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pcj
10-01-2013, 12:14 AM
October 2013 Oil Painting Project
John Singer Sargent 1856-1925 – Capturing the light.

Hello Everyone,

To me, the most entrancing thing about Sargent’s paintings is his ability to portray light. Sometimes, it’s a subtle shimmer or flash , sometimes the whole painting glows , in a few, the light almost sings !

Like many others, I would love to have this ability. So, for this month’s project, I’d like to focus specifically on painting the ‘light’

In the next 3 posts, I’ve uploaded 18 of Sargent’s paintings to choose from. They are of various subjects, both finished paintings and some studies but they all have one thing in common – there is something special about the lighting.

If there is another of Sargent’s paintings that you would rather do, please feel free.

Please post all during the month– from doodles, scratchings, study drawings to WIPs and general comments – it’s all interesting !

I invite you to join me in ‘chasing the light’. We might even capture it !
Cheers,
Patricia

Some links to Sargent’s paintings and biography:

The Athenaeum website:
http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/list.php?s=tu&m=a&aid=368&p=1

Tate Gallery
http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artists/john-singer-sargent-475

johnsingersargent.org
http://www.johnsingersargent.org/home-1-96-1-0.html

Wikipaintings.org
http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/john-singer-sargent

pcj
10-01-2013, 12:32 AM
Here are the first 6 of the 18 Sargent paintings to choose from.

Click on the link provided with each one for a larger image.


El Jaleo 1880-1882, 93.31” x 138.58”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=8150
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_eljaleolarge3Y.jpg


La Carmencita 1890, 54.02” x 35”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=23387
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_LaCarmencitalarge.jpg



A Vele Gonfie [also known as Ena Wertheimer] 1904, 64.25” x 42.52”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=23314
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_AVeleGonfielarge.jpg



Mrs Charles Deering 1877, 22” x 17”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=13363

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_mrscharlesdeeringlarge.jpg



A Jersey Calf 1893, 29.88” x 25.24”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=52748
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_ajerseycalf.jpg



The Derelict 1876-1877, 13.27” x 20”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=53058
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_thederelictL.jpg

pcj
10-01-2013, 12:49 AM
....and here's the next 6 paintings to choose from.
Click on the link provided with each one for a larger image.



Madame Errazuriz 1 1880-1882, 20.98” x 19.05”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=23208
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_madameerrazuri1large.jpg



In The Orchard 1886, dimensions unknown, Oil on canvas
Link: http://uploads4.wikipaintings.org/images/john-singer-sargent/in-the-orchard.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_in_the_orchard-large2.jpg



Spanish Dancer 1880-1881, 87.76” x 59.45”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=8140
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_spanishdancerlarge.jpg



Reconnoitering 1911, 22” x 28”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=13605
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_reconnoiteringlarge.jpg



Gondolier 1905, 28” x 22”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=99262
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_gondolier-large2.jpg



Seascape 1876-1877, 11” x 8.25”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=17616
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_seascape.jpg

NancyMP
10-01-2013, 01:01 AM
:clap: Patricia, you've picked one of my very favorite artists of all time!:D And he's not easy to render. I did a challenge on Sargent for the portraiture forum not too long ago and this is one I picked to do, which is absolutely not as easy as it looks ... unless you're JSS himself!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/203830-nude_egyptian_girl-large.jpg

I tried, but I just couldn't manage all that gorgeous tonality he put into this!

I saw both his plein-air version and his finished version of the Oyster Gatherers at The Boston Museum of Fine Art many years ago, and practically couldn't pull myself away, so I'm going to try the Oyster Gatherers of Cancale first! (And you can watch me pull out my hair as I try to get the beauty of his work yet again!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/203830-oyster_gatherers_of_cancale-large.jpg

pcj
10-01-2013, 01:05 AM
..and the final 6 of the 18 paintings to choose from.
Link provided with each one for larger image.



William Merritt Chase 1902, 62.52” x 41.38”. Oil on canvas
Link : http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=23291
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_WilliamMerrittChaselarge.jpg



A Study Of Architecture, Florence 1910, 28” x 35”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=13613
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_astudyofarchitectureFlorence.jpg



Pointy 1880, 9.33” x 8.5”, Oil on panel
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=52854
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_Pointylarge.jpg



Whitby Fishing Boats 1884, 18.5” x 25.98” Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=52586
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_WhitbyFishingBoats.jpg



August Rodin 1884, 28.5” x 20.63”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=23232
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_AugustRodinlarge.jpg



Study For The Spanish Dance 1879 – 1880, 19” x 15.25”, Oil on canvas
Link: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=13562
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_studyforthespanishdancelarge.jpg

pcj
10-01-2013, 01:22 AM
:clap: Patricia, you've picked one of my very favorite artists of all time!:D And he's not easy to render. I did a challenge on Sargent for the portraiture forum not too long ago and this is one I picked to do, which is absolutely not as easy as it looks ... unless you're JSS himself!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/203830-nude_egyptian_girl-large.jpg

I tried, but I just couldn't manage all that gorgeous tonality he put into this!

I saw both his plein-air version and his finished version of the Oyster Gatherers at The Boston Museum of Fine Art many years ago, and practically couldn't pull myself away, so I'm going to try the Oyster Gatherers of Cancale first! (And you can watch me pull out my hair as I try to get the beauty of his work yet again!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/203830-oyster_gatherers_of_cancale-large.jpg


Hi Nancy,

I really like the Oyster Gatherers, I was going to include it and some
of the studies he did for it but since I already had 18, I thought I'd better
stop there - he did so many paintings that I like, I could have uploaded 50 !!:)

Patricia

NancyMP
10-01-2013, 01:45 AM
I know... I could have spent three days at least at that Boston show, just stunned by all the beauty this man's exquisite brushwork turned out!:D

And I'm going to paint several of those you've posted! What fun we'll have this month!:wave:

adamrice
10-01-2013, 02:05 AM
i'm a sucker for a pretty face, i'll try mrs. charles. made a quick sketch, i'll post tomorrow

lovin art
10-01-2013, 07:21 AM
Pat these are wonderful ...... I love this man ... Will certainly try to do some practice from him ...thankyou for your hard work and great links ....lovely as

Toril
10-01-2013, 12:11 PM
Very tempted by Madame Errazuriz and the Seascape. Both would provide so much fantastic learning, I can tell.

Thank you for posting this challenge!

Michaelshane
10-01-2013, 01:13 PM
Sargent is my favorite,oyster gatherers is one of my favorites.Ill paint it if I have time.

pcj
10-01-2013, 02:23 PM
Hi Nancy, Adam, Sandra, Toril, Michael and Everyone,
thanks for replies, I hope you can all join in, it should be
very interesting and a lot of fun.

That must have been a wonderful show in Boston, Nancy,
I would have loved to have seen it.

I'm thinking of doing 'A Vele Gonfie [Ena Wertheimer]' first
- have done a quick charcoal sketch, will post it in a few minutes.
I was looking for a better image with more detail and found this
at the Tate Gallery
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_T07104_10aavelegonfie.jpg

It gives much more detail but I think I like the other image I posted better.
The Tate also gives the story behind the painting - as a joke,
Ena put on the the Court Dress of Lord Londonderry which had
been left in Sargent's studio !:D I love the fun of this as much
as the lighting !

Patricia

pcj
10-01-2013, 02:30 PM
Here's a very quick charcoal doodle of 'A Vele Gonfie"
Cheers,
Patricia
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_IMG_0138.JPG

lovin art
10-01-2013, 03:55 PM
Lovely and soft there Pat ....what have you worked that on it looks like canson to me ... He sure did paint amazing work and I feel the thing with Sargent was he knew how to capture the viewer ...that's not an easy thing to do and you know it in an artist when you see it ....

I won't add old stuff Iv already done of his , ill do somthing new ...

pcj
10-01-2013, 04:10 PM
....what have you worked that on it looks like canson to me ... .

Yes it is Canson ! ...you have a good eye :) !!!....it's Canson Pastel paper 9" X 12"

lovin art
10-01-2013, 04:33 PM
Thanks Pat .... I just know it well and how the charcoal etc reacts on it ... I've drawn on it loads at school when I've done studies of the human from life ...

I love what you drew ...I'm sure this will be a great thread , I have a very special book of his K gave me:heart: ....but I don't think there's to many artists that don't know of his skill .... I was truly amazed at the sheer size of his work standing in front of his stuff is both joyous and intimidating at the same time ...so wonderful and mesmerising to look and observe his process , he says a lot on canvas but it's effortless in his approach ..a dab here a dab there ...a profound controlled looseness to him

adamrice
10-01-2013, 08:30 PM
after looking at last nights sketch i decided to do another....not much better. :(
perhaps i will try her again, or maybe a different one...:rolleyes:

Toril
10-01-2013, 10:09 PM
Adam, you did better than I did with my attempt to sketch Madam Errazuriz. She looks scarily like a Halloween Zombie. :eek:

lovin art
10-01-2013, 11:34 PM
after looking at last nights sketch i decided to do another....not much better. :(
perhaps i will try her again, or maybe a different one...:rolleyes:


Dont Fret ....Here this mite help slightly , I dunno but I saw your post and I wanted to help ...it helps to look at just the basic envelope of the head , and by basic I mean very plain straight lines not really thinking about lines as curved shapes in space as they appear to us ...but also thinking about the head as one solid mass object ...kind of like taking the head and placing a box around it then relating each mass shape to another .... trust me Adam this takes alot of work to realize and its hard and frustration , I know Ive been there ...but trust me also when i say you can do this :) ... and when things start to click it shows ....and you will know , I can tell by the way you have drawn this i can see how you have tried to approach the head ....no detail or shading and jumping in till that line work is totally pushed as close as to what your trying to say , says whats there ....:)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/186639-47666-tn_madameerrazuri1large.jpg

adamrice
10-01-2013, 11:48 PM
thanks sandra...mwah! (blowing kisses noise) i think i'll give her another go, what have i got to lose? ;)

toril - lets see her...i post my failures too! :evil:

lovin art
10-01-2013, 11:57 PM
thanks sandra...mwah! (blowing kisses noise) i think i'll give her another go, what have i got to lose? ;)



Your most Welcome ! Nothing to lose and everything to Gain my friend !


.i post my failures too! :evil:

....realizing failure is the true success to growth as a draftsmen:thumbsup:

pcj
10-02-2013, 02:22 AM
..... i think i'll give her another go, what have i got to lose? ;)



Hi Adam,

Thanks for posting your sketch. I think 'Mrs Charles Deering' is one
of the most difficult ones to draw because of the angle. I find
that angle hard to draw, particularly the nose - you did a good job on
the nose !
Yes, have another go !
As Sandra says - there is everything to gain !

Cheers,
Patricia

ArtyRolina
10-02-2013, 10:09 AM
A doodle ::sobs::

That is lovely, Patricia!

Here's a very quick charcoal doodle of 'A Vele Gonfie"
Cheers,
Patricia
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/47666-tn_IMG_0138.JPG

ArtyRolina
10-02-2013, 10:21 AM
I can see massive leaps in your drawing, Adam - keep on doing them, it is paying off!

after looking at last nights sketch i decided to do another....not much better. :(
perhaps i will try her again, or maybe a different one...:rolleyes:

adamrice
10-02-2013, 12:23 PM
thanks for the encouragement everyone, much appreciated :thumbsup:

i had another go, better again, but man this girl is tough. it goes from looking like a boy to looking like a young girl (like an 8 yr. old) in 2 simple passed of the pencil. :confused:
this might be sufficient for a study, however - i'm more interested in the colors and the intense brushwork than a perfect likeness

Toril
10-02-2013, 12:59 PM
I think it's a good sketch, Adam, in itself - and that's the fun and frustrating and interesting part of drawing and painting, getting it to look like what's in your head or in front of you. :thumbsup: Take mental note of those two pencil strokes, you can use that later.

lovin art
10-02-2013, 01:43 PM
Adam .... What you have here is a feel for the likness. I like that .thats really wonderful !!! ..i also think what's the point of being more concerned about colors and brushwork at this point before correcting what's clearly not happen in your work ...I know this may sound harsh , but it's not meant in that fashion ... It's coming from a good place , I don't feel the meat and bones of anything if the structure is not in place , and I know where your coming from about color etc ... I use to think of nothing but that ... And it wasn't till I started to learn how to draw properly that I could understand all that ....I hope you don't take any of this as anything but goodness and faith in your ablitliy ...I think if you take another look the width of the face is to wide verses the length ,eyes to far apart the nose is much more extended in the original , for the angle which is a 3/4 view of the face , The zygoma forms the lateral wall and margin of the orbit and along this region comes in slightly and then sits pretty much vertical, which you have , but the head width then distorts this on your drawing ...it's not possible for the bone structure to be anything but ! ...... It mite help if you take a look at your verticals and horizontals , thinking on terms of plains ...loomis is very good for this kind of thing ...these are just suggestions ...

Ps also wanted to add I do happen to love those eyes !!! :)

adamrice
10-02-2013, 02:32 PM
wow sandra that's a lot of info - thank you so much! you're a great tutor.
i will have to re-read what you said this evening when i have time
and you are of course right again...no sense proceeding to canvas until i'm satisfied with the form...which i'm not.
but this girl is difficult for me, maybe i'll try one of the others after all...

Amai
10-02-2013, 08:35 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Oct-2013/186639-47666-tn_madameerrazuri1large.jpg
I did a quick conte study of this one last night, and looking at the overlaid lines on this made me think about how I blocked mine in. I'm not sure if it helps, or if it really only made sense to me, but I overlaid my basic plan pattern in paint (high tech all the way) and figured I'd add my two cents.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Oct-2013/1343970-blue_pink_yellow.jpg

The blues go first. Then I did the pinks (the jacket line up, the top of the face) The yellow, which isn't really necessary, but helped me make sure I had things about where they should be.

The next refinement I did to this really blocky shape is looking for the negative shapes. Triangles mostly, but a few weird ones.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Oct-2013/1343970-negative_space.jpg

Then I just started with light and dark and roughly worked my way in. Nothing new or inventive, I'll grant you, but a fairly quick, fairly accurate (give or take my own technical aptitude :)) method I've come to love.

