Surfaces - Sanded pastel papers

[msue]

I've tried the sanded paper. I was advised t use some turp with my pastels on it, but I didn't see what the advantage was. It made some of the colors go dark. The sanded paper holds a lot of pastel. The piece in my pastel gallery called "Simple Life" was done on sanded paper and I loaded a lot of pigment into some of the areas. It does wear your pastels down quick, as you can imagine it is sand paper. The person who used turp all the time uses sand paper from the hardware store to paint on. I used commerical sanded pastel paper.
None of that really answers your question. Guess the bottom line is I will use it again some time.
http://artistnation.com/members/lofts/msue/

[This message has been edited by msue (edited April 07, 2000).]

[CrowsNest]

Hmmmmm...sandpaper from the hardware store sounds like an inexpensive route. Also it might be a way of experimenting before buying expensive sanded pastel paper...thanks for the tip!
Bryan

[amanda]

I agree, what a great tip, maybe I will try that one too. I would imagine that the one of the finest papers would be best as it wouldn't wear down the pastel so much.

[CrowsNest]

and what about blending? I use my fingers but I am afraid sanded paper would cause bleeding fingertips...ouch....maybe that was what the turpentine was used by msue's friend was for....maybe? Bryan

[CrowsNest]

and what about blending? I use my fingers but I am afraid sanded paper would cause bleeding fingertips...ouch....maybe that was what the turpentine was used by msue's friend was for....maybe? Bryan

[CrowsNest]

I was wanting to try the sanded pastel papers and was wondering if there were any techniques/applications I might need to be aware of? Any advice would be very helpful.
Bryan

[bruin70]

if you use "sandpaper type" textures, you'll go through all your pastels in about,,,,,,67 minutes.....milt

[oleCC]

As some of you may know, my daughter, GlendaArtist has a framing shop. She complains often of folks bringing in pastels done on sandpaper. She says the pastels just fall off - there is such a build up on the surface. Just thought you might want to know!
I am personally very new to this medium.
Carol

[CrowsNest]

I am hoping Sandyartist may share some insight on this topic...and how she keeps her pastels from falling off...etc...
Bryan

[aspiring artist]

Sandpaper from the hardware store might be okay for just experimenting on~~~but every pastel workshop instructor/professional artist I've known cautions against this, as the paper is not archival, and will eventually just deteriorate. Turpentine only accelerates the destruction of cheap sandpaper. If you want your pastel painting to stand the test of time, pay a bit more for the ones in reputable catalogues, and know you are getting good paper that will last. Who knows, it may be considered a Masterpiece some day!

[CrowsNest]

...and I think it would be hard to get a, lets say 16x20 sheet of sandpaper from the hardware store,...but just trying it out maybe the ticket....also has anyone had experiment in making your own sanded paper?
Bryan

[msue]

Well, actually I have. Now that you remind me. When I took a collage work shop we made some sanded paper. Most people brought regular sand, from the kid's sand box. I took colored sand (like you use for diorama's or crafts). Think we spread some matte medium on some watercolor paper then poured on the sand and let it dry. I used a few pieces of mine in a collage. Didn't try my pastels on it. I'll have to look through my papers and see if I have a piece left and try it.

BTW...the person who uses hardware sandpaper I wasn't recommending, I was just letting you know it had been done. I wouldn't have figured it to be archival.

[CrowsNest]

msue...that sounds interesting, I would love to see your collage that you did...is there any way you could post that...?
Bryan

[CrowsNest]

msue....I checked your website but wasnt able to tell if any of your collages used this technique......Bryan

[msue]

The piece that I used the homemade sand paper on was sold last October. However, the piece titled "May" has a direct application of sand in few spots. I put down the matte medium, added the sand, and after it was dry painted over it with watercolor. Unfortunately the photo posted is from a group I misunderstood instructions on and reduced the pixel size. I'll try posting here and see if it gives a better view.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/May.jpg

Well it didn't post any larger here. The areas that are orange with a greyish, greenish cast to them are sand.
[This message has been edited by msue (edited April 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by msue (edited April 10, 2000).]

[CrowsNest]

Msue...unfortunately the image is too small for me to see the areas you mentioned...but I like your piece overall..I guess it is on your website and I will check it out there.
Bryan

[CrowsNest]

I see what you mean msue.....the website pic is small too (darn)....well I thank you for your information....btw I am fond of your artwork and find it very enjoyable.
Bryan

[4vincent]

Sandpaper has its pros and cons. I remember years ago of reading of one who used trimite to work on, but I wouldn't because its hardware stuff and not permanent. German manufactured ersta is a kind most use as far as sandpaper, about 7/o grit. Albert Handell would use it my pre-dri mounting it to museum board, applying colors to tone, then using turp to blend these colors into a wash. After it dried, he had a toned surface to work into with pastels. I think he works with Wallis paper now. I've used Wallis, it is a very good reworkable surface, but pricy. Most of the time I make my own surfaces. In the past, I've tried pumice, silica, marble dust, but now I use white aluminum oxide applied with a method that I came up with but may be used by others. I would go into detail, but this is getting wordy enough. 4vincent

[Gisela]

4Vincent,
Please, tell us more!
I like Wallis and Windberg, both both are pricey. Is your method archival? I'd love to hear more about it.

