I was looking at Andre Fisch pages ( remember this french guy how painted a copy of "La Belle.... "?) , I found this image :

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2013/189689-184962_494431583910489_659365160_n.jpg

You can see , here he is making a copy of one of the famouse Raphael's painting " La Donna Velata". Interesting approach, don't you think ?

Marigold
11-11-2013, 06:17 PM
Hello Allison,

I love your project! Very ambitious, Raphael is one of the greatest. His paintings have such complete harmony, I could look at them for hours. The one you have chosen I have seen in Florence. The round shape is interesting. Are you actually going to paint on a round piece of wood, and how are you going to frame it?

My thoughts on painting is to do a yellow ochre, with maybe a bit of black for my imprimatura. Then trace my drawing w charcoal and redrawing the lines in a dark earth paint. Or maybe tracing with white chalk and then redrawing the lines with white paint. Has anyone tried this light drawing method?
With projects like this it is easy to obsess about the smallest steps - of course each step is essential to build up the painting, but I don't think the success of your painting will depend on the way you transfer your drawing :) . I have never redrawn the lines of a tracing with paint (which I find difficult, the lines get so thick and messy), I use red chalk and I found that the lines stay on very well, but I always had a fairly light ground never a dark one.

I am looking forward to the underpainting and the colors, it will be interesting to see how you approach this. The Donna Velata copy that Nathalie shows here is interesting too, the painter has great skill but I am shocked that he starts from a black ground! It don't think this is accurate for Raphael. I noticed when looking at the paintings in the Palazzo Pitti that the Paint was thickest in the dark areas. The paint seemed thin and delicate in the light areas (with exception of the highlights) and thickest in the darkest areas. Especially at the edges where lighter shapes blend into the dark background there were sometimes thick layers of glazes - which seem unnessessary when starting from a dark ground, so I assume the ground was lighter and the darks had to be built up.

Then my verdaccio over the flesh areas. I think white, black, yellow ochre, maybe terre verte. Maybe also verdaccio over clothing?
I am very curious how you will go about your verdacchio painting, but why would you use verdacchio in the fabrics? In this particular painting I love the colors, they are so clean and beautiful... I would stay away from any black or green at least for the red and yellow areas.

This will be great, please post your progress!

AllisonR
11-20-2013, 12:46 PM
Hi folks. I have made some progress. 1st the wood, 2 coats rabbit skin. I will use PVA primer in the future, less chance of expanding/contracting and getting cracks in the painting. Then 6 coats gesso, sanding in between. I used some acrylic yellow ochre mixed in the last 6 two gesso layers, which made a lovely golden hue and served as my imprimatura.

Then I put charcoal on the back of my drawing and traced it onto the wood. Then I painted the lines over, I think in raw umber. Then I made my under layer with burnt umber. I tried to make the values by just thinning the umber more and more with a 3xturp 1xlinseed mix, but I could not get the brown light enough, so I ended up using zinc white as well. I do like the watercolor effect. I will let this dry and then make an verdaccio on the flesh areas with black, yellow ochre and lead white.

This is a big painting, 71cm diameter, which in some ways makes it easier. I hope some of you all will join in. I'd love to have some company!!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2013/133314-DSC_0010_Raphael_Madonna_of_the_Chair_measure_trace_paint_charcoal_lines.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2013/133314-DSC_0089_Raphael_Madonna_of_the_Chair_Burnt_Umber_+white_underlayer.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Nov-2013/133314-DSC_0095_Raphael_Madonna_of_the_Chair_Burnt_Umber_+white_underlayer_finished.jpg

adamrice
11-20-2013, 07:52 PM
wow! lovely, amazing work. her expression is fantastic at this stage - try and keep that! i don't have time to join you, but i'm enjoying watching

ianos dan
11-21-2013, 07:59 AM
Very impressive Allison ! are you going to use flemish technique on this one?
Nathalie:nice picture of Andre Fish copy ;l really don't think Rafael used grisaille ,but it's a good exercise ,and the result it's all that matters .
So ,nice underpainting ,beautiful line work ,and please post every step ,because it seems you will make a beautiful copy ,just be patient,don;t hurry :).
l will try to find some unfinished paintings by Rafael ,to help you in your work :).

ianos dan
11-21-2013, 08:33 AM
Here are some details ,you can search on Google Art ,online gallery ,high res details .
Some of his paintings;
First is an underpainting ,here you cans see the golden preparation for the flesh ,and also ,the application of the local color ,not grisaille.l'm just trying to say that he used his underpainting a lot ,some of his finished paintings have that areas unpainted ,he was smart enough to use it ,and left it ,gives a wonderful freshness ,although ,from the distance it seems very blended , some crosshatching is visible ,being a master of drawing .
These are the images were l tend to speculate that he used egg tempera for some of his underpaintings.
Be careful ,don't use to much dark ,let the flesh color to have a inner glow,l will dare to say that you could leave that golden imprimatura ,and just a wash of some green earth ,or raw umber for the shadows ,that's one of the secrets of his technique .
Ok ,the details:http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2013/1165823-detail2.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2013/1165823-detail_3.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2013/1165823-detail1.jpg

AllisonR
11-22-2013, 05:01 AM
Dan, thanks for your comments and pictures. Much to think about.

I will not do the full flemish technique - the 7 step method is really from today and I think each artist back then maybe did parts of the flemish technique, but not all of it. AS you say, Raphael did not have a heavy grisalle or verdaccio. I am not sure if I will do it. As you say instead keep it light and only add some raw umber or green earth to shadows.

On the other hand, I have just started using lead white and really want to make a verdaccio layer with it, for my own knowlede. Maybe I will do something in between? Maybe a sort of thin verdaccio layer, lighter than the actual values. In any case, Yes, I want that golden glow! Maybe I should do a golden verdaccio - not too greenish, by using less black. More to make transitions smooth. Hmm, some raw umber with a touch yellow ochre for shadows, not too much black in there, then adding lead white for mids and highlights. Then it will not appear so green.

ianos dan
11-22-2013, 05:19 AM
To help you more: l found on youtube ,a famous forger that lived in 70's ,he died in 80's ,but he made some interesting clips ,showing different techniques of different painters ,like :Titian,Rembrandt ,Turner,Degas,
The video l think your should look ,is the one he is painting in the style of Titian,.
You will see when he applies the white scumble over the underpainting .This method was forgotten,so look,think about your next steps ,and make your decisions:).
Probably a light scumble all over your underpainting will bring more light ,and will help you achieve greys ,without painting dead layer ,and save some time .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2HDOkhv07c

Nathalie Chavieve
11-22-2013, 06:18 PM
Allison: Nice start with your copy !

As I promised, I will join you in this challenge : I have started to work on the drawing already. I will use also wood for this copy, but not circle panel - just a square, because I do not have possibility to cut it.

I found some very bright picture of this painting where you can see some more details: a drapery on the background for instance.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Nov-2013/189689-300px-Raffael_026.jpg





Again I wonder on what the Child sits : it looks like the Virgin legs, but you never know ? What do you think ?
One more thing bothers me : what is these rays ( beams) coming from the Child's hair? And why Virgin and St.John has the Halo (nimbus) and the Child didn't ?

Nathalie Chavieve
11-22-2013, 06:28 PM
Nathalie:nice picture of Andre Fish copy ;l really don't think Rafael used grisaille ,but it's a good exercise ,and the result it's all that matters .



So do I . But I find it quite interesting approach, and as you have seen in the video you posted lately, Titian has used very dark grounds for some of his works, so why not Raphael ;)?

Anyway, I do agree with you, that Raphael was using the undrepainting a lot and most of his works looks very "light" and fresh and not heavy loaded with paint. But on the other hand, he has done some paintings with a darker backgrounds ,like this one, which may need more darker colors for underpainting ?

ianos dan
11-23-2013, 06:00 AM
Totally agree with you Nathalie ! Probably he used an imprimatura an underpainting that was best for the luminosity or darkness of the painting,but if you look online (l recommend Google Art site),you will see lots of his paintings made very light in underpainting;pale green ,yellow ocher ,this kind of colors).
Maybe ,but this is just my theory ,he used light imprimatura ,and than ,just made the dark background over ,leaving the flesh tones ,in the half shadow,and halftones ,to see through .
It's a possibility that Rafael could have been use this red earth imprimatura ,l'm not sure ,but you can us whatever technique you want,as long as your copy will look like the original.
Interesting ,that Tom Keating uses a white scumble over the imprimatura ,he named it Bottizar system (l think it sounded like this),in which ,the venetians established the greys ,- l found this revolutionary in the panting techniques ,because ,like he said ,it was never shown ,makes me think if Leonardo could have been applied it somehow?