If I were to approach Mrs Deering, I think the angle line (would be a pink) of the bottom half of her face and the collar as it continues past the white, and the edge line (would be a blue) of the right side of her head and the back of her shirt/dress as it turns away would create a cut off triangle shape that would help solidify the width of her head, and be fairly easy to check, reference to drawing. But we all have our own ways of doing things, which I think is half the fun, and all the 'art' :)

Edgah
10-03-2013, 12:40 AM
Thanks for hosting Patricia! This will be a fun month.

Nancy, I love the Oysters pic, there's a high resolution version of the other one on the Google Art Project. The website's great because you can zoom in so far which makes it great for copies.

http://www.google.com/culturalinstitute/asset-viewer/fishing-for-oysters-at-cancale/tQGQzYOvCGTTVg?projectId=art-project

I decided to start off my studies with a crop from this version, I think I will leave it at this to keep it fresh, it looks decent from a distance.

http://i.imgur.com/2Wf7t0Z.jpg

I will attempt one of the landscapes next.

lovin art
10-03-2013, 01:18 AM
Nice fresh work there Edgar ....

Edgah
10-03-2013, 04:21 AM
Thanks Alex, I just ran out of white paint. So happy right now.

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 07:27 AM
Edgah, beautiful work! And thanks for the hi-rez link; I had been using the larger ARC one, which still isn't all that terrif. I also have the book I bought at the museum, so I now have three refs for the oyster gatherers!

Amai
10-03-2013, 09:46 AM
Edgah you certainly caught the challenge of the month with that. The light is beautifully captured.

That is also a great link. I love how you can really see what's going on with his brushwork, and how some of the smaller details are so simply made.

pcj
10-03-2013, 12:29 PM
Good Morning Everyone :wave:

Edgah, lovely work ! and thanks for that link, I hadn't seen it.

Sandra, I really appreciate you posting your helpful advice - I was
hoping you would :)

Amai , interesting post - yes, everyone has something different
from everyone else in the way they go about doing a
painting - I tend to do a gesture drawing first, then the angles
and proportions of the underlying bony structure - this may
come from doing clay sculpture.

Nancy, do you think you might do the Oyster Gatherers or one of
the studies he did for it ? I hope your toe feels better today.

Adam, are you going to continue with Mrs Charles Deering ?

Hi Rolina,

Hi Toril.

Cheers,
Patricia

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 01:16 PM
Patricia, I thought I would start with Madame Errazuriz and work on the Oyster Gatherers later.

Here's a quick sketch of her just to get the shapes in place, and now I'm breaking out the paint.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Oct-2013/203830-Madame_Errazuriz_sketch.jpg

pcj
10-03-2013, 01:43 PM
That's lovely Nancy, you've captured the mood already. What did you use
to draw with, what surface is that and what size ? Sorry for so many
questions !
Patricia

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 03:02 PM
No prob with queries, Patricia! It's Blick's premier Belgian Linen board oil primed, size 11"x 14" and I make my sketches with General pastel chalk in burnt sienna. It wipes off easily with just a tissue or a finger, so it's very artist friendly.

Here's the painting; Madame Errazuriz.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Oct-2013/203830-Madame_Errazuraz_after_Sargent.jpg

Paint is Gamblin Asphaltum, Gamblin Radiant Yellow, Rembrandt Transparent Brown Oxide, Vasari Capucine Red Light, Gamblin Perylene Red, Gamblin Yellow Oxide, Daler-Rowney Georgian Buff Titanium, WN Titanium White, and just a touch of Sennelier Cobalt Blue.

Michaelshane
10-03-2013, 03:06 PM
Beautiful....

Toril
10-03-2013, 03:19 PM
No prob with queries, Patricia! It's Blick's premier Belgian Linen board oil primed, size 11"x 14" and I make my sketches with General pastel chalk in burnt sienna. It wipes off easily with just a tissue or a finger, so it's very artist friendly.

Here's the painting; Madame Errazuriz.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Oct-2013/203830-Madame_Errazuraz_after_Sargent.jpg

Paint is Gamblin Asphaltum, Gamblin Radiant Yellow, Rembrandt Transparent Brown Oxide, Vasari Capucine Red Light, Gamblin Perylene Red, Gamblin Yellow Oxide, Daler-Rowney Georgian Buff Titanium, WN Titanium White, and just a touch of Sennelier Cobalt Blue.

This is how you paint when you are in pain and sleep-deprived??? :lol:

:clap: Had to import the one I need: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Oct-2013/1029272-not_worthy.gif



I'm off to symbolically break all my brushes and flush my paints down the toilet. :clear:

adamrice
10-03-2013, 03:37 PM
nancy - you are just off the chain, girlfren. way to channel life's challenges! such a nice job, and so fast...how long did it take, anyway?

toril...slow down, if i can keep it up so can you! :)

thanks for the feedback and info amai and pat...yes i will continue with the mrs. just cause i heard that voice that said "you can't do this" so of course that mustn't go unanswered...i also did a sketch of the sea w/fishing boats, forgot the name, hopefully can post pics later

toodles! noodles! oodles of doodles!

edgah i almost forgot...you are very talented, seems like you effortlessly capture the correct mood and lighting...impressive!

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 03:43 PM
Thank you, Michael; I just signed it with my name, and AFTER SARGENT...

Thanks, Toril, I'm not in as much pain today. The sour cherry juice you recommended is very effective against gout! The throbbing toe woke me up at 5 ayem, and I promptly went and drank some

...and that had better be symbolic, you've got a lot of painting to get done, gal!

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 03:50 PM
Adam, thank you. I needed to paint today, since I had just hauled a bunch of paintings to the gallery yesterday. I think it took a little more than an hour, and it gave me a notion for my portrait demo next month -- I'm going to bring a friend, or a husband, if he's awake, so I will have a familiar face to paint while answering questions.

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 04:03 PM
This is how you paint when you are in pain and sleep-deprived??? :lol:

:clap: Had to import the one I need: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Oct-2013/1029272-not_worthy.gif
Awk!:eek: I just noticed this little guy!
Toril,:heart: stop all that putting yourself down...it only takes a lifetime of painting and you have plenty of years left! And you're already doing very well with your NSP!
I'm off to symbolically break all my brushes and flush my paints down the toilet. :clear:

lovin art
10-03-2013, 05:32 PM
Patricia, I thought I would start with Madame Errazuriz and work on the Oyster Gatherers later.

Here's a quick sketch of her just to get the shapes in place, and now I'm breaking out the paint.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Oct-2013/203830-Madame_Errazuriz_sketch.jpg



Nance , my lady of the house :D ... I love the Painting , really beautiful nice and quick and not to flashy ... But I really have to say , this to me is one of the most beautiful block ins and this was the one I was picking to do and why I highlighted her for Adam as an example ... And you've done a most beautiful job translating the drawing here ....I'm very impressed lady :clap: :heart:


And Patricia ... :wave: Thankyou for such great thoughts of me , i do appreciate reading that .....I really hope I wasn't stepping on your toes or anyone's , I have the anatomy knowledge so anything you need to know ask away .... :heart:

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 05:52 PM
Thank you, Sandra!:heart: I can't travel, and I can't afford to go to an atelier, but I read a lot, and pay a lot of attention to what is suggested to me, like the straight line method, which I've seen done on many art videos. I do envy you your anatomy training, especially from the flayed models you've drawn from so often. I have some anatomy books for self-training, and that's about it.:wave: :D :heart:

lovin art
10-03-2013, 06:44 PM
Nance ..:heart: totally understand what your saying ! .. Nothing to envy here , and I've been lucky yes , and I don't take it for granted ( well I try not to ) and I certainly don't know as much as I feel I could .:( .. I'm constantly thinking about my learning in terms of my growth , and Sharing of course what it is I've learnt ...and I'm always thinking about Who I want to learn with and just how far I can push this mind and Hand to be more artistic than it is ... I'm relentless in that regard , but I'm also quite selfish for being like that , that much is clear and I often feel dreadful and guilty inside , like this feeling of overwhelming sadness inside when I think about it , a lot of the time ...so you see there's nothing in me to envy ....!! :)

I'm always boning up ( no pun intended ):D on my anatomy books etc

mtpalms
10-03-2013, 06:47 PM
Oh Sandra! never feel guilty for your blessings, I feel blessed because you have so much to share with the rest of us! And one day I'll be able to say, "I knew her when...," :angel:

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 06:57 PM
I'm always boning up ( no pun intended ):D on my anatomy books etc
:lol: :lol: :lol: You can't tell me no pun intended, funny girl!

Seriously, Sandra,:heart: that is a very good form of being selfish :clap: -- because of you, other artists will learn that they shouldn't feel guilt for putting their art first. Look at it this way: If you are not good to yourself, there is no way you can ever be good to others! Hugs and smooches to you from here!

adamrice
10-03-2013, 07:18 PM
ok, i just had to check and make sure i was in the right thread...:D

so tell me ladies and gents, what you think of these latest sketches...i still feel like her cranium is too wide, but only after i looked at the pic...sometimes i question the integrity of my camera/monitor relationship!:rolleyes:

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 07:39 PM
Adam, it looks like you shot that at an angle instead of straight on; which makes her cranium is too skinny and face too long... but that is a beautifully shaped nose you've done there. The seascape is looking great!

pcj
10-03-2013, 08:11 PM
Here's the painting; Madame Errazuriz.

.

That's just stunning Nancy !!

NancyMP
10-03-2013, 08:21 PM
Thank you, Patricia! It's given me the feel for how he handled his brushes, so it was a good exercise for me before starting the Oyster Gatherers!

Amai
10-03-2013, 08:28 PM
so tell me ladies and gents, what you think of these latest sketches...

Each of these gets a little better, especially with the effect of the turning side. I think they were well worth the time to do before heading into paint. One thing that you might check, is the angle of her eyebrows. It seems to be that you've leveled it out just a bit, which changes the cant of her head.

Edgah
10-03-2013, 10:24 PM
Nancy, thank you! I wish I had a big Sargent book to pull out for reference every day, I saw beautiful ones in London but lacked the money at the time.

Amaj, thanks for your kind words!

Patricia thank you!

Adam thanks for your kind words. I've worked really hard to get here, talent is nothing without hard work. I see you've had a burst of inspiration in the past few weeks, and that's great. It's important to practice every day.

Regarding your drawings, I think you will have trouble on the canvas with your tonal relationships. For the portrait, I think you should integrate the background with the head, as this is how Sargent would've realised the final edges. Practice the drawings with a thick stick of charcoal, losing and regaining the head over and over until you find the edge. There's only one 'right' edge in a copy, and not even Leonardo found them straight away in his drawings.

Here's a link that'll help you, I find this article is inexhaustible.

http://keenewilson.com/page/2947/john-singer-sargents-painting-techniques

Toril
10-03-2013, 10:59 PM
Edgah, thanks for the link, that's a great article! :thumbsup:

adamrice
10-04-2013, 12:30 AM
really great article! i barely understand most of it - lots of "artist speak" :) but i am very intrigued by the blocking in values method...something i've tried as i understand it to no avail.
would any of you awesome artists care to make a several step demo of how that process looks? if it's not too much to ask...
and i really appreciate all the great feedback and support here, i just can't say that often enough, really thanks so much everyone

NancyMP
10-04-2013, 12:57 AM
Edgah, what an informative article; my book didn't have nearly as much information! And it reminded me that the Oyster Gathers I want to use for a reference is not the plein air sketch he did, but the finished one, which he called by exactly the same name!

I just downloaded this one from the Art Renewal Museum, which is where I download my references. I love the Google one you posted, because you can enlarge it at will, but I couldn't find the finished painting, only the oil sketch.(?)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2013/203830-the_oyster_gatherers_of_cancale-large_2.jpg

It's very much warmer than the first sketch, with more detailing. They had them hanging next to each other in Boston, so it was easy to see the difference between them.

lovin art
10-04-2013, 03:33 AM
iTS sure One Amazing Painting above but then so was most of his stuff ....

Good Practice there Adam ....I think you might need to retake your shot maybe ...it does look to be on a angle :)



Started this , its taken from one of his figure drawings in charcoal .....Thinking Anatomically here , well trying to ....:)

this is in carbon on newsprint ....I started off and did a very crude drawing of the head to get a feel for the placement and alighment of the body the centre balance if you like ...as the original drawing doesnt show the actual head ....Im posting the start and result as it might be of some help maybe ...maybe not ...

soory bout the shot charcoal doesnt seem to photo on iphone to well :rolleyes:




http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2013/186639-099.JPG


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2013/186639-121.JPG

adamrice
10-04-2013, 10:18 AM
beautiful sandicat, and thanks for showing the stages, that really is quite helpful.
well this one is making my head hurt. this is about 7 sketches in, and i've tried variations on every approach mentioned here and more. i guess just more years of practice...:crossfingers:

so i won't be trying her again, the little voice wins (for now) and i have to make sure i still have fun or it really isn't worth it. so next stop: canvas. not sure which painting yet, i'll decide this evening, but i just need to push on and continue to try and correct mistakes and learn as i go...

hugs to all, keep the feedback coming, i am listening intently and studying everything you say, trying to integrate it all...

NancyMP
10-04-2013, 02:44 PM
Sandra, lovely work!

Adam, that is an excellent drawing, and I noticed that you even have the crocheted hat indicated!

pcj
10-04-2013, 02:53 PM
Hello Everyone, :wave:

Edgah, that was a great article - Sargent certainly was persistant
and painstaking wasn't he !

Adam, each of your drawings show improvement , you must be
getting a bit tired of Mrs Charles by now [ I certainly would be !]
I think it's a good idea to go to paint now - You're right - have to keep the fun and excitement alive !

Sandra, Beautiful drawing ! I love both carbon and charcoal but
find charcoal easier to use - what surface did you use ?

