the way guys paint women, the way women paint women

[SanDL]

Now has anyone noticed that men seem to paint women, the way they see and/ or want them and women paint women either they way they want to be seen or the way they are? There is a distinct difference in the attitudes of female nudes painted by men and female nudes painted by women. Whaddaya think?

[MichaelRH]

Hi SanDL-

I think it would be difficult to say this tendency can be applied "across-the-board". An immediate exception to this generalization..would be the gorgeous work of Olivia De Berardinis. There is a tendency to over-generalize her work..much of it appears to be "pin-up", but she (and what I've read of her models) are celebrating the beauty of women...be it sensual (and subtle) or more lol, agressively...erotic!.

I think there is pretty good cross-over..examples of men who paint as you say women do..and similarily...women (as in the case of Olivia) who paint women as you indicate men might.

Again, I've seen both men and women who paint women very realisically (See the female paintings of Lucian Freud for example)...although he seems to amplify this reality, his female figures are "intensly" real.

I think a LOT of men paint women as they might (lol) LIKE to see them..or fantasize about them, but I often find this emphasis on the erotic or sensual nature of women..can often be a very honest statement from the male perspective. I have noted (often) that (SOME)<------emphasis here! lol, of those qualities that make the feminine gender soooo...wonderful!!! are often down-played by females, and I realize that certainly, women do not appreciate being portrayed as "objects".

Everone has multiple dimensions...sexual..intellectual..insightful...on and on. I'll take Olivia's work for example. I recently purchased a new book of her work: "Olivia's Cheesecake Chronicles". (I hear someone laughing...lol), but even in the choice of title for this book...she (Olivia) is pointing out the humor in this designation (cheesecake). (poking fun lets say...) Now, if you pick up this book, and read the comments about her model, who for most of the work in this book is a model by the name of Rhonda Ridley.............well, Rhonda Ridley is a very confident woman...quite pleased that males AND females find her attractive..fun, joyous..intelligent..open, and (frankly)..sexy!

I guess the point I'm making in regard to your post SanDL...is that....negative perceptions of HOW females are painted....are usually (or often) the negative biasis/perceptions that CONTINUE to be held by some viewers, especially when it comes to work that emphasizes only one or two sides of feminity.

Many erotic artists (and I'm one of them) are actually celebrating the joy of sensuality..in many varied forms. Here is one for you SanDL...I have also found male figures quite sensual..and have seen examples when male figures (painted by both males AND females)...could be viewed as quite erotic. (the male sexuality has been hightened intentionally...in part, to draw ATTENTION to it. (again, very honestly done on the part of the individual artist).

I hope this response to your interesting topic..was not TOO DARN long! lol.

SanDL..good thread, not sure if it will be moved or not to the Art, Society and Debates Forum, (I'm not skilled in MOVING threads hehe!) ------> still a bit of a computer illiterate!!! :rolleyes:

One more thing, and I'll probably get a few slaps with this remark, but I've noticed that intelligence, inquisitiveness, a good sense of humor, and a love of life-(a finely tuned sense of what is sensual...pleasing.and yes, erotic)..often go hand-in-hand with some artists who lean toward erotic or sensual work. I find Michelangelo's work..sensual, or for that matter...many works by "old-masters". (I think I often tie the word sensual to joyful).

ok, one more thing LOL...sorry. I am hoping Rebecca will read this thread and this post. Because....... I've always felt that for me...focusing on the figure to the degree that I do, well, I've mentioned before that the "energy" that motivates my figure work...is well, I define it as erotic/sensual based, even if an eroticism is NOT emphasized in some of my work. I am curious (Rebecca) if you see this last paragraph....if...(when you get beyond the asthetic considerations of your work)..if there isn't the same (in some form or other)..an eroticically..(perhaps better said) sensually charged element that (in part) is the motivator for at least SOME of your work? I've read somewhere that the "energy" of a lot of creativity is fundamentally sensual or of an erotic (as we might each define the word) nature. Just curious.