AllisonR
11-25-2013, 05:09 PM
Again I wonder on what the Child sits : it looks like the Virgin legs, but you never know ? What do you think ?
One more thing bothers me : what is these rays ( beams) coming from the Child's hair? And why Virgin and St.John has the Halo (nimbus) and the Child didn't ?

Yes, I asked the same questions in my earlier post. It makes no sense to me either that Mary and St. John have halos and Jesus has weird rays. None of his other paintings have them either. However, imagine one there. I think it would look a bit silly, the three halos intersecting each other on the edges like rings. Maybe he thought it looked stupid and so gave him golden rays instead?

Also about the fabric - in this case I do think he sits on her knees, but it is just a hint. And why are his small toes nearly chopped off? And wait until you get to drawing the arm of the chair - it is very crooked - the original. Though I think the very hardest part of this painting will be getting the angles of the faces - baby jesus and st. John are both at such an odd angle. For me it will be very hard to get their faces to look normal.

I am still deciding what type of underpainting or verdaccio I will use. Yes, the main thing is to get that glowing freshness. When I look at Raphael paintings, some are quite light, others like this one are overall much darker; but all have that fresh glow. I think some grisaille or verdaccio is necessary, but does not have to be heavy or very green.

I have just found a painting attributed to Raphael I hadn't seen before. So beautiful - see here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MadonnaRosa.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
11-28-2013, 04:47 AM
Interesting ,that Tom Keating uses a white scumble over the imprimatura ,he named it Bottizar system (l think it sounded like this),in which ,the venetians established the greys ,- l found this revolutionary in the panting techniques ,because ,like he said ,it was never shown ,makes me think if Leonardo could have been applied it somehow?

In the matter of fact, I do think that leonardo was using this kind of technique in his works too. If you remember my posts in "La Belle...." from the book of F.Redelius about painting technique of Van Eyck - in this time Van Eyck was already using this kind of "veil" layer and this technique was known to the North Italian painters including Leonardo Da Vinci. I am strongly belive that he knew about those things and were using it in his paintings, especially if you take to the account that he was applying lot of glazes and scumbles and so on...

Nathalie Chavieve
11-28-2013, 04:59 AM
I am still deciding what type of underpainting or verdaccio I will use. Yes, the main thing is to get that glowing freshness. When I look at Raphael paintings, some are quite light, others like this one are overall much darker; but all have that fresh glow. I think some grisaille or verdaccio is necessary, but does not have to be heavy or very green.


You can use any technique in your copy as far as you think it will work for you. But I shall agree with Ianos Dan about that: North Italian painters of Renaissance wasn't using dead layer in their techniques. The Dead layer was developed later in Netherlands in 17 century .

AllisonR
11-28-2013, 06:25 AM
I don't think heavy grisaille, but I think a yellow underpainting. I found a fantastic pdf a the national gallery all about Raphaels early paintings, his pigments… so many details of how he worked, details of the paintings. They also have one on Rembrant, which I have not read yet.

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/technical-bulletin/technical-bulletin-vol-25

"Raphael’s method of modelling the flesh paints of his subjects in this early period followed closely the way in which the Perugino workshop painted and had its basis in the technique practised by Verrocchio and his followers. The consistent use of a faintly greenish-brown underpaint may well have been a development of the traditional method of underpainting flesh with terra verde, and modelling with brownish-green verdaccio based on mixtures of translucent yellow pigments combined with black (ABR - not so green - see his unfinished underpainting The Esterhàzy Madonna)…

The flesh colour is applied in thin, spare layers and the highlights are then developed by pulling an opaque layer of pinkish or brownish-pink paint over the semi-translucent undermodelling, which was generally of a rather golden greenish-brown tone. This lower layer was allowed to stand exposed for the shadows. The character of undermodelling in the flesh can be judged very well in the small unfinished panel in Budapest (Museum of Fine Arts), The Esterhàzy Madonna, usually dated to c.1507, in which the flesh paints were abandoned at this preliminary stage.

Frequently, the strongest shadows were then reinforced with a thin final brownish-grey glaze, dabbed with the fingers or stippled with a stiff brush, or, alternatively, with hatched strokes of dark colour on top of the lighter paint. the flesh layers are generally very thinly applied in comparison with the paints of the landscape backgrounds, sky, draperies and other elements…"

AllisonR
11-28-2013, 11:41 AM
I have now spent two days reading this wonderful pdf and studying Raphael's paintings on the National Gallery Website. The report is from his earlier works - 1504-5-6.. These older works are all much lighter, in all areas but especially in the backgrounds. His later works, including Madonna of the Chair from 1514, have darker backgrounds, even blackish. However, I think I can still use much of the info on his pigments and style for my study.

Raphael's pigments
His standard colors - azurite, ultramarine, verdigris, copper green glazes (derived from verdigris), lead tin yellow, vermiliom, red lake pigments (kermes, madder and brazilwood lake), yellow lake pigments, earth pigments, carbon black and lead white. Plus generous amounts of colorless glass in most of his colors, which contained magnese which is a siccative, and helped with transparency. Addtional colors - red lead, opriment, metalllic bismuth (warm dark grey), softwood pitch (translucent brown glazes).

Raphael's mediums
He used linseed and walnut, boiled and not. Many older tests said egg tempura, but the readings were often wrong because of all the broken glass in his paintings affecting the readings.

His gesso was composed of gypsum (calcium sulphate dihydrate), bound in animal glue, often over stirred or overheated, resulting in bubbles.The gesso was then covered with a very pale imprimitura consisting of a thin, off-white oil-bound layer containing lead white, small amounts of lead-tin yellow (less than c.5%) and varying amounts of glass. He transferred drawing by pouching, or squaring up for larger pieces, using fluid (pen?) drawing over his pouncing, and freehand small details and hatching. He ruled straight lines and used a compass for circles.

His painting method
The foregrounds, backgrounds and sky paints were laid in with broadly horizontal strokes, often leaving a brushmarked, slightly textured surface… The main elements of the compositions, including the figures, were left in reserve and the background paints were later brought around their outlines, sometimes by extending the horizontal brushwork up to a junction and sometimes by painting around the contour. Flesh areas very thin layers of paint.

The draperies tend to be more thickly painted...based on glaze-like surface paints over solid underlayers of an equivalent color. Raphael commonly applied a final layer of modelling to draperies, and sometimes also to flesh paint, by using dark hatched brushstrokes to reinforce an area of shadow. He also used his fingers to blend brushstrokes and efface transitions between mid-tones and shadow. He used ultramarine or ultramarine over azurite for the most intense blues of skies.

Now for my opinions
If I look at his other paintings, and what pigments and mediums he used to make them, I think I can guess what he used to make Madonna of the Chair.

Madonna of the Chair
Flesh - underpainting of flesh with faintly greenish-brown, terra verde, and modelling with brownish-green verdaccio based on mixtures of translucent yellow pigments combined with black. The flesh colour is applied in thin, spare layers and the highlights are then developed by pulling an opaque layer of pinkish or brownish-pink paint over the semi-translucent undermodelling, which was generally of a rather golden greenish-brown tone. (What I will do - underpainting in yellows + black, only tiny terre verde if at all. Light and golden. Then Pinkish-brown vermillion + something to neutralize it, with more lead white in highlights. Strongest shadows thin brownish-grey glaze, either hatched or stippled with stiff brush or rubbed with finger. Skin light and translucent. Alternate - flesh modeled with lead white, red lake and a little vermillion.)

Red shirt sleeve - is warmer than in the mond cricifiction - John the evangleist - which is red lake glaze (kermes and madder) over deep red underpaint of vermilion mixed with red lake. Darkest areas also contain black. And considerable glass.

Jesus's yellow shirt - like gold angle in mond cricifiction - lead tin yellow, yellow earth in warmer tones. Like yellow dress in Saint Catherine of Alexandria (no description). Similar to, but needs more orange, than the bench the Madonna sits on in the Madonna of the Pinks - lead tin yellow. Add red lake or red earth to warm the yellow? Lead tin yellow with yellow earth rich in iron oxide produces a very gold color like in the gold robe of horseman and center man in Procession to Calvary.

