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Johannes Instructor
09-08-2012, 03:55 PM
Homework.

Do a painting in black and white, no color at all; do it either in sepia or black and white. Nothing big, something small, 11 by 14, or 12 by 16.

Do a painting, with a strong value arrangement, but that the objects within these recede, without compromising the value pattern.

Beware making the value shape too obvious by not making things recede, and be careful being too conscious making things recede by modifying the shapes too much such as to destroy your the integrity of your shapes.

See Sargent's painting in the following link as an example of shape integrity, and depth...http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Sep-2012/135220-Sargent_Homework.jpg

Colorix
09-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Did I hear things, or did Ken offer an alternative homework? Something along the lines of improving the work of one of the artists he showed, but only as bw, not colour?

Amandine
09-08-2012, 04:56 PM
Did I hear things, or did Ken offer an alternative homework? Something along the lines of improving the work of one of the artists he showed, but only as bw, not colour?
Heard the same Charlie.

Amandine
09-08-2012, 05:16 PM
Sorry, Jo and Ken but I won't have time to do a new painting for the homework. So I took something I did recently and turned it in B & W. I think you can easily see there are 3 rows of trees.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Sep-2012/661062-homework_ken.jpg

Pinklady219
09-08-2012, 10:46 PM
Sheesh I don't know if I'm going to get this homework right. Aren't we to show that the same value in the painting can be close as well as in the distance?

lorimccall
09-09-2012, 09:03 AM
I enjoyed the class. This painting is done from memory and I tried to design it the way you described. My biggest challenge is looking at scene when I'm plein air painting and getting my shapes arranged before I start to put in my color. I often don't notice all the mistakes until I've looked at the painting a week later...

nougat
09-09-2012, 11:29 AM
Sheesh I don't know if I'm going to get this homework right. Aren't we to show that the same value in the painting can be close as well as in the distance?


i KNOW i'm not.....:(

Jacdesusbielle
09-09-2012, 01:22 PM
Sorry. I don't know how to post on WC ..... So I send my drawing to Ken by email.

Rosemarie
09-09-2012, 01:24 PM
here is info on how to upload
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=886612

Jacdesusbielle
09-09-2012, 01:32 PM
Thanks Rosemarie !

Rosemarie
09-09-2012, 01:35 PM
You are welcome!

pamshowcase
09-10-2012, 10:38 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2012/174457-P9100107.JPG http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2012/174457-P9100108.JPG
I chose Winslow Homer's The Lobster Pot from the WC Ref Library and did a watercolor using Paynes Grey. this was tricky and of course I'd change the shoreline (lighter) but I will forever think about this nugget.
Thanks, Ken

CaKatt
09-10-2012, 01:21 PM
If I am understanding correctly the homework is to submit a painting of good composition (stressing melodic lines and abstract shapes) yet also showing depth in the abstract value shapes without destroying the shapes.
Wow. :eek: Definitely a mouthful and a new concept for me.
I pulled up a fairly recent painting, desaturated it to view in B&W and saw it in a whole new light. :lol: Made a few photo editing 'improvements' (I hope) and humbly submit it for your critique. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2012/197736-HmwkWk1BW.jpg I've never used the photo editing tools to 'paint' with and my efforts are somewhat clumsy. I really wanted to do more but seemed to be making things worse rather than better.

msparker
09-10-2012, 05:54 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2012/100152-DSCF0309.JPG Ken I hope this upload works, it was too large and it was resized. I don't see it here. Hope you do a correct sample of what we are to do. after everyone has submitted. this is my interpertation of what you wanted, It is a little sloppy I mixed my grays with a fast dry med and let them set over night.. oops. I will try better next time. I loved your lecture keep up the good work. Margene

chalet_dor
09-11-2012, 01:20 AM
Hello Ken

I am wondering if this is an example of what you were teaching. Does this show depth, advancing and receding in this composition?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Sep-2012/224962-dors_example.jpg

If I have it all wrong, it won't suprise me.....LOL dor:))

msparker
09-11-2012, 06:00 AM
ok I was confused did not understand. looking at other posts, I will try to figure this out, thanks for your lecture. I enjoyed it , not sure I absorbed it.

Pinklady219
09-11-2012, 07:07 AM
Homework.

Do a painting in black and white, no color at all; do it either in sepia or black and white. Nothing big, something small, 11 by 14, or 12 by 16.
Do a painting, with a strong value arrangement, but that the objects within these recede, without compromising the value pattern.
Beware making the value shape too obvious by not making things recede, and be careful being too conscious making things recede by modifying the shapes too much such as to destroy your the integrity of your shapes.


I believe this picture is a representation of Johannes' explanation of the homework. (I'm hoping I got this right):crossfingers:

sylvia
09-11-2012, 07:21 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Sep-2012/265-keep_out.jpg

I think this painting recedes into light and dark patterns but I am still not sure if this is what you mean. looking forward to gaining a better understanding from you.

nougat
09-11-2012, 08:29 AM
ok I was confused did not understand. looking at other posts, I will try to figure this out, thanks for your lecture. I enjoyed it , not sure I absorbed it.

:) me too :)

pjbenson
09-11-2012, 06:22 PM
Ken, thanks for the great lecture. I didn't do a painting for the homework, but rather looked through pictures of previous paintings to find one that would fit the homework. And I have found a definite lack of large dark, abstract shapes in my paintings. I am taking these classes from you and Johannes to learn more about composition (about which I seem to have a mental block) and to figure out why my paintings are not doing well in shows. So it was shocking, but enlightening to see there were no big dark shapes. (they look better in color). I have uploaded two, first is a plein air in oil and second is studio work in watercolor. Please, any critique you have time for will be much appreciated.

Sallyabc
09-11-2012, 10:18 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Sep-2012/599812-BW_fence_at_farm..jpg
I painted pictures of our holidays on a suitcase a few years ago before my studies with Johannes. This is our farm in the winter. It acrylic black and white.

msparker
09-12-2012, 12:37 AM
[quote=msparker, I think I have it figured out now will post later

msparker
09-12-2012, 12:43 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2012/100152-DSCF0309.JPG Ken I hope this upload works, it was too large and it was resized. I don't see it here. Hope you do a correct sample of what we are to do. after everyone has submitted. this is my interpertation of what you wanted, It is a little sloppy I mixed my grays with a fast dry med and let them set over night.. oops. I will try better next time. I loved your lecture keep up the good work. Margene I now understand what you meant, I think but I can't delete this sorry. Iwill try to get another sample done by Sat. sorry to wast your time.

nougat
09-12-2012, 01:11 AM
here's my homework
watercolour - i dunno....

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/15364-sepiapoppies.jpg

Sgourlayart
09-12-2012, 09:45 AM
Here are two of my paintings converted to black and white, that I feel show strong value patterns and good recession. Neither has very strong color to begin with but more grays. I hope this is what was asked for in the homework. Stu

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/175408-Early_Spring_RainBW.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/175408-Nicasio_Land_CompanyBW.jpg

susanc
09-12-2012, 10:56 AM
I feel enormously silly posting this image after all these great paintings! But for me, this is as good as it's going to get...

This would have been far easier to solve if I'd cut the top 2 birds from the design (I think it's easier to tackle this problem with an arrangement that spreads mostly from "left to right" than from "front to back" because of atmospheric perspective, of course! ) but I decided to push myself to see if I could pull it off. I was concerned that the very top bird might be too dark in value to preserve the integrity of the light value group overall. I painted a dark value around its head and that seemed to help "lighten" it a bit by the contrast...I probably should have brought the dark area down even further around that bird to help more.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/1697-img391.jpg

valh
09-12-2012, 02:42 PM
Ken, I hope this is what you were after for our week 1 homework.
Acrylic, 9.5 x 7.5 inches on canvas paper. Thanks for a great lecture!
Looking forward to Saturdays lesson.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/40174-aValsWk1SecretsofMastersHWork.JPG

chodi
09-12-2012, 04:53 PM
My homework for week 1.
Black and white version from original 12 x16 oil on canvas. Hoping I understood what was asked as homework but I was short on time for painting something new. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/990932-100-0052_IMG_-_Copie.JPG

Linda Reyes1959
09-13-2012, 08:57 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Sep-2012/978726-005.JPG Homework done in black and white pan pastels.

susanc
09-13-2012, 12:06 PM
This painting is by Carl Rungius.

I did have to monkey with it a bit. One goat has a shadow across its neck, which throws off the value of the goat behind it by the contrast, so I made the goat behind it a tiny bit darker than I would have had to do otherwise. So are the 2 most distant goats too dark for a light value unit?

I noticed that even part of the glacier has a couple of different values, but since the values are so close, it holds together as a shape.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Sep-2012/1697-goats.jpg

nougat
09-13-2012, 01:21 PM
susan - i think your seagulls fill the brief perfectly - and your tweaking of carl rungius's goats is just right.

beart
09-13-2012, 02:09 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Sep-2012/88528-Homework_Ken_1.jpg
I really don't know if I did this right as it was my first time doing a black and white. I do think doing it made me more aware of values.:)

chalet_dor
09-14-2012, 01:34 AM
Sure have thought long and hard on this. Eager for Saturday's class Ken. . .

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Sep-2012/224962-Dors_Home_Work_Example_2.jpg
This is the best I could do............:o

Pinklady219
09-14-2012, 03:36 PM
I'm thinking practice makes (near to) perfect. Here is another that I painted and actually not knowing if this is what I'm supposed to be doing. By the time I begin to think about it and then look at other people's submissions, I'm confused again. :(

paintncook
09-14-2012, 11:56 PM
Dor,
I haven't signed up for this class because I can't attend the classes, but from what I've been reading and gather from comments and statements made in these threads, I think you've nailed it here with yours. Did you paint that one? If so, good work!!
Kathy

chalet_dor
09-15-2012, 12:18 AM
Thank you Kathy

I wish I could paint that well that fast! I used Adobe Photo Shop 7.

Sorry you won't be in class. I can't wait! dor : ))

chalet_dor
09-15-2012, 12:18 AM
deleted

colortone3
09-15-2012, 01:35 AM
This painting was originally in color but I altered in Photoshop. In Photoshop the values appear lighter then I see it here. Any help appreciated.

Colorix
09-15-2012, 09:43 AM
Probably too late, and I didn't bother with the clones or melodic lines, but here's a super-quickie in pastels:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Sep-2012/117343-goats-KV-class.jpg

And an original Monet (top) and the "improved" painting (below):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Sep-2012/117343-Monet-and-improved.jpg

Rosemarie
09-15-2012, 10:07 AM
Hi Charlie!
Lovely goats. It is just as I understood the homework. I haven't done any though because I am struggling with a paint along in pastels. ;)

NorthCarolinaStudent
09-15-2012, 10:19 AM
Too many appointments this week. This is an old painting rendered in dark greens and white changed to black and white. It's an abstract really. -- Elisabeth Cline
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Sep-2012/774972-WEBabstractlandscape.jpg

Colorix
09-15-2012, 12:22 PM
Rosemarie, thank you, I'm delighted you can see it is indeed goats! I thought they were more like dalahästar... (Swedish carved painted horse) :-D

Yes, time is a rare commodity these days.

Rosemarie
09-15-2012, 12:25 PM
Rosemarie, thank you, I'm delighted you can see it is indeed goats! I thought they were more like dalahästar... (Swedish carved painted horse) :-D

Yes, time is a rare commodity these days.
I don't know if others can see it but I have a trained vets eye!

nougat
09-15-2012, 02:55 PM
:)
they are obviously goats!!! :)

nougat
09-15-2012, 03:45 PM
pity ken didn't comment on more/all of our homework...

Ken Instructor
09-15-2012, 04:07 PM
For homework, please do a painting where you show depth primarily through color, instead of value. Meaning, just because the painting is flat, valuewise, does not mean it will turn up to be so in your color painting. The fewer values the better, but the ones that you have, design them well and strongly; then use color primarily for all the rest.

Hint: The Impressionists painted most of their pieces in a mid tone. Why would that be?

Do not get bugged down if you do not get this concept. I am not finished with it, I will talk about it much more the next class. It is not easy, I know, believe me. I took me years to get the aha moment, only difference is that I did not have myself to explain it to me.

As long as you got the value exercise well understood, I think I would feel accomplished as a teacher. The difference with color, is that you could ignore using slight value contrasts, and use slight temperature shifts instead for separating planes.

The less value, the more color, and the less color, the more value.

You can try doing a tonalist painting with limited color and more value, if you like.

Just play with it.

One more thing, I am in my last stages of wearing braces, I have a TMJ problem that I needed adjusted, and so the braces change my way of pronouncing some words because my teeth are moving from one day to the other!!! So forgive me if some words do not come out clear. I try to speak slower, but I am told it is the amount of information that makes people ask me to slow down. I can't help it sometimes, I run out of time. So I think of two alternatives: speak slowly and get less info in, or, speak faster, get it on record for the download so you can go back to it, but get MORE INFO in. Your pick.

