Detail work with pastels [Archive]

4vincent

08-03-2000, 09:23 AM

As I stated in the other forum, I usually use Nupastels sharpened to a point for small detailed work. These are hard enough to hold an edge and still retain good color, plus they're relatively inexpensive. I don't think the other brands, even the harder ones like Grumbacher and Yarka would hold a point.

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4Vincent(Ken Hardy in Oak Room) (http://www.artcafe.net/acanthus/)

RyderArt

08-03-2000, 08:45 PM

One trick in getting detail that I use...since I use predominately pastel pencils for detail...is I block the details in first using the pencils. Since I plan out the painting first (work mostly in the studio, very little plein air work) it is easy to know where my details are. Then I use sharpened soft pastels for the highlights, etc.
Seems to work for me...but I agree that using the pencils over soft pastels doesn't work.
I use Carbothello and Derwent pencils....as well as sticks in Rembrandt, Sennelier and Terry's handmade sticks.
Hope this helps.

Stephanie

Roan

08-03-2000, 09:01 PM

I use one of two methods, usually:

1) I use Rowney soft pastels for small areas and detail work. Because they're very soft and pretty thin, they go on easily over layers and it's relatively easy to find a pointed side to work with.

2) I usually use my pastels in pieces. I cut the paper with a knife and break off a piece. That's the one I use for large areas so I'm usually left with another half or so that has sharp edges.

Hugs!

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Mar sin leibh an-dràsda,

Roan

aspiring artist

08-03-2000, 10:22 PM

For getting good detail with pastels, either sticks or pencils, I've just recently discovered what a lot of pastelists have been raving about: Kitty Wallis sanded paper. It is everything they say it is, and more! It's white, so you get to tone it with either watercolor, oil & turpentine, or pastel + alcohol. There's still enough tooth left over after your toning/underpainting to carry on as usual. I don't think I can go back to Canson Mi Tientes now.....I'm too spoiled! The only drawback---> it's a tad bit expensive by comparison. But oh, so worth it!

sassybird

08-04-2000, 01:05 PM

I have mentioned this in another section, but I work pastels with a wet and dry brush. It cuts down on dust and allows me to get in detail and sharp lines with an angle brush.

Foxton

08-06-2000, 05:15 AM

Thanks everyone for your helpful tips. I'll give them all a try and see what works best for me. We have fine sanded pastel paper available in Australia, available in a great range of colours. It's terrific stuff and made by Art Spectrum.

rhoward

08-06-2000, 05:54 AM

The reason your strokes won't stick is because the pastel you are using is harder than the pastel lying underneath. The proper aproach to pastel painting is to use hard pastels (such as Nupastels) first and, when they no longer grab, switch to a softer pastel. Using hard pastels merely slips along the surface of soft pastel or incises into the softer pastel.

You can steam your pastel paintings, causing the gum to soften and then re-harden. This is done instead of using fixatif. It does not discolor the pastel and causes the pigment particles to realign and offer a coherent surface for subsequent layers of pastel.

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Cennini Catalogue http://studioproducts.com/quickcatalog/catalogframes.html

Pray

01-14-2001, 05:01 PM

Hi Sassybird - I've looked and looked for where your method is discussed but can't find it. I'm especially interested in what surface you're using. I want to incorporate water color into my pastel but get rippling from the water.

Thanks
Pat

gmc

01-14-2001, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by rhoward:

You can steam your pastel paintings, causing the gum to soften and then re-harden. This is done instead of using fixatif. It does not discolor the pastel and causes the pigment particles to realign and offer a coherent surface for subsequent layers of pastel.

RHoward...Exactly how do you do this process. I would like to try it. I dislike the look of pastel after you spray fixative. I no longer use it. But at times the pastel builds up to quickly and i would like to add more. Would your process help with that problem.gloria

Sandi

01-14-2001, 06:15 PM

It's an old goat secret. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com) and Art by Romello (http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/romey/index.html)

Sandi

01-14-2001, 06:21 PM

I see in the art store catalog a pastel that is heat set, not steam set or sprayed. Has anyone worked with these before?
If they can alter the pigment when they make them, I wonder if there is now a cover sheet to heat set on top of our regular pastels? What is the 'stuff' they are using in the mix?

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com) and Art by Romello (http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/romey/index.html)

gmc

01-14-2001, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Sandi:
It's an old goat secret. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

besides that i wonder if the steam wouldn't buckle or warp or even stain the paper?? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/confused.gif

bk7251

01-14-2001, 09:58 PM

For me, the beauty of pastel is that it lends itself to working broadly. The freshness and immediacy of the medium is its greatest asset. Rather than trying to figure out how to use pastels in a "tight" fashion, with a lot of fine detail, why not work in a way that is natural and easy to do with pastels. Take advantage of the nature of the material, rather than trying to work against it. If you feel you need a high level of detail in your work, you might want to consider other mediums.

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Barry Katz

gmc

01-15-2001, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by bk7251:
If you feel you need a high level of detail in your work, you might want to consider other mediums.

Barry, I totally agree. I enjoy the color and freedom. But, I have to admit when i do portrait work the tendency is to fine line the eyes with detail. I am an eye person. I wish i was expert enough to develop the eye on the first try, but its not there yet. So as a result the pastel builds quickly resulting in a tooth that will not accept any more color. I have destroyed many a sheet of canson because of the eye area. Do you know of this "steam process." It might be interesting to find out.

Roan

01-15-2001, 06:51 AM

Gloria,

You might want to try using Wallis paper instead of Canson. If you make a mistake on that, and I make TONS, you just brush it off. No worries about build up. No steaming. It's a little more expensive, but worth it when you consider that you don't have to start over or throw out the sheet you are already working on.

Just a thought.

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Roan
Nan dèanadh mo làmh mar a dh'iarradh mo shùil!
-- If my hand could do as my eye would desire!
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

gmc

01-15-2001, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Roan:
Gloria,

You might want to try using Wallis paper instead of Canson. If you make a mistake on that, and I make TONS, you just brush it off. No worries about build up. No steaming. It's a little more expensive, but worth it when you consider that you don't have to start over or throw out the sheet you are already working on.

Just a thought.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gifa great thought i will check it out. i use canson on the reverse side for a smoother effect. actually this is funny as i was just enjoying your site and checking prices etc. on pastels and paper. great site, Roan. I visit it frequently. Now to find where I can order Wallis paper. Is the paper smoother or more toothy? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

bk7251

01-15-2001, 10:06 AM

I use a white paper sold in pads by NY Central Art Supply called "Lana" paper. It has a slight tooth, and holds pastel nicely. I much prefer working on white than colored paper. If I get to the point where there is too much build-up to continue working, I use a very light spray of workable fixative, and try to spray only the areas I need to work on. That usually works fine. I never fix the top layer of pastel.

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Barry Katz

Roan

01-15-2001, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Sandi:
Canson is archivable.. sanded papers are questionable.

Actually, Sandi, Canson is definitely not archival. To be archival it has to be 100% cotton rag or 100% high alpha cellulose. Canson is only 67% cotton rag. The other 33% is cellulose fiber. Therefore it is only rated as acid free.

As for sanded, Ersta is not acid free nor pH neutral. Sabertooth is made on 100% cotton rag -- it is archival. Sennelier le Carte is pH neutral only, not archival. Wallis is sold as pH neutral -- not archival -- or 100% rag -- archival.

I'm still working on gathering the rest of the information on this stuffs :P

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Roan
Nan dèanadh mo làmh mar a dh'iarradh mo shùil!
-- If my hand could do as my eye would desire!
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

Sandi

01-15-2001, 02:28 PM

That's true, Roan. Ph balanced is neutral. Acid free is acid free.

The problem with even Wallis though, is that although it begins as Archival and Ph balanced, due to the aluminum stuff.. it ends up being the opposite once liquid is used. I have yet to hear of any Wallis paper users who don't first use a liquid 'wash' of some sort or another, due to it's rough/difficult to get to the bottom of things texture.

Which, in the end, makes Canson cheaper by all accounts, and just as archival. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif (except for black)

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com) and Art by Romello (http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/romey/index.html)

Roan

01-15-2001, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Sandi:
That's true, Roan. Ph balanced is neutral. Acid free is acid free.

The problem with even Wallis though, is that although it begins as Archival and Ph balanced, due to the aluminum stuff.. it ends up being the opposite once liquid is used.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/confused.gif
Boy, you lost me here :P
How does adding a wash of acrylic or watercolor paint or the use of turpenoids change its acidity? Does doing this change the acidity of watercolor papers? If it does, then all watercolors are not archival, regardless of the paper they are painted on.

I have yet to hear of any Wallis paper users who don't first use a liquid 'wash' of some sort or another, due to it's rough/difficult to get to the bottom of things texture.

Ah, that's not why a wash is applied. A wash is applied because Wallis paper is white. That's the only reason. It's nothing to do with texture or anything else, just color :P

Which, in the end, makes Canson cheaper by all accounts, and just as archival. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif (except for black)

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue, Sandi :P

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Roan
Nan dèanadh mo làmh mar a dh'iarradh mo shùil!
-- If my hand could do as my eye would desire!
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

Roan

01-15-2001, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by gloria777a:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gifa great thought i will check it out. i use canson on the reverse side for a smoother effect. actually this is funny as i was just enjoying your site and checking prices etc. on pastels and paper. great site, Roan. I visit it frequently. Now to find where I can order Wallis paper. Is the paper smoother or more toothy? http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

Glad you liked it! I'm just starting to work on the Wallis paper resource, actually. Another paper you might want to try is Art Spectrum Colourfix. I've not tried it but I've used the primer that coats it -- it's much finer than Wallis and can be reworked too. Might be a better place to start -- it's less expensive as well. Dakota has it for $5.95 a sheet -- as does Rochester.