Glad you posted this topic btw.
---Michael

[Rebecca]

Originally posted by MichaelRH
Hi SanDL-
I am hoping Rebecca will read this thread and this post. Because....... I've always felt that for me...focusing on the figure to the degree that I do, well, I'm mentioned before that the "energy" that motivates my figure work...is well, I define it as erotic/sensual based, even if an eroticism is NOT emphasized in some of my work. I am curious (Rebecca) if you see this last paragraph....if...(when you get beyond the asthetic considerations of your work)..if there isn't the same (in some form or other)..an eroticically..(perhaps better said) sensually charged element that (in part) is the motivator for at least SOME of your work? I've read somewhere that the "energy" of a lot of creativity is fundamentally sensual or of an erotic (as we might each define the word) nature. Just curious.
Glad you posted this thread btw.
---Michael

Oh yes, Michael. The human figure is undeniably a most forceful and meaningful vehicle of expression. To grab my viewer, I absolutely use seduction. Is it manipulation? I do it consciously because I know it will hold my audience long enough to receive the rest of the message, so it is manipulation. But, more important from my point of view is, I get greater idea intensity by exploring the realm of the sensual than by avoiding it. The sensual charge is a powerful platform on which to convey a theme. Just think about so many of the great themes of literature, dance and past art. Oddly, contemporary art schools have discouraged such audience "manipulation," while encouraging future artists to somehow express themselves. They seem to confuse the pursuit of "beauty" as hopelessly retrograde. From my point of view, the sensual part of the internal and visual world is so screaming loud, it would be the height of self deception to turn from it. No other art form does this.

[MichaelRH]

Originally posted by Rebecca_A


From my point of view, the sensual part of the internal and visual world is so screaming loud, it would be the height of self deception to turn from it. No other art form does this.

Rebecca..my point exactly. I couldn't agree more. The intensity of ones love for their subject matter (I would think) HAS to be motivated by emotions in the artist that relate TO the subject.

I agree, that the figure (as an art-form) allows for so much to be communicated. The amount of information (love, sensuality..strength..on and on) that can be conveyed by a figurative artist is tied directly with the degree to which the artist responds to the figure...(and of course the skill of the artist).

[SanDL]

...and I can't believe I'm sitting at the computer after a 6 hour drive in a thunderstorm that seemed to be tethered to my car! BUt...I agree with you, Rebecca and you, Michael. And I'll post something more intelligent tomorrow morning when I'm not so exhausted! In the meantime check out these mangoes. Small piece 9x12 oil on canvas. Was rejected from my gallery as being well, too "intimate".

[deevaa]

I usually paint figures that I identify with... either how I'd LIKE to be, or how I see myself.

I painted the attached painting recently, and feel it is pretty similar to my own body, however when I hung it in the living room my mother asked me to take it down, saying she didn't like the 'fat woman'.

I said not all woman are thin, and that I thought it was a pretty natural figure, Mum replied that she knows all woman aren't thin, but that she can see a chubby woman when she looks in the mirror she doesn't want to see one on her living room wall.

Personally I think she looks damn sensual. I'm proud of my curves. SO THERE :p

She is STILL on the living room wall.

[deevaa]

Originally posted by SanDL
...and I can't believe I'm sitting at the computer after a 6 hour drive in a thunderstorm that seemed to be tethered to my car! BUt...I agree with you, Rebecca and you, Michael. And I'll post something more intelligent tomorrow morning when I'm not so exhausted! In the meantime check out these mangoes. Small piece 9x12 oil on canvas. Was rejected from my gallery as being well, too "intimate".

Oh I LOVE your mangos! If I may say so!

I had a nude rejected from a gallery for having "too many nipples". Two. Two is too many. :rolleyes:

It makes you wonder sometimes.

[SanDL]

Thanks for the reply, deeeva. Since my mango pic has only one nipple, it may have qualified. Love your curvy lady; paint away....Just a few more mangoes that really belong in the still life section but they seem so apropos...

[Ivyleaf]

Okay, I think this thread could easily belong in debates...lol

Deeva, if your mom thinks that lady is fat...sigh...I personally think she could use more curves!!! And my hubby would agree with me!

I think there is sooooooo much stereotyping going on, about what the perfect or ideal woman is...I get tired of seeing perfect/ideal women. Give me someone with 'flaws and imperfections' anyday, they have more character!!!

I don't know if it's a mars/venus issue to be honest or not, but I do see more works in here trying to depict the perfect/ideal woman, that it's refreshing to see something like dj's model Geri being posted.

