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cameliaelcott92
08-16-2003, 07:54 PM
> I started a large painting with acrylic. But since I am used to the flexibility of oil, I could not get the result I want after so many layers of acrylic. Now, the question is: Can I finish up my painting using oils colors? I used to use acrylic underpainting before starting my oil paintings, but with my new project I already painted many layers of acrylics. I wish someone tells me if this will work.
> A fast reply is highly appreciated.
> Thanks
> Camelia Elcott
>

blkros
08-16-2003, 10:18 PM
Yes you can do this. Oil over acrylic is fine, but not the other way around.

DanaT
08-16-2003, 10:19 PM
Camelia,

Welcome to Wetcanvas.

I think the folks in Acrylics will be able to help you more. The Acrylic forum was created just for technical questions like yours. I'll ask the moderators to move the thread to the Acrylic forum so you can get an answer to your question.

paintfool
08-16-2003, 10:39 PM
Thanks Dana but actually i think that the folks in the oil forum would probably be the best bet for accurate info on this.

Cheryl

mame
08-16-2003, 10:43 PM
As bilk advised, yes you can.

You can sand down some top layers of the acrylic if you want to "smooth" things out - but a real hassle.

There's also a product called "Motsenbocker's Lift Off 5 paint remover" that can be used to soften and scrape off layers of acrylic. It's biodegradable and water based. I've used this on a number of occasions without ill effect. Wouldn't soak/remove too far down to the first canvas layers though just to be safe re chemical reaction with the canvas/gesso layers.

JamieWG
08-16-2003, 11:14 PM
There is an excellent artist named Patricia Powers who paints almost exclusively horses. Many of her paintings are oil over acrylic. You can see some of her paintings here, but I have to say, in person they are much more impressive than on a screen! She usually paints BIG! She specifies on the website what the media is for each painting.

http://www.greydun.com/powersart/ppartset1.html

Jamie

artbabe21
08-17-2003, 01:59 AM
It's my understanding that the acrylic can't be too thick or there will be problems ....I'd be concerned with many layers of acrylic:(
unless you did something like Mame suggested...:)

guillot
08-17-2003, 06:37 AM
NO, no no............Cathleen is right. Oils will adhere to a very thin coating of acrylics......but not thick acrylics. Eventually, you will have problems with peeling, layers cracking, and overall adheshion problems. Oils will only adhere to a very thin coating of acrylics, and even this is not recommended in time tested paintings.

Hope you will change your mind about your underpaintings. ;) Thin acrylics are fine, but not thick ones.

What DanaT and JamieWG....along with everyone else is suggesting is fine ONLY IF THE UNDERPAINTING is as thin, as in "THIN WASHES", and that is about as far as that goes. Acrylics are made of a different chemical makeup, more "plastic" if you will. The thicker they are, well the less oils will adhere to the surface. Will you eventually end up with delaminating problems.

THIS IS NOT A SAFE PRACTICE TO UNDERTAKE. !!!!!!!!

Tina

Luis Guerreiro
08-17-2003, 02:42 PM
Tina is right! It is not a safe practice to paint oils over thick acrylics.

Regards

Luis

cameliaelcott92
08-18-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Luis Guerreiro
Tina is right! It is not a safe practice to paint oils over thick acrylics.

Regards

Luis

Thank you all for the precious information. But can someone tell me how to accomplish that beautiful luster finish of oil in an acrylic painting? I tried to use medium gel but it is very cloggy and not easy to paint with. Should I finish the painting with high gloss? or is it the varnish that will do the job? And what about glazing? how do I glaze in acrylic to make to darks darker?:confused:

Luis Guerreiro
08-18-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by cameliaelcott92


Thank you all for the precious information. But can someone tell me how to accomplish that beautiful luster finish of oil in an acrylic painting? I tried to use medium gel but it is very cloggy and not easy to paint with. Should I finish the painting with high gloss? or is it the varnish that will do the job? And what about glazing? how do I glaze in acrylic to make to darks darker?:confused:

Sorry but... Are we talking oils technique or acrylics technique?!

Moderators?

Luis

guillot
08-18-2003, 08:17 PM
Hi camelia.........

Have you asked this question in the acrylics forum??? It would be better for you to post that particular question in the acrylics forum. They would better be able to tell you what mediums to use for that particular affect. I do know that there are many mediums that can be used with acrylics, but I do not use acrylics, nor do I know which one to tell you to use. I hope you can find your answers ;)

Luis!! Thank you for the backup ;) :angel:


Tina

paintfool
08-18-2003, 08:45 PM
This thread has made one jump already, from the Creativity Corner to the oil forum but if you'd like, Camelia, we can now move it to the Acrylic forum for you. Easily done, just say the word. :D Maybe it will be our first forum revolving thread. :D

Cheryl

Ron van den Boogaard
08-19-2003, 08:05 AM
All the documentation I checked and also checking with my supplier I found no evidence why oils shouldn't go on thick acrylics. Also commercially prepared canvas in the "universal" category is prepared with Mowilith (PVA) and acrylic based gesso, for the good variety even four layers of it, that sure does not constitute a "wash".
From a chemical point of view I can't see a point either. It has a bit of urban myth sound to it, unless someone can give me a reasonble explanation.