IT reminds me when I watch David Leffel videos; he speaks so slowly that I watch his videos at quarter speed, faster!!!

Anyway, send me any questions as to the homework, you can copy old master paintings, or do your own, but I need to see design, and the ability for you to show me one thing receding from the other, through color. Watch out for stacking, cloning, or just baaaaaaaaddd shapes.

Thanks,
Ken

Ken Instructor
09-15-2012, 04:31 PM
About the homework, I tend to talk about the most exemplar cases, the cases that explain the problem the most. A lot of submissions did not have enough for me to extrapolate on. Some of them missed the point; I can only talk so much about the homework ( I think I gave it a good half hour), because then I run out of time. I am not sure if people want more homework than lecture, or viceversa, but I think the concept was explained. I use the homework as examples to explain the concept, not so much individual attention. I need to see the general trends of misunderstanding so I know where you guys could get stuck. It is hard to anticipate where, so the homework shows me where people tend to get stuck.

wink wink...

beart
09-15-2012, 04:31 PM
pity ken didn't comment on more/all of our homework... I agree with you Nougat, I took it as mine was not good enough but looking through here I saw some impressive homework as I thought there would be notes on the ones he didn't use. I think we learn through the others and our mistakes.

chalet_dor
09-15-2012, 06:22 PM
I would have understood better, if he took each submitted home work and said something like this one missed the point completely, this one missed it also........blah blah blah very quickly because for those of us that did not get it we each need to be told rather than wondering please...........dor:))

Jacdesusbielle
09-15-2012, 06:26 PM
Thank you Ken for another great class. I understood better the notion of value masses, at least I think. You explained very well and very clearly (don't worry about these braces of yours, I don't think anybody notice a thing without you mentioning) Bravo for your demo. Very interesting way of rearranging Monet's painting and I loved the very good job you did. Let's see if I have time this week to do the homework using color or/and value. I hope so !

spudsmom
09-15-2012, 07:44 PM
Great class today Ken. i have a better understanding of the value masses and differentiating the shades as they recede. Whether or not I can put that into practice is another story...but with knowledge and practice someday...

Thinking about painting my photo of waterlilies from my South Africa travels earlier this year for this week's homework. I've been wanting to paint them for about six months... Hope I have time...new job kind of gets in the way of my painting ;-)

Sherri

Ken Instructor
09-15-2012, 09:25 PM
I have been getting complaints about me not revising the homework enough, I thought I did, because any more would just be over emphasizing the same point, plus I had to go on with the Monet and Sargent paintings that still had the same point to make. Some homework submissions had no sign of any of the lesson being applied. I could not just do the whole thing from scratch. I really thought, honestly, that I stated the point either through the homework, or at least through all those slides.

I do have to apologize to you Dor, I thought I included your slide in the program, but I knew there was one missing, and I got upset because yours had a very good lesson in it, the one with the car. I sent these to Johannes because we do this through his mega computer, and for some reason, your image stayed behind. I was thinking all week about your case. So here it goes, thanks for reminding me. You are gonna get a personal critique on your homework.

Dragging the second car to the bottom just beneath the original one was indeed a clever move to get your shape, however, though it is technically a shape, it feels too obvious, I would have moved one more to the left or right, or at least not make the connection that obvious, there can be slight disconnects between the masses, as long as the eye connects them from across the the room. Now, the light in the immediate foreground, get rid of it, put it all in the shade so that it connects better with the cars. Do not forget to put the light on the side of the car, the one closest to you, because after all, it is in the light. I do see the post on the right connecting with the car and the distant car. Your moves were clever. Edit the pic again and post it and we will work on it. I am giving this critique through my visual memory of the painting, I cannot seem to find it. wink wink...

Susan, I think it was you who sent me the Rungius painting, thanks for that, it also gave me a lot with which to teach with.

REminder, I think this is my first or second webinar depending if you count the ones I did with Johannes. I am throwing alot of stuff out there, so that you get the hang of who I am and what I know and how and what I can teach. After this I will ask you all to submit proposals as to what you want retaught, unless you want to move on to different areas. I am an independent artist from Johannes and know things that are not relevant to his style or background, not that I know more or less, but we can only know what is relevant to OUR vision, OUR craft; each artist is a completely different world in their head. I have plenty of tricks up my sleeve. Trust me. So, perhaps I can give another webinar just on the value lessons alone, or with color, it depends on you guys. We all have our own rhythm, and so I have to get used to all of you guys and plan accordingly.
Please bear with me, I am getting used to this process online, and so as it is I am learning and working all the bugs out.

Have a good weekend... not seeing any homework guys....:wave:

Good luck,

Ken

Artz54
09-15-2012, 10:58 PM
Ken, today's class has helped me better understand value/mass. I've been looking at things in a "whole new light." Thank you.

Pinklady219
09-15-2012, 11:02 PM
You are a sweetheart Ken. I am retired and I do not learn as quickly as I used to. This reminds me of a bloodhound sniffing around the hole and knowing there's a rabbit in there, but he just can't get to it. It will "click" just like algebra class years ago. One day it clicked and I became a mathematical genius (wait, I just fell on the floor laughing). :lol:
I am learning in little baby steps right now. Hopefully in a few days (huh?) I'll knock your socks off with my understanding of your fine teaching. Carol :wink2:

nougat
09-16-2012, 12:03 AM
"Some homework submissions had no sign of any of the lesson being applied"

so i guess mine was one of those...lol..

thank you for the class...tho it seems most of it is going over my head. :)

nougat
09-16-2012, 12:08 AM
i would like to suggest that you put homework 2 in a NEW thread.

nougat
09-16-2012, 12:15 AM
don't worry about the braces...noone would've noticed if you hadn't mentioned it. your speech is very clear.
you do speak fast but that is just your need to get it all said and your enthusiasm. as you point out we can listen slowly with the download. :)

you're doing great ken :)

chalet_dor
09-16-2012, 12:47 AM
You are gonna get a personal critique on your homework.

Dragging the second car to the bottom just beneath the original one was indeed a clever move to get your shape, however, though it is technically a shape, it feels too obvious, I would have moved one more to the left or right, or at least not make the connection that obvious, there can be slight disconnects between the masses, as long as the eye connects them from across the the room. Now, the light in the immediate foreground, get rid of it, put it all in the shade so that it connects better with the cars. Do not forget to put the light on the side of the car, the one closest to you, because after all, it is in the light. I do see the post on the right connecting with the car and the distant car. Your moves were clever. Edit the pic again and post it and we will work on it. I am giving this critique through my visual memory of the painting, I cannot seem to find it. wink wink..... . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ken

Thank you very much Ken. Now I will see what I can do with the help you have given me! I am crossing my fingers that I will have learned something when I tackel it again! Good night..........: )):crossfingers:

chalet_dor
09-16-2012, 03:41 AM
Hi Ken
I could not sleep! So here is my third and final try on homework week 1

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/224962-Dors__third__try.jpg
Now I really am going to bed...........: ))

mickisew
09-16-2012, 11:10 AM
Ken: Everyone dances to their own music. You must "own" your webinars and conduct them in your style. It is evident that you are well prepared and open to questions and discussion. I am enjoying and learning during this session and look forward to more webinars in the future. Maybe we could do a paint-along with the Masters - an idea. In any event, relax and enjoy the ride - you are doing an excellent job - instruction and demo. Micki

spudsmom
09-16-2012, 11:36 AM
Ken: Everyone dances to their own music. You must "own" your webinars and conduct them in your style. It is evident that you are well prepared and open to questions and discussion. I am enjoying and learning during this session and look forward to more webinars in the future. Maybe we could do a paint-along with the Masters - an idea. In any event, relax and enjoy the ride - you are doing an excellent job - instruction and demo. Micki


I second this Micki!!

Keep up the great work Ken!

Sherri
:clap:

Sgourlayart
09-16-2012, 11:37 AM
Ken: Everyone dances to their own music. You must "own" your webinars and conduct them in your style. It is evident that you are well prepared and open to questions and discussion. I am enjoying and learning during this session and look forward to more webinars in the future. Maybe we could do a paint-along with the Masters - an idea. In any event, relax and enjoy the ride - you are doing an excellent job - instruction and demo. MickiDitto from me. Ken, fabulous presentation and demo. You are walking in your father's footsteps but enlarging the footprint! Keep it up! I also want to echo Rosemarie's posting in the other thread for this course where she said: "Thank you Ken for the second class! To learn how values and colours work in paintings is fantastic. It is the icing on Johannes' cake. I now understand why I both like and dislike the Monet paintings. I prefer more value contrast than some of his paintings have." Stu

Jacdesusbielle
09-16-2012, 12:53 PM
I agree with Micky and Stu in all points. I realised I like Monet but not that much and I now understand why. I really liked Ken's interpretation, rather true to the original painting but more neat and precise and value contrasted. He knows a lot and is so interesting but it takes a while - for me at least - to digest everything. Have to think about it for some time ..... Would not miss a class !

jmcedeno
09-16-2012, 01:08 PM
Ken, thank you for a wonderful class. If I may, I'd like to suggest a change of format for future classes: I think (personally) that the lectures are more important than the homework, each lecture should be complemented with a graphic demonstration (Photoshop) as you go along this way is much easier for Us to understand the concept. So, the first two Saturdays could be the lecture only and in the third one to review the homework with Photoshop manipulation of each entry, thus this way there will be sufficient time to analyze each submission. This suggestion does not mean a critique of your teaching method it is only an idea, and further more you should charge $19.99 rather than $9.99 because of the amount of time and effort that you and your father put in preparing this program.

mickisew
09-16-2012, 01:59 PM
IMO the homework is not just an exercise for students but a gauge for the instructor to see if the concept is being understood. Imagine the amount of time it would take to individually comment on each submission if 200 students submitted homework when analyzing a few brings the point home.

valh
09-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Very well put Dor, I agree totally with your statement.
Thanks for stating it.

I would have understood better, if he took each submitted home work and said something like this one missed the point completely, this one missed it also........blah blah blah very quickly because for those of us that did not get it we each need to be told rather than wondering please...........dor:))

pamshowcase
09-16-2012, 02:47 PM
My Reference is Monet's Cliff Walk At Pourville
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/174457-Capturemonet_Cliff_Walk_AT_2.jpg
I want to unstack the clouds and strengthen the mass of the cliff.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/174457-P9160109.JPG
WAY too palehttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/174457-P9160110.JPG
Uh Oh, need to connect darks deepen colors in grasses
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/174457-P9160111.JPG
OK, note to self...learn to use photoshop.....get out acrylics!

Colorix
09-16-2012, 02:55 PM
I second Micki too!

Ken does a beautiful job sharing his considerable knowledge. Personally, I really like the tons-of-theory format -- I signed up for the lectures. I knew that was his style, from the webinars he'd given in Johannes's series, and because of his style I signed up the moment I got the email.

Sgourlayart
09-16-2012, 03:05 PM
IMO the homework is not just an exercise for students but a gauge for the instructor to see if the concept is being understood. Imagine the amount of time it would take to individually comment on each submission if 200 students submitted homework when analyzing a few brings the point home.I agree completely Miciki! The homework gives the instructor the necessary feedback for the next lecture; if the point the instructor is trying to make is not grasped by some of the students, it should be valuable for all the students when the instructor explains the concept once again using a different approach. We all learn differently and at a different pace. If the instructor picks the appropriate homework submissions to make teaching points from, all the students should be able to better grasp the point. The triple combination of lecture, homework review and demonstration is, in my opinion also, the best way to teach. Please keep up what you are doing, Ken! Stu

HazelP
09-16-2012, 03:35 PM
I agree completely Miciki! The homework gives the instructor the necessary feedback for the next lecture; if the point the instructor is trying to make is not grasped by some of the students, it should be valuable for all the students when the instructor explains the concept once again using a different approach. We all learn differently and at a different pace. If the instructor picks the appropriate homework submissions to make teaching points from, all the students should be able to better grasp the point. The triple combination of lecture, homework review and demonstration is, in my opinion also, the best way to teach. Please keep up what you are doing, Ken! Stu

I would totally agree. I was still rather hazy after the first class but by the second one I am starting to understand:clap: Am looking forward very much to the next one and will definitley be going over them again and again until my slow old brain picks up on all these wonderful concepts!!!!

chalet_dor
09-16-2012, 03:41 PM
Ken, I cannot paint, but I am working on it! However I love being in school. I look forward to many more Webinars and lectures from you. You are stimulating my brain. I am searching the internet examining the Old Masters Painting for the first time in my life. I am learning and I thank you so much! Smiles to you :)

"COLOR IS MY DAY-LONG OBSESSION, JOY, AND TORMENT." CLAUDE MONET

jillmc3
09-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Ken, i just want to add my two cents; I love the classes and am learning so much listening to your lectures. You have inherited your father's gift for teaching!

chalet_dor
09-16-2012, 05:51 PM
Ken, thank you for a wonderful class. If I may, I'd like to suggest a change of format for future classes: I think (personally) that the lectures are more important than the homework, each lecture should be complemented with a graphic demonstration (Photoshop) as you go along this way is much easier for Us to understand the concept. So, the first two Saturdays could be the lecture only and in the third one to review the homework with Photoshop manipulation of each entry, thus this way there will be sufficient time to analyze each submission. This suggestion does not mean a critique of your teaching method it is only an idea, and further more you should charge $19.99 rather than $9.99 because of the amount of time and effort that you and your father put in preparing this program.