Patricia

pcj
10-04-2013, 03:19 PM
I've started the drawing on canvas for A Vele Gonfie.
Just a minimal drawing this time to indicate position etc.
[I usually put too much detail ]. This way it will be easier
to make corrections as I go along. [ it already has numerous
errors ! ]
The canvas is Fredrix Ultra Smooth Portrait grade.
Size 16 " x 20" which is the wrong aspect ratio so
I drew pencil lines down each side to reduce the width
to make the ratio the same as the original.

Patricia

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2013/47666-tn_IMG_0213.JPG

lovin art
10-04-2013, 03:34 PM
Adam .... When they make your head hurt .... That means your learning , I'm very proud of what you have drawn and achieved , you listened to the little voice I planted in your head ..... That's what k did for me ...and ill always be very greatful to him for it

Oh yes your right it takes years and years of practice , I'm into my forth year of solid drawing .....most master drafts people / artists , would draw typically for at least 7 to ten sometimes 15 years straight ...before advancing to color ... But I know that sounds like a kill joy , and get the part like pat said about keeping the fun into it ...but I tend to be to anal about art , which is sappy really ...but thankyou Adam and Nance and Pat for the lovely thoughts ..... Pat , I wrote down its newsprint , I tend to like the carbon more then charcoal , but I also intergrade them both in so e of my work like the bg of that study is mostly charcoal ....will try do some more was looking at .....thankyou Pat for letting me inflict my sad drawing on you ....:D cheers you all rock , can't wait to see what else you all do ...and hopefully more artist mite like to join in !!!!

....Lurkers must post encouragement comments at least ... !!!!:wink2:

lovin art
10-04-2013, 03:42 PM
Pat that's such a beautiful painting to copy .... And I mean just look at how he indicated the material on her hat .... Lovely big crisp strokes used there and slight value changes ...:D

pcj
10-04-2013, 07:32 PM
..most master drafts people / artists , would draw typically for at least 7 to ten sometimes 15 years straight ...before advancing to color ... But I know that sounds like a kill joy , and get the part like pat said about keeping the fun into it ...but I tend to be to anal about art , which is sappy really .........thankyou Pat for letting me inflict my sad drawing on you
:


That doesn't sound like a killjoy Sandra !! That's what produced the
great masters !
I totally agree with you about drawing. Also agree with you about anatomy,
- one of my 'pet' opinions is that a knowledge of anatomy [bones,muscles and associated 'bony landmarks' etc ] is essential to figure drawing.

....and your drawing is certainly not 'sad', it's a beautiful drawing !

Cheers,
Patricia

adamrice
10-05-2013, 02:50 AM
patricia - i was getting a little sick of mrs charles, but i am obsessive compulsive when it comes to some things...so i did put her to canvas :rolleyes:

i tried to think about that article while painting, losing and finding edges, rubbing out parts that didn't sit right, draw the head not the features, etc...but my natural tendency is to go straight for detail and that is a hard habit to break.
i transferred a thin outline from my drawing but quickly lost it doing umber washes, which is good - it forced me to really look at the original. after getting close using just raw umber, i started in with some white, making corrections and adjusting values. ended up with more detail than intended :o
i think i got the right side of her mouth too low, and i really needed to do more value contrast, but the day has a limited number of hours. there are bound to be other drawing errors - please point them out, i'm having a hard time seeing objectively at the moment
i'm thinking tomorrow go back in with white, raw umber and black (a la sandra's viola!) and paint much thicker...this layer is quite thin

purplepansey
10-05-2013, 09:24 AM
Here's my version of Rosina I did awhile back. It's difficult to pick a favorite of his paintings but this was one if mine.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2013/52562-Rosina,_my_version_of_a_JSS_001.jpg

Here's the link to his painting http://www.johnsingersargent.org/Rosina.html

pcj
10-05-2013, 10:48 AM
Hello Everyone,

Adam, Lovely, you captured her expression !
Re: the mouth, I think the left side [her left] needs to be lowered rather
than raising the right side - see how lines drawn between the eyes,
the eyebrows and the mouth are all parallel to eachother.
Also I think the base of the ear is a little too low.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2013/47666-mrscharlesdeeringeditl.jpg

Purplepansy: Very nice !

Patricia

lovin art
10-05-2013, 02:51 PM
Yes great start there Adam :D ...it's often hard to describe what we know we see , but that's our visual eye , seeing and perceiving , but our hand skill is often not as quick as our eye when starting out ....I'm also going to agree with Pat ....she's pretty much said what I'd say .... Angles and tilts and verticals and horizontals all need to be looked at when we approach the head as does basic measurement , I would say you don't have enough length in the head the eyes are the halfway point of the head , the ear will sit inline with the base of the nose , I think you could look at the plains of the head more too ...sorry I feel like I'm on overload here , and I don't want you to feel overwhelmed ...but there just things I'm seeing ...please discard if no help ...:) Adam it's a hard head but your doing really well to push ...impressive stuff :thumbsup:

Thanks Pat ...how's your work coming along ... Can't wait to see it !! :D

adamrice
10-05-2013, 04:41 PM
thanks for the help ladies, when you say it it becomes obvious, but when i'm enmeshed i start to lose the overview...
just to clarify: the forehead needs to be higher, is that what you mean sandra? and the ear also, tilt the mouth...as well as her left eye, i think. i'll have another go here soon
pat - really nice sketching, i too am looking forward to more
edgar - you still with us?
purple - very nice, will you be doing more?
nancy - thank you, looking forward to your next one as well

Amai
10-05-2013, 04:59 PM
...inflict my sad drawing on you ...
....Lurkers must post encouragement comments at least ... !!!!:wink2:
That comment certainly made me have to get off my comfy little lurking stool. I looked at your drawing when it first came up, and didn't say anything, mostly because anything I would have said right off would have sounded bitterly envious. The softness of handling and the light you caught in it is stunning, and well worthy of a Sargent copy (a high bar indeed). It is really a gorgeous piece, and I hope there is truth to to your site name, and that you love art, not just in general or in practice, but your own, because that drawing in certainly art worthy of being adored.

(Sorry if that got weird and admonishing towards the end, it started encouragingly in my brain, and the words got clunky :o)

TinaC
10-05-2013, 05:10 PM
OK, here is my encouragement. This is a great thread and there is some excellent work being done here already. Personally I think there is no better way to raise those skill levels in big steps that to do master studies. Sargent is an eternal favourite but I do like the slant you have put on it with the lighting theme Pat. If I get the chance I will join in but I have paintings I need to do backing up on me right now.

Keep up the good work everyone!

lovin art
10-05-2013, 05:12 PM
Hia Adam ... Yes sort of :) ... I'm saying you need to have more length in the head , it's not just a matter of adding to the cranium ....the features sit a relative halfway point on the face , if you take a basic pencil and hold that up and measure the the length make a fair guess at the top and then the bottom and within that we have a refence point to start from then take that measurement and find the halfway point .... The top of ear sits within the frame of the bottom eyelids to the base of the nasal spine ...... Look forward to seeing your work !!

lovin art
10-05-2013, 05:46 PM
That comment certainly made me have to get off my comfy little lurking stool. I looked at your drawing when it first came up, and didn't say anything, mostly because anything I would have said right off would have sounded bitterly envious. The softness of handling and the light you caught in it is stunning, and well worthy of a Sargent copy (a high bar indeed). It is really a gorgeous piece, and I hope there is truth to to your site name, and that you love art, not just in general or in practice, but your own, because that drawing in certainly art worthy of being adored.

(Sorry if that got weird and admonishing towards the end, it started encouragingly in my brain, and the words got clunky :o)

Amai .... My gosh !:o . I posted that just hoping more Lurkers would get in and have a go that's all ... :D Completely No bad feelings here Hun , I am very overwhelmed to read all that:o , and I am very much about my love of art not that I think I need to explain that ...it is how I feel ...it sounds cliche but I have been relentless in my art studies and like I said I still have so far to go ( do we ever really stop learning - no :) ) ...but I do it for many reasons , mostly I have been artistic all my life and I love being an artist and love art from others and I AMA. Sharing girl ..always have been ... I could never go back to a normal life , of working in a ful time job , I'm a full time artist , I've studied with incredible artists ...and I am happy to share my learning but more so I'm not to big to think I know it all , cause I don't ,and if I did then I certainly wouldn't be open to learning from others like I have ... I'm constantly amazed at just how much there is to learn and yes I do set the bar pretty high , for myself at least , but I think that's what comes from advancement in artistry in general .... Honestly your so dam lovely to of said all that about me , and I'am humbled so much by your great thoughts here. And now it's time to go bury my head , wishing you Great drawing....back to the real artist here .... Sargent !! :thumbsup:

Tiny ... Look forward to your work ...pleaseeee do ...:crossfingers:

Edgah
10-05-2013, 09:02 PM
Adam, yes still here. I've had a busy weekend. I saw your efforts last night but didn't get a chance to chime in.

I'm posting the progress shots of my copy. Notice the first thing I do is sketch things in their right places, then the background tone which is DARKER than the final one, which is important because as you may know it's easier to lighten a colour than darken it (if you're painting wet in wet).

My main concern of this study was getting the tones as right as possible, forgetting about the placement of the features (you can see I was already guilty of sketching in an eye on the left figure, which soon disappears).

Sargent talked about the 'sharpest self control' regarding the brush in hand and the 'least slapping around of purposeless paint', although he was known to have tonnes of paint on his palette, this was probably because he would paint the same picture 10 - 15 times from scratch before he got it right.

I'll get into it more a bit later, I nitpicked at that article for a long time and used it as a guide WHILST painting, almost like he was over my shoulder telling me to fog the painting together and start again, which I advocate myself if the painting is unsatisfactory.

http://i.imgur.com/zqj57Xh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/v7yW6ZY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KWZXPBV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JcJT824.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UaWJmmG.jpg

adamrice
10-05-2013, 11:03 PM
That is really amazing, edgar. and thanks so much for posting the stages! that's all just one sitting, right, wet on wet? over a burnt sienna imprimatura or whatever they call it..is that correct? is that acrylic or oil? is it dry before you start? so many questions....i love the bold brushwork and thick paint, the deep purple...mmm....i thought i was painting my current layer thick, but not compared to that!

i also thought about the techniques in that article while working on this layer, but not to such great effect! :o but i tried to use full strokes and let them lie, not going back and dabbing around. i used two large round brushes - #10 and #12 one for darks one for lights. i went back and forth with the shapes, values, edges, trying to constantly redefine them, stepping back after almost every stroke to compare to the original and see what's wrong before approaching the canvas with a fully loaded brush.

i lost the likeness often...regained it seldom! :lol:
the canvas is pretty wet now, but maybe tomorrow i'll venture into color land :eek: just for kicks! :thumbsup:

adamrice
10-05-2013, 11:04 PM
oh yeah, my progress?.....:

lovin art
10-06-2013, 02:02 AM
Edgar .... Really nice to see your wip shots ... It's always good to see how we all approach these things .....really love the feel of yours ...


Adam .... Your doing really well here ... Don't worry about likness at this stage . It's just not possible when starting out , and often it's hard to think in those terms of things because it just frustrates us more when things don't go as they should .... And btw I love your sig line they are often thoughts in my head floating around .... In fact I think I've used that as a title on here once ...a :D

Edgah
10-06-2013, 09:01 AM
Thanks Alex, I'm looking forward to seeing more of your progress!

Adam, two sittings actually. All done in oil. I prime multiple surfaces at once so I'm never waiting for paint to dry when I want to make a study.

One of the techniques not emphasised as much as bold brushwork is the blending, and it is obvious that he did, but he kept it to a bare minimum. Sargent found a perfect balance between bold and subdued strokes. Once I get everything in it's right place, and the hues/values/chroma are satisfactory, I like to soften the brushwork just enough, blending one colour into another ONLY ONCE if required. It's not the same as blending with a layered painting where you can go to town with the nylon/sable brush.

Your copy looks good, but if you want it to be better, rub it out and start again! It's risky and tough for the ego to handle but you'll find that the next time around you're already familiar with the planes of the face and you'll see improvements.

I made a portrait last year that I repainted over 20 times, it practically drove me nuts because I never achieved a likeness that satisfied me. From that, I learnt that the process is more important than the result. I found that each time I restarted the picture I was becoming more confident. I mixed the tones quicker as I became more comfortable with my palette, I found the relationships quicker, and eliminated the unnecessary fiddling that would otherwise compromise the effect I was after, which was freshness.

Your copy shows promise, and I think it's smart that you're doing a grisaille, as it can be overwhelming to decipher line, chroma and hue in one stroke.

I'll be making another WIP soon.

Amai
10-06-2013, 05:01 PM
lovin art sorry to make you :o so much. I'm glad you didn't take the comment the wrong way. I had someone tell me recently not to beat myself up so much (about my paintings) because that doesn't leave a hand free for a brush, so that sort of thing has been on my mind recently.

Those WIP are great Edgah. I loved the note The background tone which is DARKER than the final one, which is important because as you may know it's easier to lighten a colour than darken it (if you're painting wet in wet).
I did not know that. I haven't tried wet in wet colour yet (a little too much all at once for me at this stage) but I'm adding that into my note file for when I get there. Thanks! :)

i lost the likeness often...regained it seldom! I'm very familiar with this sort of painting session. :lol: I think the eyes on your painting are beautifully done. Where you lose the likeness for me is the mouth. The values in the shadow side and especially on the lower lip seem a little high to me, and that makes the mouth harder edged than I see it in Sargents.

adamrice
10-06-2013, 05:13 PM
many thanks for the feedback amai, sandra and edgar. i tried the derelict today, total flop. after some time being discouraged (never lasts long with me, i'm nothing if not tenacious) i decided what the heck, gotta get those flops outta the system once in a while.

edgar, i'll take your advice on the mrs. and blur the face before my next layer. it's true that it gets easier every time and what you said about the process being more important than the result strikes a chord with me. i just re-read your rubens thread, i didn't really notice it until almost the end of the month, but you wrote a lot of pertinent info there too...really nice of you to share

Edgah
10-07-2013, 05:53 AM
Adam, here is your copy interlaced with the original. This is a technique commonly used around here on WC. I've placed both images on photoshop, as accurately as possible in two separate layers, then reduced the opacity to 50%. I've marked a few of your inaccuracies in yellow.

