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Verdaccio
05-02-2001, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Scott Methvin:
Are they really doing something now?

Yes, Utrecht has stopped making it and other US manufacturers have already or will soon. It is already getting harder to find in our art stores in Denver. Like I said, European manufacturers still seem to be making it so hopefully there will still be a supply.



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Michael Georges
www.fineportraitsinoil.com (http://www.fineportraitsinoil.com)

Scott Methvin
05-02-2001, 01:19 PM
Micheal,
The quality of oil painting will certainly suffer if they do ban it. Perhaps liability issues have scared off certain companies. Titanium and zinc have to be easier to sell. Art suppliers are rarely concerned with making paint that causes problems. If they were we could buy cremnintz without additives, real vermillion and real naples yellow. Better for them to sell a substitute.
Make your own paint and a whole new world opens up. Otherwise, you may find yourself using water-based heat cooked paint while wearing goggles and a safety helmet.
Keep stockpiling, but get the actual powdered pigment.
Think of all the competition out there that will have to use the only junk available. Good for us.

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"The patience of ants and the industry of saints."

Luis Guerreiro
05-02-2001, 02:58 PM
Excellent posting! I entirely agree with you. I have no doubts about how ignorant politicians and "red tape" spin doctors are when it comes to pass legislation. I am sure you will be able to import it from Europe or get some help from a member of the WC community living in Europe. Not to worry, you won't run out. We won't let you!

Leopoldo1
05-02-2001, 04:05 PM
Oh, the old lead subject again. I bought 50 large tubes from Utrecht last November when the pressure from the bureaucarts, bean counters and insurance companies/attorney's, using scare liability tactics, forced venders to pull it off their shelves. I agree with Scott(Senior Mesa) about still finding a way to get it either pre-made or in powder form. Still the best White! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/redface.gifL
<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2001/Skeleton4[1].gif" border=0>

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"Each artist must take inventory periodically and give himself an honest evaluation so that he can make the proper changes, rather than remain stagnant" ....NICOLAI FECHIN

Verdaccio
05-03-2001, 12:20 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I just wanted to aire a little frustration about the implementation of a law that is gradually pulling Flake White or Lead White off the market in the U.S.

Do we want lead in our housepaint? No.

But fine art is not typically nibbled upon by small children and this "one size fits all" solution really gets me hot.

I use Flake White in my underpainting because of its low oil absorbency (takes very little oil to make Flake White) thereby making it perfect for underpainting. I called Utrecht and bought up about nine tubes of it - enough to last me for a while. If Flake White goes away completely, then guess I will use Titanium White with Liquin. For now, you can still buy Flake White from manufacturers out of country, but they may eventually ban the import of lead based paints too.

The thing that gets me hot here is that Flake White has been in use by artists since the 1400s. Legislators have no idea that we use lead based paints or what we use them for and just willy nilly pass a law that ropes "all" lead based paints into the "bad" category.

Sigh...ok, rant over. Thanks for reading. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Michael Georges
www.fineportraitsinoil.com (http://www.fineportraitsinoil.com)

Scott Methvin
05-03-2001, 12:34 AM
Are they really doing something now? I haven't heard anything recent. I hope not.

Without lead in oils, you might as well paint with acrylics or waterbased "oils."
If they ban it in tube paint I would still be ok. I make my own from lead carbonate.
When Kremer or Cennini is forced to stop selling it, I will buy it from chemical supply house. Or build a manure pit and do it at home. Making lead carbonate isn't rocket science and they can't ever make selling the actual metal illegal.
Cadmium is pretty dangerous and so is cobalt.

Lead is our friend.


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"The patience of ants and the industry of saints."

Leopoldo1
05-03-2001, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Dru:
I notice it's still in Utrecht's catalog, but only in the small tubes.