I totally agree with everything Jmcedeno has said and you are worth much more. . . I will be taking your classes.
dor:))

“Creativity is contagious. Pass it on.” — Albert Einstein

Ken Instructor
09-16-2012, 10:37 PM
Ken, i just want to add my two cents; I love the classes and am learning so much listening to your lectures. You have inherited your father's gift for teaching!

Thanks, I appreciate the support.

debwk
09-16-2012, 10:40 PM
Ken....great classes. I hope you keep teaching, I'll sign up for more classes. The concepts are hard to absorb in such little time, but think i'm getting it. Thanks

Ken Instructor
09-17-2012, 12:03 AM
Answers to everyone’s comments….

You are a sweetheart Ken. I am retired and I do not learn as quickly as I used to. This reminds me of a bloodhound sniffing around the hole and knowing there's a rabbit in there, but he just can't get to it. It will "click" just like algebra class years ago. One day it clicked and I became a mathematical genius (wait, I just fell on the floor laughing). file:///C:\Users\Joe\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif
I am learning in little baby steps right now. Hopefully in a few days (huh?) I'll knock your socks off with my understanding of your fine teaching. Carol
This is how it is with all art, it has to suddenly click. It just takes a long time to get it to click.

….don't worry about the braces...noone would've noticed if you hadn't mentioned it. your speech is very clear.
you do speak fast but that is just your need to get it all said and your enthusiasm. as you point out we can listen slowly with the download.

There is a lot of truth to this, I need to get said what needs to be said. So far I have covered just half of what I was intending to say, but I guess it is that I cannot plan everything when it comes to live classes.
I get mixed reviews, some people say I speak too fast, then I realize the people who say this are foreign, which made me think prior to that that I have some sort of speech impediment. Then I say it is the amount of info that is too much, and some people say it is just perfect, because they are used to fast speech and complex ideas. I am stumped!

Dor, on your homework

The car nearest to you should have a cast shadow, no? Great opportunity to connect the mass with the pole to the right. The light underneath it, does not work, darken it, it does not make sense to suddenly have such a light value there. The foreground in the shade, worked. I am anticipating problems with the dark values of the tires, but I have to see what happens when you make the changes I suggested…


I encourage you all to think of my as an independent artist and teacher, and that I am not an echoing of Johannes’ knowledge. I have a lot up my sleeve due to my own personal travels and study from artists and styles Johannes was never really into or interested in. Do not think that my webinars will be a repetition of his. Not at all. I did contribute to some of the intellectual infrastructure found in some of the webinars, behind the scenes aside from the brief lectures I gave, but by all means you will learn new things with me; I need his help with the handling of the software and answering the questions; he was never really into art history, and the problems I discuss on the webinars are ones that have bugged me all my painting life. It is not that I know more or less, but I teach what is relevant to my view of things, of what I think good art is. He has his own, many others have their own. It is not about who knows more, it is about who masters his/her own craft.
I appreciate everyone’s support, it means a lot to me.

Ken, thank you for a wonderful class. If I may, I'd like to suggest a change of format for future classes: I think (personally) that the lectures are more important than the homework, each lecture should be complemented with a graphic demonstration (Photoshop) as you go along this way is much easier for Us to understand the concept. So, the first two Saturdays could be the lecture only and in the third one to review the homework with Photoshop manipulation of each entry, thus this way there will be sufficient time to analyze each submission. This suggestion does not mean a critique of your teaching method it is only an idea, and further more you should charge $19.99 rather than $9.99 because of the amount of time and effort that you and your father put in preparing this program.


I think the pricing is up to the head office. And funny, people complain I do not check enough of the homework. I will try to answer the homework submissions here, and check the ones on the webinar that can go hand in hand with the rest of the paintings, and so that my webinar flows. Some homework submissions are so good, that they are better teaching tools than the master paintings, because of their mistakes as well.


IMO the homework is not just an exercise for students but a gauge for the instructor to see if the concept is being understood. Imagine the amount of time it would take to individually comment on each submission if 200 students submitted homework when analyzing a few brings the point home.

True, but I do not think I will ever get 200 submissions!

Thanks you COLORIX for your comment.

Not all the webinars will be lecture style, the thing is this is a webinar about the old masters, but I will do other things as well.


About the homework submission, on the Monet painting.

Forget about the stacking of the clouds, those do not stack, do you see the stacking between the two darks of the foreground?


Thanks again everyone,

Ken

gourdalicious
09-17-2012, 12:14 AM
Thank you Ken, I think I have this straight. As I have multitudes of other responsibilities this week I took a photo that was brightly colored with not much in tonal variation and converted it to B & W. Then I used photosketcher in watercolor mode to do a painting and also converted to B& W to show the lack of tonal variation. Hopefully the "painting" in color shows depth as requested

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-albuquerque_Nov2005_002_2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-albuquerque_Nov2005_002_3_800x600_BW.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-FotoSketcher_-_albuquerque_Nov2005_002_2_800x600.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-FotoSketcher_-_albuquerque_Nov2005_002_3_800x600B__W.jpg

nougat
09-17-2012, 12:26 AM
"There is a lot of truth to this, I need to get said what needs to be said. So far I have covered just half of what I was intending to say, but I guess it is that I cannot plan everything when it comes to live classes.
I get mixed reviews, some people say I speak too fast, then I realize the people who say this are foreign, which made me think prior to that that I have some sort of speech impediment. Then I say it is the amount of info that is too much, and some people say it is just perfect, because they are used to fast speech and complex ideas. I am stumped!"

well we're all individuals with different abilities. i am one of those who, whilst fast speech is no problem, needs time to understand and digest information.
just carry on at what seems comfortable for you and those who need a little more time (me :D) will be able to use the pause button in the downloads :)

chalet_dor
09-17-2012, 01:16 AM
I am stumped!"

Don't be stumped Ken. Some of us are old! I am 73 and have been painting less than a year. dor : ))

chalet_dor
09-17-2012, 04:44 AM
:wave: Hi Ken

Fourth Try

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Dors_fourth_try.jpg

I know my cast shadow is too dark. Need more practice with photo shop.

Did I pass? (hint hint)

paintncook
09-17-2012, 12:26 PM
Thank you Ken, I think I have this straight. As I have multitudes of other responsibilities this week I took a photo that was brightly colored with not much in tonal variation and converted it to B & W. Then I used photosketcher in watercolor mode to do a painting and also converted to B& W to show the lack of tonal variation. Hopefully the "painting" in color shows depth as requested

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-albuquerque_Nov2005_002_2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-albuquerque_Nov2005_002_3_800x600_BW.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-FotoSketcher_-_albuquerque_Nov2005_002_2_800x600.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Sep-2012/990382-FotoSketcher_-_albuquerque_Nov2005_002_3_800x600B__W.jpg
OMG, gordalicious, this photo looks exactly like the driveway out to the road from my house in the Missouri Ozarks. Have you been tresspassing on my property, lol? Kathy

pamshowcase
09-17-2012, 12:34 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/174457-Final_Edit_Walk_Homework.jpg
This is my revision, I guess I miss "stacking" unless it vertical, I also tried to link the darks with the path. Thanks for your help.
Pam

Colorix
09-17-2012, 01:01 PM
Thanks you COLORIX for your comment.

Not all the webinars will be lecture style, the thing is this is a webinar about the old masters, but I will do other things as well.


About the homework submission, on the Monet painting.

Forget about the stacking of the clouds, those do not stack, do you see the stacking between the two darks of the foreground?



Ken, with lectures, I sort of meant *knowledge*, however you want to share it, I'm interested.

Btw, I'm a foreigner, and I hear your words clearly.

The Monet "improvement"... I missed the point totally with it, I should not have submitted it. The original is based entirely on colour, with almost no values.

Linda Reyes1959
09-17-2012, 02:52 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/978726-001.JPG Here is my attempt at this weeks home work. Tried to use little value and just color.

Ken Instructor
09-17-2012, 04:34 PM
I thought Pam submitted the homework, I am not sure what homework you are referring to COLORIX.

On the Monet painting, stacking can go either way, side ways or whatever. If I tell you in person LOOK AT MY HAND, and I raise both hands apart, which one would you look at? You won't know, you will jump from one to other. Isn't that the same effect as the cliff shadows in the Monet painting? Where else could you find this concept at play?

Dor, send me the homework again without you working on the tires, you created a new problem. Send me the version, if you like, without the smudge. I hope you know what I mean.

Best of luck,

Ken

Ken Instructor
09-17-2012, 04:45 PM
One more thing, I do not know how I can critique a photo, it does not show how you manipulated the elements. The last version, the green tree on the left does not advance from the red tree on the right. The photo of the scene itself will never do it. The path does help with the sense of depth, but only that, but you should be able to get more illusion.
On the Monet submission, the pink in the ground planes does not quite recede, I feel alot of flatness. Avoid using so many hues, just grey out or cool them as they recede.

I hope this helps, this is a sophisticated concept, you might not get it within the first hundred tries, but always keep it mind as you grow as an artist; you will avoid yourself a lot of problems.

Ken

chalet_dor
09-17-2012, 05:12 PM
Dor, send me the homework again without you working on the tires, you created a new problem. Send me the version, if you like, without the smudge. I hope you know what I mean.
Ken
Here it is Ken
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-03.jpg
Smiles to you........dor:))

chalet_dor
09-17-2012, 06:33 PM
Ken I am getting better with photo shop........: )):wink2:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-another.jpg

chalet_dor
09-17-2012, 09:17 PM
Homework week 2-Secrets of the Old Masters

Edward Steichen - Yellow Moon showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Eduard_Steichen_yellow-moon-_Copy.jpg

Monet - Impression Sunrise (my favorite of all Monets) showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Impression_Sunrise_Claude_Monet_Copy.jpg

Cezanne - In The Woods showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Paul_Cezanne_In-The-Woods.jpg

Pissario - Three Women Cutting Grass showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Pissario_Three-Women-Cutting-Grass.jpg


Waiting for your comments............ dor:))

chalet_dor
09-18-2012, 06:44 AM
Ken I am getting better with photo shop........: )):angel: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/224962-02B.jpg


Bingo maybe?

Sgourlayart
09-18-2012, 09:47 AM
Homework week 2-Secrets of the Old Masters

Edward Steichen - Yellow Moon showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Eduard_Steichen_yellow-moon-_Copy.jpg

Monet - Impression Sunrise (my favorite of all Monets) showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Impression_Sunrise_Claude_Monet_Copy.jpg

Cezanne - In The Woods showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Paul_Cezanne_In-The-Woods.jpg

Pissario - Three Women Cutting Grass showing depth and recession through color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-Pissario_Three-Women-Cutting-Grass.jpg


Waiting for your comments............ dor:))Dor, I hate to tell you this, but all four of these pictures are not really examples of recession with color. Change them to black and white (Enhance drop down) in PhotoShop and you will see this (particularly the Pisarro, which is clearly a tonalist piece). Remember: only a few of the Impressionists were colorists. Look at Monet's early work; it is clearly influenced by the Barbizon school and is not colorist at all. As his eyesight grew worse and worse, he became much more of a colorist. Changing an image to black and white is absolutely the best way(IMO) to separate out color influences. In the Pisarro, the use of mainly purples and yellows is what gives the value contrast because these two colors have the greatest difference in value of all the primary/secondary complementary colors. As Ken has told us, this is not that easy! If you want to see some work by modern colorists, start with Cedric Egeli, Camille Prezwodek or Lois Griffel; they are all true teaching desciples of the Capetown colorist movement started by Charles Hawthorne and continued by Henry Hensche. Stu

pamshowcase
09-18-2012, 10:52 AM
Stu, you are a very smart man and I read your posts carefully BUT I have to disagree this time. Not about the values in Dor's examples, but that these show exactly what Ken asked for in wk 2 homework.

Quoting Ken post #46
For homework, please do a painting where you show depth primarily through color, instead of value. Meaning, just because the painting is flat, valuewise, does not mean it will turn up to be so in your color painting. The fewer values the better, but the ones that you have, design them well and strongly; then use color primarily for all the rest.