Gisela

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http://www.artistnation.com/members/paris/gisela

[4vincent]

Ok, Here's my method: . In the past I've used pumice, silica, marble dust, and the like. I've tried different ways of application from mixing grit with gesso and/or glue and brushing it on to gessoing surface and sprinkling grit via a shaker onto the wet surface. I was never satisfied with the resulting surface; I was looking for a more uniform surface to work. These other ways produced brush strokes, irregular patterns in surface, etc.; now that's fine if it is what you're after, but I wasn't. Finally I found another grit, white aluminum oxide, which I thought less dusty in application. My method I came up with is to prepare the support (I've used gessoed gatorfoam panels, Stonehenge paper, watercolor paper) and after the final gessoing, while still wet, spray alum oxide into (embedding) the surface using a micro-etcher (kind of a mini sandblaster, looks like an airbrush). The results are uniform and in the sunlight have a sparkle to them, which I believe adds to the luminosity.(<note: I spray this outside, while it's less dusty, care should still be taken) 4vincent.

[4vincent]

Hmmm?! the rest of the reply did not come out...I just wanted to add that I spray this outside, although it is less dusty than pumice and the like, care should still be taken. As far as archival, the gesso makes the panels archival (I apply several coats) and the Stonehenge paper is 100% rag. 4vincent

[LarrySeiler]

Okay....where does one find white aluminum oxide??? Hardward stores....??? and, I suppose it goes without mentioning, but no doubt one should use care to wear a mask when applying?

thanks...

Larry

[4vincent]

Larry, After looking for awhile as to where to find the alumin oxide when I was out to make my surfaces, I located it at a company in Indiana. It's US Filter/Abrasives, 712 E. Ohio St., Fortville, In. (317) 485-5157. They're very helpful people there, I ended up using 250 grit, the finest they had. You might find finer elsewhere. Yes, needless to say, spray outdoors with a mask, although it's not as dusty as pumice or marble dust, it's still better to be careful. 4vincent.

[4vincent]

Sandi, I've tried that recipe before, it's similar to Frank Zucharelli's that was in,I believe American Artist years ago. It works well, I know a lot of artists who have used it, or pumice with acryllic mat medium. I liked the texture it gave, especially for landscapes. Lately, I've gone to a more uniform surface which works for me. I might add that the pumice mixture should be stirred when using, for it settles at the bottom of the jar pretty quickly. 4vincent

[LdyBiss]

Well hello to everyone.. this is my first post. I enjoyed reading this board and love all the wonderful tips. I just used my first pice of sand pastel paper while I was in Colorado visiting MichaleRH. I was at first a little put-off that my pastels did not move the way they had on min-tins, but I found as I built up the layers I was once again able to use the same approach I had in the past on pastel papers. I do not like using any fix at all and the sand-pastel paper is wonderful at holding the pigments. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Rod]

I found using the palm of your hand was better when rubbing in the pastels, but recently in chat was recommended to wear rubber gloves for safety reasons so the fine pastel dust doesn't enter the skin.
Rod

[LdyBiss]

Rod, I wonder if art-guard would work as I just do not like the feel of rubber at all, much less the smell of the stuff.

Not into rubber-gloves, LdyBiss

[sandyartist]

Sorry I haven't seen this post a little sooner..spending too much time working. I have run the gamut when it comes to pastel support, commercial or studio-made. The best I have found to date are Ersta(which is not archival), Wallis and the new Art Spectrum. Ersta comes only in the beige color and cannot be toned with water based tints, while the other 2 can. Wallis and A. Spectrum are archival, but only the Spectrum comes already toned. The purpose of toning the paper, especially one like Ersta is to NOT lose a lot of that expensive pastel on the sanded surface. If you tone the paper with the turp wash, you will not have to lay so much pigment on it to get the effect you want..it will also not migrate onto the mat and inner surface of the glass after framing. I have shipped pastels to most of the major shows and had no migration problem even after the gorillas in the UPS warehouse tossed them around. Fixative should be used..maybe halfway through the process, but never on the top layer as it darkens the colors and shows strokes in blended areas..Mot of the time, I use none at all. As for the industrial stuff in the hardware store..you may save money, but it is not archival, inconvenient in size choice ..your work deserves good support..value yourself. I have tried practically every way to make my own papers and have found them disappointing when it comes to uniformity of surface..nothing like getting a good piece going and then finding a small area that won't hold the pastel because the grit was not consistent! When you can buy at a reasonable price, good quality ready made papers, I see no reason to go to all that trouble..but could be, I'm lazy...personally I would reather spend that time painting and let the experts come up with the paper. Sandy

[blondheim12]