The left part of the face is rather good, you could consider it your strength. However, it seems that you've placed the mouth rather low, meaning the modelling of the skull didn't receive the care and delicacy that the eyes have. I still do this! It takes alot of practice. Here's a snippet from that article...

"Details, he was convinced, would take care of themselves. He once advised a student: "Do not concentrate so much on the features. Paint the head. The features are only like spots on an apple."

http://i.imgur.com/ffrzFVf.jpg

Hope this has helped!

adamrice
10-07-2013, 12:20 PM
wow edgar that is awesome great help. i need to learn that trick - i don't have photoshop, but serif could probably pull it off. looks like i've mainly splayer her features outwards and need to tighten stuff back up. and as you point out, that will mostly take care of itself if i can model the head right.
hopefully i can work on her this evening...

so how's everyone else doing?

whatever happened to patricia? :)

pcj
10-07-2013, 01:06 PM
whatever happened to patricia? :)

Hi Adam, I'm still here ! :D
I spent most of yesterday working on 'A Vele Gonfie" -
you'd think since most of it is in shadow, it would be
relatively easy - not so ! I'm discovering just how
great a master Sargent was !
I see you tried 'The Derelict' - the one I posted was
really a sketch version and much better actually than
the larger version which was called 'Atlantic Sunset'
- The light was better in the sketch IMO.

Hi Edgah, Nice work and thanks for posting the WIPs too,
these are always very interesting.

Hi Tina, I haven't seen you since the 'Cabanel' masters
project.

Hi Lurkers !

Cheers,
Patricia

pcj
10-07-2013, 01:42 PM
.....thanks for posting the WIPs too,
these are always very interesting.

Cheers,
Patricia
Speaking of WIPs, I always find these completely fascinating !
Please post everything from doodles on up and please
give details of what you used - charcoal, graphite etc and how
you start the painting itself - whether you draw first on canvas
or go straight to paint etc.

Cheers,
Patricia

lovin art
10-07-2013, 04:50 PM
I'm in total agreement with you Pat .... He was amazing but he knew how to draw :D like we said earlier that's what made them great masters !! his painting technique to me is very much alla prima but he would apply his paint thinly and then add those key notes and accents to his work and show how with very little but a block in and well structured drawing and a refined and well placed highlight could make something pop out at you like your there in the moment , to me that's what he was really all about - key moments in his painting and it's something as a painter of allprmima and esspically when I'm out doing a plein air and painting from life , I find my own head thinking about that a lot ....:D

adamrice
10-07-2013, 11:13 PM
hey now brown cow,

i've been trying...oh, boy. :o

i think i'll retire to the sandbox and watch the adults...;)

after a miserable "derelict" and a pathetic attempt at color on mrs. charles, i started the fishing boats, or what i think the darkest values are sort of in the right general location...

i just have to remind myself that this is adam rice, the guy with no natural artistic ability who didn't even start drawing until his late 30's trying to copy john singer sargent, the guy who was doing complex detailed anatomically accurate sketches at 13, went on to study at various academies (i think) and made a career out of his artistic abilities.

yeah, i keep telling myself that, but...
i think i'll try to finish this one, call it good, and try again in 20 years :lol:

Edgah
10-08-2013, 01:03 AM
Keep painting adam, you'll get there with hard work. The great thing about the net is that all the info you need is right in front of you. The difference is the work ethic. If you can do one study in oils a day, big or small, it'll show. Remember, Van Gogh didn't start painting till his late twenties, and didn't even make it to 40!

Here's another wip, my take on 'The Derelict', completed in 1 hour, 45 minutes.

For this study I used Titanium White, Nickel Yellow, Raw Sienna, Burnt Sienna, Ultramarine Blue and Ivory Black.

http://i.imgur.com/m8U76yA.jpg

Roughly indicated the composition using raw sienna, blue and black diluted in a lean medium. 3 parts turpentine to 1 part linseed oil.

http://i.imgur.com/SxFHutN.jpg

Blocked in the masses and at this point I'm just familiarizing myself with the palette.

http://i.imgur.com/xsms1Je.jpg

Blocked in the rest of it then beat the painting lightly with a sponge. Then I begin the sky, using bold strokes.

http://i.imgur.com/7TJzZzk.jpg

Indicating the mid tones and darks now, slightly exaggerating them.

http://i.imgur.com/M0LTKcD.jpg

Beat it with a sponge again.

http://i.imgur.com/O8BBNhO.jpg

Indicate the lights then start 'painting' the picture.

http://i.imgur.com/hWZSrl7.jpg

Repeat until satisfied. I found that setting a limit of 2 hours eliminates the fiddly stage.

http://i.imgur.com/XsSXfsM.jpg

Now that I'm seeing pictures of it I see things I want to fix up. Maybe I'll allow myself a maximum of 10 brushstrokes to say the rest, then a strict 'brushes down' policy will be enforced :lol:

lovin art
10-08-2013, 07:47 AM
Very nice work there guys:thumbsup: ..... Adam it may not be a Sargent but it's not a bad Adaam Works ...

Edgar ,:D Great work, I agree , lol i don't think he painted the heck out of things , a strong desire to put a mark down and leave it and to not overwork colors is oftenwhat shows through in his work and that he had an incredible eye for color compliments ....

Looking forward to seeing more works here ...:D

Edgah
10-08-2013, 08:53 AM
I realised halfway through that he probably used a sienna ground. I didn't want to have those ugly white spots showing through when I was done. Hence why I usually work on toned grounds. It's also hard especially copying masters landscapes, who had an obvious advantage of working from life. That particular one would've been captured so quickly.

giannik
10-08-2013, 11:36 AM
Hey, this thread is a delight, many thanks to all the artists who are posting on it.:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

NancyMP
10-08-2013, 03:25 PM
I'm sitting here in the middle of empty canvas fright! I've drawn the characters in the "Oyster Gatherers" about four times. And once i begin thinking that I have the feel for them, I tighten up!

That's one of the bad things about copying masterworks. Here is this nice loose painting that I want to paint loosely, but if I do, I risk losing the charm of the original right off the bat! And if I do it tightly, it would look amateurish!!!

This may be the first time I've suffered from canvas fright since the 1960s!

lovin art
10-08-2013, 03:33 PM
Nance you can do this my love ! :D .. Stop worrying and just apply paint , that's the problem your thinking on it to much , there's no room for doubt ...just apply that paint ....


Gianni .....I'm looking forward to you joining in here ....:D

adamrice
10-08-2013, 05:11 PM
hi gianni! hope you can join us :clear:

edgar - i like the latest installment

nancy and sandra and patricia - lets see what you've got!

who else...amai, toril, anyone? :D

i have no idea how he did those colors. so i stopped trying an painted this layer with a knife, just letting it play around with colors and tonalities...it's no worse than what i did before, probably a little better :o

so i might do some more on her, but i doubt it. i'll probably just stick with charcoal sketches, plenty to learn there

pcj
10-08-2013, 05:19 PM
Hi Adam, Don't be discouraged, you have talent - it's worth
continuing !

Hi Edgah, Thanks for posting your WIPs - fascinating to look at.
Interesting use of sponge. I like your loose brushstrokes.

Hi Giannik. Nice to see you ! [ was it you who did that lovely
painting of your horse ? ]

Hi Nancy and Sandra:wave:

Well , my attempt at 'A Vele Gonfie' went wrong right from the start !

That 3/4 view is very difficult to do - I tried my usual method of
indicating on the canvas the body centre line, gesture line and brow, eye,
base of nose, ears, angle of jaw, chin etc but did not do a detailed drawing
of the features. Then I started with raw umber and turps
indicating roughly the values and leaving the canvas bare for the time being
for the lightest values.
I try not to add white at this stage , it's very hard to wipe out !

Could not capture the smile , tried dozens of times !
Tried Sargent's method of fogging out and redoing too.
I'm about to try a few dozen more times !:)
Cheers,
Patricia

lovin art
10-08-2013, 05:35 PM
He's a tough one Pat .... But there's so much to learn from him ..well studying his works I'm trying to say ...:D

At the risk losing you Adam as a fan .:D ... I'm going to say yes stick to those mono tone studies ..... jumping into color before your ready too .... complicates things to much and then you end up making nothing but mud and get what could of been a great feeling from your work , a more moderate feeling of --gees this looks nothing like i set out to make it look like ....don't feel bad Hun it's natural to want to paint in color ...I was very much like you when I first started too ....:D


Ok I'm ment to be outside painting today , if it's not to windy as yesterday was bad for it ... But if not I'll try a Sargent on for size in paint ....for sure ..!!

NancyMP
10-08-2013, 07:22 PM
Here's where I am so far. I finally got the sketches sized rightly for the canvas, and oriented where I need them. I had reworked that one on the far left so many times that I almost couldn't erase it at all. But I would rather have that happen with pastel pencil than with oil paint; I want the canvas to look fresh when I finish, as if it really was painted en plein air.

Now that I have the main objective structured, I'm going to go straight to paint for the background, so some of those sketch lines will disappear.

The General' Pastel Chalk pencil in brown and burnt sienna, and it's on
24"x 36" Oil Primed Linen stretched canvas with wrapped edges.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2013/203830-Oyster_Gatherers_sketch.jpg

Michaelshane
10-08-2013, 08:54 PM
I had the wrong angle of the head,so I wiped it off.

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh450/andycat60/AC061769-8AD9-43D4-8871-E94012738E9F-846-000000A0929757EE_zps3bfa5bbd.jpg

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh450/andycat60/99224285-075E-4B3A-948E-F5DD3BDAAFC1-10633-000010F5D157BA3E_zps6e044495.jpg

NancyMP
10-08-2013, 09:27 PM
Michael, your painting has the dynamic gesture and drama that Sargent had in his! I'm so glad you picked that up!:thumbsup:

Michaelshane
10-08-2013, 09:56 PM
Michael, your painting has the dynamic gesture and drama that Sargent had in his! I'm so glad you picked that up!:thumbsup:

I study Sargent every day,he's my favorite.I hope to just get close.

He's the great uncle of my two friends,Bea and Fitz Sargent.They are both great artists.They live here in my town.They pretty much never talk about him.I have to force them.

mtpalms
10-08-2013, 11:20 PM
Michael, that is interesting! I hope you are gleaning some tasty tidbits from them.

This thread has gotten quite lengthy, and I don't know if anyone recommended the following book here, somewhere else on WC, or I stumbled on it coincidently, but I just started reading it tonight. I am only in the early part of his life so far, but it's interesting. I have to confess that as much as I admire his painting, I haven't really studied much about the man, and I am hoping this book will also have some insight on his technique.
http://archive.org/details/johnsargent00char

lovin art
10-09-2013, 01:09 AM
Both lovely work .Miss N and mr M ... I know of someone he painted of a member of their family ... It's ment to be hanging in the met ... Or so I'm told

That's so cool Mr M , you should be grilling then ....:D

pcj
10-09-2013, 09:51 AM
That's a great drawing Nancy, what make of pastel pencil
do you use ?

Lovely work Michael and very interesting about Sargent's great niece
and nephew .

Thanks for that link Marcia ! I've just downloaded it.

Well, I've just scrapped the canvas upon which, my attempt at
'A Vele Gonfie' resided. I'll start again but do a more detailed
drawing this time. It was the smile that I had trouble with - maybe I
should try Sargent's painting of the 'Sphinx'.:)

Cheers,
Patricia

NancyMP
10-09-2013, 12:29 PM
Patricia, thank you! I use General's Pastel Chalk pencils. So sorry about "A Vele Gonfie" not working for you. It's one of those things that looks deceptively simple to do, doesn't it? I think none of Sargent's paintings is all that simple, because he made it look simple with those fresh, confident brushstrokes of his!

Mastering the Masters ain't easy!

Michaelshane
10-09-2013, 12:34 PM
I'll probably have to do this several more times to get it right.I didn't do a sketch first,just started painting.I think doing it small is not a good idea either.

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh450/andycat60/DDBD42E2-E281-4847-B418-2ABF6ADB5F0C-1029-000000B8EC6A8C67_zpsb55dae2c.jpg

Toril
10-09-2013, 02:01 PM
Michael, I love the freshness and colors you have here! :heart: The pose is also very dynamic, I think. :thumbsup:

Nancy, you have no reason to have canvas fright - look at what you did in an hour in the previous one! :thumbsup:

Adam, good for you to keeping on trucking! I don't know if I'll have any time to participate, my time is trickling away from me. I am actually considering bringing in my painting gear to work... I have more time here!

lovin art
10-09-2013, 02:13 PM
Nice work Mr M , it's so hard the smaller it gets the harder ...but I don't feel you lost out to much here .... It's nice and loose and it appeals very much to me ...I love your work !!!!

Michaelshane
10-09-2013, 02:39 PM
Thank you so much Sandra.Your too nice.

lovin art
10-09-2013, 04:28 PM
Your welcome Mike , , just being honest ! ...I'm going to pick one to do ....not sure yet what one ! There's so many good ones to study !

Dam he was prolific !!

adamrice
10-09-2013, 04:31 PM
micheal that's just incredible

Michaelshane
10-09-2013, 04:32 PM
Made a few adjustments....

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh450/andycat60/2EA15132-8D7E-442E-BD04-7F32A01BB640-10633-0000117C71CC27F4_zpsc751516e.jpg

NancyMP
10-09-2013, 08:19 PM
I can't seem to get the right Ultramarine. I have Old Holland Ultramarine Blue (PB29) which doesn't have the violet tint that I'd gotten used to in WN French Ultramarine, also PB29! I tired mixing some Dioxazine Purple into it, but it still looks unsky-like. So, unless any of you have other recommendations, I'll run down to Hobby Lobby tomorrow and get a tube of WN.

It looks too dark to me, but it's after 7pm here, so I will take another lookat it tomorrow and see if I can approximate Sargent's color a lot better; it may just need more white. I only worked on the sky today, and indicated some of the background structures on hte right, which will change tomorrow.