I'm posting this because of that "nagging little voice" saying maybe I don't understand what I think I know. I am a novice, trying to learn, which is why I value being in this class with folks like you and Dor. My homework may be on target or not but it is a fine example of overworked lol.
See you in class Pam

Sgourlayart
09-18-2012, 11:37 AM
Stu, you are a very smart man and I read your posts carefully BUT I have to disagree this time. Not about the values in Dor's examples, but that these show exactly what Ken asked for in wk 2 homework.

Quoting Ken post #46
For homework, please do a painting where you show depth primarily through color, instead of value. Meaning, just because the painting is flat, valuewise, does not mean it will turn up to be so in your color painting. The fewer values the better, but the ones that you have, design them well and strongly; then use color primarily for all the rest.

I'm posting this because of that "nagging little voice" saying maybe I don't understand what I think I know. I am a novice, trying to learn, which is why I value being in this class with folks like you and Dor. My homework may be on target or not but it is a fine example of overworked lol.
See you in class PamPam, let me clarify what I was saying. Your homework clearly shows that you get it. You have your warm colors in the foreground and your cool colors in the distance and your painting looks very flat when printed out in black and white like this:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-174457-Final_Edit_Walk_HomeworkBW.jpg On the other hand Dor clearly stated in her fourth example that this painting by Pisarro showed "depth and recession through color" and in my opinion this particular painting is primarily showing depth and recession through value and is not an appropriate example at all. Here it is printed out in black and white showing its very strong value structure:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-224962-Pissario_Three-Women-Cutting-GrassBW.jpg Actually, we should really wait and see what Ken has to say about this. I too value the exchange of ideas in this class. Stu

susanc
09-18-2012, 11:58 AM
I can't find the photo of the painting I was going to post, but here's one by Alfred R. Mitchell (first time I've heard of him) called "Sunset Glow, California" which was painted about 1924:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img392color.jpg

The foreground and the start of the middle ground are nearly the same value, but are differentiated by the foreground being yellow (the green patch in it is on the yellow side of green) and the middle ground is green, becoming bluer as it recedes.

Here's the desaturated version so you can compare the value of the foreground in front of the darker bushes to the middle ground behind the bushes. To my eye, they are both fairly similar in value:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img392bw.jpg

susanc
09-18-2012, 12:52 PM
This is the painting I was going to share, but I think the previous one turned out better after all. This painting is called "Mighty Oak" by Thomas McGynn (1878-1966). To me, the tree foliage appeared to recede mostly through color, going from yellow into greens, then blues (from warm to cool).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img395_copy.jpg

This is the desaturated version.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img395bw.jpg

chalet_dor
09-18-2012, 01:09 PM
Homework week 2-Secrets of the Old Masters

Hello Stu and everyone else who has posted a picture or commented, thank you!

I so appreciate all your comments. That is the way I learn and also the way Ken can find out what we understand or have still to learn.

That is why I posted the paintings..........to see if I understood or was lost.........before attempting a painting. Smiles to all of you.

Dorian

nougat
09-18-2012, 01:16 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/15364-bwdaniel-garber.jpg

how about these? have i got it right?

painting by daniel garber

LadyMadonna
09-18-2012, 01:34 PM
Okay here goes nothing. I just finished this oil landscape painting based on an Aspevig comp. I thought it might be suitable for this homework thread. There is limited value and grayed, colour recession towards the background. Like all of you I am learning as I go along and interested in all the critique and comments.
P.S. You're doing great Ken ! Be who you are !

susanc
09-18-2012, 01:39 PM
I also wanted to add an artist who is an icon, since the previous two I posted are fairly unknown. This is Winslow Homer, The Artist's Studio in an Afternoon Fog, 1894. I am comparing the buildings. The building at the far left has a stronger orange cast to it than the other buildings, helping it come forward. The large building in the center of the painting has some hints of orange in it, and from what I saw in the print I scanned, the smallest building has no orange and also seems most distant. (It's such a gorgeous value mass effect, the objects' distances differentiated mostly by color temp. And size.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img397homer.jpg

I wish it had scanned how I see the print. The color hints in the building in the middle of the painting are beautiful. This painting really doesn't need desaturation:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img397homerbw.jpg

chalet_dor
09-18-2012, 01:57 PM
Homework week 2-Secrets of the Old Masters

Ken

How do I recognize if it is hue or value that makes objects recede or advance?

susanc
09-18-2012, 04:10 PM
I am doing my best to make sure that Ken gets 200 homework submissions this week. ;)

Homework week 2-Secrets of the Old Masters

Ken

How do I recognize if it is hue or value that makes objects recede or advance?

Dor--since they both do, we're putting the pictures into grey scale (B&W TV) versions. This reveals just the values of a painting. It allows us to check to see if the grays of a particular object or area are nearly the same gray shade/tone. When that happens, this means color is doing most of the work of recession because there isn't much change in the grey's tone (value).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-colorvsvalue_.jpg

If an object (or areas) show/s strong changes in darkness or lightness of grey tones, value is definitely at work. Color might be involved, too, but value is definitely playing a role. See the little trees in the background, and how much lighter gray they are than the trees that separate the foreground from the middle ground? That's value playing into the appearance of recession.

As you continue work with value, your eye grows better accustomed to recognizing the changes in value without putting the picture into grayscale.
Squinting or looking through your eyelashes at a picture helps to take some color out and see it more in value.

Ken's answers are great. Can't wait to see what he says!

Jacdesusbielle
09-18-2012, 04:16 PM
What a good question Dor ! I Am always wondering and never know the answer.... Help Ken !

nougat
09-18-2012, 05:44 PM
well explained susan!!!

susanc
09-18-2012, 06:28 PM
Thanks, Nougat.

I just realized that I've been ignoring the dark line of trees that separates the foreground from the middle ground. In a sense, their dark value brings the foreground forward. Would that mean that value is helping after all??! So please just ignore them, too! ;)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-colorvsvalue1.jpg

chalet_dor
09-18-2012, 07:36 PM
[quote=susanc]I am doing my best to make sure that Ken gets 200 homework submissions this week. ;)



Dor--since they both do, we're putting the pictures into grey scale (B&W TV) versions. This reveals just the values of a painting. It allows us to check to see if the grays of a particular object or area are nearly the same gray shade/tone. When that happens, this means color is doing most of the work of recession because there isn't much change in the grey's tone (value).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-colorvsvalue_.jpg

If an object (or areas) show/s strong changes in darkness or lightness of grey tones, value is definitely at work. Color might be involved, too, but value is definitely playing a role. See the little trees in the background, and how much lighter gray they are than the trees that separate the foreground from the middle ground? That's value playing into the appearance of recession.

As you continue work with value, your eye grows better accustomed to recognizing the changes in value without putting the picture into grayscale.
Squinting or looking through your eyelashes at a picture helps to take some color out and see it more in value.

Ken's answers are great. Can't wait to see what he says![/quote

Susanc
Because your are showing me with an image I can see and understand what you are saying that value and color both play a role and that I will be able to see it for myself without having to put it in grayscale when I have worked with it more. Thank you so much. dor:)) PS I will just ignore that dark line of trees! LOL

susanc
09-18-2012, 09:00 PM
Dor--Thanks for ignoring that line of trees! I felt so bad when I realized it might be confusing people instead of helping them!

I'm not "there" yet on gauging values by eye alone. It turns out that I'm not even close! I was stunned to see how dark the yellow value is on this tree. You follow the line across to find the corresponding spot on the b&w version. I always think of yellow as being light in value!

Also, the bright orange spot on the ground isn't nearly as dark in value as I thought it would be! It pretty much blends in with the rest of the foreground in the gray scale version.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-contrast.jpg

I think it was Libby Tolley? who wrote about how one day she was driving and she saw a stand of trees and thought to herself that they were probably a value 6 (or something like that). That was a turning point in her life. She was excited about that moment because realized that she was starting to think like an artist.

Still hasn't happened to me...But I haven't given up yet! :o

Shadow_2010
09-18-2012, 09:35 PM
Ken, I finally found the #46 homework site, yahoo! Thank you so much ladies for posting the link! I think I have an answer to knowing who's "got it" and who doesn't having been a teacher for many years. It's actually really simple. You put up pictures here in WC or at the beginning of your class and ask us which is which. Which one shows value recession or which is color rec. You decide how many pictures you want to put up to determine our knowledge of any given subject. If the number of people answering correctly is high you move on with the lesson if it is low you come at the subject again from another direction and hope the "duh" people get it this time. I wouldn't do it more than twice though as some of us haven't paid our light bill and no matter what you do the "light isn't going to go on" It would be nice if only you knew who got it and who didn't :smug: Perhaps a remedial slower class for those of us who really want to get it but it might take a while.

Sgourlayart
09-18-2012, 10:02 PM
Dor--Thanks for ignoring that line of trees! I felt so bad when I realized it might be confusing people instead of helping them!

I'm not "there" yet on gauging values by eye alone. It turns out that I'm not even close! I was stunned to see how dark the yellow value is on this tree. You follow the line across to find the corresponding spot on the b&w version. I always think of yellow as being light in value!

Also, the bright orange spot on the ground isn't nearly as dark in value as I thought it would be! It pretty much blends in with the rest of the foreground in the gray scale version.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-contrast.jpg

I think it was Libby Tolley? who wrote about how one day she was driving and she saw a stand of trees and thought to herself that they were probably a value 6 (or something like that). That was a turning point in her life. She was excited about that moment because realized that she was starting to think like an artist.

Still hasn't happened to me...But I haven't given up yet! :oSusan, yes that was Libby Tolley and it is in her book. However, there is a problem with the two images above; I don't know how you "desaturate" the colors, but when I take the two side by side photos above and convert them to B&W with Photoshop Elements, here is what comes up:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-1697-contrastBW.jpg I am not exactly sure how you can explain this other than the desaturated tree is not the same image. Any other ideas? I do like all your illustrations and explanations and agree with them completely, but this one illustration looks goofy to me. Dor told me awhile back that she bought all of Johannes "Landscapes from Photos" series, but I don't think she has watched them all yet because if she had, I think she might have a little less trouble with value massing. Color is another issue, and Johannes has not put as much focus on it as he has on value structure. Stu

chalet_dor
09-18-2012, 11:06 PM
Homework Week 2 Secrets of the Old Masters

Hello again Stu

Dor told me awhile back that she bought all of Johannes "Landscapes from Photos" series, but I don't think she has watched them all yet because if she had, I think she might have a little less trouble with value massing.

You are absolutely correct I did buy all of Johannes lessons but I sure haven't had the time to look at them. Seem I stay so busy keeping up!

I have been googling - Cedric Egeli, Camitte Prez, Lois Griffel, Capetown Colorest Movement, Charles Hawthorne and Henry Hensche!

My heart and soul sing when I view the impressionists paintings of those in the in the Cape School of Art. So now I know where I belong in the scheme of things "With all my color loving".

Don't know much, but I am enjoying life..........and art
dor:))

"COLOR IS MY DAY-LONG OBSESSION, JOY, AND TORMENT." CLAUDE MONET

chalet_dor
09-18-2012, 11:25 PM
Susan, yes that was Libby Tolley and it is in her book. However, there is a problem with the two images above; I don't know how you "desaturate" the colors, but when I take the two side by side photos above and convert them to B&W with Photoshop Elements, here is what comes up:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-1697-contrastBW.jpg I am not exactly sure how you can explain this other than the desaturated tree is not the same image. Any other ideas? I do like all your illustrations and explanations and agree with them completely, but this one illustration looks goofy to me. Dor told me awhile back that she bought all of Johannes "Landscapes from Photos" series, but I don't think she has watched them all yet because if she had, I think she might have a little less trouble with value massing. Color is another issue, and Johannes has not put as much focus on it as he has on value structure. Stu

Stu I used the snipping tool and copied Susan's images and took them to Photoshop 7 and desaturated them and they look exactly the same as Susan's images. :confused: the difference must be in using different imaging programs. dor:))

nougat
09-19-2012, 12:35 AM
i would suggest we all SQUINT at the yellow tree.

when i do this it seems more like susan's to me. i don't see the change in value visible in stu's picture.
what about you all?

and ken?