I reccommend a product called "pastelbord" It is archival , masonite with a ph balanced fine even grit on one side. Comes in four colors and various sizes. It is the best pastel surface I have ever used. It is perfect for plein air work because it is rigid and will stand on an easel.
Linda www.lindablondheim.com (http://www.lindablondheim.com)

[arteitaliana]

Hi, this is my first post.
I do a lot of pastels, it's my favourite medium.
I use almost always Ersta sanded paper. I find the beige color quite useful and don't mess around with toning it. I fill the area almost completely and apply the very soft Shmincke pastels quite heavily. I do not blend. I guess it all depend from your style. Mine is impressionistic and I don't worry about fine details....actually I try to avoid them. I have tried Wallis which I find too coarse and I don't like the white. Canson I have abandoned long ago. I did not like the dotty texture and was too flimsy. Great colors though.... I have also tried Pastelboard for a while. It is not easy to frame and it does not come in the shapes that I like. I like square and elongated rectangle ( very elongated sometimes. I never used Golden Pastel Ground ( I did by a jar but never used it) because I like to go straight into painting and never had patience with the preparation stuff....
My pastels are never larger that 12" x 17" because I like the fat stroke and in large pieces the stroke tends to be too small. Also large pastels are difficult to sell because I have found that the public will not spend a large amount of money on a pastel painting. They think that it will not last...they are wrong of course.
I spray the finished painting and I don't mind the darkening effect. Pastel colors are often too ...pastelly!! ( I never use black or brown or grey, only vine charcoal for initial very sketchy drawing and to indicate darks)
The amount of pigment I press into the paper is such that I have to tap the back before spraying and after spraying to make sure that nothing will fall on the mat once the piece is framed. I also leave a quarter or an inch spacing between the pastel and the mat so to provide a pocket for the eventual droppings.....

Sorry for the long first post....

Glad to be here!!
Ciao to all from sunny Vancouver!!

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Rita

[This message has been edited by Rita Monaco (edited August 12, 2000).]



[This message has been edited by Rita Monaco (edited August 12, 2000).]

[Foxton]

Someone told me the other day to use a foam roller when preparing your own sanded surfaces. This will eliminate brush marks. I have been using Art Spectrum sanded papers for a few months now and find they are terrific. I lay on the pastels pretty thick and haven't had any problems so far with the dust falling off inside the frame.
Yvonne

[arteitaliana]

Thanks for the warm welcome, Sandi.

I have not used Art Spectrum and can't wait to do so. It is not available in Vancouver, Canada, and I haven't seen it in Daniel Smith catalogue.
Shmincke pastels are so soft and crumbly that it's almost impossible to keep them from "spitting" ..... Can anybody tell me where to get Art Spectrum paper?? Thanks.

[VictoriaS]

Hello, Rita:

Dakotapastels.com carries Art Spectrum paper. How can I see your website? The www symbol under your post won't take me there.

[VictoriaS]

Rita: Today the link worked. Wow! Your work is beautiful! I assume that top one (next to "My Life") is a self-portrait?

[arteitaliana]

Thanks, Victoria.....Yes, the portrait on the first page is me.


[This message has been edited by Rita Monaco (edited August 15, 2000).]

[arteitaliana]

Thanks for the info, Victoria. The link underneat *should* take you to my page. I tried it and does work. Alternatively, any search engine will find the page for you when you type: Rita Monaco.

[This message has been edited by Rita Monaco (edited August 15, 2000).]

[Roan]

Originally posted by Rita Monaco:
. . . I have tried Wallis which I find too coarse and I don't like the white. . . .


Welcome to a fellow Canadian!

Rita, I just wanted to note to you that the Wallis paper, Sabretooth too, can take acrylic or watercolor washes. I buy mine white and then tone them the colors I want. This is easier, for me, than purchasing papers in different colors and never finding the color I want.

Hugs!


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Mar sin leibh an-dràsda,

Roan

[BillieD]

I think the use of turpintine is an option. Most of the times I've seen, or read of it being used, it was to tone the background,(laying in your tone with pastel, then applying the turp to give it a watercolor background effect). You cannot use water to do this as plain water would ruin the paper. However, I was reading in Pastel Journal, one artist mixes 50/50, water and rubbing alcohol to tone her background this way.

I haven't tried using the turps, just passing on what I've heard suggested. I like the effect I get, toning with the pastel dry, then blending with a tissue, but, then, here in West Texas, our landscapes tend to be mighty dry...

Billie Dawn

[LDianeJohnson]

Originally posted by CrowsNest:
I was wanting to try the sanded pastel papers and was wondering if there were any techniques/applications I might need to be aware of? Any advice would be very helpful.
Bryan

Bryan,

Sanded pastel papers generally are made with a wood-based paper which will disintegrate over a short time. They are created with glue and wood pulp.

I recommend either purchasing a prepared museum board with high tooth or making your own, if you like a high toothed surface.

Some sanded boards are nice, but you need to use a very soft pastel with them to maximize their benefit.

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L. Diane Johnson, NAPA, PSA
LDianeJohnson.com (http://www.LDianeJohnson.com)