The Oyster Gatherers of Cancale, after Sargent, 24"x 36" on oil-primed stretched linen.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2013/203830-Oyster_Gatherers_painting_1.jpg

I'm also trying to figure out a way to increase the space I have to walk back from the easel in. That's the only way I know of to think twice and stroke once, which is how careful Sargent was with his paintings. I have too many thoughtless strokes in here.

NancyMP
10-09-2013, 08:32 PM
Since this painting is not for sale, but for me myself, I want to get it as close to his painting as possible. Maybe I could do a séance?:angel:

Winsor & Newton French Ultramarine

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2013/203830-Winsor__Newton_FrenchUltramarine-l.jpg

Old Holland Ultramarine Blue

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2013/203830-Old_Holland_Ultramarine_Blue.jpg

Michaelshane
10-09-2013, 08:34 PM
Ultramarine blue + a little cadmium red medium + a tiny bit of cad yellow lemon is his sky.

Lighten with tit white.

Michaelshane
10-09-2013, 08:40 PM
Ive decided that the reason it's hard to do a Sargent painting is because...

When we are copying his painting we are trying to copy his loose style but by doing that we can't be loose.It's easy to paint in his style but not to copy a particular painting of his.

NancyMP
10-09-2013, 08:44 PM
Thanks for the recipe, Michael! I may do that instead.

I do have cad lemon in the sky, along with a ton of Titanium White, but it's not a good idea to take a pic after the sun sets here. We're on the western edge of the central time zone, but I know you're on mountain time, so 7:00 here is an hour earlier than your 7:00!

NancyMP
10-09-2013, 08:45 PM
Ive decided that the reason it's hard to do a Sargent painting is because...

When we are copying his painting we are trying to copy his loose style but by doing that we can't be loose.It's easy to paint in his style but not to copy a particular painting of his.
Quoted for Emphasis!

mtpalms
10-09-2013, 08:51 PM
Thanks for the recipe, Michael. I have used a similar one using cobalt blue, cad red light and yellow ochre, so it probably isn't as intense.

FWIW, I was always of the understanding that french ultramarine blue had a little red in it, as opposed to ultramarine blue.

lovin art
10-09-2013, 09:16 PM
Yep I think that's right Marcia it has got some in it

I wonder if a touch of alizarin would be suitable added too

Looking like a wonderful start Nance !

Michaelshane
10-09-2013, 09:29 PM
These are the colors I mix from those three colors plus white to paint most of my paintings....

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh450/andycat60/CA92E97F-38A2-48E7-9E9F-A3B7072EAAD5-1444-000000CB96A0C0D1_zps86ad4e8f.jpg

I also use,
Veridian
Alizarin crimson
Cad orange
Ivory black
Yellow ochre

That's about it.

NancyMP
10-09-2013, 11:44 PM
Thanks, Sandra! :heart:

I also found that Old Holland has an Ultramarine Violet, so maybe that's their tribute to the warmer color of the sky at the zenith? I've gone to too many astronomy parties with Himself to believe that.

I absolutely cannot do without Cad orange, and I think I've tried everything else. That's one cad that's irreplaceable!

Michael, I have way too many paint colors, and it's from people here constantly telling me what to use! And the fact that I don't like to spend my time mixing huge batches of paint that I later have to throw out. I find that I can use the same batch two days in a row at times, but paint dries quickly here and after that, I can save it in a Buddy cup for maybe another day.

Maybe I need to get to be the kind of artist who makes careful notes of her color mixes, but that takes time away from the painting, too. I also have to leave room for the lucky accident. ;)

Now that it's a few hours drier I can put the light on it, and it's not quite as bad as I thought!:)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2013/203830-Oyster_Gatherers_painting_1a.jpg

lovin art
10-09-2013, 11:54 PM
Ooooooo this is going to be so great !!! That sky !!

NancyMP
10-10-2013, 12:00 AM
Sandra,:heart: you are such a sweetie to say that! :grouphug: I still have a few touch-ups to that sky before I start the background structures and figures. Then the fun part, our main characters! ;) :p

adamrice
10-10-2013, 12:44 AM
nancy, that looks really fantastic so far. mad skills

well i made it into the second week, but my ego can only take so much abuse :D

so this will be my last sargent attempt (thinly veiled collective sigh of relief) :rolleyes: :lol:

but i will be lurking, watching micheal and nancy killin' it :thumbsup:

adamrice
10-10-2013, 10:34 AM
oh, and edgar of course...you're killin' it too :)

pcj
10-10-2013, 12:39 PM
Hi Adam, nice work !
Patricia

NancyMP
10-10-2013, 12:54 PM
This is good painting, Adam! Don't give up; I can see your improvement developing very fast! You'll be killin' it, too!

Michaelshane
10-10-2013, 01:30 PM
This is good painting, Adam! Don't give up; I can see your improvement developing very fast! You'll be killin' it, too!

I agree.

Toril
10-10-2013, 05:18 PM
And the fact that I don't like to spend my time mixing huge batches of paint that I later have to throw out. I find that I can use the same batch two days in a row at times, but paint dries quickly here and after that, I can save it in a Buddy cup for maybe another day.

Nancy, don't you fridge or freeze your mixes? I cover my palette with cling wrap and put it in the fridge - and that gives me a good week. :thumbsup:

mtpalms
10-10-2013, 06:24 PM
I absolutely cannot do without Cad orange, and I think I've tried everything else. That's one cad that's irreplaceable!

I'm a bad girl, I have gone back to chrome orange.

Good start on the oyster gatherers!

lovin art
10-10-2013, 06:45 PM
Makes me feel good inside to know that there were Greats out there that did just what we/I am doing as we study from other artists as they inspirer us along the way .....

this is taken from one of my books from him ... apparently this is one of the many studies he attempted of one of his personal Favourites The Great Diego Velázquez:thumbsup: :clap:


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2013/186639-046.JPG

lovin art
10-10-2013, 07:08 PM
nancy, that looks really fantastic so far. mad skills

well i made it into the second week, but my ego can only take so much abuse :D

so this will be my last sargent attempt (thinly veiled collective sigh of relief) :rolleyes: :lol:

but i will be lurking, watching micheal and nancy killin' it :thumbsup:

love it :heart:

NancyMP
10-10-2013, 08:36 PM
I guess you can all tell that I'm over-eager to get to the figures, since I couldn't wait to post this. It's 7 pm and my light's gone, so I don't go any further. Excuse the brush and its shadow; it's in a jar sitting next to my easel and it got nosy. Also pardon the glare -- I'm tooooo impatient! And I need to pour some water on the back of the linen since that bar is showing through. There's still much to do with the ground and water, but I'll save that for last, and of course the reflections and shadows will go in with the figures.

I mixed Sennelier cobalt blue with a touch of Sennelier Chinese vermilion to soften the sky a bit. Gamblin radiant yellow, W&N transparent yellow, and W&N Indian yellow are the yellows I used. All with a lot of Titanium white. For the darker warm colors I used Rembrandt transparent red oxide and Gamblin Asphaltum, and for the cool darker colors I used the same mix except for adding the cobalt blue. Brushes all the way from 50 to double ought.

Toril, I'm using a larger palette than would fit inside my Masterson box. I would store it inside the freezer, but I won't use tin foil. My mother used to do that with her palettes but I could never do it, clumsy as I am, without creating an unholy mess! I do have some large Buddy cups in which I can save larger mixes that haven't been used up, though.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2013/203830-Oyster_Gatherers_painting_2.jpg

Michaelshane
10-10-2013, 09:39 PM
Nancy,that's looking great.

pcj
10-10-2013, 09:48 PM
That's really nice Nancy.
Thanks for posting colour details too .

adamrice
10-10-2013, 10:49 PM
nancy and micheal - y'all just too sweet. thanks for the encouragement, much love yo :cool: :rolleyes: :heart:

Amai
10-11-2013, 11:19 AM
Okay, this is officially off my easel now.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2013/1343970-sized_3.jpg

16x20ish, Titanium White, Yellow Ochre, Cadmium Yellow Deep, Burnt Umber, Ultramarine Blue.

Two things I didn't quite manage to learn from Sargent on this:

1. Don't starve your pallet. I have serious issues with this. Paint is expensive, and I'm cheap, but using paint is sort of essential for painting, and I've fairly seriously invested in this painting hobby of mine, so I can't quite figure out why I can't just get over it and paint. I'm hoping it will get better with time. Right now I have all these thing glazes and layers, which is not at all the way to go about copying a Sargent.

2. Letting Brushstrokes lie and not slapping the paint around. I did not do that. Everything was softened, because otherwise it would stand out because everything before had been softened.

I also tend to mix on my pallet with my knife because I liked to check my colours before applying them (although if I've checked them several times and can't quite get it, I tend to call it good enough and rush on). Between this and the other two things, getting my piece to look anything like the original is nigh on impossible, which I found slightly discouraging to discover as I worked (because I hadn't really thought about it before.) I was kinda disheartened from the point I realized unless I drastically changed what I was doing mid painting, there was no way to get the nose, where the brighter yellow and darker red-brown streaks mix optically to form the mid tone, having been laid unmixed by a single (or very few) strokes after both being picked up by the same brush.

The image isn't quite true, because when I photographed it in light, I got wierd reflections off the last worked areas, and all the colours were pale in the less lit image. I tried to compensate for that digitially, which makes this version look more brush stroked, and less smooth that it actually is, and makes my yellow look whiter. I also adjusted the colours in my reference for bizarre and complex reasons that don't really even make sense to me any more, but the one I uploaded with the lines is the colours I was aiming for.

*sigh* I'm going to have to stash this one away for awhile, because right now when I look at it it makes me cranky.

I kinda regret not stopping with the underpainting, which I was happy with in its own way, but doing that never leads to progression.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2013/1343970-sized2_2.jpg

The other thing I figured I might as well add to this, given this is a Sargent thread are my 'using the paint rather than throwing it out' sketches. This project ended with four of them, one of which I'm pretty happy with. I do them pretty much any time I paint unless I can and want to save what I have mixed.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2013/1343970-sized3_2.jpg

Now I will go back to my lurking and enjoying :wave:

pcj
10-11-2013, 01:40 PM
Hi Amai,
Thanks very much for posting this - super work !:thumbsup:
{ if I'd painted this, I wouldn't get cranky looking at it, I'd
probably have a noticeable swagger to my walk for a while instead !:) }

Like your 'using up paint sketches', especially the chap at lower right.

Cheers,
Patricia

lovin art
10-11-2013, 02:37 PM
Amai .... You have been on here telling me how wonderful I'am ....seriously' take a look in your own backyard Hun !! ... :D seriouly good work here love these highly :heart:

I get what your saying about the optical mixing ,I've been doing a lot of that on my SP I've been working on .... It's not an easy concept to wrap your head around ... Don't feel bad about the staving your paint thing ... I was very much like that ... I still do it from time to time ... I think once you make an effort to commit to art full time you start to realize you just have to have it on there regardless ....l tend to to when mixing flesh tones , mix as I go ... I use to pre mix but that's really not that helpful I will mostly look for the local tone mix that and then go from there ....and yes Sargent was more about the telling of wonderful almost dry brush technic in his work over a well thought out under painting .... As to your work , I love the painting it's not as bad as you think , I feel that your underdrawing there's slight issues with the tilt of her head which is still there in the finished work , I feel the face may be a smidgen bit wider then his ... and she looks abit smirky (if that's a word I could use a better word I would :o ) but in the finished painted work you did him proud and me ....love it:D :thumbsup:

Ohhh and no lurking allowed :wink2:


Michael ...some of your images are missing :confused:

adamrice
10-11-2013, 03:52 PM
amai - i agree with the previous sentiments. this is amazing! and it's good to know that others struggle with his colors/brushstrokes/drawings but i think you should be proud.
great idea for using leftover paint, i'm gonna have to steal that one :thumbsup:

Michaelshane
10-11-2013, 04:46 PM
Michael ...some of your images are missing

Photobucket problems.I wish I knew a better way to post pics.

lovin art
10-11-2013, 04:53 PM
Michael ...some of your images are missing

Photobucket problems.I wish I knew a better way to post pics.


Mr M , cant you post to the uploaded ?! Is it not working for you ? I hope I can help ... :crossfingers:

Michaelshane
10-11-2013, 05:17 PM
Mr M , cant you post to the uploaded ?! Is it not working for you ? I hope I can help ... :crossfingers:
I've only ever used photobucket.

mtpalms
10-11-2013, 05:43 PM
Michael, try using the 'Insert Image' icon http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/images/editor/insertimage.gif above the reply field.

pcj
10-11-2013, 07:26 PM
Hi Everyone,
I've started 'A Vele Gonfie' again, this time using a larger
canvas and a cropped image but couldn't resist taking a break
from that and sketching 'A Jersey Calf'
Patricia
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2013/47666-tn_IMG_0313.JPG

lovin art
10-11-2013, 07:36 PM
That's looking so lovely Pat .....

pcj
10-11-2013, 08:50 PM
Oops, posted the wrong image - [ the perspective of the wall
was all wrong on the left side in the previous image ] so here's a
corrected sketch of 'A Jersey Calf'
[ I wish the editing time allowed was much longer !]

Charcoal on Cansons pastel paper.

Patricia
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2013/47666-tn_IMG_0315.JPG

NancyMP
10-12-2013, 08:49 PM
Patricia, it's such a good idea to take a break from concentrating on one thing and do something else, and that is such a sweet little calf! I've been working on the oyster gatherers and so far, I've only ruined the two leading figures.

But not to worry -- I'll wreck the rest of them in good time. Now I think I'll go have a cry...

lovin art
10-12-2013, 09:09 PM
Awe Nance ... i feel the same ...im often in awe of everyone else around me but you have no worries ...you got it chicky !! gota head:)

NancyMP
10-12-2013, 10:57 PM
I'm okay, Sandicat! I quit painting for the day and watched "Enchanted!" I don't think anybody can cry after that movie; it's one of my faves!

Amai
10-13-2013, 08:32 AM
Thank you all for the encouragement. I tend to really not like everything that comes off my easel, and then if I hide it, and find it later, completely love it. I'm just to close at first to all the little things, and the fights I had with it. :rolleyes:

lovin art smirky is definitely the word I would have used to. That was sort of what I liked about the underpainting :) I think you're right about the face width as well. I kept trying to adjust the ear because its a little far back, and then wimping out on adjusting the ear. Courage is something I need to work on, because in fixing things I'd either make it better or worse, but I'd improve at least.

adamrice I would heartily advise stealing the leftover paint idea. For me, its less about what's on the paper when I'm done, and more about seeing. Doing those has been a revelation in how much detail Sargent left out to get his likeness. Some of how he suggests the eyes without describing them is very brave, and complete works, and that is something I definitely aim to learn, so looking at it, and trying it gets it in my head.

pcj Your calf looks great. You caught the completely gawky newborn thing that Sargent captured.

NancyMP I think they're something about emulating Sargent, and realising you're not Sargent that leads to tears. At least I found that ;)

Clutterbilly
10-13-2013, 10:10 AM
Wonderful works here so far!

I started today on a "copy" of Sargent's portrait of Henry James, one I really love! Just started it with oil paint (on Arches oil paper) without drawing first, only looking for values and form. Afterwards I wiped some of the highlights in with kitchen paper.

Tomorrow I will paint the next layer and will keep you posted.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Oct-2013/1111552-sargent1.jpg

pcj
10-13-2013, 01:51 PM
Hi Nancy, Sandra, Amai :wave:

Hi Clutterbilly. Welcome :wave:
Your 'Henry James' is looking great, I love that method
of finding 'form' - the image slowly emerges from the canvas.

Patricia

lovin art
10-13-2013, 05:21 PM
Take courage Amai ... Your work is lovely and we all need that little push from time to time ... I hope you add more ..:D

Nice work Billy ...like Pat has noted , it's emerging ...

Hiya Patricia ... :D I think I've found one I'm wanting to do of his ...dam I love both his figures and his landscapes .... It's maddening lol

adamrice
10-13-2013, 05:38 PM
clutter, nice work so far! welcome aboard...

patricia, i just love your sketches, you really capture the mood :thumbsup:

well, i think most of us have had a good cry :crying: now back to work! :D

NancyMP
10-14-2013, 03:00 PM
:wave: Here's my feeble attempt at Sargent's masterpiece so far ... with apologies to the master.:eek:

I have the first four figures in, after a fashion. They still need work, but I'll put the rest in before I start tweaking them. Another point that I need to fix is the sky - I'll need to reduce the contrast up there, and tell those clouds that they're not the stars of the show!:lol:

"Oyster Gatherers of Cancale" after Sargent

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Oct-2013/203830-Oyster_Gatherers_painting_3.jpg

pcj
10-14-2013, 03:12 PM
That's fantastic Nancy !
All those figures ! - I have enough trouble doing just one !
Patricia

NancyMP
10-14-2013, 03:18 PM
Patricia, thank you! You need to find a regular life drawing session someplace up there! If you find one, you'll find yourself doing 4 to 6 poses a session! Great practice for all of us!

mtpalms
10-14-2013, 08:46 PM
Nancy! It's a great start, I think those figures look wonderful! This has got to be one of the most challenging pieces, with all of those figures.

NancyMP
10-14-2013, 11:15 PM
Thank you, Marcia! That's the thing; it's only a start. I can already see items in the figures I've got to correct, but with just the right amount of looseness. I'm using Liquin with my paint so I can achieve that watercolor effect. Then after I get them in, they will still get altered because I'm trying to follow Sargent's technique of working the background into the figures, and them into the background so they won't look so cut and paste.

mtpalms
10-15-2013, 02:44 AM
:lol: Oh, I know better then to tell you to soften those edges. This is going to be grand!

pcj
10-15-2013, 04:05 PM
Patricia, thank you! You need to find a regular life drawing session someplace up there! If you find one, you'll find yourself doing 4 to 6 poses a session! Great practice for all of us!

I love life drawing workshops, we have quite a few in this area [well, ie...within 50 miles] . Life sculpting workshops too. I go when there's a good
one fairly close. That will be much more often now since a local studio has started LD classes running all year long.

I wish more places would allow the sculpting too but they seem to
be overly concerned about the mess and clogged sinks :)

Patricia

NancyMP
10-15-2013, 04:54 PM
Neato, Patricia! I was a sculpture major early on and I wish we had some sculpting workshops. We studied bone, fat, and muscular structure in Sculpture that doesn't get covered in drawing and painting workshops!

lovin art
10-15-2013, 05:31 PM
Nance your handling this beautifully... Can't wait to see more ! :D

Pat , I'm with you I want to do more clay work it's addictive and really helps with understanding the dynamics of 3d projectory the solidness of subject !

NancyMP
10-15-2013, 11:54 PM
Thank you, Lady Alexandra!

ianos dan
10-16-2013, 03:19 AM
This is Wonderful!!! last night l was so captivated by this thread,and a little drunk:Dhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Oct-2013/1165823-respsd.jpg ,that l decided to give it a try ,and make some watercolor sketckes after this very talented guy .
l choose two of the works presented here,some portraits.
Liquitex ink and water on watercolor paper

lovin art
10-16-2013, 03:29 AM
This is Wonderful!!! last night l was so captivated by this thread,and a little drunk:Dhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Oct-2013/1165823-respsd.jpg ,that l decided to give it a try ,and make some watercolor sketckes after this very talented guy .
l choose two of the works presented here,some portraits.
Liquitex ink and water on watercolor paper


:D well my Good Sir , if this is what you can do a little drunk ...... Bring on the Champagne !!! :thumbsup:

My Lady N.....your most welcome :heart:

ianos dan
10-16-2013, 06:56 AM
lovin art (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/member.php?u=186639)! thanks a lot! yeah....a little drunk ,but it was okay ,since a still knew how to hold the brush :lol:!!you can try to paint in this state ,it helps sometimes :thumbsup:
l made to more sketches,same technique ,very rough ,to train my eye .it helps a lot in my job ,so ,another 2 sketches.
You all did great job in copying this incredible talented guy ,that was Sargent .l will follow this thread!http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Oct-2013/1165823-002rr.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Oct-2013/1165823-003rr.jpg

lovin art
10-16-2013, 08:42 AM
Hey ianos dan (http://http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/member.php?u=1165823).... Yeah lol well seriouly glad you can hold that brush dude ... :D ... Seriously ill just have to try then seeing you said so....I really like these - fully loaded with goodness and magic in there own way ! ...I try to think it not so much as trying to copy from a great master , but more like walking in his footprints .... And they are some big Feets....you need to post more of this wonderful work thanks - drink or no drink :p

Mr Estes
10-16-2013, 10:57 AM
Looks like Dan and I where parting with the same dancing girls last night! I found this thread and just had to try my hand a some of the dancers! Love the movement of light and really wanted to capture the forshortening of this figure. Only had limited success on the head thrown back. It is interesting painting from the masters and seeing the decisions he made along the way. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Oct-2013/1355699-image.jpg

ianos dan
10-16-2013, 12:01 PM
lovin art ,thanks ! yeah ,it was fun ,and, if l will have some spare time ,l will be glad and honored to post some sketches.
Hahaha,l have an idea:let's get all drunk and paint !!!a thread for those who are drunk and wish to paint .it's a joke ,but i think it might have some effect on our painting style!
about what you said :yes,in general ,don't do copies ,just for the sake of the final piece ,l try somehow to find some sketches of the artist ,find his way of seeing things ,and apply then in my own work,or copy l made (if l make it).So ,it's a bit like stealing some of his methods,but not to become a mannerist,but to incorporate their knowledge in my own creativity .l found myself that you cannot be him (just give a big name of an artist),but you can try to listen this silent masters.
to my shame ,l found very late this great painter ,and l am amazed by his craft :)
Mr Estes!Nice underpainting,although ,l think he preferred a direct method of painting ,putting local color ,thicker ,directional ,and very very confident on his hand .
Seems that we love all that folds ,and that beautiful silhouette ,and you also made a very nice movement .are you gonna go with color over ?
Nice underpainting ,or painting! :)

Mr Estes
10-16-2013, 12:08 PM
Direct method? I wish :-) Yep once I get all the forms and movement I can go over in color. Got so frustrated with the head that I had to wipe it, will give it another go tonight. You sir are a master draftsman!

NancyMP
10-16-2013, 01:36 PM
Dan, sober or drunk, it's okay to show your watercolor paintings on the Oily Rag, but we usually only use oils for posting on the other threads in the oil painting forum. Here's a tip on using oils, from a gal who used only watercolor painting in her career: Add turps, or Liquin, or the thinning agent of your choice to oils and you can get the same effect as watercolor. You can even do it on paper. Oil paints are very flexible and you can make them sit up and say "woof" for you!:D

I think these are really lovely, and the looseness catches the action of the figures beautifully.

Now I'll hafta break out the Irish whiskey before I do another session on the oyster gatherers!:lol: :lol: :lol:

NancyMP
10-16-2013, 01:39 PM
Mr Estes, I love:heart: the motion you've put into this dancer and I think you've done your foreshortening very well.:thumbsup:

ianos dan
10-16-2013, 02:31 PM
Thanks NancyMPfot the tip! l'm thinking about oil/egg emulsion !l will not use turpetine because l felt bad working on my Vlad painting ,so l really have to change my style a little bit.
Sorry for the medium l used ,it's not oil ,but it's about Sargent ..somehow :).
Yeah ,whiskey ,in your area ,here <in Romania ,we have tuica (romanian word),strong potion :),or palinca (another romanian word for this type of drink)

NancyMP
10-16-2013, 02:44 PM
Hmm, I've never heard of oil/egg emulsion; that sounds fascinating. And I don't suppose Liquin is sold in Romania.

I would love to get your recipe for the above, Dan! Even at an advanced age, there are still an astonishing number of new things to learn!

I'll bet tuica is like whiskey, very strong! The old spelling for whiskey was usquebaugh back in the 17th century.

ianos dan
10-16-2013, 03:12 PM
Very interesting and fascinating indeed
it seems that it was a period in Renaissance ,where they used this kind of method ,and also ,it seems that Michelangelo could have been used this kind of method ,because ,his unfinished painting .one of his ,it's started in egg tempera .
Here's the discussion l had on this topic :l was honored to have a special quest there!take a look if you want
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1301937&page=2&highlight=ianos

lovin art
10-16-2013, 05:13 PM
God - yikes man ... Who doesn't know of Sargent !!! :eek: ..yep no wonder you were drinking ...:wink2:

Mr Estes , I like that work loads ... It seems to me to be there's things that need work here in your approach to the figure -anatomy etc , but I also feel like Nance as noted it's still holds a lot ....nice work !! :D

Looks like I have to admit defeat and try and paint today :crossfingers:

Amai
10-16-2013, 10:19 PM
This is Wonderful!!! last night l was so captivated by this thread,and a little drunk:D ,that l decided to give it a try ,and make some watercolor sketckes after this very talented guy .
l choose two of the works presented here,some portraits.
Liquitex ink and water on watercolor paper

I don't think I've ever seen a more convincing reason to take up drinking... :lol: Although I think your results probably have more to do with your skills than your alcohol, so it probably wouldn't work for me.

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 12:58 AM
This is the second session with my Spanish dancer! http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/1355699-image.jpg

pcj
10-17-2013, 11:21 AM
Hi Everyone,

Ianos dan: Wonderful sketches !

MrEstes: Great WIP ! You caught the movement very well.

Hi Nancy and Sandra :wave:

I'm still plugging along with 'A Vele Gonfie', it's
still not right [the smile is very difficult !] - I would try
another of his paintings but this one has now got me darn
well determined to get it right !!!!

Cheers,
Patricia

Journeyman
10-17-2013, 11:33 AM
This painting was not one of the original images but I thought it would be OK to choose another example?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/95424-Hercule_Brabazon_Brabazon.jpg
Hercules Brabazon Brabazon

Hercules was a good friend of Sargent and I feel his portraits of friends are more interesting than the more studied portraits of the great and good.
This portrait is in the National Museum of Wales and although I’ve visited the museum many times I’ve never seen the portrait, they tend not to put it on display. However I now have the collection managers contact details so next time I go I’ll organize a personal viewing.

So here is my version done in one session started initially with some pallette scrapings from a previous portrait.

No1 initial drawing with brush into wash.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/95424-Sargent_Brabazon_Study_01.jpg

No2 Lights wiped out and darks stated.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/95424-Sargent_Brabazon_Study_02.jpg

No3 First Colour.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/95424-Sargent_Brabazon_Study_03.jpg

No4 As far as I’ll take it.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/95424-Sargent_Brabazon_Study_04.jpg

It’s difficult to get a good photo as it’s still wet and there are lots of reflections.

:wave: Dave

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 11:46 AM
Thanks Patricia for doing all the work to start this thread, I can't wait to see what next month is, although you could almost extend Sargent because of all the great work!!!!!!!

Dave, Nice work, you caught the expression very well which I love! Also almost as loose looking as the masters!

pcj
10-17-2013, 11:53 AM
Hi Dave, Welcome! :wave:
That looks great !
Thanks for posting the wips too. I love to see how others
do it.
Patricia

adamrice
10-17-2013, 12:02 PM
some great work!

so glad more people are getting involved :thumbsup:

ianosdan - usually when i drink and paint, it's a disaster! :eek: ...but i guess i can say that about most of my sober attempts too :lol:

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 12:12 PM
Journeyman; nice underpainting and painting .and man,if a knew this portrait ,l would have done some sketches :); you have captured the likeness ,and l think you could analogize his brush work ,he works with longer brush strokes than yours.so ,be brave and choose a bigger brush :)
pcj thanks !
adamrice;not to much ,just to feel more relaxed !:)
Mr Estes ;post the photo please vertical ,because l have a pain in the neck ,trying to see the painting.although ,l know your on the right path with the process :)
Nice!

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 12:19 PM
Posted it correct and looked good when I checked on it. Not sure what happened. How would I edit it? can't find any edit buttons. Sorry about the neck.