Yes Dru, after this subject was posted I called Utrecht to see if I should stock more flake white. No more 150 ml tubes left but only 37ml and even that is limited and once all that is sold, no mas! They do have Winsor Newton's flake white #1 and #2 in 120 ml tubes but there again once that is extinguished the same senario. Interesting! In the future we might have to turn to our European friends or buy locally lead carbonate and pull out the muller. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/redface.gifL



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"Each artist must take inventory periodically and give himself an honest evaluation so that he can make the proper changes, rather than remain stagnant" ....NICOLAI FECHIN

sgtaylor
05-03-2001, 10:19 AM
Does anyone know if there is specific legislation under consideration, or are the manufacturers just bailing out to be politically correct? Verdaccio, you said something about the implementation of a law... would you happen to know what law that is? Federal? Bill Number? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by sgtaylor (edited May 03, 2001).]

Verdaccio
05-03-2001, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by sgtaylor:
Does anyone know if there is specific legislation under consideration, or are the manufacturers just bailing out to be politically correct? Verdaccio, you said something about the implementation of a law... would you happen to know what law that is? Federal? Bill Number? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by sgtaylor (edited May 03, 2001).]

Actually I heard it on NPR - they were talking about a law that had been passed banning the production of lead-based paints from manufacture in the U.S. That is really all I know. I called Utrecht and they confirmed that they are complying with the law and would no longer produce it.



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Michael Georges
www.fineportraitsinoil.com (http://www.fineportraitsinoil.com)

Shirl
05-03-2001, 01:17 PM
Geez, same old story, make a law and throw out everything. California is trying to get rid of ALL old cars, pollution you know, but having a hard time because of 57 Chevs and Vets, etc. They'll find a way....

I'd like to keep our foxes, thank you. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Shirl

Luis Guerreiro
05-03-2001, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Scott Methvin:
Thanks Luis!
And when they outlaw fox hunting in England you can come over here and use our foxes.

We have a surplus of celebrities here in the states, whose publicists tell them what causes they should be involved in. We would like to send you several plane loads of these important people and have you teach them the French language and send them across the channel. We'd really appreciate it.




Thanks. You know I was wondering about at my usual suppliers this morning and having precisely this issue in mind I started looking at how many different chances of buying lead white there are. There is a lot, I say!... In tubes and tins, powder form and only God knows what! The Law prohibits its sale for household purposes but it also contains a clause allowing its manufacture for visual arts. I am sure you can order it from London. Look out for this topic for a list of suppliers Best regards.

Luis Guerreiro
05-03-2001, 02:45 PM
Here are some suppliers that may be able to assist:
1-ATLANTIS ART MATERIALS (+44 20 73778855)
7-9 Plumbers Row
London E1 1EQ
United Kingdom

2-CASS ARTS (+44 20 79309940)
13 Charing Cross Road
London WC2H 0EP
United Kingdom

3-CORNELISSEN & SON LTD (+44 20 76361045)
105 Great Russel Street
London WC1B 3RY
United Kingdom
Obviously importing lead paint privately can be very expensive and you might be breaking the Law, I don't know... I certainly do not recommend to anyone to break the Law however stupid the Law might be. Anyway, you can always try. Good luck.

Robert
05-03-2001, 05:54 PM
I read the thread - panicked - ran out and bought all the flake white I could find (two tubes).

Feeling proud, I mentioned my exploit to a friend (a sort of advanced colleague/mentor who's been painting about 25 years to my year and a half). After peppering me with questions, he asked me if I would take a bet that I could tell the difference between a painting with a flake white ground and one with a ground in titanium or zinc white.

I'd like to take the bet (I need the money -and he's loaded) but I'm not confident I could really tell the difference.

Does anyone know a surefire way of telling the visual difference between a painting with a flake white ground and one done with zinc or titanium?

If so, I'll bet high and split the difference with you!

Bob

Verdaccio
05-03-2001, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Robert:
I read the thread - panicked - ran out and bought all the flake white I could find (two tubes).

Feeling proud, I mentioned my exploit to a friend (a sort of advanced colleague/mentor who's been painting about 25 years to my year and a half). After peppering me with questions, he asked me if I would take a bet that I could tell the difference between a painting with a flake white ground and one with a ground in titanium or zinc white.

I'd like to take the bet (I need the money -and he's loaded) but I'm not confident I could really tell the difference.