Hrm, ASW Express has it on sale for $4.49 each, min 10 assorted colors www.aswexpress.com (http://www.aswexpress.com)

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Roan
Nan dèanadh mo làmh mar a dh'iarradh mo shùil!
-- If my hand could do as my eye would desire!
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

Sandi

01-16-2001, 12:32 AM

Degas steamed the backs of his with Goats milk. But a water kettle steaming on the stovetop is just fine.
Just be careful to do a light steam, just like you would the varnish, not letting it pile up in any one spot. The Colors will dampen, then dry 'fixed' to the paper. Only the bottom layers will darken somewhat. The paper usually does just fine.
Practice on some color charts or pastel flops, until you feel comfortable doing it.
Canson is archivable.. sanded papers are questionable. Besides, the less coats of pastel you use, the faster you will learn your color plays. Sanded papers take on an 'oil' painting look, with all their layers. Some artists really like that look with their style. Others prefer a more luminous "pastel' look with their style and stick with the canson types.

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com) and Art by Romello (http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/romey/index.html)

[This message has been edited by Sandi (edited January 15, 2001).]

jdk

01-16-2001, 01:33 PM

Gloria,

Steaming is good if you don't like fixatives. I use fixative and has no problem with it whatsoever. I don't know if it's the brand or whatever, but I don't get the "darkening" results that others talk about. I've also tried steaming, it darkens but once it dries, the color goes back to normal. The paper does curl a bit. However, I have stopped doing it when I started using sanded paper. It turned out that the sanded paper I am not using cannot take moisture at all and ended ruining two of my works. First it completely ruins the colors, second, when it becomes accidentally touched even with the lightest touch, the surface (not just the color) comes off. But I must say, the pastel is completely bound on the paper once it's dry. You can touch it and nothing comes off.

Juvie

Roan

01-18-2001, 01:08 PM

((((((Sandi)))))) :P

Originally posted by Sandi:
Thanks Juvi for such vital information, that others may not be aware of.
Sandpaper, including Wallis, is not moisture proof. It's moisture 'resistant' but not moisture proof.

I'll take this to mean that waterproof would be if you soaked the entire sheet and 'resistant' to be if you just wet the front. Then I'll agree :P

Roan, I didn't mean to 'argue' or anything, I was just stating my personal feelings about it, without thinking of others feelings. I'm honored to agree to disagree with you. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

ROFL! I was worried you'd think I was arguing with YOU! :P

Hugs, Sandi!

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Roan
Nan dèanadh mo làmh mar a dh'iarradh mo shùil!
-- If my hand could do as my eye would desire!
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) <-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

Sandi

01-18-2001, 05:22 PM

LOL, oh no no no, not at all. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif
((((((Roan))))))

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com) and Art by Romello (http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/romey/index.html)

Sandi

01-19-2001, 12:19 AM

Thanks Juvi for such vital information, that others may not be aware of.
Sandpaper, including Wallis, is not moisture proof. It's moisture 'resistant' but not moisture proof.
Roan, I didn't mean to 'argue' or anything, I was just stating my personal feelings about it, without thinking of others feelings. I'm honored to agree to disagree with you. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com) and Art by Romello (http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/romey/index.html)

LDianeJohnson

01-19-2001, 05:35 AM

On creating fine detail with pastel...
I recommend doing the first rendering of your subject large enough that the small areas are big enough to do fine detail within. Most people, particularly beginners draw their subject so small that it is difficult to get in to do detail even with a pastel pencil. Give yourself some room to work.

Next, save the best for last. Do the finest details last. Sometimes I get anxious to include the details first because that is where the fun is. I try to hold off till the very end for the highest highlights and darkest darks. Then, if there is a buildup of pastel in those areas, either whisk away some paint before adding the detail, or dampen the end of a pointed edge on a NuPastel or Senellier (or whatever I like) and make a direct mark on the surface, leaving the mark alone to stand. Doing this will also add sparkle to your painting since the surface is raised and refracts the light. You can also lightly...that's lightly spray with fixative, wait till it dries completely and make your detailing marks.
Diane

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2001 L. Diane Johnson Plein Air Workshops (http://www.LDianeJohnson.com/workshops)