Pinklady219
09-19-2012, 01:34 AM
Okay here goes. Did this rather quickly in watercolors. :crossfingers:

pamshowcase
09-19-2012, 08:33 AM
So Ken, are we talking about 2 different situations?
One is the overall absence of value contrasts or all mid tones
or two, the value shift if the color is removed from the scene leaving only the inherent differences between hues? This is fascinating......
Pam

Sgourlayart
09-19-2012, 10:57 AM
Stu I used the snipping tool and copied Susan's images and took them to Photoshop 7 and desaturated them and they look exactly the same as Susan's images. :confused: the difference must be in using different imaging programs. dor:))Dor, you are right about desaturating the image; it looks exactly like Susan's when done in Photoshop Elements also; Photoshop Elements uses the same tools as Photoshop. However, my understanding of the way the eye sees color is best represented by converting the image to black and white (Enhance/conversion to B&W in Photoshop). Therefore, a saturated yellow would ALWAYS have a lighter tone than an equally saturated red or blue. I think we need to have Ken weigh in on this at some point. EVALUATION OF THE TONAL VALUE OF A HUE TO COMPARE TO A GRAYSCALE: IS IT DONE BY CONVERSION TO BLACK AND WHITE OR BY DESATURATION IN PHOTOSHOP? Helpful in this might be this image from James Gurney's book "Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter" Pg. 76:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/175408-img004.jpg
Notice where the saturated yellows appear on the gray scale compared to red and blue and look at the saturated images in Susan's original example and here desaturated image beside it; the yellow areas in the tree would NEVER have a value that is lighter than the green and blue areas of the tree. So if we are to evaluate the tonality of a colored painting (as our eye would see it) I believe we must convert it to black and white and NOT desaturate the colors in it. Stu

nougat
09-19-2012, 12:15 PM
i think you may be right stu..:)

nougat
09-19-2012, 12:16 PM
a 'dark' yellow would be equivilent to a lighter blue or red as value goes...right?

chalet_dor
09-19-2012, 12:31 PM
Homework Week 2- Secrets of the Old Masters


Hi Stu

Thank you. I just tried it and from now on I will choose gray scale rather than de-saturate. Also going to corrected the document I saved from you telling me to de-saturate that I have from way back last February. You are a scientist Stu, thank you for going deeper and finding out why the discrepancy. Yes, I have the same book. Must read it! :lol:

nougat
09-19-2012, 12:37 PM
ok so here's my pic again in B&W rather than desaturated.
i think it still fills the brief...the water and the trees in the distance...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber_zps5efcbe0f.jpg

nougat
09-19-2012, 12:39 PM
i just noticed..look at the bright blue and yellow in the right bottom corner and then see the b&w version...
just like stu said. :)

Sgourlayart
09-19-2012, 12:52 PM
a 'dark' yellow would be equivilent to a lighter blue or red as value goes...right?Yes, that is exactly right. Kind of complicated, isn't it? Each hue has it's own chroma (saturation) and it's own value. The colorists indicate depth and recession by shifting the hue (changing it to either a warmer or cooler hue) while the tonalists indicate depth and recession by shifting the saturation or chroma. Since very light values and very dark values do not display chroma well, most high chroma color is in the mid value range. Understanding how this works is key to improving your art. Since the composition of a landscape painting is much more dependent on its value structure than the colors, Johannes emphasizes this throughout his courses. Ken is trying to teach us how color can influence the composition as well; this was one of the major contribution of the impressionists--an increased use of chroma. They were able to do it because of the development of the more saturated colors from synthetic and organic colors developed in the 1800s and by the development of the metal tubes to store paints for a longer period of time during the same era. Stu

Sgourlayart
09-19-2012, 01:00 PM
ok so here's my pic again in B&W rather than desaturated.
i think it still fills the brief...the water and the trees in the distance...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber_zps5efcbe0f.jpgYes, this is a good example. The foreground colors are more saturated than the background colors and there is a hue shift toward blue of all the colors. But this painting also has some mid-dark and mid-light values in it, so there also is depth and recession shown by value shifts. So this is a "mixed" painting like most of us paint. Monet was an extreme colorist, painting only in mid values in a lot of his works. Painting this was is particularly useful on a very gray or foggy day. Many painters do not like to paint on such days, because everything looks so flat and there is so little color saturation. On such a day, the colorist pushes the chroma and the tonalist pushes the values. Stu

chalet_dor
09-19-2012, 01:05 PM
Yes, very complicated and too much for my brain to handle! : ))

Sgourlayart
09-19-2012, 01:53 PM
Yes, very complicated and too much for my brain to handle! : ))Dor, although it seems complicated, it can be understood by most artists. For you, in my opinion, the best way to learn this is to watch those videos from Jo's landscape course; as you know, he's absolutely the best at clarifying this stuff by illustrating in Photoshop, giving his PowerPoint lectures and by showing you examples from master painter as well as by going through the homework. When you understand value massing from his course and how the eye works, you will get it. Give it a go! Stu

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:32 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/174457-Final_Edit_Walk_Homework.jpg
This is my revision, I guess I miss "stacking" unless it vertical, I also tried to link the darks with the path. Thanks for your help.
Pam

'Stacking' is a form of visual competition, the shadows of the cliffs are still competing, a bit, because the colors are too similar, and disconnected. You hae to make on more dominant, have one hand bigger than the other.

Does anyone get my tennis match analogy? If you have two competing contrasts, your eye will bounce back and forth, one to the other, wthout any rest, like a ball does so in a tennis match, with no winner, the game going on forever. This is what happens when we have competition in our paintings.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:36 PM
Ken I am getting better with photo shop........: )):wink2:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2012/224962-another.jpg


IT is getting there, but you lightened the foreground value, so now my eye does not know whether it is in the light or shadow. I think you just gave me the cue for my next webinar...

If your foreground mass is in the light, make sure it separates clearly from the shadow and groups with the light, and if its in the shadow make sure it groups with the shadow and not with the light.

Hint: THERE IS NO IN BETWEEN!!! Something is either in the light, or in the shadow.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:41 PM
Dor, I hate to tell you this, but all four of these pictures are not really examples of recession with color. Change them to black and white (Enhance drop down) in PhotoShop and you will see this (particularly the Pisarro, which is clearly a tonalist piece). Remember: only a few of the Impressionists were colorists. Look at Monet's early work; it is clearly influenced by the Barbizon school and is not colorist at all. As his eyesight grew worse and worse, he became much more of a colorist. Changing an image to black and white is absolutely the best way(IMO) to separate out color influences. In the Pisarro, the use of mainly purples and yellows is what gives the value contrast because these two colors have the greatest difference in value of all the primary/secondary complementary colors. As Ken has told us, this is not that easy! If you want to see some work by modern colorists, start with Cedric Egeli, Camille Prezwodek or Lois Griffel; they are all true teaching desciples of the Capetown colorist movement started by Charles Hawthorne and continued by Henry Hensche. Stu

On Dor's submissions....
The moon painting separates though value, because the moon is lighter.

The Monet painting has alot of color recession, but he did have alot of values masses there to separate them. It is an example of conceptual depth, instead of illusory depth.

The Cezanne painting, well, there are warmer colors in front and cooler at the back, but the painting is so wacky (excuse my barbarism), but I cannot really feel the forms and therefore their recession into space. You have to use paintings that depict form, try portraits, if you can see the warm cool thing in play.

The last painting, the grasses are cooling as they recede, but he did lighten the value somewhat. A receding plane partially through value..

Keep wrestling with it....

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:46 PM
Stu, you are a very smart man and I read your posts carefully BUT I have to disagree this time. Not about the values in Dor's examples, but that these show exactly what Ken asked for in wk 2 homework.

Quoting Ken post #46
For homework, please do a painting where you show depth primarily through color, instead of value. Meaning, just because the painting is flat, valuewise, does not mean it will turn up to be so in your color painting. The fewer values the better, but the ones that you have, design them well and strongly; then use color primarily for all the rest.

I'm posting this because of that "nagging little voice" saying maybe I don't understand what I think I know. I am a novice, trying to learn, which is why I value being in this class with folks like you and Dor. My homework may be on target or not but it is a fine example of overworked lol.
See you in class Pam

The homework is not a failure, but it does not show 100% areas where the artist used color, with the same value, in order to suggest depth. There is both at play, but this is because you are looking for paintings that have the example. This is too difficult, this is why I preferred you all doing it, in your own painting, starting from scratch or perhaps copying one of their works, improving on them to make the lesson show.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Pam, let me clarify what I was saying. Your homework clearly shows that you get it. You have your warm colors in the foreground and your cool colors in the distance and your painting looks very flat when printed out in black and white like this:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-174457-Final_Edit_Walk_HomeworkBW.jpg On the other hand Dor clearly stated in her fourth example that this painting by Pisarro showed "depth and recession through color" and in my opinion this particular painting is primarily showing depth and recession through value and is not an appropriate example at all. Here it is printed out in black and white showing its very strong value structure:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-224962-Pissario_Three-Women-Cutting-GrassBW.jpg Actually, we should really wait and see what Ken has to say about this. I too value the exchange of ideas in this class. Stu

The foreground in the Monet painting is flat, but it separated from the middle ground, through value, but within the foreground itself, we know it receded, however valuewise it is not showing. So in the foreground alone, we would expect the painting to have warmer colors below, and cooler ones on top, even if there is a difference of just a few feet.
But Stu is right, as well, because there is depth through value with regard to the foreground separating not from itself...but from the the MIDDLE GROUND...

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:53 PM
I can't find the photo of the painting I was going to post, but here's one by Alfred R. Mitchell (first time I've heard of him) called "Sunset Glow, California" which was painted about 1924:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img392color.jpg

The foreground and the start of the middle ground are nearly the same value, but are differentiated by the foreground being yellow (the green patch in it is on the yellow side of green) and the middle ground is green, becoming bluer as it recedes.

Here's the desaturated version so you can compare the value of the foreground in front of the darker bushes to the middle ground behind the bushes. To my eye, they are both fairly similar in value:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img392bw.jpg

This is a great example, because the immediate foreground is very similar in value than the mountain ranges. Just pluck out the trees and shrubs.

In painting, you wil never find receding masses perfectly of the same value,-the artist will always put in a slight dark in the foreground or something, like impasto, just to make sure you feel the recession. But masswise, you can see that the artist designed the background and foreground to be one mass separating from the dark plant life.
You will only find perfect flatness in value but depth in color, in small sections. But you have to see the attempt as the whole. And this is a good example...
You get your star sticker Susan!!!!

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:57 PM
This is the painting I was going to share, but I think the previous one turned out better after all. This painting is called "Mighty Oak" by Thomas McGynn (1878-1966). To me, the tree foliage appeared to recede mostly through color, going from yellow into greens, then blues (from warm to cool).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img395_copy.jpg

This is the desaturated version.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img395bw.jpg

Also good, though he did employ slight value changes. But the main mechanism was color. You can still get away using more color and less value, not so much changing the hues from yellow to blue, because that implies a dramatic change in the local color of the leaves, but a simple play of warm versus grayer tones (cool), should do it.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:58 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/15364-bwdaniel-garber.jpg

how about these? have i got it right?

painting by daniel garber

Like I said, in areas of the painting you can see obvious plane separations only through color, like the tree on the right breaking off from the background. You can see it in other areas, but in these areas you can pick out slight value changes, but the tree on the right is an obvious case.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:01 PM
Okay here goes nothing. I just finished this oil landscape painting based on an Aspevig comp. I thought it might be suitable for this homework thread. There is limited value and grayed, colour recession towards the background. Like all of you I am learning as I go along and interested in all the critique and comments.
P.S. You're doing great Ken ! Be who you are !


I appreciate your effort to modify Aspevig's 'Mountain Lake" painting, into a greyer day, and I think I do see the principle in action. Anyone else wanna comment?

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:03 PM
Okay here goes nothing. I just finished this oil landscape painting based on an Aspevig comp. I thought it might be suitable for this homework thread. There is limited value and grayed, colour recession towards the background. Like all of you I am learning as I go along and interested in all the critique and comments.
P.S. You're doing great Ken ! Be who you are !


You did fail to desaturate certain colors as they recede, like the yellows, but I think you achieved the effect due to slight tiny value changes or detail. The painting should not recede, technically, but it is the slight tinkering of the details that did it. I was going to talk about this but was unsure if it would be too much overkill...

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:04 PM
Okay here goes nothing. I just finished this oil landscape painting based on an Aspevig comp. I thought it might be suitable for this homework thread. There is limited value and grayed, colour recession towards the background. Like all of you I am learning as I go along and interested in all the critique and comments.
P.S. You're doing great Ken ! Be who you are !


There are overall, up close, very subtle value changes, but overall I do feel, I dont know why, the recession. I need help here guys... anyone? Any contributions?

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:06 PM
I also wanted to add an artist who is an icon, since the previous two I posted are fairly unknown. This is Winslow Homer, The Artist's Studio in an Afternoon Fog, 1894. I am comparing the buildings. The building at the far left has a stronger orange cast to it than the other buildings, helping it come forward. The large building in the center of the painting has some hints of orange in it, and from what I saw in the print I scanned, the smallest building has no orange and also seems most distant. (It's such a gorgeous value mass effect, the objects' distances differentiated mostly by color temp. And size.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img397homer.jpg

I wish it had scanned how I see the print. The color hints in the building in the middle of the painting are beautiful. This painting really doesn't need desaturation:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img397homerbw.jpg


Bingo, look how something that is in black and white seems to be on the same plane, in color, it looks like it somehow bends away... Great example. I think I found my teacher's pet.. wink wink.:clap:

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Homework week 2-Secrets of the Old Masters

Ken

How do I recognize if it is hue or value that makes objects recede or advance?


It is not a technical thing, it is something you feel psychologically...

Look here in the link:

http://www.artistsnetwork.com/articles/art-demos-techniques/color-temperature-painting-demonstration

Just copy and paste it.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:16 PM
Thanks, Nougat.

I just realized that I've been ignoring the dark line of trees that separates the foreground from the middle ground. In a sense, their dark value brings the foreground forward. Would that mean that value is helping after all??! So please just ignore them, too! ;)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-colorvsvalue1.jpg


Value is helping the separation, but the obvious change of orange to green give the effect even if the trees were not there. Susan's answers are very good, she is explaining very well about value and color. I did no assume some people did not know how so see the difference between value and color, or to see the same value underneath multiple color changes. That takes time and it is a perceptual thing. There is no HOW, it is just through training. Ask a professional musician how he can tell the difference between and A note and a C sharp. He will tell you the same thing, its about being sensitive, and you have to be painting years to feel it consistently, but at least you should in the case of music, know if such and such note is higher or lower in the scale, than the next note. That way, you practice, and then you can identify the exact note, not just if it is higher or lower pitch than the adjacent notes...

Make better sense?

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:25 PM
Dor--Thanks for ignoring that line of trees! I felt so bad when I realized it might be confusing people instead of helping them!

I'm not "there" yet on gauging values by eye alone. It turns out that I'm not even close! I was stunned to see how dark the yellow value is on this tree. You follow the line across to find the corresponding spot on the b&w version. I always think of yellow as being light in value!

Also, the bright orange spot on the ground isn't nearly as dark in value as I thought it would be! It pretty much blends in with the rest of the foreground in the gray scale version.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-contrast.jpg

I think it was Libby Tolley? who wrote about how one day she was driving and she saw a stand of trees and thought to herself that they were probably a value 6 (or something like that). That was a turning point in her life. She was excited about that moment because realized that she was starting to think like an artist.

Still hasn't happened to me...But I haven't given up yet! :o


Pure yellow feels like it is a very light value, but it is not, it is actually almost a mid tone. But it is an illusion. Orange and Red of the same value will feel darker, because yellow is related to our mind as being the color of light, therefore the less of it will feel 'darker.' In fact, by putting purple in there, of the same value as yellow, the purple will look darker, even if it is not, because in our everyday life we are used to relating warm colors with light values and cool colors like purples to be adjacent to darkness, to recession. Light stimulates the eye, like warm colors, and the absence of it, feels like darkness. Yes, there are cool lights and warm darks, but the eye is always used to being attracted to the light, therefore it comes forward, light comes forward (value changes play in here as well). What attracts the eye will want to come forward. The brain perceives it as so, and so anything that comes forward is always in the light, generally speaking. Therefore stimulating colors attract the eye and appear to jump out, stimulating colors are the ones of the longest wave frequency that carry the color yellow the most, like yellow, orange, red orange (red blue), and even yellow green. These colors pop out, and feel like light, because light is the aspect of the physical world on objects, that always appears to be the most protruding part of the object. You do not see dark accents coming out, or highlights going in.... see?

The example of the left side of the tree is a perfect example of value flatness, color recession... not so much to the right, but you realized that.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:36 PM
Okay here goes. Did this rather quickly in watercolors. :crossfingers:

Close enough, I would have just used more yellows in the front (the rocks) and gradually lose it as it recedes to the purple. You did it nicely in the water, the blue green fore water is warmer than the purply one further back. Not bad, just, that you have more colors, room, to use to guarantee the effect. I would push it a bit more

KEn (you guys are wearing me out ahaha). ;)

I do not know why your purple painting does not show up, the marine one with the distant structure at the back...

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:39 PM
So Ken, are we talking about 2 different situations?
One is the overall absence of value contrasts or all mid tones
or two, the value shift if the color is removed from the scene leaving only the inherent differences between hues? This is fascinating......
Pam


I am not THAT sure if I understand. How can there be only hues remaining while removing the color from the scene?

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 03:41 PM
Dor, you are right about desaturating the image; it looks exactly like Susan's when done in Photoshop Elements also; Photoshop Elements uses the same tools as Photoshop. However, my understanding of the way the eye sees color is best represented by converting the image to black and white (Enhance/conversion to B&W in Photoshop). Therefore, a saturated yellow would ALWAYS have a lighter tone than an equally saturated red or blue. I think we need to have Ken weigh in on this at some point. EVALUATION OF THE TONAL VALUE OF A HUE TO COMPARE TO A GRAYSCALE: IS IT DONE BY CONVERSION TO BLACK AND WHITE OR BY DESATURATION IN PHOTOSHOP? Helpful in this might be this image from James Gurney's book "Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter" Pg. 76:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/175408-img004.jpg
Notice where the saturated yellows appear on the gray scale compared to red and blue and look at the saturated images in Susan's original example and here desaturated image beside it; the yellow areas in the tree would NEVER have a value that is lighter than the green and blue areas of the tree. So if we are to evaluate the tonality of a colored painting (as our eye would see it) I believe we must convert it to black and white and NOT desaturate the colors in it. Stu


There are two options here: The inherit value of yellow, red and blue, and the value that these colors APPEAR to have next to eachother while having the same value. Yes, blue has a range in all values, red mostly in the middle, and yellow mostly in the middle to light. But the issue here is that a blue and yellow in the same value, yellow will look brighter, even it is not, technically. Our brain interprets it as so, but our trained eye should be able to catch the illusion. I wrote about this above a bit more.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 04:03 PM
Yes, that is exactly right. Kind of complicated, isn't it? Each hue has it's own chroma (saturation) and it's own value. The colorists indicate depth and recession by shifting the hue (changing it to either a warmer or cooler hue) while the tonalists indicate depth and recession by shifting the saturation or chroma. Since very light values and very dark values do not display chroma well, most high chroma color is in the mid value range. Understanding how this works is key to improving your art. Since the composition of a landscape painting is much more dependent on its value structure than the colors, Johannes emphasizes this throughout his courses. Ken is trying to teach us how color can influence the composition as well; this was one of the major contribution of the impressionists--an increased use of chroma. They were able to do it because of the development of the more saturated colors from synthetic and organic colors developed in the 1800s and by the development of the metal tubes to store paints for a longer period of time during the same era. Stu

Two things bother me from the above text: Technically speaking, if the hue changes in value, lets say darker, its starts changing hue. You can only darken a yellow too much before you need to add red to the mixture and then blue. But I get what you are saying. What we vaguely know as COLOR, the kiddy crayons, are more like hues, and what we should call COLORS, are more complex entities of value, and chroma of a certain hue. We use the words very vaguely, but hue refers more the ideal changes in wavelength that we see in the prism effect, those pristine variations of blue, yellow etc.

The colorists indicated shadow and depth through HUE AND CHROMA, while TONALISTS mainly used VALUE. You can pull things back and forth by either cooling them either by changing the hues, from yellow to blue or by desaturating, from yellow, to grayer yellow (cool). The effect is the same. Both of these trends are of the colorist trend. The tonal trend, according to my usage of the word, depends on value, like the old school painting or the Hudson River School painters, Rembrandt etc. It could be an Tomaito, Tomawto problem. But you can do all three, through hue, chroma, and value.

I am teaching precisely how to use chroma and hue, to break planes of the same value...

Everything else seems to be spot on, if I am not mistaken in my revisions.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 04:06 PM
Yes, this is a good example. The foreground colors are more saturated than the background colors and there is a hue shift toward blue of all the colors. But this painting also has some mid-dark and mid-light values in it, so there also is depth and recession shown by value shifts. So this is a "mixed" painting like most of us paint. Monet was an extreme colorist, painting only in mid values in a lot of his works. Painting this was is particularly useful on a very gray or foggy day. Many painters do not like to paint on such days, because everything looks so flat and there is so little color saturation. On such a day, the colorist pushes the chroma and the tonalist pushes the values. Stu


BINGO!!!

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 04:15 PM
Susan, yes that was Libby Tolley and it is in her book. However, there is a problem with the two images above; I don't know how you "desaturate" the colors, but when I take the two side by side photos above and convert them to B&W with Photoshop Elements, here is what comes up:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-1697-contrastBW.jpg I am not exactly sure how you can explain this other than the desaturated tree is not the same image. Any other ideas? I do like all your illustrations and explanations and agree with them completely, but this one illustration looks goofy to me. Dor told me awhile back that she bought all of Johannes "Landscapes from Photos" series, but I don't think she has watched them all yet because if she had, I think she might have a little less trouble with value massing. Color is another issue, and Johannes has not put as much focus on it as he has on value structure. Stu


This phenomena happens to me all the time, I think its because the computer does not know how to read, in value, very saturated colors, and so some programs give you a mid tone, or a light tone. I think it depends on the eye to determine this, like a piano tuner, because the intensity of the yellow is throwing of our brain, trying to convince it it is a light value!!!! AHHH!:eek:

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 04:17 PM
Susan, yes that was Libby Tolley and it is in her book. However, there is a problem with the two images above; I don't know how you "desaturate" the colors, but when I take the two side by side photos above and convert them to B&W with Photoshop Elements, here is what comes up:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/175408-1697-contrastBW.jpg I am not exactly sure how you can explain this other than the desaturated tree is not the same image. Any other ideas? I do like all your illustrations and explanations and agree with them completely, but this one illustration looks goofy to me. Dor told me awhile back that she bought all of Johannes "Landscapes from Photos" series, but I don't think she has watched them all yet because if she had, I think she might have a little less trouble with value massing. Color is another issue, and Johannes has not put as much focus on it as he has on value structure. Stu

In the color version, you do see plane separation on the left portion of the tree even when there is no value change, but this is not the case with the right side. But the change of yellow, to green, in the same value.. felt like a change in plane.... AWESOME!!!!!

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 04:22 PM
Dor, you are right about desaturating the image; it looks exactly like Susan's when done in Photoshop Elements also; Photoshop Elements uses the same tools as Photoshop. However, my understanding of the way the eye sees color is best represented by converting the image to black and white (Enhance/conversion to B&W in Photoshop). Therefore, a saturated yellow would ALWAYS have a lighter tone than an equally saturated red or blue. I think we need to have Ken weigh in on this at some point. EVALUATION OF THE TONAL VALUE OF A HUE TO COMPARE TO A GRAYSCALE: IS IT DONE BY CONVERSION TO BLACK AND WHITE OR BY DESATURATION IN PHOTOSHOP? Helpful in this might be this image from James Gurney's book "Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter" Pg. 76:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/175408-img004.jpg
Notice where the saturated yellows appear on the gray scale compared to red and blue and look at the saturated images in Susan's original example and here desaturated image beside it; the yellow areas in the tree would NEVER have a value that is lighter than the green and blue areas of the tree. So if we are to evaluate the tonality of a colored painting (as our eye would see it) I believe we must convert it to black and white and NOT desaturate the colors in it. Stu

Are you saying that in the computer there is a tool for a Band W application that would give a different result than the desaturate option? This implies that the computer would be better in one case and less in the other.

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 04:26 PM
ok so here's my pic again in B&W rather than desaturated.
i think it still fills the brief...the water and the trees in the distance...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/15364-daniel-garber_zps5efcbe0f.jpg

This does seem to be more accurate than the previous one, especially in the trees. I think the computer does now know how to properly desaturate colors unless you apply the B&W option.

chalet_dor
09-19-2012, 05:22 PM
Homework Week 1&2- Secrets of the Old Masters

Thank you Ken, you have worked your behind off for us. I have book marked your classes in you own special folder........looking forward Sat's class.........even though I have indigestion :wink2:

pamshowcase
09-19-2012, 07:48 PM
I am not THAT sure if I understand. How can there be only hues remaining while removing the color from the scene?
Sorry, that was my understanding of de saturate ( removing the hue and leaving only the tone?????)

LadyMadonna
09-19-2012, 07:56 PM
Dor you are making me laugh !

chalet_dor
09-19-2012, 08:34 PM
Good Donna! :D

Sgourlayart
09-19-2012, 09:01 PM
Are you saying that in the computer there is a tool for a Band W application that would give a different result than the desaturate option? This implies that the computer would be better in one case and less in the other.I have no idea what a Band W application is, but I have always used the black and white conversion to look at pure value structures. Susan was using the desaturation tool and came up with the yellows much darker than they appear to the eye. You can see that in my posts. My question was: "Which tool do we use in the photo editor to get rid of color to evaluate the value structure; do we use B&W conversion, or do we desaturate all color?". Stu

Sgourlayart
09-19-2012, 09:03 PM
Homework Week 1&2- Secrets of the Old Masters

Thank you Ken, you have worked your behind off for us. I have book marked your classes in you own special folder........looking forward Sat's class.........even though I have indigestion :wink2: Dor, have you been sipping that walnut oil medium again? Stu

susanc
09-20-2012, 12:06 PM
Stu, that's interesting! I didn't realize they gave different effects? I am definitely still in learning mode. (Stirring up controversy is a fringe benefit.) ;)

I also desaturated this one because I hadn't read the earlier discussion until now. It should be easy to fix if desaturating it was wrong.

This painting is by Frederick Remington:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-remingtonsamplecolor.jpg
(I didn't mean value #4, I meant sample #4 in the text under the photo.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-sheepherderbW.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-remington_greyscale.jpg

This conversion version is much lighter. Thanks, Stu. Maybe I have a better eye than I thought! :)

I love this stuff--great exchange of ideas here!!!!!!!!

leahwiedemer
09-20-2012, 12:07 PM
Are you going to post the homework for lesson2? Or have I missed it somehow?

CaKatt
09-20-2012, 12:31 PM
Hmk Wk 2
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/197736-HHALupineValleyWC.jpg

Sgourlayart
09-20-2012, 12:42 PM
Stu, that's interesting! I didn't realize they gave different effects? I am definitely still in learning mode. (Stirring up controversy is a fringe benefit.) ;)

I also desaturated this one because I hadn't read the earlier discussion until now. It should be easy to fix if desaturating it was wrong.

This painting is by Frederick Remington:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-remingtonsamplecolor.jpg
(I didn't mean value #4, I meant sample #4 in the text under the photo.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-sheepherderbW.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-remington_greyscale.jpg

This conversion version is much lighter. Thanks, Stu. Maybe I have a better eye than I thought! :)

I love this stuff--great exchange of ideas here!!!!!!!!Me too, Susan ("love this stuff"). And I don't mind stirring up controversy if it improves understanding of important concepts. We may be giving Ken more than he bargained for; I think we will hit the 200 posts mark by Saturday's class at this rate! I'm still waiting for him to tell me what a "Band W application" is. Stu

susanc
09-20-2012, 12:42 PM
Are you going to post the homework for lesson2? Or have I missed it somehow?

Hi Leah! It's back a ways in this thread. I've been posting others' paintings (mine aren't so great) but other people are posting their own, too.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18737312&postcount=46

For homework, please do a painting where you show depth primarily through color, instead of value. Meaning, just because the painting is flat, valuewise, does not mean it will turn up to be so in your color painting. The fewer values the better, but the ones that you have, design them well and strongly; then use color primarily for all the rest.

Hint: The Impressionists painted most of their pieces in a mid tone. Why would that be?

Do not get bugged down if you do not get this concept. I am not finished with it, I will talk about it much more the next class. It is not easy, I know, believe me. I took me years to get the aha moment, only difference is that I did not have myself to explain it to me.

As long as you got the value exercise well understood, I think I would feel accomplished as a teacher. The difference with color, is that you could ignore using slight value contrasts, and use slight temperature shifts instead for separating planes.

The less value, the more color, and the less color, the more value.

You can try doing a tonalist painting with limited color and more value, if you like.

Just play with it.

One more thing, I am in my last stages of wearing braces, I have a TMJ problem that I needed adjusted, and so the braces change my way of pronouncing some words because my teeth are moving from one day to the other!!! So forgive me if some words do not come out clear. I try to speak slower, but I am told it is the amount of information that makes people ask me to slow down. I can't help it sometimes, I run out of time. So I think of two alternatives: speak slowly and get less info in, or, speak faster, get it on record for the download so you can go back to it, but get MORE INFO in. Your pick.

IT reminds me when I watch David Leffel videos; he speaks so slowly that I watch his videos at quarter speed, faster!!!

Anyway, send me any questions as to the homework, you can copy old master paintings, or do your own, but I need to see design, and the ability for you to show me one thing receding from the other, through color. Watch out for stacking, cloning, or just baaaaaaaaddd shapes.

Thanks,
Ken

susanc
09-20-2012, 12:53 PM
Me too, Susan ("love this stuff"). And I don't mind stirring up controversy if it improves understanding of important concepts. We may be giving Ken more than he bargained for; I think we will hit the 200 posts mark by Saturday's class at this rate! I'm still waiting for him to tell me what a "Band W application" is. Stu

Yes, Stu--since I don't want to paint the way I've always painted, I need to keep an open mind and explore as many possibilities as I can wrap my mind around. No point in sniffing out the same rabbit hole all my life--I already know what those results are and I'm not satisfied! (That's why I'm here.) Thanks for your input!

Thanks so much, Ken! Looking forward to Saturday's class.

LadyMadonna
09-20-2012, 02:02 PM
Love your painting CaKatt !

Sgourlayart
09-20-2012, 05:23 PM
Yes, Stu--since I don't want to paint the way I've always painted, I need to keep an open mind and explore as many possibilities as I can wrap my mind around. No point in sniffing out the same rabbit hole all my life--I already know what those results are and I'm not satisfied! (That's why I'm here.) Thanks for your input!

Thanks so much, Ken! Looking forward to Saturday's class.Susan, I hope you have already done Johannes whole landscape course, because if you want to change how you paint, his course is the best starting point I am aware of for a representational artist; at least it certainly helped me improve my landscapes. As I posted earlier, Ken is not only walking in his father's footsteps, he is enlarging the footprints for all of us. Stu

colormefancy
09-20-2012, 06:11 PM
Ken,
I am sorry that I have not submitted homework assignments. This week I checked from Saturday 9/15 after class until Tuesday night 9/18 for the thread for "Homework, week 2, "Secrets of the Masters," but was unable to see that it had been submitted. Today, I returned to look through the posts to see if I could find out where it was posted and found a mention in Jo's post that it was in Post #42. I had to search through several threads until I found the correct Post #42. I have to agree with "Nougat" that it would be MOST HELPFUL if you were to post each week's homework in a separate thread.
I have been learning alot about value and receding objects and have a new awareness of using color temperatures in masses to indicate distance of objects within a mass. I really wanted to do the homework for critique to help clarify and solidify what I "think" I have learned. I am intrigued my new understanding of using abstract shapes within the designing of a painting. I loved the example you gave us of the woman with her back toward the viewer, sitting on the bed. (I think it was JSS painting) The left side of her back lined up perfectly with the lines of the adjacent designs. Very clear to me as to what you were trying to teach on the importance of how abstract shapes create design.
Will try to submit next week as have to work until next lesson. Thank you for being patient with us. OLMA
Loved your painting(portrait-old Masters' style) Jo showed us in his last paint-along. Would love to see that painting or an similar Old Masters' style portrait demo'd by you.

Pinklady219
09-20-2012, 08:28 PM
Here goes number 2. Just trying to cement this into my brain. I'm thinking about it every time I see a picture/painting whatever!! Drivin' me nuts Ken!

elisamaria
09-21-2012, 11:32 AM
Homework week 2
Pastel on Canson Mi-teinte paper size A4.
Great classes Ken, appreciate them!But have I learnt anything? You are the judge, I´m the victim.:o
Elisabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/735472-P1080782.JPG

HazelP
09-22-2012, 12:47 AM
Not sure whether I have got it or not but tried doing this painting as homework for this week. I think most of the values are similar.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/915542-IMG_4755.jpg

Here it is in black & white

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/915542-IMG_4755-black--white.jpg

Here it is greyscale

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/915542-IMG_4755-greyscale.jpg

Colorix
09-22-2012, 07:26 AM
Sorry, no time to paint a new one, so this is an oldie, mostly in midtone, with a few lighter areas and a stroke or two of darker pigment:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2012/117343-iz-bw-sunset-Herczfeld.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2012/117343-iz-desat-Sunset-Lcr.jpg

And a thing I made some time ago just for fun. Obviously values are off.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2012/117343-Chroma-BW.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2012/117343-Chroma-colour.jpg

In real life, the colours are of the exact same value.

chalet_dor
09-22-2012, 11:27 AM
Oh Hazel I hope ken see this before class! I just know you have hit the nail on the head.........dor:))

chalet_dor
09-22-2012, 11:30 AM
Sorry, no time to paint a new one, so this is an oldie, mostly in midtone, with a few lighter areas and a stroke or two of darker pigment:
And a thing I made some time ago just for fun. Obviously values are off.
In real life, the colours are of the exact same value.

Hi Charlie
Wonderful work...........: ))

susy q
09-22-2012, 04:14 PM
Hi Ken...great presentation over the last 3 weeks. Could you please post the names of the paintings and artists of the paintings with good water in them -- good design and movement so I can really study them as a great example of this part of your lecture. Looking forward to learning more from you. Thanks, Sue

Colorix
09-22-2012, 05:31 PM
Dor, thanks a lot!

KennethVloothuisart
09-22-2012, 09:26 PM
Stu, that's interesting! I didn't realize they gave different effects? I am definitely still in learning mode. (Stirring up controversy is a fringe benefit.) ;)

I also desaturated this one because I hadn't read the earlier discussion until now. It should be easy to fix if desaturating it was wrong.

This painting is by Frederick Remington:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-remingtonsamplecolor.jpg
(I didn't mean value #4, I meant sample #4 in the text under the photo.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-sheepherderbW.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/1697-remington_greyscale.jpg

This conversion version is much lighter. Thanks, Stu. Maybe I have a better eye than I thought! :)

I love this stuff--great exchange of ideas here!!!!!!!!

In which one did you use the black and white mode, and in which one did you desaturate it? I find that the one that darkened the snow to be less accurate than the one that has flatter values. I see colors and activity in the original, but there should hardly be any value. I guess this is what you mean by the computer wanting to give us the same visual weight, even though the value in itself is flat, the eye still feels that poor substituted by value.

Hope to hear from you soon,
ken

KennethVloothuisart
09-22-2012, 09:28 PM
Hmk Wk 2
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Sep-2012/197736-HHALupineValleyWC.jpg

Wonderful painting, I like it, though color wise, I would have muted the blues a little more as they recede, because I do see values there, Also in the green, try to desaturate it as it recedes or blue it more.

I like the painting as it is regardless.
KEn

KennethVloothuisart
09-22-2012, 09:30 PM
Not sure whether I have got it or not but tried doing this painting as homework for this week. I think most of the values are similar.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/915542-IMG_4755.jpg

Here it is in black & white

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/915542-IMG_4755-black--white.jpg

Here it is greyscale

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/915542-IMG_4755-greyscale.jpg

Yeap you seem to get it, just be abit clearer with your shapes in design in general. I see the green dying from the mountain as it recedes, good, and I see the green tree separating from the purple mountain even when the values are identical.
No need for the values on the lower right, the light strokes? Darken those, use color.

KennethVloothuisart
09-22-2012, 09:34 PM
Homework week 2
Pastel on Canson Mi-teinte paper size A4.
Great classes Ken, appreciate them!But have I learnt anything? You are the judge, I´m the victim.:o
Elisabeth

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/735472-P1080782.JPG

The yellow field, purple it up as it recedes and gets nearer the distance, keep the value...wink wink.

KennethVloothuisart
09-22-2012, 09:39 PM
Dor, you are right about desaturating the image; it looks exactly like Susan's when done in Photoshop Elements also; Photoshop Elements uses the same tools as Photoshop. However, my understanding of the way the eye sees color is best represented by converting the image to black and white (Enhance/conversion to B&W in Photoshop). Therefore, a saturated yellow would ALWAYS have a lighter tone than an equally saturated red or blue. I think we need to have Ken weigh in on this at some point. EVALUATION OF THE TONAL VALUE OF A HUE TO COMPARE TO A GRAYSCALE: IS IT DONE BY CONVERSION TO BLACK AND WHITE OR BY DESATURATION IN PHOTOSHOP? Helpful in this might be this image from James Gurney's book "Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter" Pg. 76:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/175408-img004.jpg
Notice where the saturated yellows appear on the gray scale compared to red and blue and look at the saturated images in Susan's original example and here desaturated image beside it; the yellow areas in the tree would NEVER have a value that is lighter than the green and blue areas of the tree. So if we are to evaluate the tonality of a colored painting (as our eye would see it) I believe we must convert it to black and white and NOT desaturate the colors in it. Stu


Oh ok, I get it, but I prefer you see the value as it is, not as the eye sees it or how it can be compensated, for you should be able to see the value of even the strongest color even if you the best way to interpret it is with a lighter value. If yellow is a mid tone in its pure form, then its value is a midtone, even though it would seem more appropriate to lighten the value. Yellow is a light color, but for it to hold that punch it cannot be that far off from the mid value.

susanc
09-22-2012, 11:18 PM
Great classes--thanks for all the insights! I don't think I ever would have come up with those painting contradictions on my own.

In which one did you use the black and white mode, and in which one did you desaturate it?
ken

Sorry, I should have labeled the last two photos--the middle picture is desaturated and on the last one I used Image>Mode>Grayscale.

Who would have thought that the simple act of turning a picture to black and white values would turn out to be such a pain?! :)

susanc
09-23-2012, 01:10 AM
I'm not fully satisfied with either of Photoshop's solutions to draining color from photos...

I've been looking at the book with the tree painting I posted. The "yellow" foliage isn't a pure yellow out of the tube, but something has been added to desaturate it, which could have darkened the normal yellow value. There are spots of green foliage that are tinted with white and a touch of yellow. These green tints seem to create the values that are lighter than the "yellow" foliage in the desaturated version. Maybe I misunderstood what Stu meant, but I felt his use of "NEVER" was an overstatement since pure tube colors weren't used. :) Through tinting, it appears that some green spots on the tree actually ARE lighter in value than the so-called "yellow". (Even then, I'm not promoting the "Desaturate" feature!)

To me, the Image>Mode>Grayscale versions might be too light and it seems to toss away some subtle gradations.

I was quite surprised to discover that altering a photo to gray values is not as simple as I first thought it was! Whatever you decide, Ken...

chalet_dor
09-23-2012, 01:44 AM
Hi Ken

Please put in writing what our home works is. Yesterday 09-22-2012 class was wonderful. Thank you very much.

Sgourlayart
09-23-2012, 05:55 AM
I'm not fully satisfied with either of Photoshop's solutions to draining color from photos...

I've been looking at the book with the tree painting I posted. The "yellow" foliage isn't a pure yellow out of the tube, but something has been added to desaturate it, which could have darkened the normal yellow value. There are spots of green foliage that are tinted with white and a touch of yellow. These green tints seem to create the values that are lighter than the "yellow" foliage in the desaturated version. Maybe I misunderstood what Stu meant, but I felt his use of "NEVER" was an overstatement since pure tube colors weren't used. :) Through tinting, it appears that some green spots on the tree actually ARE lighter in value than the so-called "yellow". (Even then, I'm not promoting the "Desaturate" feature!)

To me, the Image>Mode>Grayscale versions might be too light and it seems to toss away some subtle gradations.

I was quite surprised to discover that altering a photo to gray values is not as simple as I first thought it was! Whatever you decide, Ken...Susan, you are right; conversion to black and white is not so simple. When done by the computer, it mimics the way that is was done by black and white film emulsions and simulates the way our brain translates the information that our retina senses. While the color spectrum for a pigment right out of the tube can be predicted, mixing with other pigments can lead to unpredictable results. To use a cliche, there is "more than meets the eye" here. As you indicated "NEVER" may be too strong a recommendation and in some cases, desaturation may be preferred. I am not so sure that Ken is going to provide us with an absolute answer or even a rule of thumb to use for a given situation. Stu

sylvia
09-23-2012, 10:11 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2012/265-warm_cold.jpg I think you asked for 50/50 warm and cool? does this fit?

susanc
09-23-2012, 03:41 PM
Susan, you are right; conversion to black and white is not so simple. When done by the computer, it mimics the way that is was done by black and white film emulsions and simulates the way our brain translates the information that our retina senses. While the color spectrum for a pigment right out of the tube can be predicted, mixing with other pigments can lead to unpredictable results. To use a cliche, there is "more than meets the eye" here. As you indicated "NEVER" may be too strong a recommendation and in some cases, desaturation may be preferred. I am not so sure that Ken is going to provide us with an absolute answer or even a rule of thumb to use for a given situation. Stu

Stu, I worried about my post all morning. Thank you for responding the way you did. You gave a very thoughtful reply.

You are right--I don't see how someone can give a "one size fits all" solution, but I am leaning with you toward "conversion to grayscale" as possibly the best of two imperfect choices. Thanks for your help and input. I'm learning so much I never expected I would need to know!

Sgourlayart
09-23-2012, 05:10 PM
Stu, I worried about my post all morning. Thank you for responding the way you did. You gave a very thoughtful reply.

You are right--I don't see how someone can give a "one size fits all" solution, but I am leaning with you toward "conversion to grayscale" as possibly the best of two imperfect choices. Thanks for your help and input. I'm learning so much I never expected I would need to know!Susan, I am not very experienced with Photoshop and usually use an old program called Digital Image Pro from Microsoft for photo editing; it has a much more limited set of tools compared to Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I had never given it a thought before and always used Black and White conversion or Grayscale Mode for this; I didn't even know how the desaturation tool worked until I saw you post with very dark areas where a bright yellow (I thought it was bright--maybe not) had been. I was not at all offended by your post and have learned a lot from this dialogue. I really do like the conversations that occur on this and other threads on Wet Canvas and learn a lot from them. You might be interested in another online site that I have learned a lot from the past year; it is The Complete Artist and Richard Robinson is the creator and he has been having a monthly competition for just over a year now. The website is: http://thecompleteartist.ning.com and is set up as a social network with a lot of interchange between the artists. Dor, Hazel Persson, Xiau Li, Barbara Sawyer and another 5 or 6 artists who are active on Wet Canvas Live have been doing these competitions. It is a little different learning experience, but also with a lot of interchange of ideas. I have actually learned a lot more from Johannes than from Richard this past year. I did not get started with Johannes until just after the Landscapes course, but I did buy that course and did all 24 lessons. I am still learning, too! As one of my acquaintances on The Complete Artist says: "I understand quickly, but first you have to explain for a long time..". This is her daughter's favorite saying and in French it goes: "Je comprends vite, mais il faut m'expliquer longtemps." Let's keep up the interchange and don't worry, I am pretty thick skinned. Stu

jmcedeno
09-24-2012, 02:45 PM
Susan, I am not very experienced with Photoshop and usually use an old program called Digital Image Pro from Microsoft for photo editing; it has a much more limited set of tools compared to Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I had never given it a thought before and always used Black and White conversion or Grayscale Mode for this; I didn't even know how the desaturation tool worked until I saw you post with very dark areas where a bright yellow (I thought it was bright--maybe not) had been. I was not at all offended by your post and have learned a lot from this dialogue. I really do like the conversations that occur on this and other threads on Wet Canvas and learn a lot from them. You might be interested in another online site that I have learned a lot from the past year; it is The Complete Artist and Richard Robinson is the creator and he has been having a monthly competition for just over a year now. The website is: http://thecompleteartist.ning.com and is set up as a social network with a lot of interchange between the artists. Dor, Hazel Persson, Xiau Li, Barbara Sawyer and another 5 or 6 artists who are active on Wet Canvas Live have been doing these competitions. It is a little different learning experience, but also with a lot of interchange of ideas. I have actually learned a lot more from Johannes than from Richard this past year. I did not get started with Johannes until just after the Landscapes course, but I did buy that course and did all 24 lessons. I am still learning, too! As one of my acquaintances on The Complete Artist says: "I understand quickly, but first you have to explain for a long time..". This is her daughter's favorite saying and in French it goes: "Je comprends vite, mais il faut m'expliquer longtemps." Let's keep up the interchange and don't worry, I am pretty thick skinned. Stu
Thank you Stu for the link I just became a member it is a very useful site.

HazelP
09-24-2012, 03:30 PM
Thank you Stu for the link I just became a member it is a very useful site.


You will enjoy this site Jose. I only found my interest in painting 2 years ago and between Johannes and Richard Robinson I have learnt so much!!!

KennethVloothuisart
09-24-2012, 04:17 PM
Susan, I need your help, I beg of you. I cannot find a post that you submitted talking about a certain program assigned equal colors RBG, so that through complex mathematical formulas it makes up for the lack of color.

Something like that, could you repost that quote?

I have been thinking all week about this subject and am like a detective on this, but I just cannot find your post and I thought it was important.

Email is [email protected]


Cheers.

KennethVloothuisart
09-24-2012, 04:19 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Sep-2012/265-warm_cold.jpg I think you asked for 50/50 warm and cool? does this fit?


Nice piece, but I would have preferred you not using so many hues, yes you have warms and cools, but I expected a grayer painting with a fuller range of values.. Google Sargent's watercolors to get an idea. He used only sienna and ultrablue!

Thanks for the submission.

nougat
09-24-2012, 11:47 PM
is this it?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18825012#post18825012

if not you can easily see all susan's posts by clicking on her name beside her avatar. this will bring up her page. then click 'all posts by susan' and you will get all the posts. click on the SMALL blue title to read the post. :)

Rosemarie
09-25-2012, 12:36 AM
Email is kennyjoe86 at yahoo dot com
Cheers.

Kenny, it is not good to post email address like you did. Better to tell them click on your name to get the Contact info. Or do as I did in your quote.:thumbsup:

Sgourlayart
09-25-2012, 01:18 AM
Kenny, it is not good to post email address like you did. Better to tell them click on your name to get the Contact info. Or do as I did in your quote.:thumbsup:Kenny, you can also send a private message to any Wet Canvas member; no one else will see it; they will get an Email telling them that they have a private message and who it is from. You can also send a phone contact number that way. Stu

Vida Evenson
09-25-2012, 12:20 PM
Oh my goodness!!!!! I guess I've missed a lot already! Is it too late for me to join?

I didn't get any info at all about this that I can remember...... :(

Let me know if I'm too late to join..... :( :( :(

Sgourlayart
09-25-2012, 01:58 PM
Oh my goodness!!!!! I guess I've missed a lot already! Is it too late for me to join?

I didn't get any info at all about this that I can remember...... :(

Let me know if I'm too late to join..... :( :( :(Vida, you just missed this one course and it is over, but it will be available for purchase in several months. I think it was a really good course and will be worth the cost. Ken (Johannes' son, who you must have met when you visited his studio) will be giving another course in the next month or so and Johannes will be doing his seascape course, probably right after the first of the year. After that, I think that Johannes is planning more paintalongs. But, none of this has been revealed as to dates yet. Nice to see you back; I am sure you had a busy Summer. Make Johannes a deal he cannot refuse for a painting course in Greece so that we can all come see you. And, if you are still a member of the Complete Artist, post some of your recent work there. Stu

Ken Instructor
09-26-2012, 07:33 PM
Thanks nougat, I suspected there was an application in the software that would allow me to do that.

Cheers!


is this it?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18825012#post18825012

if not you can easily see all susan's posts by clicking on her name beside her avatar. this will bring up her page. then click 'all posts by susan' and you will get all the posts. click on the SMALL blue title to read the post. :)

Ken Instructor
09-26-2012, 07:33 PM
Good thing I misspelled it!!!

Kenny, it is not good to post email address like you did. Better to tell them click on your name to get the Contact info. Or do as I did in your quote.:thumbsup:

Ken Instructor
09-26-2012, 07:35 PM
Homework instructions posted on a separate thread, you cannot miss it.

susanc
09-26-2012, 08:34 PM
Ken--sorry I didn't see your message until now! Nougat gave you the post I think might be the one you had in mind, but I don't think I gave any percentages in it. Maybe someone else did that in a related thread?

Possibly the post you wanted?:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18825012#post18825012

Another thread on the subject:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8203499#post8203499

I started researching this but photography sites seem more concerned with a final-good looking image than with an accurate grayscale representation of their original work, which is what we are interested in.

Thanks, Nougat! Ken would not want to wade through all my old posts!!! Mental torture!

susanc
09-26-2012, 08:38 PM
Sylvia, very soft water--great job!

susanc
09-26-2012, 08:47 PM
Ken

If your brain still isn't fried after all the links in that last thread, here's a page that you might "enjoy" about the b&w dilemma, too! (My brain fried while I was still on the thread itself. I didn't make it to the links!)

http://edkphoto.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/luminance-grayscale-and-desaturation/

He said about grayscale:

We must weight each color proportionally to how our eyes see them.

The accepted weightings are 30% of the red value, 59% of the green value, and 11% of the blue value – and not equal weights as in desaturation.

He also showed some samples of how each process affected a color photo.

Sgourlayart
09-27-2012, 06:45 AM
Ken

If your brain still isn't fried after all the links in that last thread, here's a page that you might "enjoy" about the b&w dilemma, too! (My brain fried while I was still on the thread itself. I didn't make it to the links!)

http://edkphoto.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/luminance-grayscale-and-desaturation/

He said about grayscale:

We must weight each color proportionally to how our eyes see them.

The accepted weightings are 30% of the red value, 59% of the green value, and 11% of the blue value – and not equal weights as in desaturation.

He also showed some samples of how each process affected a color photo.
Susan, you are a real tiger; when you get a bite of something, you keep chewing on it! Thanks for posting this; it is really interesting stuff. Stu

MapperGis
02-13-2013, 04:47 PM
:crossfingers: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2013/221251-Value.jpg Hope this is not to late. I was not able to attend your masters teaching but Just purchased the video down load. I am also signed up for the new class.
I submit my try at values. Thank you Lois

chalet_dor
02-13-2013, 06:03 PM
Hi Ken
This is dor. I attended your Master's Class and will be in this Saturday's Class. Want you to know that I went to Improve My Paintings and clicked on the link and have downloaded your videos..........see you on Sat. Smiles dor:)

Ken Instructor
02-13-2013, 08:32 PM
Guys, start posting on the thread for the upcoming webinar. That thread is hot, this one I see less and less reasons to check unless someone specifies that there is a message for me, in which case I will encourage we always meet on the new thread, the one with the formal announcement on it, with the picture etc.

Best,
Ken