Women with curves, and lots of them, are very sensual and erotic to LOTS of people, most won't admit to it though because it's still seen as 'not normal'.

However, if you go back through history, especially Celtic history, you will find that women that are curvy and have meat on their bones, were considered to be healthy and the most revered. Skinny women were thought to be unhealthy and weak. Personally, I'd love to take a trip back into time :D . I guess that is why I love renaissance faires so much, cause it's the one place where curvy women are truly appreciated :D

Except in my own home, my hubby has a fantasic appreciation of my curves ;)

[deevaa]

Ivy -- I don't think my Mum would have used the word 'fat' ;) She is however someone who has been on every diet there is.. ever since I can remember. I even used to get dragged allong to 'Weight Watchers' when I was in my early teens. Yet, I've never had a problem with my body image.. if anything I've always wanted to be taller, not slimmer! (I'm an American size 14-16)... My guy is also wonderful, on those days that I grumble about putting on weight he is SO supportive and loving. Yay my guy.

SanDL -- have you posted your 'mango series' anywhere? I'd love to see them in a group! The colours are fabulous!
:D

[youmna]

Hello SanDL,


I guess you should also ask yourself if women and men paint fruit differently!! ;) Your mangoes are so... evocative, to make an understatement! The contrast of the vibrant orange mango on the soft, heavy, breast is very attractive, and what makes the piece even more erotic in my opinion, is the shape of the breast... very heavy, a bit like the breast of a feeding mother...an image that is not usually associated to sexuality and sensuality.

To comment on your initial question, without repeating what Michael, Rebecca, Deevaa... already said and that I agree with... I would simply like to stress that women often shy away from the sensual or erotic representation made of them, because THEY don't want to admit this side in them. A bit like it is less valorizing to be sexy than to be intelligent! it is quite a basic example of course, but it shows all the difficulties women often have in dealing with all the different aspects in their personalities. The complexity IS the most interesting aspect in our personality (not saying that men are not complex of course, but focusing on women here :D ), the fact that you can discuss politics or philosophy while still being feminine and attractive, to give a basic image as well but that works pretty well! Art reveals what you consciously want to reveal, but also and maybe even more what you unconsciously think and project...

btw deevaa your painting is so gay and cheerful! (totally disagree with your mother of course)

Youmna

[SanDL]

Youmna, I agree, well said....the sense of complexity might be what I am seeing in the nudes painted by women and less in the nudes by men...notable exceptions Manet's Olympia and Lucien Freud's figures (although they look psychologically tortured to me rather than complex). In the states sexulaity is a complex issue, and more complex depending on which state one lives in. I grew up in Germany where sensuality was celebrated and perhaps even exploited in the tabloids. When I moved to North America I discovered a bit of a twisted view on both sensuality and sexuality. Maybe not twisted but confused.

A comment on Michael's sensual male nudes: Sensuality can be found everywhere. Artists are particularly attuned to this. Most of the artists I know don't discriminate when they find their source of inspiration, they run with it. I mean to say if you find an inspiringly beautiful women you paint her and if you find an inspiringly beautiful man you paint him, and if it's fruit, it's fruit!

;)

[Mario]

Can't help but notice a special quality to this thread...especially since the last several posts....then, there's the fact that the last several posts are all done by women...hmmmm...I would start a thread, on this forum, titled "For Women Only" but then, I would be an Oxymoron, wouldn't I ??

[SanDL]

Mario ! c'mon jump in! I want to hear the male point of view.....although in a psycho analytic lecture I once heard that artists tended to be "sexually ambiguous". What horse ****!

I know beauty when I see it and I don't necessarily consult my local planning board before I paint it.

[Verdaccio]

We are all physical creatures programmed with thousands of years of evolutional "instinct". Things appeal to us and we don't know exactly "why" - they just do.

As a male, I for one love a woman who has a little meat on her bones. The Auschwitz models on the runways today would just hurt me with their bones all sticking out. :D

I love the classical female figure - slightly Rubenesque.

Bring into this mix the social morays that we all grow up with - guys being taught how to see themselves and the world around them - including women. And women being taught how to see themselves and the world around them - including men.