Her green shirt - like st johns robe and left angel in Mond Crucifiction - thickly painted, translucent deep green verigris glases over solid dark green underpainting of verdigris, lead tin yellow and white. Dark green shadows - like wings - I think either verdigirs and black or verdigris and red lake. Another option lead tin yellow, verdigirs and ultramarine. Another option - Like the left trees in st john the baptist preaching - underpainting of lead-tin yellow, yellow earth and a little verdigris. Followed by verdigris. Like the grass in st john the baptist preaching - underpainting of yellowish-green made from azurite, lead-tin yellow, yellow earth and lead white. On top verdigirs and lead-tin yellow or verdigris and yellow earth.

Her blue dress - I think something between, or a combination of, left dress (too purple) and right blue dress (too cool) in An Allegory 'Vision of a Knight' - left dress is purplish underlayer of ultramarine, red lake and white. Ultramarine and various amounts of white glazed on top. Right dress is pinkish-mauve combo of white, red lake and some ultramarine, with an ultramarine glaze over the bluest areas.

Her red-orange sleeve - like shield under sleeping knight in vision of a knight - modeled underlayer of orange-red vermillion with a red lake glaze. Can be dulled (like reflection in his armour) with red earth mixed with some black. Could also be simply vermillion and white.

Hair and cloth on her head - ? perhaps earth umbers with siennas to warm, lead white. Cooler Browns in her hair and stripes in head fabric similar to Saint Nicholas'es cope border - vermillion, black, white, orange earth and a little verdigris, with a mid-brown organic glaze called softwood pitch in walnut oil. For more warm golden brown like in the throne - lead tin yellow and earth pigments, with pure lead tin yellow in the highlights

Gold - halo, cross, bracelet, decorations on purse, fringe, shirt…. shell gold - Powdered gold mixed with gum arabic into a kind of gold ink, and applied with pen or brush. So called because it was originally mixed and stored in shells. ABR - gold paint + red, orange, whatever needed to warm up, possibly underneath. Option - gold leaf - add orange-brown mordant layer direct to imprimitura. Mordant is red lead and verdigris. Then gold leaf at end. Only for larger areas.

ianos dan
12-02-2013, 01:12 PM
Yes Nathalie !that dead layer ,from what l've learned was extensively used by the dutch school ,never heard about it in Renaissance ,but as l said months ago ,it's your choice ,and l respect and admire all techniques of paintings ;).
l'm so excited to see your copies ,both of you ,l think you will learn a lot from this copies :),and you will do a great job :)
Allison ,glad you have checked that online resource ,(this was recommended to me by Koo Schadler ); l have read it ,but it's great that you have made a sort of scheme or a note book ,very helpful ,thanks for sharing .
l personally think that this PDF is more valuable than other published materials ,because this is science ,not some invented theory ,because the restored is closer to the painting then anybody ,he is rightful to publish ,and not to speculate .lf l want to paint like a old master ,l will just by some of this books that are available on National Gallery site ,and just start to take notes ,or just paint :).On the other hand ,if l want to learn a technique developed by a contemporary artist ,based on old masters technique ,l will probably buy his or her book or DVD.
This information ,with images provided by Google Art will help you achieve more likeness ,and will make you work effectively .
Good luck both of you !
l will be watching:)

ianos dan
12-02-2013, 01:15 PM
The crosshatching was used by Rafael ,and it's visible in some areas ,he probably used some ink or small brush .You can do it with a neutral color ,not black ,to strong ,l think :)

AllisonR
12-03-2013, 11:14 AM
The crosshatching was used by Rafael ,and it's visible in some areas ,he probably used some ink or small brush .You can do it with a neutral color ,not black ,to strong ,l think :)

Yes, not black. According to the national gallery report he used grey-browns in flesh shadows, and used both hatching and flinger blending. I have further emailed the author about some of his underpainting methods and if he used Lead Tin Yellow deep or light, or both in his gesso.

AllisonR
12-03-2013, 11:48 AM
Studying, reading, looking… I found the most amazing image, because it shows in one painting many various levels of completion. Please find the larger image online, but here is a small version of Raphael Madonna with the Baldacchino:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Dec-2013/133314-Raphael_Madonna_with_the_Baldacchino_section_1507.jpg

As discussed earlier, his gesso was covered with a very pale imprimatura with Lead Tin Yellow type 1 light or deep. I am ordering the pigment from Kremer, but in the meantime using a substitute.

Based on his unfinished Madonna with the Baldaccio I am guessing over the golden imprimatura he did a first wash in a warm brown - perhaps burnt umber. Perhaps burnt sienna. No whites here. (see far left of painting - a strip is showing).

Then he did a grisaille underpainting (not verdaccio, I see no greens). I see a neutral brown and white underpainting, that is limited in value range from mid-dark to mid-light, no true darks and no true whites. I think raw umber and lead white. See the wall, ceiling, pillars...

Then he leaves the flesh alone. See face and hands of man to the right of the Madonna. Instead he works on 1st washes of fabric, objects, background…. See Madonnas blue dress, and the right angels red and teal dress. Not heavy colors, underpainting shows through. He uses each color, like blue for the dress, plus white for highlights and plus black or other color for shadows.

Then he works on flesh, only adding the whites. See guy on far right and the two figures on left.

Then more glazs on the clothes, objects, backgrounds. See angel on left.

Then more glazes on flesh - vermillion cheeks, midtone flesh color with some yellow, brown greys in shadows… See Madonna and Angels faces.

Then back to objects, then back to flesh… alternating and working until done.

I have also gone through Raphaels color list, and painted a million swatches and tried to find colors as close to his original palette. Obviously he did not use all colors in any painting. I don't know if this will be useful for you, but it will be to me. Original color on left, new color on right.

Azurite - Old Holland Scheveningen Blue (cool, pure), or Rembrandt Prussian Blue (cool, dirty) or Ultramarine.
Malachite - 30% OH Scheveningen Blue 70% OH Viridian Green Light
Verdigris - 75% OH Scheveningen Blue 25% OH Veridian Green Light
Ultramarine - Rembrandt Ulramarine Deep or OH French Ultramarine Light Extra
Lead tin yellow - OH Scheveningen Yellow Lemon (for Type 1 light), OH Cadmium Yellow Light (for type 1 deep)
Vermilion - OH Vermillion Extra
Red Lead - OH Cadmium Red Scarlet
Red Lakes - OH Kraplak Madder Crimson Lake or Rembrandt Permanent Kraplak Madder Deep, and OH Scarlet Lake Extra
Yellow Lake - OH Cobalt Yellow Lake
Softwood Pitch - Rembrandt Transparent Oxide Brown
Possible yellow - Rembrandt Naples Yellow Deep
Orpiment - OH Scheveningen Yellow Medium or OH Scheveningen Yellow Light
Earth pigments - Rembrandt or OH Raw Umber, Burnt Umber, possibly Raw Sienna, Burnt Sienna
Red Earth - Beckers English Red
Yellow Earth - Rembrandt Yellow Ochre or OH Mars yellow
Green Earth - OH or Rembrandt Green Earth Terre Verde
Black - OH Scheveningen Black (Carbon - warm) and / or Rembrandt Ivory Black (cool)
Lime White - Rembrandt or OH Zinc, possibly with bit of Titanium
Lead white - OH Cremnitz White
Gold - Rembrandt Light Gold (optional addition of OH Scheveningen Yellow Medium or Beckers English Red)
Silver - ???
Metallic Bismuth - silver, black, warm brown ???
Fine Powdered Glass - Kremer

Now is the time for me to stop studying and continue painting.

ianos dan
12-03-2013, 12:12 PM
That's exactly the painting l wanted to show you ,but l didn't find a very good resolution .
You see ,he basically worked very loose ,indicating the folds ,and large masses of shade.
he used a kind of broken color in this stage ,very subtle ,it was extensively used by Michelangelo on the Sixtine Chapel ,where the light side of the folds will be complementary with the shadows.Look at the folds on the angel form the right side,the shadows are painted with deep red ,where the lights ,indicated with a kind of blue.
Much to learn form them,and l must say ,it looks more easy for me to work like this ,then to use a Flemish method ,that requires details from the beginning ,it's takes a lot of energy :).,and you might loose it ,like l did ,when painting a still life :)...to hard for me :)

ianos dan
12-03-2013, 12:17 PM
Thanks for sharing ,l'm also looking at the colors ,l found to much ??
l've just checked Caravaggio's palette ,from Baroque era ,and he used few colors ,maybe 6 or 7 :)
But if you read there ,probably this were indeed the colors :)
Good luck and please post some photos !

AllisonR
12-03-2013, 01:30 PM
he used a kind of broken color in this stage ,very subtle ,it was extensively used by Michelangelo on the Sixtine Chapel ,where the light side of the folds will be complementary with the shadows.Look at the folds on the angel form the right side,the shadows are painted with deep red ,where the lights ,indicated with a kind of blue.

Yes. I am thinking here that part of this was learned from previous teachers. Where there were much less pigment options, therefore lights in blue and shadows in red. But Raphael was right at the time when there were starting to be more pigments, but the habits of before where still there. http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/intro/history.html - see medieval versus Renaissance. Also I think maybe these contrast colors were also a tradition in frescos - where one had to paint very fast a whole section for the day. And now in using only oils one could instead use many layers, or wet in wet over several days, but the habits of the old were still in his mind. Interested in knowing what you think.

Tony Irwin
12-17-2013, 02:00 PM
Hey guys - wanted to try some little studies before I go and wreck a nice big circular canvas!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Dec-2013/1311491-Page_2.jpg

With step two I was looking at it thinking "I really really like this..." - leaving the underpainting exposed gives it a fragility that seems really suitable for infants and the whole thing is glowing like a nativity scene.

By step three I was looking at it thinking "Nope. This ain't working." The flesh looks incomplete.

As you guys discussed earlier in the thread, a naples yellow imprimature would have served me better than the orange acrylic I had at hand - think it needs to be as close as possible to the local colour. (Which is obvious really - if I'm leaving the underpainting exposed then the imprimature should already look like flesh in value and hue. Doh).

Even so... I suspect it would still look incomplete. Think it would take more than a cooling wash of Raw Umber over the flesh shadows to bring the flesh all together at the end. Thoughts?

Would like to try again with a yellow imprimature, and also to try drawing and hatching a little bit with the brush at step one.

-------------
Edit: Just occured to me. If I thin my flake white, then the imprimature will shine through better - and there'll be much less contrast between the shadow flesh areas and the lit flesh areas.

AllisonR
12-20-2013, 01:04 PM
Hi Tony. I am glad you will join us! Your study is good practice. Your method is good, this is how Raphael would have painted, right over the wash, he would have made his background scenery and fabric and objects thick, and his flesh very thin layers. Don't worry how good or bad it works now, many more layers to come. Yes, the orange is not good. Raphael did an imprimatura of lead white with small amount of lead tin yellow in it - 5%. This is known. Makes a nice, glowing yellow background. Use Cadmium Yellow if you don't have/want lead tin yellow. Then, I think, he did a wash in earth color - raw or burnt umber - to establish light and shadows, and then direct to paint in color - so blue dress in blue, flesh in flesh colors… Like you have done.

AllisonR
12-20-2013, 01:11 PM
So I did the first color layer, based on my notes of what colors could be substituted for what I thought he used. For example, the green shirt as verdigris and lead yellow as 1st layer and later green glazes. So I made my verdigris and yellow substitutes. All of the colors were very bright, but I think he painted brighter than the painting is today. I made changes, for example I added a bit of earth red to the green shirt, because otherwise just too bright. Not happy with my flesh, but I will try to do better in the next layers. Took 2 days - 13.5 hours to do this layer. I am happy that I did not do a heavy grisaille or verdaccio, it would have ruined the colors.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Dec-2013/133314-DSC_0017_Raphael_Madonna_of_the_Chair_1st_color_layer.jpg

ianos dan
12-28-2013, 11:01 AM
Yes Allison! This is how l would paint a Rafael!
The colors are very bright ,and this was the time for applying it ,instead of doing a grisaille ,that would made this beautiful rich color to look dull.
l also like the method ,meaning that you are working from the background ,to the clothing ,leaving the flesh color,for the moment.that method was used also by Flemish masters :).
l see improvement ,looseness where needed ,and most important ,the rendering of the folds ,the fact that you are using this almost pure color ,it really has that 15th century look :)
Love the detail of the chair !
Keep posting !

Nathalie Chavieve
01-02-2014, 06:19 AM
Dear Allison

Happy Birthday ! Wish you lot of happiness, love and inspiration !






You have done a wonderful work on this copy : really beautiful , bright colors. You have captured the likeness with an original painting and this is important. Looking forward to see more of the progress.

Nathalie Chavieve
01-02-2014, 06:27 AM
As I promised I join you in this challenge : here is my drawing. It was made freehand - no tracing or using a grid method.

While I was drawing a child Christ I noticed that his left eye is painted in very odd manner and it looks very weird.....Did you notice it ?


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jan-2014/189689-_DSC0038.JPG

Nathalie Chavieve
01-02-2014, 07:46 AM
Here is an Imprimatura and transferred drawing.
This time I'll paint on chipboard, because I did not find good plywood - in our local store the plywood has a terrible quality, so I choosed a chipboard. It is a first time I am using this surface - it is quite nice and smooth, but it is heavy and needs LOT of priming : I applied 8-9 coats of a home made gesso. The chipboard was glued with a rabbit skin glue, before applying the gesso and when the gesso was completely dry, another coat of rabbit skin glue ( in jelly form ) was applied.
Then I applied an Imprimatura, which was made from Yellow ochre and Lamp black ( the Imprimatura was applied in a head, as I was preparing a few panels in the same time ).
The drawing was transferred to the panel with carbon paper and redrawn with brown ink.


The color on the picture came up quite pale : the Imprimatura has very golden hue .



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jan-2014/189689-2c.JPG

ianos dan
01-02-2014, 10:02 AM
Looking nice Nathalie! Glad you came back on the easel:).l see you are using a light imprimatura ,the one Rafael used it !Re you gonna use dead layer on this one?
l found the ear you have drawn, going to much in perspective,Rafael made the ear of his Virgin more side view ,but you made the details of the ear correctly.
Also ,the neck a little thinner than the original .
Very nice line and flow !
l'm very curious what colors you will choose for the underpainting !
Good job!
Happy new year and happy painting to all of you !
l made some time ago, a drawing ,just a sketch ,l didn't have time to paint .but at least ,this was all l could to for this thread ,because l really love this painter.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jan-2014/1165823-6.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jan-2014/1165823-1.jpg

ianos dan
01-02-2014, 10:12 AM
Oh ,almost forgot ,l made a very small experiment ,using egg tempera ,l will have to make another photo ,this was the first stage .
It was fun to experiment with this new medium.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jan-2014/1165823-drawing6.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jan-2014/1165823-drawing7.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
01-02-2014, 10:54 AM
Thank you, Ianos Dan !

I have noticed the ear too, after I transferred the drawing on the wood. I noticed that the placement of the ear also not very correct, but I'll fix it in the next stages . You are right about her neck too - will need to work on it as well.

I do not think that I'll use grisaille or dead layer - not all the paintings in the world was made in this method ;).

I think the color of underpainting will be not a pure Burnt Umber....


You have done a nice drawing , as always ! You are very good in drawings, I have to admit .


Nice experiment . Will be interesting to see the next steps : please, post it here, if it possible .
In the book of Cennino Cennini , he recommends to use a green color ( verdaccio ) in the shade areas of the face and body, before to apply a flesh tones.

ianos dan
01-02-2014, 11:08 AM
Yes ,the verdaccio ,green earth derives from the early icons ,and it was used only on the flesh areas ,as a base .
l used the same technique on this experiment ,a kind of dirty green ,and then warm colors over - it's nice because it dries instantly ,so ,l would probably use it for some underpaintings.
Thanks ,good luck in your copy !Post photos please , l always enjoyed watching unfinished paintings ,or in progress!

Nathalie Chavieve
01-03-2014, 08:56 AM
Yesterday I was working on the underpainting. Here is the result : the underpainting was made with Raw umber, Carbon black and very little of Alizarin crimson. Flesh was painted with Lead white, but only in some lightest areas of the skin.

In this underpainting I didn't wanted to go with very dark shadows and background, because , I actually didn't see very dark shadows in the original painting, except the background. Also, I have a doubt about the background : on some pictures I can clearly see the vertical wall between child Christ and Jt.John and behind the Virgin's back some kind of drapery, perhaps ? So, I didn't apply heavy color there because I want to work out all those things. What do you think about the background, guys : what can be there ? Nowdays I do not trust these black backgrounds at all : in most of the cases there was painted something , like draperies, walls, landscapes or what ever...