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 01:22 PM
no problem Mr Estes ! :)
l made some color sketches (oils this time) for two of the images provided here.
sorry about the quality ,but unfortunately ,the color is still wet ,and l will be able to scan them ,in about 2 days from now .
l tried somehow to forget about the meticulous work ,and give it a try ,with a brush fully loaded with color .
this are small ,about 17 cm high ,but the idea was to get the overall color and shape . http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/1165823-red7.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/1165823-colpsd.jpg

pcj
10-17-2013, 01:39 PM
no problem Mr Estes ! :)
l made some color sketches (oils this time) for two of the images provided here.
sorry about the quality ,but unfortunately ,the color is still wet ,and l will be able to scan them ,in about 2 days from now .
l tried somehow to forget about the meticulous work ,and give it a try ,with a brush fully loaded with color .
this are small ,about 17 cm high ,but the idea was to get the overall color and shape . http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/1165823-red7.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/1165823-colpsd.jpg


Hi dan,
These look great. - I'm particularly interested in your sketch of 'A Vele Gonfie' !! I've been doing battle with that painting for the last 2 weeks :)

Did you find the smile as difficult as I did ?

Patricia

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 01:46 PM
Love the brush work! Are you working as a professional Artist?

mtpalms
10-17-2013, 01:47 PM
Hercules was a good friend of Sargent and I feel his portraits of friends are more interesting than the more studied portraits of the great and good.
This portrait is in the National Museum of Wales and although I’ve visited the museum many times I’ve never seen the portrait, they tend not to put it on display. However I now have the collection managers contact details so next time I go I’ll organize a personal viewing.

Job well done on Hercules Dave. Such a pity you haven't had a chance to see it yet, good luck! I suppose museums have different reasons to not have certain pieces on display, or move them in and out more often. The Huntington Library has 2 paintings and one sketch - the paintings are in public view, the sketch isn't (or I just haven't found it). I bring this up because one of the paintings is this one:
http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/john-singer-sargent/charles-stuart-forbes-1883.jpg!Blog.jpg
And I thought their write up was interesting.
This lively study of the artist Charles Stuart Forbes demonstrates Sargent's masterful ability to capture his subjects' likenesses
with a bold, economical use of the brush; each stroke adds significantly to the composition. The off-center placement of Forbes gives the work a
casual atmosphere, as though it were done spontaneously. Sargent
scratched the personal inscription "to my friend Forbes" into the paint, which adds to the sense of informality. The wall-mounted container above
Forbes's left shoulder appears to contain paintbrushes, indicating that
the setting may be an artist's studio. Charles Stuart Forbes, an
American-born painter, met Sargent in Paris during the 1880s.
It was not uncommon for Sargent to paint oil sketches of friends, which he then gave to the subjects as gifts.
:) NIce gift!

Mr Estes, there seems to be a bug where cell phone pictures tend to revert back to their original position when posted, even if it looks right side up on the phone (and even when you upload it). I found that installing a simple photo editing app on my phone, rotating it in that and saving, solved the problem. I use Photoshop Express, but there are many other free apps out there. The alternative is to load the image on to your computer and rotate it there before posting, but that is not always an option.

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 02:12 PM
Thanks I'll give it a try. Checked out your link and love your work! The rusty old gears and Koi are my favorties.

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 02:29 PM
thanks Patricia!sincerely ,l found it more difficult than a classical painting,because it's all so explosive ,and yet so scientific,methodical ,so hard to emulate ,because l made this sketches without a drawing ,so yeah ,both of this studies where a lesson for me and l found them difficult to copy .
When l was tempted to make a small detail ,l was thinking about squinting my eyes ,and put a brush stroke,and leave it,otherwise ,l would have paint something more blended and not in the Sargent's style.
l know it's not 100% accurate ,but it was the color and the brush stroke l was following !

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 02:34 PM
Mr Estes;l am a professional artist ,but l work in digital media ,doing illustrations ,character concepts ,for living.
l have a professional art training ,but l never had an exposition or something like that .l do traditional art for me ,for the moment :)

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 02:43 PM
mtpalms,nice post! l love Sargent's oil,watercolor sketches ,he could catch a pose with two brush strokes ,and this is the measure of a genius.
Sargent was ,in painting,like Rodin in sculpture ;l could find some similarities in their style.Expression ,power ,synthesis !

pcj
10-17-2013, 02:56 PM
mtpalms,nice post! l love Sargent's oil,watercolor sketches ,he could catch a pose with two brush strokes ,and this is the measure of a genius.
Sargent was ,in painting,like Rodin in sculpture ;l could find some similarities in their style.Expression ,power ,synthesis !

Yes, he certainly was a genius !..... but with some of his paintings he also did many study sketches where he worked things out before doing the actual painting eg: 'El Jaleo', 'Oyster Gatherers', Spanish Dance' etc

Patricia

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 02:58 PM
mtpalms,nice post! l love Sargent's oil,watercolor sketches ,he could catch a pose with two brush strokes ,and this is the measure of a genius.
Sargent was ,in painting,like Rodin in sculpture ;l could find some similarities in their style.Expression ,power ,synthesis !


Funny as I was painting I was reminded of Rodin also, wanted to start chipping on some stone! He does seem to catch the movement in a few brush strkes, but seems a lot of work went into getting to those final strokes.

NancyMP
10-17-2013, 03:24 PM
Dan, you're knocking the rest of us out of the water, your sketches are so good! What paid the bills when I was a commercial artist helped support my fine art habit, so I think if artists can manage that kind of job, it's an immense help! You have really nailed that technique; it really does help to do a wash-in first; I have a bad habit of first drawing everything in with pastel pencil, which only gives edges, not form or depth. The next Sargent I do will be with brush only!

A dear friend of mine just mailed me (yes, an actual letter) enclosing two articles from art magazines about Sargent's Oyster Gatherers in order to help me! I haven't read them yet, but I'll share anything that hasn't been noted here yet when I do.

Which brings me, Patricia, to the point someone else made. The Sargent thread can go on through the next month; I notice that Jess is keeping the Rubens thread stickied, too, this month, so there will be lots of choice here with painting projects! I'm looking forward to a nother month of Sargent!

Marcia, thanks for that image and the write-up about Sargent and his friends! I gave one of my friends a portrait I made when I ran out of things to paint at work ... she volunteered to pose for me, and I did a fast one for fun. Turned out she loved it, and it hangs in her dining room! But wow, just think of being a friend of the master, Sargent! I'm thinking of making a close friend of Dan. If only he lived here...

Dan, go to the portraiture forum and enroll in the yearly holiday portrait swap if you haven't already! Maybe I'll get lucky enough to swap portraits with you!

I need to get back to painting today...

mtpalms
10-17-2013, 03:58 PM
Thanks I'll give it a try. Checked out your link and love your work! The rusty old gears and Koi are my favorties.
:heart: Thank you.


When l was tempted to make a small detail ,l was thinking about squinting my eyes ,and put a brush stroke,and leave it,otherwise ,l would have paint something more blended and not in the Sargent's style.
l know it's not 100% accurate ,but it was the color and the brush stroke l was following !
I understand that Sargent was known for stepping back after each brushstroke, to the point where he wore out a path on his rug! I truly think this may have helped him allow the eye to do the blending, instead of the brush.

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 04:13 PM
NancyMP ,you are to kind! it's always place for better ,and l know l have mistakes ,but l really enjoyed this kind of painting,and l always said ,"there's always somebody better than you ",and this sentence ,or idea ,made me work harder ,so harder ,that in one year (when l had about 16 years),l.ve tarted to vomit,because l was so tired and concentrated. l'm struggling with my own personality ,because ,from my childhood ,l dreamed about becoming a great painter ,but , l have to stay anchored in reality,and work in digital media.yes ,it's also a form of art ,yes you can earn some money ,but i fill that l belong to another world ,in which ,the true art (for me is painting),is your life ,not this drawing in front of your monitor ,it's really not to healthy .
l will be honored to participate ,but don't know if a have time:)
Thank you again for your kind words (although ,there was somebody ,in a thread ,that recently said ,"to much kind words ,and no hard critique" ,but we all know that hard critique could destroy sometimes ,and l prefer kind words,even if l say "thank you " for thousand times :) )

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 04:14 PM
oh ,l forgot ,yeah ,why not ,some exchange of portraits:)

ianos dan
10-17-2013, 04:24 PM
Totally agree with you mtpalms! it is also said that ,seeing Sargent working ,was a show in itself ,he attacked the canvas ,with big brushes,making movements like a swordsmen .
He also said ,and this is what l will have to do when l paint something in his style,that you should find the overall shape of the skull ,because ,there is the secret of the likeness .

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 04:33 PM
He painted form the inside out. His final brush strokes formed by the rest.

lovin art
10-17-2013, 06:42 PM
Everyone's an expert ..:) lol ha it's great to read the goods on him ...I also tend to think the man clearly painted because it was his drive and passion :D ...and I'm on that same road:smug: ( ok I never use that smug face but I'm using it here:wink2: ) ....I love his work for what it is and was at the time .... He boarded on the impressionist years , and at the same time he was of that solid training of Atelier academics training just like yours truly ...I've read his bio , and from 1874 - 1876 he actually had only around three years solid training at school pretty much The same amount of time I've spent at my atelier ...he was good mates with Claude :D....and he was an artist that utilized his artistry to his good fortune ...he traveled extensively painting and drawing which I think is a must for all serious artists , I plan on doing a lot more myself ...which I realised after coming back from CA and studying ...I feel it makes you even more grown in lots of ways as it opens you up to other artists that make you think hard about stuff and even learn from them things you never would if you didn't open yourself to that experience at the least ...

He exhibited extensively and sold solidly throughout his career ..but most importantly above all , he continstiently drew !!! Amen to that I say !!! :clap:

Dave , Really nice to see you posting , nice work there on that head !!! , love the skintones thankyou for the wip to great to see !! :D

Hia Pat :wave: ....glad to know you are still working away , I am hopping to start on the weekend ...:crossfingers:

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 07:10 PM
Everyone Here is just learning and musing. You should join in. Did you do a painting also?

lovin art
10-17-2013, 07:54 PM
I'm not having a go at anyone here for you information , just sharing my thoughts just like you it seems :D

I've actually posted a drawing at the start of the thread ..and I think I also took the time to comment on yours as well too btw , I'm most encouraging to anyone around me thanks!!

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 08:42 PM
I'll have to see if I can find it. Thanks.

Amai
10-17-2013, 08:43 PM
Journeyman That looks great! Very Sargent looking. I love the WIP steps you put up. Very cool as well as the finished piece.

ianos dan I agree with the general chorus of 'great sketches!'. I love the smile in the first, and the nose in the second. Beautiful work.

Mr Estes Your dancer is well worth a little bit of neck cramping to look at :)

fivespices
10-17-2013, 09:47 PM
Hi everybody,

This thread is so inspiring and everybody is doing so good on their paintings.

Looking at everybody's work and reading everybody discussion, it made me feel so encourage that I have to at least try to pick up my brush again after more than a year without painting. I feel so rusty! But it is good I know that I should not separate with my brush too long. Thanks everybody for participating.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Oct-2013/60973-image.jpg

Thanks for letting me joint you!

Kim

lovin art
10-17-2013, 10:32 PM
Really lovely work there Kim ... Love seeing your work here and your smily self :)

Mr Estes
10-17-2013, 10:38 PM
Kim, the world needs a surge of Art. We all need to be supportive of each other. Is that a Sargent you plan to paint?

fivespices
10-17-2013, 10:50 PM
Howdy Sandra,

Thank you very much for your support. You are so encouraging. I love to looking at your art too.

Kim

fivespices
10-17-2013, 11:06 PM
Mr Estes,

Yes, it is picture no. 12 of the first post. I am sorry it did not look The Seascape. I can not mix the color of the middle ground and the foreground orange and since I have not paint anything for such a long time. What I try to learn from this piece are the color/value change in each plane of the sky and the rocks. But it is not very successful in mixing the hue, therefore, you can not recognize it.
Yes, I need to practice my color mixing more.

Thanks for your interest.

Kim

adamrice
10-17-2013, 11:40 PM
kim - really nice looking painting. i love the color choices, it's very vibrant. it is so hard to do any sargent, i think, but his landscapes are deceptive because they look relatively easy...at least that was my experience.

anyway, good job :thumbsup:

NancyMP
10-18-2013, 12:53 AM
Hmm... if anybody could really paint like Sargent, he or she would be as famous as Sargent. I think he surpassed all of his teachers. Had I been born when my grandmother was, I would have rushed to study with him.

But did he ever teach that much? I keep reading hints that he might've done a little teaching, but am I missing something?

My arm recovered a bit today and I did some more painting, but nothing on the oyster gatherers worth posting yet. I messed up the sky pretty badly trying to make it less prominent, so I will have to work on that a third time.

I'm actually having a lot of fun with the figures, and I love:heart: the old lady telling the little boy he has to roll his trousers way high so they won't get wet!:lol: This is such a joyful painting to copy, but most of Sargent's are!

The only thing of course, is that it takes me three or four strokes to do what Sargent could do in one. There's a reason why this will only hang on my wall; it's not good enough to hang on anybody else's!;)

lovin art
10-18-2013, 02:42 AM
Kim your most welcome ....and thankyou for the kind thoughts your always so completely lovely doll!!

Nance , I agree ....my studies of great works are only fit for my walls to , and maybe post in here ..but yours are greatness ... I still remember your great Waterhouse Study another great artist I admire ...among many ! :D

Michaelshane
10-18-2013, 07:57 AM
I think he was a little OCD.I read that he painted his major works ten to fifteen times before he was satisfied.Maybe that's how you paint a masterpiece.

Mr Estes
10-18-2013, 10:27 AM
Kim,

Well to be honest I thought that was his seascape, brought it up on the big screen and I think you have done a great job, the sky is beautiful. I see what you mean about the hue being slightly off. But painting that seascape took some guts. I love the wave in the foreground of his work, almost sculptured and moving to the right. That and the sky make this seascape IMHO . Don't put the brush down!

Toril
10-18-2013, 12:43 PM
I think he was a little OCD.I read that he painted his major works ten to fifteen times before he was satisfied.Maybe that's how you paint a masterpiece.

It makes sense. I don't know if many other painters do it, but when you think of it, musicians and singers will practice a piece numerous times before they even think of performing it... and that's when it sounds effortless and easy. Most every art or skill is practiced over and over with repetition of the same, maybe painters put a 'spontaneity' pressure on ourselves that we shouldn't? Maybe sketching and doing studies aren't enough, actually painting the whole painting several times is what takes you to the next level? Or are we the easily bored/ADD creatives...? :D

NancyMP
10-18-2013, 09:08 PM
I don't think we actually reach that next level from intent ...it is more obsessive compulsive. Himself thinks I'm OCD and I feel like I'm just normal.:rolleyes:

Or if not, it's a magnificent obsession!:) (Now I'm wondering if everyone was OCD how we would get along; he's easy-going.:clear:

Sandra,:heart: we shared painting that Waterhouse nymph, and yours was every bit as good as mine!!!:lol:

pcj
10-18-2013, 10:52 PM
Hi Kim, welcome to the thread, you did lovely work on the seascape.

Patricia

pcj
10-18-2013, 11:07 PM
Hi Everyone :wave:

Well, I've been reworking my drawing of 'A Vele Gonfie'
and have decided that this is as good as it's going to get !

I used the more detailed image from the Tate Gallery rather than
the one I originally posted in order to get the features placed
correctly [ still not quite right ! ]- though I may use the lighting
in the original image when I start painting. The odd looking
bits on the cloak are the folds and shadow.

18" X 24" canvas

Patricia
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Oct-2013/47666-tn_IMG_0376.JPG

NancyMP
10-19-2013, 12:06 AM
Patricia, I think you've got the smile perfectly!!! And I'm glad you put up so many resources for us to browse through on the first page!

lovin art
10-19-2013, 01:27 AM
Really Nice there Pat....

I wanted to do more on this but time was running away on me and I limited myself on this i think about two hours .. but well you al welcome to pull me to bits as that constant feeling of cringe factor creeps in :cool: :) ....cheers will try for another tomorrow:crossfingers:



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Oct-2013/186639-046.JPG

ianos dan
10-19-2013, 04:31 AM
pcj ,,nice drawing !so excited to see the color part :)! the base is there now:)
also ,l will have to ask you if a can post Sargent's self portrait, copy that l made last night ,because it's made in gouache ,and this thread is oil painting.
lf not ,l will get open a new one ,but l think it will be okay ,because it's about Sargent anyway :)
Thanks!
lovin art ; that's what l call a brave statement !brush stroke ,than the detail will follow !
great job!

ianos dan
10-19-2013, 04:47 AM
as l promised ,here are the sketches ,this time ,scanned.
and some details of brush strokes .http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Oct-2013/1165823-correction_colorpsd.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Oct-2013/1165823-detail.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Oct-2013/1165823-detail2.jpg

Journeyman
10-19-2013, 07:21 AM
This has turned in to a very engaging thread with lots of interesting history coming in.

The Huntington Library has 2 paintings and one sketch - the paintings are in public view, the sketch isn't (or I just haven't found it). I bring this up because one of the paintings is this one
Thanks for the piece on Charles Stuart Forbes Marcia, when Sargent made a friend it was for life, he seemed not to fallout with his friends. His friendship with Vernon Lee (Violet Paget) started when they where children and eventually encompasses her friends such as Miss Clementina Anstruther-Thompson, and of cause he painted both ladies.

he painted his major works ten to fifteen times before he was satisfied. Michael that’s not quite how I understand it. As far as I know there are only two paintings that he made a second copy of , Sir Frank Swettenham, the second version is in the National portrait Gallery London and well worth seeing and a second unfinished version of Madame X (Madame Gautreau) what he did do was scrape back passages and sometimes the whole head before going back in with the finish, bit like Henry Tonks (professor of painting at the Slade) who accompanied Sargent to the trenches during WW1. Tonks came up with a method that acomplished the same thing as Sargents scraping back using newspaper, that method is now known as Tonking.
There is an account of him painting Antonio Mancini which took little more than an hour using heavy impasto, there was certainly no reworking on that one and I suspect that most of the paintings of friends were done very quickly.

I keep reading hints that he might've done a little teaching, but am I missing something?
Nancy he did teach at the Royal Academy Schools, but never wrote anything down, there is one account of his teaching written by former pupils Miss Heyneman and Mr. Henry Haley, there is also an interview with a Mr. John Collier about how he taught.

:wave: Dave

NancyMP
10-19-2013, 09:36 AM
:clap: Gorgeous work, Dan! You really have a feel for his style. That very soft, almost barely suggested end of the left side of Mrs. Charles Deering's mouth is soooo very Sargent!

Dave, I think his method was more just doing a second painting rather than reworking an older one - there were two versions of "The Oyster Gatherers of Cancale" hanging next to one another when I saw his exhibit in Boston: the one he did en plein air and the one he did in his studio.

Thanks for that bit about his teaching!

My dear friend sent me an article she had clipped years ago on Sargent written by John Howard Sanden. In it, he analyzes how many strokes he used on his painting of Vernon Lee, and I quote him: "...obviously a rapid, direct, single-sitting study executed without preliminaries on a canvas primed with a dull light gray. The darks flow together without linear definition; the shoulder flow into the hair, which in truen flows into the cast shadow and the background. Rapid calligraphic strokes give us the eyeglass frames; the frame around each lens is composed of three strokes only; two strokes make up the nosepiece; and a single deft stroke makes up the stem. The upper lip is set out in three or four soft strokes. Two crisp darks define the teeth. One vivid little sparkle of white makes the mouth moist. Notice the catchlight on the tip of the nose (one stroke). Each wing of the collar consists of perhaps three decisive strokes. It's an astonishing performance!"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Oct-2013/203830-vernon_lee-large.jpg

Journeyman
10-19-2013, 11:26 AM
For Oyster Gatherers of Cancale Sargent did various studies both drawings and oil sketches, the second painting you are referring to Nancy is also known as Fishing for Oysters at Cancale and is much smaller and less detailed than the eventual Salon entry and is usually referred to as a sketch.

It’s a well known fact that he had numerous sittings for most of his commissioned portraits and this included scraping back between sittings as Tonks did with his method.

The painting that Sanden commented on was of his lifelong friend Violet Paget who wrote under the pen name of Vernon Lee, this like most of the paintings he did of his friends that Marcia mentioned was painted in one sitting.

Some of the confusion comes from his time as an instructor at the Royal Academy Schools in the late 1800's he encouraged students to make copies of his work, one of the copies I mentioned of Frank Swettenham is thought to be the work of a student but finished by Sargent.

:wave: Dave

Michaelshane
10-19-2013, 11:38 AM
I didn't say he did ten or fifteen copy's of his major works.I said he started over that many times.

Mr Estes
10-19-2013, 11:46 AM
Dan's breaking the rules again:-) very nice and direct. Alex very nice , already stands on it's own, but what do I know. Thanks all for all the great history, this one thread has given me some direction.

pcj
10-19-2013, 12:21 PM
Hi Dan,
Very nice work and so fast !
Re: Posting the gouache self portrait - I'm not a moderator but
here's my opinion anyway - In the first post, I asked people to post
everything from the beginning study drawings in charcoal etc
through to finished oil painting so that we could see the whole process.
Sometimes many drawings of different paintings are done before
deciding on which one to do in oils. Sometimes , an oil painting can't be done
due to health reasons , I'd still like to see all the drawings .
Cheers,
Patricia

Mr Estes
10-19-2013, 12:53 PM
Just lighthearted , thanks

pcj
10-19-2013, 03:17 PM
Just lighthearted , thanks

I know it was :lol:

I was replying to Dan's question to me - quote "... also ,l will have to ask you if a can post Sargent's self portrait, copy that l made last night ,because it's made in gouache ,and this thread is oil painting..... " end quote

Sorry, I should have quoted him in my post.

Cheers,
Patricia

pcj
10-19-2013, 04:20 PM
pcj ,,nice drawing !so excited to see the color part :)! the base is there now:)
also ,l will have to ask you if a can post Sargent's self portrait, copy that l made last night ,because it's made in gouache ,and this thread is oil painting.
lf not ,l will get open a new one ,but l think it will be okay ,because it's about Sargent anyway :)


Hi Dan

Just to clarify my previous post - I'd like to see you post the
gouache self portrait study here in this thread.

Cheers,
Patricia

lovin art
10-19-2013, 05:25 PM
Hey thanks Dan , and mr Estes ...your right Dan, it was a brave statement ....because I did that in digital oils , I hardly ever use that stuff .... Digital I mean ....

Now your all asking is it ok to post it in here other mediums , maybe mine should be pulled then Pat ??!..... I thought it would be ok because it's oils still in a fashion ....I'm surprised you didn't notice Dan seening you work in the stuff ...:D

Oh mr Estes ...... You know I loved what you wrote , seems you know good art when you see it ....:wink2: and I'm with you ....Also , so much to learn from this Master ....and it's rather endearing to see ...- thankyou for calling me by my name btw - appreciated !!

pcj
10-19-2013, 05:47 PM
....because I did that in digital oils , I hardly ever use that stuff .... Digital I mean ....


Ah, that's it ! I thought there was something unusually defined about the
brush strokes but didn't know what it was ! :lol:

pcj
10-19-2013, 05:55 PM
Nancy, Alex [ sorry, I've been calling you Sandra] and Dan,

Thanks for nice comments on my drawing of 'A Vele Gonfie'

I must have filled half a sketchpad trying to get that smile right
- it kept looking like Elvis Presley.

Cheers,
Patricia

lovin art
10-19-2013, 06:16 PM
That's ok Pat ... Sandra is the short version of my name Hun ....I ment it purely as I'm not just lovin art ... But I am .:o :D ...ok I give up ...lol

Oh. The digital does that mean it's ok to post it here ! ... Hope so ...cheers you made me smile about her liking like Elvis ... What a hunk ! :D

Mr Estes
10-19-2013, 09:35 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Oct-2013/1355699-dancer_number_2.jpeg Here is the third setting with " La Carmencita" Very frustrating night and had to the scape the head twice. Just could not get the nose and the falling back of the head right. one square inch of canvas just about brought me to tears! More modeling now in the head, work in the shaw, dry brush highligts and warmer brown. and I think I'm done.

adamrice
10-19-2013, 10:52 PM
very nice work mr estes, i've enjoyed watching this one develop. :thumbsup:

Mr Estes
10-20-2013, 12:32 AM
Thanks , think I'll set it aside for a while.

adamrice
10-20-2013, 12:55 AM
sandra - that's pretty tricky, i wouldn't have guessed! but i don't have a very observant eye...yet...looks cool anyway

this thread has really taken off, no way to comment on everyone, but i vote with patricia - i like seeing all steps of a process, and for me that often involves pencil/charcoal drawings, or quick studies...in theatre design i used watercolors for basic set rendering, just to give the director an idea...but i digress.

i'll shut up now.

nice work everyone! :thumbsup:

ianosdan - the mouth on mrs deering isn't quite right, it should be more of a smile :evil: i don't think i've ever been able to give you a critique before! just ignore me if i'm wrong

NancyMP
10-20-2013, 01:16 AM
Ignore him, Dan...:lol: I love :heart: the way you painted her mouth.

ianos dan
10-20-2013, 03:41 AM
thanks Patricia for give me your "okay" for posting that portrait :)

ianos dan
10-20-2013, 03:49 AM
Mr Estes ;you became brave here ,in your brush strokes ,and i see improvement ,l was a little worried about you ,because l thought you will blend it ,but now it's clear for me that you will respect his technique :)
a little hint;try to put some shadows on his forehead and a little on the planes of the nose ,the one is facing you ,there are some subtle shifts ,just look at it :)the ear is also more reddish ,and the lips ,if you look close ,you will see some difference in the tone ,between upper one and the lower one.l think is still on work ,so ,you will have all the time to do that .
looking good!

ianos dan
10-20-2013, 04:03 AM
adamrice; l know it's not exactly there ,but just a suggestion ,it's very small ,the face is half of the length of my finger ,and i didn't used small brushes ,it was not my intention :),just to study his colors and the big planes ,the rest l could to ,but l'm satisfied with this small experiments.
l'm not ignoring you :) l gladly hear all the suggestions and critique !
also adamrice,you could draw with the brush ,the drawing is not just pencil:)
l myself ,in this case , only brushes ,the pencil was used ,but extremely loose ,on the sketches made in ink .
NancyMP thank you ...just suggestion in my painting ,and l've learned a lot from this master ,because ,if you study him closely,you will only suggestion ,leaving your brain to work and to "read' the painting as a highly finished piece .That requires more skill then doing the highlights of the teeth ,or some wrinkle ,and so on .
l think Mr. Sargent squinted his eyes so much ,he barely kept his eyes opened :))))LOL

ianos dan
10-20-2013, 04:52 AM
Here's the sketchy portrait l made after Sargent. (sorry Sargent for interpretation :D).
Purple pencil ,for the drawing ,and gouache with acrylics over.
watercolor paperhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2013/1165823-sarge1.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2013/1165823-detail2psd.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Oct-2013/1165823-detailpsd.jpg

lovin art
10-20-2013, 05:23 AM
Arrh that's it too most good artists do squint to some degree maybe more in the actual teaching/learning process .... But I have seen Casey Baugh paint and he doesnt squint .... And he was taught by Richard Schmid one of the greatest contemporary artists around ...:D

Nice working Mr Estes .... It's coming together ....i love the feel your developing in that work ...I think watching the shadow shapes will help ...the jaw needs to be abit more defined .. But I like the overall feel here ...:)

Thankyou Adam.... No tricks here ! ... It's called art rage if you have iPad try it out ... Good stuff ! ....I've seen K- KevinWueste do the most wonderful realistic oils in digital ...-love em Iv even been one of them which is posted in my blog ..:D


Nice work ianos Dan ....looks watercolor like almost ....lovely !!