I believe that a guy forms his body concious image of himself at about 16-20 - for the rest of his life he thinks of himself as being that - even when he is 45 looking in the mirror at the 8 inches of belly hanging over his belt and his bald head "I'm dead Sexy!" he thinks. But he really isn't.

Women I have been told form their body concious image at a slightly earlier age but with a twist - they are taught not to see the "good" things about themselves, but the "flaws" - this is first-hand research from my wife. A woman at 45 looks in the mirror at her face and breasts which are not as wonderful as they were at 20 "I look like toxic waste!" she thinks. But she really doesn't.

A basic difference between men and women is self perception - and perception becomes reality when translated into their art.

Male bodies are (or should be) about angles - the V shape repeats itself in the male body. The female body is (or should be) about curves - the S shape repeats itself in the female body. How an artist translates that in their art will be greatly influenced by how they perceive themselves.

My 2c :)

[SanDL]

Thank you, I like a guy who dives in with both feet. The issue is multi-facetted and dependent on cultural frameworks, too.

[wnabors]

I for one try to use the difference between male vision of female figures and female vision as a reference for reality in figure work.
It helps me check a tendency to make idealized pretty pictures and just maybe turn out pieces that will appeal to humans in general. I grew up overseas in Europe and can't escape my classical bias. To see women tortured by the impossible stick images that pass for the popular female ideal ..upsets me. Degas was one of the prime reasons I began imaging the female form.
He seemed real to me in his portrayals of women around him. His work made me take a look at the people I saw everyday and SEE them. I was shocked to read more than one criticism of his work as misogynistic. It seemed obvious that he felt anything but antagonistic toward his subject. In search of more realistic portrayals I sought to find female artists who did female figure work..you know..go to the source! It helps balance me I hope...how boring it would be (for me) now to only have one point of view...

[mARZ]

I think you correct, but I don't think its just men vs women, I think its each person. I draw/paint things differently from anyone else, its a personal thing, I find a perticular curve to be the key to a pose while someone else may not eccentuate that same curve like I would. What I find exciting may seem only technicly correct/or not by someone else while I'd totally lose interest without it! (this is of course personal observation.) Along this line I would agree with most of the posts.

:D

mARZ

(Sorry if I rambled)

[youmna]

Dru,


Hi. I totally disagree with you, and I'm a woman. I have never felt offended with any of the posts in this forum. I guess everyone has the right to express him/herself in his/her own way, some people like these "adult" material and "distorted" representations as you call them, and I don't see anything bad with it. If it were that shocking and offending, I think people would have reacted much earlier!

Which doesn't mean of course I don't respect your opinion and your courage to express it, but just wanted to tell you that there can be other people who don't think the same way, without being perverse. It may also be true that people who disagree with a given post do not necessarily express themselves as much or as often as those who agree... that's life, thank god we're all different!

And btw, HUMOR can be, very often, a fundamental dimension of this material you mention... One french humorist once said" You can laugh of everything... but not with everybody".

Your sense of humor is maybe different from that of people who enjoy these posts, and maybe you will find a joke racist when another one won't... nothing wrong with it! I think though, that what makes all the difference, is the behaviour of the person in real life. When you make racist jokes for instance, and your everyday behaviour is totally opposed to that, it is indeed only a joke... when your behaviour is not that clear, the joke is probably less funny...

Most of us in this forum don't know each other in real life. Why not assume positive things about the others, and good intentions, instead of bad ones?...

Nice to see though that we can express ourselves so openly here, I guess there will be other reactions to your post and am looking forward to read them.

By the way, do you enjoy drawing/painting... the human figure yourself, and what type of subjects do you like to represent?? Looking forward to your answer!

Youmna

[Mario]

Nice post, I notice that you just joined W.C. I'll be looking forward to reading more of your posts in the future.:clap:
..and where's your tiny head from? looks familiar.

[Mario]

I've just had my fourth class experience with a female nude model...It's a struggle for me just to get the painting looking like a woman....I almost said "attractive" woman...Men see women as beautiful...that's what keeps babies showing up...I can't wait to see "how" I paint women..first I'll have to learn some more of the craft..it will be a revelation to me, to see where "I" go with it...can't imagine.