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jan-2014/189689-3d.JPG

AllisonR
01-03-2014, 01:37 PM
Nathalie Happy New Year to you as well. I am glad you are drawing and painting again. Your freehand drawing is looking good.

I am glad you like my colors so far, it encourages me to continue. When I have the time - I just moved shop this week, so no painting. Luckily I did tons of painting at Christmas.

ah - now I see what you mean about the ear - his is sideways, not correct perspective. I did not notice before. Jesus's eyes look ok to me, what is hard is the upward perspective on St. Sebastians eyes and nose, nearly impossible for me to understand.

I am sorry to hear you will work on chip board - I hope it will last. I am stopping with rabbit skin glue and going to synthetic version, I heard that it is actually the rabbit skin glue that contracts and expands with moisture, and therefore making a lot of the cracks in oil paintings.

What does this mean - "the Imprimatura was applied in a head"?

I made a mistake of making my drawing in dark brown lines - I think burnt umber - now they still show through my paint. Next time I will use maybe raw umber with white, to make clear but more subtle lines.

Dan, your drawings are always so elegant and beautiful. Not overworked, not underworked, just right. I hope you sell your drawings, they are a treasure. I guess your tempura - this is one of your new medium experiments? Will you paint the whole composition, or do you not have the time?

I do not think that I'll use grisaille or dead layer - not all the paintings in the world was made in this method ;).

I think the color of underpainting will be not a pure Burnt Umber....
...
In the book of Cennino Cennini , he recommends to use a green color ( verdaccio ) in the shade areas of the face and body, before to apply a flesh tones.

Nathalie - what I found very interesting is I did not make an underpainting - I went from straight burnt umber (plus white) wash over golden imprimatura to color. I made the flesh with NO terre verde or other green tone - I did not use any green hints in flesh, I did hair and flesh I think in Burnt umber plus warm lead tin yellow (OH Cad yellow Lt) and lead white for paler flesh. No black. But, very interesting, on top of the burnt umber wash the flesh looks like it has a greenish tint. It looks like I used a bit of terre verde, but I did not. I think this might be part of Raphaels magic - simple colors, only 2 really (umber and yellow) yet looks more complex, looks like more.

Interesting you used raw umber, this yellow, when mixed with your black, gives a green tint. And your alizarin to counter that. Yes, I think it is good you did not go to dark. Raphael does not have very heavy darks; at least not in flesh, even the darks are only medium value. If I look at his younger work, seems much lighter overall, later he uses more darks in other areas. Regarding the background, I also think there was a vertical line there, though I did not add it, at least not yet. I took the photos in photoshop and blew the heck out of them in curves, to see any hidden details. I saw folds in her dress and background elements.

Do you know what that thing is under her sleeve? Is it part of the sleeve, or a purse, or what? I painted it on the right as if it was the stripped pattern in her green dress, but I see you have made it more an extension of the object on left, a purse?

ianos dan
01-04-2014, 04:27 AM
Looking good so far Nathalie ,you have captured the essence of Rennaisance underpainting;maybe too much details for a Rafael ,but it helps a lot in the upper layers;l like the golden hue,if you use this underpainting wisely ,you could obtain a great copy .
The background really don't matters ,because the composition is designed to be circular ,so .the darkness around helps a lot.l would make the background first ,because you can judge the flesh color and all the elements better .l saw only darkness around ,no architectural details .
Nice!the form is beautiful rendered :)

ianos dan
01-04-2014, 04:51 AM
Thanks Allison ,l would be glad to sell some of them ,l have tons of them ,but you never know ....the benefit is that l've learn a lot,still have ....
About that small experiment-this is just a small study ,l was very curious about how the paint will behave in this medium ,no intend to to a full copy ,l would say ,from this experiment ,that Rafael could have been use this medium for underpainting ,but not in excess (you saw that crosshatching in some of this darker areas),because you cannot blend ,it helps because it dries very very quickly .
But you can paint with tempera only ,it's a great and interesting medium ,and ,once varnished ,it looks like a oil painting :)

Nathalie Chavieve
01-04-2014, 07:44 AM
I am sorry to hear you will work on chip board - I hope it will last. I am stopping with rabbit skin glue and going to synthetic version, I heard that it is actually the rabbit skin glue that contracts and expands with moisture, and therefore making a lot of the cracks in oil paintings.

What does this mean - "the Imprimatura was applied in a head"?


I also think there was a vertical line there, though I did not add it, at least not yet. I took the photos in photoshop and blew the heck out of them in curves, to see any hidden details. I saw folds in her dress and background elements.

Do you know what that thing is under her sleeve? Is it part of the sleeve, or a purse, or what? I painted it on the right as if it was the stripped pattern in her green dress, but I see you have made it more an extension of the object on left, a purse?


Allison : Thank you, Allison !

You don't have to be sorry about my chipboard :). It is nice support to paint on - very smooth, only it is heavy and needs lot of priming - I have said that I applied 8-9 coats, but I was mistaken : I looked today in my notes, and it was 11 coats of gesso ( it was home made and applied in very thin layers ).

Some time ago I prepared a several chipboard and plywood panels, one of them I wanted to use for "Madonna Benois" and when I made Imprimatura mixture - I made it too much, so I primed with this mixture a few more panels. So, when I started to work on "Madonna della Sedia", Imprimatura was already applied to the panel, and I transfered the drawing on already dried Imprimatura.


I found some picture of engraving and print ( or copy ) ,in black and white, there is possible to see some more details.

Sorry, Allison, I did not understand your last question about the Madonna's sleeve ? Can you explain more or show it ?


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jan-2014/189689-abb_1.jpg



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jan-2014/189689-abb_3.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
01-04-2014, 08:09 AM
Ianos Dan :

Looking good so far Nathalie ,you have captured the essence of Rennaisance underpainting;maybe too much details for a Rafael ,but it helps a lot in the upper layers;l like the golden hue,if you use this underpainting wisely ,you could obtain a great copy .
The background really don't matters ,because the composition is designed to be circular ,so .the darkness around helps a lot.l would make the background first ,because you can judge the flesh color and all the elements better .l saw only darkness around ,no architectural details .
Nice!the form is beautiful rendered :)


Thank you, Ianos Dan , I do appreciate it. Of course, I tried to draw as much details as possible, because I am not a Raphael ;)( unfortunately :crying:) and it is a copy, so I wanted to be as close as I can to the original. And, as you said, it will help me alot in the next steps.

I shall disagree with you about the background : ok, it is only a copy, but for me to make a copy it is not only a mechanical immitation of colors and technique. I want to understand the lines, forms, color, ideas, symbols and composition, which plays very important role in the Renaissance paintings ( you know that ). Also, I believe, that if there is some details on the background - it must have a purpose, because Renaissance painting was created to deliver a certain message and painters was usually fill the painting with symbols and allegories, which we don't know how to read nowadays. For instance, the wall which divides Christ and St.John.

When I look at this painting and copies of it , I see very dark almost black background and it looks very flat and give the feeling that all three figures hanged in the air. I do not believe that Raphael, who was a master of his craft, can create such empty atmosphere in the background. I also found such hidden background on the Leonardo's painting of "Madonna benois" - behind of her back there is a niche with drapery, but not a black hole which we see now on the original painting.

ianos dan
01-04-2014, 10:09 AM
Hmmm...could be a small column?

0chre
01-04-2014, 01:30 PM
Hmmm...could be a small column?I think you're right. And there could be another one just left of Mary. There also seems to be smoke and a leave (?) behind the right child, but these could just be artefacts of the fiddling with the picture... See the "enhanced" picture below.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jan-2014/211143-raphael3.jpg

ianos dan
01-04-2014, 06:46 PM
To me ,it looks like a column,otherwise ,l don't see the meaning of a dark crevasse ,if he intended to make a niche or something ,it would have a different form .
And one more thing:could anyone tell me why that golden nimbus or halo from the Virgin's head (or above),it's not complete?l have doubts on the integrity of the painting.Probably small piece is missing .

AllisonR
01-05-2014, 05:17 PM
Hi folks, I've washed out the painting. The background looks like a wall, perhaps darker where jesus is due to open hall or door entrance, filled with dark shadow.

Her halo is there, it is the wrong shape though - if you connect the two arches and try to make a proper oval it does not work. The teal circle I made is what I was asking about. To me it looks like a continuation of the border pattern in her top, on your drawing it looks like a continuation of the purse thing . or whatever that object/fabric is hanging down from her arm.

Very interesting the engravings, all the details in the fabric. I think a bit of this might have been in the original, but some of it is made up, the engravings are based on the original but not actual copies - I see tons of differences.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jan-2014/133314-Raphael_madonna_della_sedia__extreme_lught.jpg

ianos dan
01-06-2014, 03:13 PM
Yes Allison ,that is 100% the pattern ,coming out from the back of her arm.l didn't saw the halo mistake ,because l was so fascinated by her face ,but you're right ,it's not a perfect ellipse .
Here's an unfinished copy ,done when l was still a student,after Perugino. l didn;t knew about dead layer ,l just painted with local colors ,over an underpainting ,made with burnt umber in flesh areas,and simply local color on the draperies and clothing. You can see the underpainting on the baby's hand ,and parts of his feet ,also on the Virgin's hands.
l mean ,all the painting is an underpainting ,excepting the faces and the body of the baby .
l've just found it ,and l thought it will help you .http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2014/1165823-IMG00130-20140106-1309.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2014/1165823-IMG00131-20140106-1309.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2014/1165823-IMG00132-20140106-1309.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2014/1165823-IMG00133-20140106-1309.jpg

ianos dan
01-06-2014, 03:18 PM
Here's the egg tempera experiment . l used a thin coat of light color ,to give a kind of unity ,but it's very difficult with this medium .Still have to learn a lot .
The lovely thing is that it has no smell . http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2014/1165823-IMG00127-20140106-1308.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
01-06-2014, 05:10 PM
Agree with Ianos Dan - it is a pattern of her shawl......

I have read that the halo of the Virgin is unfinished, that's why it looks like that.


Nice studies, Ianos Dan : even without dead layer or verdaccio they looks nice.

You know, I also have tried tempera lately . I have a few tubes of tempera and I decided to give it a try. I made a drawing : a head of a girl with kind of Renaissance hair style and transfered to small panel. Well, I followed the Cennino Cennini and Koo Schadler instruction. Applying tempera paints sooooo much different technique than oil . Ok, I didn't use the oil in the medium, only egg yolk and water. The tempera dries under the brush and so many color layers need to apply ! It needs a lot of patience and skill.... But it really very nice medium and gives very beautiful colors.

I have a question for you, Ianos Dan : is tempera behaves slightly different if the linseed oil added to the egg yolk ? Does it dries less quickly ?

AllisonR
01-08-2014, 04:42 AM
Hi folks. I still don't understand - which line is it a continuation of - the top border pattern in her sleeve, or the bottom border of her shawl or purse or whatever that is?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jan-2014/133314-Raphael_which.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
01-09-2014, 10:22 AM
This is a continuation of the pattern of her shawl ( green pointer ). The thing which you call "a purse" in my opinion is a back of the chair.

ianos dan
01-09-2014, 12:47 PM
Nathalie,l made some experiments ,and ,what i found ,is that it need a big amount of oil,relative to egg ,to paint somehow between the two techniques,so ,l will go simply with pure egg tempera ,because to me ,it didn't work to good .
Try different quantities ,and see what happens ,but for me ,is only water and egg.
Over you can apply oils!
Yes very different indeed ,very linear ,no blending .The experienced tempera painters ,use s kind of glaze (i tried myself,and it worked) ,that is spread over a dried surface ,you have to work very fast. Koo gives there a hint ,just read what she wrote on that thread.
You will like it ,l'm sure .
here's one of the video l wanted to show you :that's the icon painting technique,but it helps to see how the paint is manipulated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqXJrxxNixw
and;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oCEQJb4C7s

ianos dan
01-09-2014, 12:48 PM
It dries very quickly ,but you cannot blend :).for underpaintings ,and line drawing ,it's simply great .

Nathalie Chavieve
01-09-2014, 03:05 PM
Thank you, Ianos Dan, for the videos. In my small tempera painting I was followed more the second video ( russian ikon technique ). I made verdaccio, but , because I do not have skills in this technique, it came out very heavy and uneven. Here is the result of many-many color layers I have made over this verdaccio ( it still not finished yet - I hope I will some day:) ).

Hopefully , Allison, will forgive us this little conversation about tempera technique here !:cat:


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2014/189689-_DSC0055.JPG

ianos dan
01-12-2014, 05:19 AM
Actually ,it looks very good ,it has something from Piero della Francesca ,even Filippo Lippi ,definitely some early 15th century look .
I don't see uneven areas ,except the one are left fro munderpainting ,but very nice job on the face an hair ,you should continue work on this one .
Sorry Allison !
Nathalie ,you could create a new thread ,with your experiments and with egg tempera .

AllisonR
01-13-2014, 03:47 AM
Actually ,it looks very good ,it has something from Piero della Francesca ,even Filippo Lippi ,definitely some early 15th century look .
I don't see uneven areas ,except the one are left fro munderpainting ,but very nice job on the face an hair ,you should continue work on this one .
Sorry Allison !
Nathalie ,you could create a new thread ,with your experiments and with egg tempera .

No problems with the interruptions, it is all very useful. And yes, please make a tempera tempera/oil thread for all of your experiments Nathalie and Dan - it is very interesting, and perhaps I will come back to it later. Maybe others will also find it useful. For me I am still learning oils, so it is too overwhelming for me to do tempera at this point. Perhaps if I had spent the last 30 years not with acrylics but with oils instead - then I would definitely be trying out all your recipes and experiments.

AllisonR
01-22-2014, 02:26 PM
I have worked on my copy. I did all the flesh again - the purpose was to add lead white to the highlights, more defined shadows, and "apples" to the red areas. I think I was successful with the highlights and shadows, but forgot the "apples" when I left her cheek. Ok, I will do in next layer.

I also did her hair turban, which is basically the same flesh colors, and the hair on all three figures, and the dark background - cooler on left, warmer over St. Sebastian. My hair looks cheesy compared to the original, I hope I can fix in the next layers but I am not sure how. I also have tried to work on softer edges - by pulling foreground edge into background and background edge into foreground, and nearly each time I do it I think the results are good, much better than the hard edges I normally produce - but, but, but... I have some sort of freudian complex against this. My brain, or psyche, tries to pull me against making soft blended edges every time, and I do not know why or how to stop it! Argh!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jan-2014/133314-DSC_0009Raphael2ndlayerworking.jpg
Please crit (and offer therapy for my edge problem!).

How are the rest of you doing? Please post pics and updates!

Nathalie Chavieve
01-25-2014, 05:30 AM
Nice job, Allison ! I see you started to blend colors more carefully and now you have done more soft passages than it was in "La Belle..". You didn't mentioned if you worked on the clothes also, but I like those vibrant colors very much.
My main critique is about the color of the flesh tone and it thickness : in my opinion you went with the flesh tone too yellowish and too heavy - if you look to the picture of the original painting you have posted in the first page, you'll see that there is not so much of yellow tone, especially in the shadows, like Virgin's neck and under chin . In some places it is bluish and very subtle. I also think, you have applied the color quite heavily ( especially in the shadows ) and covered entirely the whole underpainting and Imprimatura. Take a look at Ianos Dan post about how Raphael was using Imprimatura and underpainting, and how he was using very thin color layers. You have to understand, that multi-layering technique does not mean that you have to apply many many color layers all over the entire painting: in some parts you have to leave an Imprimatura and underpainting almost untouched and use very little colors and only transparent and translucent glazes to creat optical greys and shadows. Van Eyck, for instance, was creating the shadows in the underpainting, and then applying some glazes over it, but not heavy and not many layers.

Nathalie Chavieve
01-25-2014, 05:43 AM
I don't know if there is a therapy against your complex of sharp edges ...:confused:
I think you have just to convince yourself in the necessity of soft edges and all the time remember it. And, of course , practicing. Also, the sharpeness of the edges must vary : in the shadows they are more blurred and subtle, in the light areas - more sharp, and etc.

AllisonR
01-27-2014, 01:46 PM
Nice job, Allison ! I see you started to blend colors more carefully and now you have done more soft passages than it was in "La Belle..". You didn't mentioned if you worked on the clothes also, but I like those vibrant colors very much.
My main critique is about the color of the flesh tone and it thickness : in my opinion you went with the flesh tone too yellowish and too heavy - if you look to the picture of the original painting you have posted in the first page, you'll see that there is not so much of yellow tone, especially in the shadows, like Virgin's neck and under chin . In some places it is bluish and very subtle. I also think, you have applied the color quite heavily ( especially in the shadows ) and covered entirely the whole underpainting and Imprimatura. Take a look at Ianos Dan post about how Raphael was using Imprimatura and underpainting, and how he was using very thin color layers. You have to understand, that multi-layering technique does not mean that you have to apply many many color layers all over the entire painting: in some parts you have to leave an Imprimatura and underpainting almost untouched and use very little colors and only transparent and translucent glazes to creat optical greys and shadows. Van Eyck, for instance, was creating the shadows in the underpainting, and then applying some glazes over it, but not heavy and not many layers.

Nathalie, thank you so much for your thorough crits. I will try to address each point. But before I do, I hope you post pictures soon. I love how subtle your underpainting "wash" is - such gentle gradations. I will be interested to see how you build up color.

Blended colors - unfortunately it is only a blurry photo. My edges are better, softer, but not enough. I know what you mean about some edges soft, some very soft, some sharp and crisp.

Yes, as you mention, flesh tones are too thick, also clothes. But this is because of my big mistake of using raw or burnt umber drawing - way too dark line and I have to cover it up, which means thicker paint and not so many glazing, lake colors. The yellowish tint I think is from the photo, not reality. I will add more subtle color blends, like cool blues and greens in shadows, and reds in hands… but this will be in later layers. Right now I had to cover the ugly drawing lines. I painted the flesh, and all the rest - fabric… Now that everything is covered, I will work on some glazes. And details - like the red stripes in the shirt… In a week - must dry.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Jan-2014/133314-DSC_0009Raphael2ndlayer.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
01-29-2014, 03:14 PM
Allison : I didn't work on my copy yet, because I wanted to work on my own paintings which I want to finish. Hopefully I can do on the weekend........


About blending : for me, blending the colors on panel or canvas takes lot of time, sometimes more time then applying the colors. Usually I apply colors with small brush , and then begining to blend with bigger dry fluffy brush, sometimes with my fingers.....I do enjoy blending and make very smooth transitions of colors . I think your main problem with blending (Of course,it is only my thoughts and I can be mistaken) is that you have been working with acrylics before you switched to oils and as you know handling the acrylic paint is very different than oils because it dries very fast and you have no time to blend it very well. Oils are different and can stay wet for a few days and you can take your time to blend it well. Of course,it is only my thoughts and I can be mistaken.

It is also good to know, for instance, that dark oil colors like blacks, browns getting tacky and drying faster then whites and bright colors. So if you applied a dark color it is better to blend it first ( if nessesary ) and then blend lighter tones.

AllisonR
01-30-2014, 04:44 PM
Ah yes, perhaps you are right about the blending - I never could in acrylics, except very fast. But I only have a day, max 2, after that the paint is too tacky to blend more - even though I am not using anything except paint and linseed. I am working on it. Partly by using bigger brushes than I want to, that have split ends, so they blend very softly. At least that is what I tried in this third flesh layer. It is softer. The photos are bad though - the camera is making everything sharper and not so smooth gradations as in the actual painting.

My puzzlement is over St. Sebastian. Do you see how sunburnt he looks? I mixed all the flesh - which was burnt umber, a little english red, a little yellow ochre and then lead white for the lighter shades. So he is a little darker than the other two figures, which just means I used the darker shades for him. So the only difference is less lead white. Yet he looks not just darker, but much more red. I can't imagine lead white (which is warm already) making flesh so much cooler?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2014/133314-DSC_0018Raphael_3rd_color_layer_flesh_and_fabric_details.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jan-2014/133314-DSC_0018Raphael_3rd_color_layer_flesh_and_fabric_details_detail.jpg

My new plan is to finish the major fabric details - the stripes on her green shirt. Then some scumbles and glazes over the fabrics. Cooling St. Sebastians skin. Then at the end details - more flesh scumbles and glazes and all the details - gold bracelet….

Nathalie Chavieve
02-03-2014, 01:42 PM
Allison , your copy looks good : nice blending and soft edges. The color of the clothes are very beautiful.

I still think that the flesh tone is to yellowish and warm as the most of the clothes - you have no cold ( coolish ) shadows at all in your painting , but it is only my opinion.

Nathalie Chavieve
02-03-2014, 01:43 PM
I was working on my copy over the last weekend : I spent two days. Here is the result : flesh tone made with Lead white, Raw umber and very little Burnt sienna. Madonna's green shawl : Terre verte ( Earth green), Ultramarin, Lead white and in the dark shadows with Carbon black and Burnt sienna. Red sleeve: Vermilion, Lead white. Blue gown: Prussian blue and lead white.
Background was made with mixture of Carbon black, Burnt umber and Permanent Madder deep.
Child's yellow dress: Cadmium yellow deep, Raw umber and Red ochre.

I took the picture during the day time and it came up very bright, especially in the blue gown. I try to take better picture some other day.

Comments and critiques are most welcome .



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Feb-2014/189689-4c.JPG

AllisonR
02-04-2014, 03:02 PM
Nathalie - fine to see your progress. You have made very light, airy flesh. I think this will can be used to your advantage in you next layers. I think Mary's and Jesus's faces are fine, but St. Sebastian looks odd - his nose is at the wrong angle compared to the rest of his features and his lips are maybe too far to the right? St. Sebastians hands you have made lovely,they were very difficult for me. The clothing folds you have made in the blue dress and yellow and red cloth are all very well done, they look graceful, However I think the folds in the green shirt do not look as good as the rest, they look more wrinkled instead of gentle, full folds of fabric. What will you do with the bottom - right now she looks like she is sitting on air - it is because that info is not in the circluar original - so I think you need to paint a seat for the chair.

Nathalie Chavieve
02-05-2014, 04:21 AM
Thank you, Allison, for comments and critique.

The third child is not St.Sebastian as you mentioned but St.John the Baptist.

Yes, I'll need to work more on St. John - his nose looks like the nose of Miss Piggy...:lol:. You know , he was painted last and I just was tired and lost my patience - that's why he looks odd, as you said.
It was a first color layer and there is going to be more, so I do not worry about the green shawl - it is just a base color which I applied in very thin, almost watercolor like, washes.

I am planning to do a round frame for this painting like in the original. Of course, I'll not cut it, but to make some kind of passepartout with frame.

AllisonR
02-09-2014, 02:04 PM
Ok, St. John. I obviously don't know my biblical figures.
I know what you mean about getting tired at the end, I also find it hard to stop and then I get sloppy and make more mistakes. I have worked again on my copy - I have scumbled over the flesh again, and finished the details in the green shirt. The red is not so neon as in the photo.

In fact all my photos are bad - but after much reading I have found out that for low contrast images (like paintings) my camera increases the contrast - which is why my skin tones look all stepped and hard in the photos. So now I am testing the manual settings and I hope I can post better pictures soon.

I feel I am mostly done. Some details left - like highlights in the eyes… and all the gold details. And I have to figure out how to put the halos in.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Feb-2014/133314-DSC_0018Raphael_4th_color_layer_and_fabric_patterns_and_glazes.jpg

BrushBeater
02-09-2014, 08:47 PM
Excellent, its very inspiring.

ianos dan
02-14-2014, 03:51 AM
Allison ,beautiful pattern on the Virgin's Clothing .
The flesh is nice blended,you could use more light pinkish hues on some light areas,it's true that the painting has this colors ,but ,as you know ,he preferred the pale skin for the female and boys figures.
You see how the red ,and all colors are almost burning the eye ,such intensity ,is exactly how this great painters wanted to look their images,not mute dull color ,that was for another period (remember what a huge scandal caused the restoration of the Sistine Chapel?because all of the guys who thought the painting has to be like a burnt umber,earthy colored,,didn't saw ,for a minute,Tondo Doni.. LOL. ) :)).This is the advantage of working on a very light toned canvas or wood.
You will have to hide those "hard" edges of the hair ,the original has more delicate and curved hair ,only some strokes ,not mass of color .
Great job !her face is looking beautiful . Your technique improved a lot !

ianos dan
02-14-2014, 03:59 AM
Nathalie ,nice and interesting underpainting!l like the fact that you are not using dead coloring ,and l know that is a good experiment for you .
This is the way how l would have made a Rafael copy ,for this stage .
l also like how the green folds ,are turning into some dark earth color ,which is great ,as a balance of color ,and richness of tone.

Some problems of proportion and little distortions are here ,but l know you will correct them ,as you are going with the upper layers :)
Nice underpainting !

AllisonR
02-14-2014, 04:52 PM
Ianos - thank you for your kind comments. I will look at adding some pinks. My "secret" is very fuzzy, soft, split end brushes. I have tried to paint no lines, no areas, but softness everywhere because the brushes make me, and then building up the soft layers to make the masses and shapes.

The cloth - I painted it all green, then added the patterns. The "black" lines is actually my green shirt color plus the red sleeve colors mixed together. Then I painted the blue hints. Then the red as a solid fat stripe, and then I put the gold on top while the red was still a bit wet and then the red x's back in. I used a small sharp flat edged brush to add the gold in, not painting the shape in, but using the width of the brush as if it was painting a wide fabric stitch. I mean each gold diamond shape is actually three or four stacked stitches on each edge.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Feb-2014/133314-Raphael_Border.jpg

AllisonR
02-15-2014, 04:45 AM
PS - I have issues with the red sleeve. It comes right across the center and I think overpowers the scene. I tried making it more dull with yellows, was a nice orange but too overpowering, then I tried to dull again to add some blue to the red but instead it now looks hot pink and still overpowering. Yet I am afraid to really dull it, because then it will look funny next to the brighter blues, yellows, greens. So I hope gold accents will compete with some of the boldness to make it not stand out so much. Also some may be my camera going crazy with reds.

Nathalie Chavieve
02-15-2014, 08:42 AM
Nice work, Allison ! You have done beautifully the Virgin's clothes and her shawl with carefully painted patterns , looks stunning !

I still think that the flesh tone is too yellow. I also do not like the hair of the Christ and St.John - they looks like a hedgehog ( sorry about it ).
I see your problem with the red sleeve and I think it came from the overuse of pure red color and also lack of contrast shadows. The sleeve looks like it has been painted only with 2-3 hue of the same color, while , if you take a careful look on the original, you'll find that there is more hues , chroma and different colors. Also, the narrower part of the sleeve ( which closer to the hand ) is very flat - there no even one single folds and it looks unnatural . When I was "investigating" the original painting to make a preparatory drawing, I found that there is some folds which are hardly visible now.

One more comment : I think you have the problem with the warm flesh tone and warm flesh shadows - the same like in your painting of "men with rope", as the same with the whole painting - everything in your painting is has warm tone and its make the painting completely flat.

Nathalie Chavieve
02-15-2014, 08:50 AM
Allison , If I may, I would like to give you an advance, - do not make rush decisions and do not be in hurry when you paint your own painting or a copy and do not think that if you will make a mistake in the painting , you'll fix it in the next step - it is wrong approach , in my opinion. You have to take your time and to think, observe and plan your steps in advance ( not everything, of course, but the main steps, colors, create a color pallete, plan you system in which you'll apply colors, think what effect it will give ). Now you having a problem with a sleeve and you try to apply different colors but you have to think what will happen when the painting will completely dry - what color the sleeve will have after applying all color hues you want to apply now? Remember, even you can fix mistakes in the oil painting, but when the paint will start to dry and become more thin , all corrections may become visible and overuse of different colors and hues can cause to a big mess and distraction of the color.

Nathalie Chavieve
02-15-2014, 10:33 AM
Nathalie ,nice and interesting underpainting!l like the fact that you are not using dead coloring ,and l know that is a good experiment for you .
This is the way how l would have made a Rafael copy ,for this stage .
l also like how the green folds ,are turning into some dark earth color ,which is great ,as a balance of color ,and richness of tone.

Some problems of proportion and little distortions are here ,but l know you will correct them ,as you are going with the upper layers :)
Nice underpainting !



Thank you, Ianos Dan, for comments and critique.

Please, do not think that I have been using the dead layer in all of my paintings :cat:- in many of them I never used a dead layer . I made a few paintings using a dead layer to experiment and to see how it works.

Yes, I saw this earth color in the shadows of the Virgin shawl and I think it works wonderfull.

AllisonR
02-15-2014, 04:49 PM
Nathalie - thank you for all your thoughtful crits; I am very happy to hear your view.

The red sleeve - I had too much contrast - too much dark versus light areas before, and I have toned it down, which I think is closer to the original.

I will look at their hedgehog hair. Also the flesh, I agree I am using the same tones, and then it is looking flat. I think that I have already some red tones, but I need to study the original more and add more other hues - more yellow flesh and more blue flesh and even some green flesh, and then that will make the red flesh actually look like red flesh. I totally agree with you - all my flesh is warm, also shadows, and it is a problem I am trying to fix. It is like my softness problem, I have issues with putting more daring blue, purple and green in flesh. With this painting I have learned to be softer. Perhaps on this or my next painting I will also learn to improve my flesh.

It is also a very good point you have about taking care, because the oil paint will become more translucent and then the poor color decisions of previous layers will show through.

AllisonR
02-18-2014, 04:56 PM
Hi, I touched up the "hedgehog hair" - still stripy, but more subtle I hope. I didn't do much to the red sleeve - I could not find the folds you were talking about. I did study the flesh a lot more, and found some blues and some greens, and some more pronounced yellows and reds - so I have added a lot to the skin - for example blues and greens on jaw and neck… I then added gold accents. I found out the gold things on top of Jesus's hair is his halo. He has a smaller, but more intense halo than the other two. If you look closely, you will find that the lines all follow a ring pattern. I took the photo in the evening, so the colors are a bit wacky, but I find that almost all of my photos have a yellow color cast. I really need to oil out to bring the colors up.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/133314-DSC_0020Raphael_colored_flesh_and_gold.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/133314-DSC_0020Raphael_Detail_face.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Feb-2014/133314-DSC_0020Raphael_Detail_gold.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
02-23-2014, 04:39 AM
Yes, Allison, now the skin tone and the whole painting looks more alive ! Much much better than in previous layer. As you said, the picture is, probably, too dark and too yellow. May be you can take a better picture to see more of the colors ?

You have made very beatifully the fringe and the embroidery on the back of the shawl - very detailed work !

I think you have made her blushing cheek too much intense and too obvious - like a make up.
Also you made a highlights in her eyes in such way that now she looks like she is thinking or dreaming of something, while in the original she is looking straight to the viewer.

AllisonR
02-23-2014, 06:26 AM
Yes, Allison, now the skin tone and the whole painting looks more alive ! Much much better than in previous layer. As you said, the picture is, probably, too dark and too yellow. May be you can take a better picture to see more of the colors ?

Yes, my camera often has a color cast, either red or yellow. Once I oil out I will try to get some better photos, with proper camera lights or more daylight. As you know, also quite dark here a lot of the day.

You have made very beatifully the fringe and the embroidery on the back of the shawl - very detailed work !

Thank you, but I do not think so beautiful. Yes, it is more "free" strokes because I was not trying to copy like a robot, I was trying to make the general pattern and follow the general flow, which is I think wise. However I should have taken more care, more time. If I had studied more before painting the gold, I would have seen how "wispy" his fringe is, and how much gold is actually missing in the darks.

I think you have made her blushing cheek too much intense and too obvious - like a make up.

Yes, I did! It is like 2014 blush. Perhaps it was a mistake to do this, but I thought, I am making a copy, but I want to make it obvious this is a copy from our times.

Also you made a highlights in her eyes in such way that now she looks like she is thinking or dreaming of something, while in the original she is looking straight to the viewer.

This is a brilliant observation. Thanks. I will look at and see if I can fix it.


I'll come back to it in a week or two.

AllisonR
03-11-2014, 09:33 AM
Final touch ups, oiled out to see if any sunken values needed help. I am done. I have taken better photos with professional lights. (before oiling out, though the change is subtle, my medium was not overly glossy.) I still find too many problems with glare…. but I am reading that photography PDF mentioned in Nathalies photography thread - very helpful, and I think I will be able to take better photos in the future.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Mar-2014/133314-RaphaelFinishedProfPhot.jpg

Nathalie Chavieve
03-16-2014, 06:07 AM
Well done, Allison :clap:! I see the colors are much brighter in this picture ( the last photo was very dark ). I see now the pinkish tone of the flesh and other subtle nuances. Very beautiful. I think you succeeded alot with this copy.

Would be very interesting to see it with frame ! ( I hope you are not going to put it under the glass !!!?:confused:)


P.S. You work so fast, Allison ! I am hardly started my copy, and you are already finished ! What a pace.....:cool::)

XRaffaele87X
07-30-2014, 06:50 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Jul-2014/1093692-P_20140723_224111.jpg Work in progress....someone can ask me what think? Can ask me what parte of paint think is completea??? Thx