hblenkle
08-19-2003, 08:43 AM
There is a difference between acrylic gesso and acrylic paint. The gesso has material added to color the ground white or other color and a gritty absorbent material to hold the added paint layers. You can feel the difference rubbing a layer of gesso and then a layer of acrylic paint. A thin layer of acrylic paint was stated in previous replies because it left the tooth of the canvas to act as a mechanical bond. At least that is what I have been told, but some at WC have much more knowledge than I on the subject and I would not mind if one of the experts corrected my idea of the matter if I am mistaken.
Harold

guillot
08-19-2003, 08:51 AM
Yes, Acrylic paint is not the same as Acrylic gesso!!

David O
08-19-2003, 01:07 PM
Casein paint is a better kind of paint to use under oils, and it acts a lot like acrylic paint if you are using thin washes. It is really lean and dries hard, not flexible. Shiva is the only artist brand that I know of, but MilkPaint is nice, too.

Luis Guerreiro
08-19-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by guillot
Hi camelia......... (...) Luis!! Thank you for the backup ;) :angel:
Tina

No probs. ;)

Luis Guerreiro
08-19-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by paintfool
D Maybe it will be our first forum revolving thread. :D Cheryl

LOL :D

Luis Guerreiro
08-19-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by David O
Casein paint is a better kind of paint to use under oils, and it acts a lot like acrylic paint if you are using thin washes. It is really lean and dries hard, not flexible. Shiva is the only artist brand that I know of, but MilkPaint is nice, too.

Yes Casein is gorgeous, but don't use it to prime stratched canvas. It will crack badly, because it is too hard and brittle.

Luis Guerreiro
08-19-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Ron van den Boogaard
All the documentation I checked and also checking with my supplier I found no evidence why oils shouldn't go on thick acrylics. Also commercially prepared canvas in the "universal" category is prepared with Mowilith (PVA) and acrylic based gesso, for the good variety even four layers of it, that sure does not constitute a "wash".
From a chemical point of view I can't see a point either. It has a bit of urban myth sound to it, unless someone can give me a reasonble explanation.

Ron,

Acrylic paint is pigment ground in acrylic resin (polymer) of a given description. There are many different acrylic resin which vary from brand to brand.

Acrylic gesso or acrylic primer contains acrylic resin (100%), a pigment (usually Titanium) and plaster of paris, whiting, etc. All of these are suspended in the binder (acrylic resin).
I don't think the term "wash" is 100% adequate to describe the priming of a surface.
However, a caked surface by the effect of too many coats of gesso or very thick coats of gesso is not a good surface for oil painting, because acrylic gesso was not designed for thick coats or too many coats. As it happens, an acrylic gesso holds best in thin coats to generate a consistent isolating film that adheres and becomes almost "one" with the fabric. Thick gesso or "caked" gesso does not hold together in the same way, hence the notion stating it should be thin.
Other acrylic ground products exist for the purpose of a thick ground, for example Modelling Pastes. These were designed to hold together without flaking off or cracking, even in thick layers and can take oils without any problems.

Luis

Pilan
08-20-2003, 01:31 PM
Luis, thanks for all the information. this is great.

Welcome cameliaelcott92, you will find wc a very helpful place and a lot of neat artists.

I have painted oils over acrylic but a thin layer of acrylic. I had never asked about this acrylic undercoating but used my best judgement and applied a thin wash, I knew when acrylics dried it's easy to peel up on the palette. I did not want to run the risk of having my painting ruined. I guessed correctly :).

Pilan

cameliaelcott92
08-21-2003, 03:45 AM
Yes, Cheril, I think it is a good idea to move my question it to the acrylic corner. I am sure the folks out there will tell me what to do.
I would like to thank everyone who replied to my question.
clap:

hblenkle
08-21-2003, 02:58 PM
I started a new thread in which I asked Luis about Winsor & Newton Clear Gesso Base for Acrylic. I thought I would mention the product in this thread after all. The labeling states "Suitable for priming surfaces before painting in oils and alkyds as well as acrylics.", "to seal porous surfaces, dilute with up to 10% water and apply before first coat of primer or color", "mix with Finity Artists' Acrylic Colours.", and "to retain adequate tooth use maximum 1 part color to 4 parts.". I would think the gesso having a base of acrylic medium would stick to a acrylic underpainting and the tooth and absorbent additive of the clear gesso would hold oil paint much better than just acrylic paint. The gesso is white in the jar and dries clear. Hopefully Luis will spot this in one thread or the other and lend us his expertise on the matter. I did a test sample on watercolor paper and it is nice. I has tooth, but does not hide any underpainting or drawing.
Harold

paintfool
08-21-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by cameliaelcott92
Yes, Cheril, I think it is a good idea to move my question it to the acrylic corner. I am sure the folks out there will tell me what to do.
I would like to thank everyone who replied to my question.
clap:
No problem. :)

cameliaelcott92
08-21-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by paintfool