[wnabors]

I loved my classes with live modeling..sometimes found myself hiding quick sketches I had made from the instructor before she could stop by and insist on "improving them". I think one of the best things I learned was trusting my own vision...(literally)

[MichaelRH]

Originally posted by Dru

I know not everyone can draw from life, but using 'adult' materials as a source definitely adds a certain inhumanity to the work . . .just as extreme distortions to the woman's face and body can stand for covert expressions of violent feelings towards women . . . sometimes it's downright creepy. And it's never been a woman's posting.


Often the poster will add on a commentary intended to 'explain' (but really excuse) the work. It's never convincing enough, at least for me . . .


Sorry if this post is a downer.:crying:
Dru

Dru, "welcome to Wetcanvas"
Your post is not a "downer" :) to me.


Dru, I believe you misunderstand my work. (Completely)..but we are all free here to believe what we wish..or choose to believe.

I use images from a wide variety of sources...including the internet. I don't equate "adult" material
(as many do), with the terms negative or "inhuman"..actually adult material is quite honest and VERY human in my opinion.
Due to lack of models, I often
use gestural/pose references from many sources. (For practice..and not with the intention of duplicating the image.) Primarily for the exploration of ideas, themes, and technique. Many artists do.

Your are certainly correct in your assumption that "extreme" distortions *can* stand for underlying -"covert" expressions of violent feelings for women.....or they can stand for many other labels and assumptions...depending on our
(your?) own projections...and notions..as we view *any* artwork..that involves the use of distortions (in male and female figures).

I use distortion for many of the same reasons Francis Bacon used distortion. Some of the MANY reasons Francis Bacon used distortion can be discovered with a little reading. I also distort the male figure..perhaps a little less frequently. :( I'm not singling out females over males that I am aware of. :)

My dialogs are not at all used to "excuse" my work, but you
are certainly free to think this. And yes...some of the associations between dialog and image may fall short. I've been told this by other artists, and I agree. Not all of my work is as successful as I'd like it to be for that matter. (They do sell however)

The very same (almost identical notions that you are once again bringing up, have in fact, been brought up by other members here...not that long ago. I suppose many members here will always continue to agree...to disagree. And, certainly , negative opinions of my work...will continue to surface, I'm quite sure.

I have a feeling that you and I will also continue to (agree) to disagree.
I have a saying that saves me a lot of time trying to explain my work to viewers with opposing (and strongly held!) points of view. I never spend time trying to explain to someone what is around the corner, until they've (under their own initiative and power).. reached the corner. Even then..they may choose not to look or even believe).

I no longer try to rationalize or take a great deal of time to explain my work...to everyone. Some viewers have notions and assumptions that reflect more of what THEY want and CHOOSE to to see and understand about my work..than what I am intending to present, regardless of my successes and failings in attempting to make my statements.

It is certainly not my responsibility to try and change ones fundamental beliefs. I'd rather be painting and doing my own explorations.

Many pople (who seem very honest and sincere), seem to understand my work immediately...others may never. What can I say....?

Once again Dru, I appreciate your honest opinions and thoughts.
I'm quite comfortable with any negative responses (and numerous misunderstandings about my work). I anticipate many more in the future. That is the nature of my work..and the result of the topics I choose to explore and the nature of my presentations.


I draw and paint from many different points of view, and I've always thought it is unfortunate that because an artist explores many different areas..(some of which may be controversial)...that it is usually just one or two themes (in a wide range of themes) with which viewers CHOOSE to evaluate the ARTIST...and the work. A very unfortunate tendency...in people. I honestly think it is a fault of the viewer, and it is not only in regard to viewing artwork that (humans) have a marked tendency in which to do this. I'm sure wars have been fought over false assumptions.
Sad... :crying:


I've felt that very little can be learned of the artist..by simply evaluating the artist's work. Most of that is assumption..in most cases. (If the work (even the total range of work) is used as the sole reference).

I have posted a number of my "drawings" from life.

Glad you decided to post your thoughts. I'm sure you're not the only one who feels the way you do about my work.
--Michael

btw: My website is located at
http://www.krweb.com/pages/mike/index.shtml

You (may) find that all of my work is not the work of someone who dislikes women..then again you might. :rolleyes: oh well.

Regardlesss of the way I depict the female or male form...many viewers don't seem inclined to make your assumptions..based on the relatively small body of work that they have seen.

By the way Dru, I attended Art Center College of Design, in Pasadena, California. Based on my portfolio (which was created in Jr. College..and which included volumes of life-drawings, both male and female, as well as MANY !!!!! fashion drawings and sketches...a fair amout of "cheesecake" (the term used by the evaluating counselor at ACCD)..I was granted admission. The application evaluations at ACCD are quite vigorous...many are turned away I hear..

My major (due to a lack of a figure-oriented fine-art program at the time)-- ACCD is primarily a school of design..and well recognized...was "Fashion Illustration". I have a VERY high regard for all things (I've stated this before in another thread) female, and a love of fashion (female fashion in particular).
I was also fortunate (VERY fortunate) to study with a master of classical figure drawing while at ACCD..Harry Carmean.

hope a little background information will help you with your initial evaluations of my work and character.


:rolleyes: <-------I love this guy!

I get no special favors as one of the moderators btw. Not everyone here loves me, and some may just be humoring me! lol.
Dru, I'm looking foreward to seeing your work.

[SanDL]

Thanks for your comments, Dru. I am a big fan (that doesn't really say it, though...I'm not just a fan...I feel his work in my bones)of Gauguin's. I'm working on a nude right now and I find myself wanting to refer to Gauguin's "Nevermore" . Your post seems a bit serendipitous to me and I think I will pay closer attention.

Btw way I understood your post, and I agreed with it, this doesn't mean that I disagreed with anyone else. The issue has so many sides to look at. An excellent bit of writing on the subject is in "Ways of Seeing" by John Berger. This book changed and strongly shaped my thinking.

[Sandi]

Interesting thread, SanDl.
I'm a woman, and love to paint and draw with honesty. Most of the times, my emotions take over.. and I'll draw and paint how I feel that day. Sometimes sexy, sometimes drained of energy, sometimes great hair day, sometimes bad hair day.

Here's one of my worst hairdays. Ever feel like this? It was drawn during a live model session, but my own bloated yucky feelings of the day took over. My peers said it looked just like me instead of the model. lol ouch, but true for being one of 'those' days. Funny thing is, the guys all turned their heads sideways with an empathyzing look. I think they understood ....

Ever have a Mz. Suess day? :::WARNING! not for the faint of heart::::

[TeAnne]

Sandi:
Well, I see so much freedom in it and spontanity :) AND expressive colours. You must have been having a bad day :)

[youmna]

Hello Mario,

Thanks... It's "Judith" from Klimt.

Youmna :)

[Mario]

I, also, am smitten by Gauguin. If/when I can get my own spiritual/artistic quest together, it will be down that same path that he took in many ways. What's he saying? Abundancia, fecundity, the magical animism of Mother Nature...there is a real re awakening in the human soul of a beauty faintly remembered.I have only just begun to see thru the eyes of Gauguin.

[wnabors]

Now this is what I'm talking about..I doubt if I could have done a painting like yours...I try but the real insight is lacking..this is great..expressive in color AND form..with our lil bug just 7 mos. old
, i see my wife working to recover.. I showed her this and she went "OH YEAH..it's one of those don't mess with me days!" You reached her in an instant. HUGE KUDOS..(greedy to see more!):clap: :clap: :clap:

[Sandi]

Originally posted by wnabors
Now this is what I'm talking about..I doubt if I could have done a painting like yours...I try but the real insight is lacking..this is great..expressive in color AND form..with our lil bug just 7 mos. old
, i see my wife working to recover.. I showed her this and she went "OH YEAH..it's one of those don't mess with me days!" You reached her in an instant. HUGE KUDOS..(greedy to see more!):clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you for your enthusiasm and comments. :)
Now every time you're asked how bloated she looks to you, you'll KNOW what she's really feeling like. Shake your head in truely understanding and tell her how beautiful & adorable she really and truely is. ... Then go get your paintbrush while it's fresh in your mind. :)

As soon as I get the prints made of the other ones laying about the studio, I'll add them to my site. Thanks for the encouragement. :)

PS. Congratulations to your new addition to the family! :)

[Sandi]

Thanks Te! I appreciate your comments. :)