Does anyone know a surefire way of telling the visual difference between a painting with a flake white ground and one done with zinc or titanium?

If so, I'll bet high and split the difference with you!

Bob




I use Flake White in my underpainting because it is a color of low oil absorbency. This means that it is THE most stable color to put directly over your gesso. It takes very little oil to make Flake White - a ton of oil to make Titanium White. It is all about longevity. There is a specific way to build an oil painting so it will last for 300+ years. You want your ground to be absorbent so the underpainting will adhere to it, your underpainting to be absorbent so your color will adhere to it. And, you build your painting by not only painting fat over lean, but you build the painting fat over lean with colors of low oil content below colors of high oil content. This means that your painting will not crack over time as easily, will not flake, will not dull or discolor. Flake White is an essential part of my process.

So, there is no noticable difference in the initial "look" of a painting, but wait 50 years and you may be surprised... http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Michael Georges
www.fineportraitsinoil.com (http://www.fineportraitsinoil.com)

Leopoldo1
05-03-2001, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Robert:
Does anyone know a surefire way of telling the visual difference between a painting with a flake white ground and one done with zinc or titanium?

It would fairly difficult to do it visually. If he would take the bet in other areas you might have a go. The qualities of lead white far exceed zinc or titanium. If you could perform a stain test on dried pigment you might have him. One of the many qualities I enjoy about lead white is its working surface being smooth and nonabsorbent. If I want to get back to the white surface I can with lead white it won't stain. It also mixes well without overpowering the chroma of other pigments and dries rapidly. Maybe you can get him in these other arenas somehow? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/redface.gifL



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"Each artist must take inventory periodically and give himself an honest evaluation so that he can make the proper changes, rather than remain stagnant" ....NICOLAI FECHIN

taxed
05-03-2001, 09:47 PM
Interesting.
Just when I was getting a handle on things something like this goes on.
Is there a "best" book for making your own paints?
Thanks for posting all this.
taxed

Scott Methvin
05-03-2001, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Robert:
After peppering me with questions, he asked me if I would take a bet that I could tell the difference between a painting with a flake white ground and one with a ground in titanium or zinc white.

I'd like to take the bet (I need the money -and he's loaded) but I'm not confident I could really tell the difference.

Does anyone know a surefire way of telling the visual difference between a painting with a flake white ground and one done with zinc or titanium?

If so, I'll bet high and split the difference with you!

Bob



Bob,
The Lead should weigh more than the other two, all things being equal.
(I'll take small unmarked bills)



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"The patience of ants and the industry of saints."

Pilan
05-03-2001, 11:19 PM
eekkks! i better go get some flake white.

Does anyone have the recipe for making it or the lead white. I am going to be very depressed if I can't find this kind of paint. I would make my own if I can't purchase it. Can someone tell me what to get in terms of powders and how to mix it?

thanks

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In Search of Something Wonderful

Scott Methvin
05-04-2001, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro:
Excellent posting! I entirely agree with you. I have no doubts about how ignorant politicians and "red tape" spin doctors are when it comes to pass legislation. I am sure you will be able to import it from Europe or get some help from a member of the WC community living in Europe. Not to worry, you won't run out. We won't let you!

Thanks Luis!
And when they outlaw fox hunting in England you can come over here and use our foxes.

We have a surplus of celebrities here in the states, whose publicists tell them what causes they should be involved in. We would like to send you several plane loads of these important people and have you teach them the French language and send them across the channel. We'd really appreciate it.


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"The patience of ants and the industry of saints."

Scott Methvin
05-04-2001, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Pilan:
eekkks! i better go get some flake white.

Does anyone have the recipe for making it or the lead white. I am going to be very depressed if I can't find this kind of paint. I would make my own if I can't purchase it. Can someone tell me what to get in terms of powders and how to mix it?

thanks


Hi,
Go to sinopia.com
They sell flake white (pure lead carbonate) in various amounts.
You simply mix it with a pallette knife and linseed oil. Or walnut. It is very easy. Probably the easiest paint to make. You can keep a jar of the pigment and make small batches to use for one day or buy empty tubes from the same people. Good luck and be careful with the dust. It is poisonous and will kill everything in the house. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif



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"The patience of ants and the industry of saints."

Robert
05-04-2001, 07:33 AM
Michael, Leopoldo - appreciate the information. I get a lot of flak from my "elders" for being curious about how to do things that take time away from painting - (building supports, worrying about grounds, etc.) I get scolded and told I'm better off just buying readymades and painting. I see their point but I also see jars of lead white in their studios http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif - it's like "do as I say, not as I do".

Anyway, it seems to me that there's no argument that lead white makes the best ground for a lot of reasons and it's disturbing that it may be more difficult to acquire it in the future (when I'm "ready" for it)...

"The Lead should weigh more than the other two, all things being equal.
(I'll take small unmarked bills)"

... but that just MIGHT help me scam some money in the meantime. I won't forget you,
Scott!



[This message has been edited by Robert (edited May 04, 2001).]

sgtaylor
05-04-2001, 09:47 AM
I wouldn't take that bet just yet. How are you going to determine that the ground on one painting weighs more than the ground on another. I know that Scott said all things being equal, but all things are never equal.

As Rickie Lee Jones might say, he didn't get "any of that bread by being slow in the head. There ain't no such thing as easy money." I'd check around and see if there are any artists out there who have already taken that bet. This one sounds too risky to me.

Besides... being able to tell the difference (and you did say visually in your post - can't see the weight) in a new painting is to miss the point, is it not?

Keep thinking. There may indeed be a scam in here for you, but don't jump too fast. It goes without saying that if you need the money, you can't afford to lose it. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif

Robert
05-04-2001, 10:13 AM
"Keep thinking. There may indeed be a scam in here for you, but don't jump too fast. It goes without saying that if you need the money, you can't afford to lose it. "

Sigh... guess I was looking for an opportunity to checkmate the master - better off getting back behind the easel. Appreciate the sanity check, SG http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

Scott Methvin
05-04-2001, 11:30 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert:
[B] I get a lot of flak from my "elders" for being curious about how to do things that take time away from painting - (building supports, worrying about grounds, etc.) I get scolded and told I'm better off just buying readymades and painting.

Hi Bob,

You keep on being curious and trying new things.

Cranky old people may not be helpful when it comes to things they haven't done.

There are so many outstanding art supplies that can not be purchased anymore by the artist. At any price.

A good (real) gessoed panel is an example. You can't buy one, you have to make it yourself. And well worth it too! Stretching your own canvas allows you to use any kind of fabric you like as well as any size you like. You can start the painting unstretched and go from there, using far better materials and much cheaper in the long run.

Making your own paint is probably the most important skill to learn. Eliminating the cheap materials found in most tube paints and making colors do what you need them to do. Another important way to get more from your money.

Knowlege is power.
Understanding your materials is power.
I don't know why it is that the ignorant always feel compelled to give advice to those who want to learn.
("Don't sail over the horizon, you'll fall off the edge of the earth!")

If you have any questions about art supplies I will help find you the answer or tell you I don't know.

Good luck and keep looking.




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"The patience of ants and the industry of saints."

Leopoldo1
05-04-2001, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Mich451:
Years ago, when the powers-that-be decided to start removing lead white from the market, I started buying up the Fredrix white lead oil priming paint. I look for it in small art stores and mom and pop craft places, and ask them to check their storage shelves.

Boy, I can't agree with you more. I only have a half of quart of Fredrix White Lead Priming left. Wonderful stuff, the best I have every come across, even my homemade stuff. Dries almost overnight! I love it. I wish I could find more. I have tried to duplicate it but something is missing from my ingredients in order to have those same qualities. If you read the Fredrix label it is in this order: Linseed Oil, Lead Carbonate, Calcium Carbonate and Mineral Spirits. It stays forever in its container, like it was made the yesterday. Robert Doak out of New York makes a beautiful lead primer but you need to add his lead liquid to it to expedite the drying. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/redface.gifL


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"I find art is ever changing, and so too, I find myself in that flow of new territory with the opportunities of exploring the failures and the successes while liberally re-inventing myself, rather than remain stagnant and uninspired":oL

sgtaylor
05-04-2001, 01:48 PM
The bad news http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/frown.gif

I have no lead based oil ground in stock at all http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/crying.gif

The good news http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif I work principally on traditional gesso panels and usually don't need any. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

Even better news http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I have plenty of lead carbonate, as I usually make my own paint anyway... yippie! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

More bad news http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/frown.gif

I am currently working on an oil painting under a tough deadline, and had no paint mixed up ready, so I decided to go ahead and use some "store-bought" that I had hanging around. This stuff handles like... well like... uh... it doesn't handle nicely at all. I know now that I would have saved time in the long run if I'd just taken an evening and made up the paint I was going to need for this job. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/crying.gif

You live... and hopefully learn. I do not intend to make this mistake again.

I really had no idea that commercially prepared paint was that bad. I painted with it for years before I stated making my own and don't recall feeling that there was anything wrong with it. I guess I never realized how nice it is to have paint that is specifically formulated for me by someone who knows exactly what I want.

Robert
05-05-2001, 12:13 AM
Wise words, Scott. Like I said, some of the people I work with either make or have made their own supports, use lead white, rabbitskin glue, etc. - but advise me not to because they say it distracts me from easel time. I think they mean well. These guys would probably feel the same way you do but they know my work and know I have a long way to go before I need to worry about the archival quality of what I do. Sometimes I forget that and think they're "holding out" on me - but if you saw my work compared to theirs you'd probably laugh at that sentiment.

The thing I love about painting, especially oil painting (for me, anyway) is that there IS so much to learn. I guess the question becomes "when should you begin to be concerned with archival qualities?" For me, it's probably when I'm painting consistently well enough to think about saving them (I haven't even done a hundred paintings yet and most of them go in the trash after a short life on these forums).

I'm still a little perturbed that flake white's being phased out - but I'm glad to know that it's possible to make my own.

This thread has been very helpful!

Bob

[This message has been edited by Robert (edited May 04, 2001).]

Mich451
05-05-2001, 12:47 AM
Years ago, when the powers-that-be decided to start removing lead white from the market, I started buying up the Fredrix white lead oil priming paint. I look for it in small art stores and mom and pop craft places, and ask them to check their storage shelves. Fortunately, I primed about 30 canvases and 12 boards and still have enough of the liquid gold to last a bit more.

Scott Methvin
05-05-2001, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Robert:
- but advise me not to because they say it distracts me from easel time. I think they mean well. These guys would probably feel the same way you do but they know my work and know I have a long way to go before I need to worry about the archival quality of what I do.
The thing I love about painting, especially oil painting (for me, anyway) is that there IS so much to learn. I guess the question becomes "when should you begin to be concerned with archival qualities?" [This message has been edited by Robert (edited May 04, 2001).]

Bob,

There are many more important reasons to make your own materials besides archival quality. That would probably be in last place, in my opinion.

Homemade paints can be BETTER (and cheaper)plus custom tailored to your taste, Homemade Gessoed panels are BETTER (sometimes cheaper)
Hand stretched canvas is BETTER and CHEAPER.
The list goes on.

We all hope that our paintings will be around 250 years from now, but it is kind of silly to worry too much about that. Building the painting up properly and using fundimental painting techniques are always the best way to go about it. Knowing about the individual materials and WHY they are or are not archival will make the painting more so.(Jackson Pollack's latex paintings ain't gonna make it too much longer)

Archival is last on the list. Understanding your materials completely is one of the best ways to use your materials. It is amazing how many painters have been using oil paint for 30 years and don't have the slightest idea why they use what they use. They take the advice of a body pierced art student making rent money at the art supply store.

The other day I heard someone who has been painting for years remark how suprised he was that dry pigment color are the same source for oils, acrylic and watercolor, also egg tempera and encaustic wax. Only the binder is different. Well duhh.

I guess he thinks "natural" terpenoid is better than rectified terpentine too.

Anyway, knowlege IS power and blinders are for horses.

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"The patience of ants and the industry of saints."