No problem. :)
I am glad to be in the acrylic forum now. Here is the situation as we speak. The painting is 24x36. I am using Maimeri acrylics for this project. I would like to feel comfortable with acrylics as I am with oil, but it is very hard to get that smooth feeling of oil on the canvas; it is also hard to get that beautiful luster as well. The brushes dry very fast, and to wet it with water the paint gets dull. I read about using mediums, and tried to mix medium gel with the colors, but something went wrong and it got cloggy. Also, I would like to know how to glaze with acrylic; is it water to use? or is there another medium? The only good thing about acrylic for me at this point is the fast drying time that allows me to work longer without waiting a day or two as in oils. I already painted many layers, so how do I accomplish a fresh looking and crisp paint when it is really dull and flat? I am sure the acrylic people have all the secrets. Thanks to all:confused:

hblenkle
08-21-2003, 08:35 PM
Acrylic paints dry flat just like oil paint . Oil paint just takes months. In both cases a varnish will restore the wet look. When wetting the acrylic paint on the palette, I use a misting spray bottle every 10 to 15 minutes to keep the paint from drying out. Don't over do it. A little water will work for thinning the paint for glazing. Note very little. Medium can work. It thins out the pigment load in the paint mixture. You may want to use a little water to thin the mixture for application. Sounds like you may need to control the amount of water in the brush. Use a paper towel to take out exess water like watercolorists do. When I took classes in acrylic painting we would do a still life in two hours. Working fast and getting a lot of practice in made working in the medium second nature. Others will have more advice. Enjoy the exploration in a new medium to you. Different people use different techniques. You will find what works for you.
Harold

arlene
08-22-2003, 12:53 AM
I use the liquitex medium viscosity acrylics and i use extender for jar colors. That gives me more time...but like you, i'm new at acrylics.

cameliaelcott92
08-23-2003, 01:41 AM
Thanks Harold. I will follow your advice. Any particular bran name you recommend?:cool:

mkillough
08-25-2003, 04:16 PM
I am new at painting, but I have read 27 books on painting, and every archived article on Wet Canvas. I decided to use acrylic because the books say it does not yellow and crack with age as oils can do... reference all the tiny age cracks in all the old masters paintings.
I have read that acrylics dry very fast, however there are a couple of colors that take a bit longer to dry. Some tubes have markings that reference drying time.
The reason you can't put acrylics over oils is that oil paint takes a very long time to dry, and the acrylic layer will smother it and the oil underneath will crack.
I use acrylics thinned with water as layers, or glazes. I have only done one painting, but when I was finished I mixed a medium of Rowney Acrylic Gloss Medium and a hint of a cool red then glazed over my entire canvas with this. The hint red gave my painting a tone down from looking so right off the shelf new, and the gloss medium gave the painting that oil painting gloss look.
But... First... I took my palette of colors and just painted on 8 1/2x11 canvas paper an idea of my large painting, useing some of each color that was used in my large painting...
then I tested this gloss and red tint mixture over this 8 1/2x11 canvas paper study. This way I was able to see that the mixture gave me the gloss I needed, and that the cool red I had added actually did what I wanted without changing my colors on the canvas; whites were still white, etc.

cameliaelcott92
08-25-2003, 07:41 PM
Shine to acrylic
Thanks very much for all the tips and hints, especially the one about glazing whith gloss medium and red tint. I think I will finish my painting with ultramarine bleu for the effect I want to accomplish. I always wondered about how to give that final glaze using just water, but now I will try you tip.

hblenkle
08-25-2003, 10:45 PM
A thin layer of acrylic varnish will give the wet look and be removable if the surface gets dirty. The varnish can be reapplied. With the varnish the painting can be framed like an oil painting without glass. Some like the glassless frame to avoid the glare of glass. Depending on the circumstances, like kids, the glass may be a good option. It is nice to have options.
Harold

mkillough
08-26-2003, 03:36 PM
I just found a site that is helping me a lot with my trying to use acrylics. It also has great articles on composition, color mixing, how-to's of all kinds. It has a few ads pop up but I ignore them because the info here is like owning all the art books from the library.

mkillough
08-27-2003, 03:33 AM
I can't believe I left the link out. Here it is...

http://painting.about.com/

cameliaelcott92
09-01-2003, 04:33 AM
hi guys,
I finally finished my project. Acrylic is not as difficult to use after all. I need your feed back. I chose a color scheme to suggest the night time, and galzed the entire painting dark to emphesize on the white building. I added gold leaf to the roof to direct the eyes to the focal point. I also used stained glass paricles for extra shine on the white color. It looks grand under the correct lighting. Also, the varnish did the trick. For those who do not know the difference, they can say it is oil painting. I do not mind starting another project in acrylic after all. The great reward is the timing; I finished my painting in just two weeks. I need your critiques and your feedback about everything in the painting. That will help me in the future.
Thanks to you all.
Camelia:D

cameliaelcott92
09-07-2003, 01:56 AM
I was hoping someone could give me some feedback about the painting I just finished following your advice, hints and tips.
Thanks:confused: