The Artist's Way --Then and Now

[rhoward]

THEN:
Not too many centuries ago, being an artist was not considered to be a very elevated profession. Actually, it wasn't even considered a profession. It was considered a trade, much like plastering or cabinet making. The very best members of the trade were indeed held in esteem, but that was despite their trade affiliations, not because of them. An artist was not considered a good catch for a well-bred girl.

The young artist was apprenticed to a local master artist, who ran a studio that took in work of all kinds. The student's father paid the master for room and board and instruction. The young apprentice usually began his inspirational journey early in the day with broom in hand, cleaning the studio. His sensitivity was further coddled by learning how to sharpen tools, pound rocks into pigment and clean out pots into which mediums had been boiled. By that time the sun had come up and the staff was busy at work.

During the day, the apprentice was seated before casts and practiced drawing the same cast over and over. More often than not he received a regular cuffing about the ears for doing a bad job. He was never struck hard enough to knock the delicate sensitivity out of him (there were almost no women in the trade and absolutely none in the guilds).
The apprentices day was about 14 hours long with five or six hours of non-stop drawing in chalk. After six months of chalk he was moved up to pen and ink for a few years. Then came ink and wash drawings. All tolled, the apprentice spent an average of fourteen years before he had mastered the art of painting color on canvas and panel.

NOW:
Say that you're an artist. That's all there is to it. What a timesaver!

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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[paintfool]

Thank God!

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paintfool

[rhoward]

Yeah, just go to the mall and buy your green beret and never be bothered doing those nasty pushups and other stuff needed to get The green beret. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[paintfool]

Well, Rob, no i don't expect anything worth my time & love to be quite that easy to gain. I don't mind the fact that i have dues to pay one bit. I expect many long years of hard work to be ahead of me to achieve my goals. I'm just greatful that there will be no 'cuffing about the ears'.
Cheryl

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paintfool

[Kevin M]

I go along with Rob's argument and mourn the demise of the apprenticeship.
This is not, by any means, confined to the arts. Have laptop, mobile phone and BMW - will travel. Image over content rules. Like it or not we now live in the smart-ass society.

[Sandi]

The apprentices day was about 14 hours long with five or six hours of non-stop drawing in chalk. After six months of chalk he was moved up to pen and ink for a few years. Then came ink and wash drawings. All tolled, the apprentice spent an average of fourteen years before he had mastered the art of painting color on canvas and panel.

And this improves the creativity how?

How exciting the world would be with a Rembrandt.. hmm, okay, maybe a Ruebens for me... on every single wall in every single gallery and home and mural and and wallpaper and flyer and illustration and comic book and cartoon and CD cover and ..... well, I think you get the 'picture'. *sigh* Now THAT would be heaven. No more impressionists! No more abstracts! No more expressionists! No more art nouve! No more creativity! Now we can REALLY shop for the best of the best in each and every single particle of the paint, medium, color, graphite, brush, etc.. Woe to the artist who dare leave behind a brushhair on the canvas! We will not tolerate such slander of the artist's work!! There are better artists out there who are not so careless!!
Right on, Rh. When do we begin????



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[URL=http://sandikirk.artistnation.com/Art by Sandi[/URL]

[basia2]

...they were less talented than we are... http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif..basia



[This message has been edited by basia2 (edited December 21, 2000).]

[rhoward]

Originally posted by Sandi:
[And this improves the creativity how?


It improves skill. Having the skills VASTLY improves REAL creativity because more options are available to you. Let's face it, if all you can do are pictures of cats facing head on, YOU ARE LIMITED. If there are aspects of the craft that you have not mastered, such as precise drawing and painting, YOU ARE LIMITED. That means that you're playing with just a few cards in the deck and there are only so many permutations of that paucity of skill.

Now imagine that you can draw and paint anything from imagination. Just how much more creative would you be? From experience I can tell you that it would be a lot. Contrary to popular myth, discipline does not quell creativity. Creativity is that nasty thing that pops up in algebra class and makes you look like a goof-off. A truly creative person does not need encouragement because that stuff is bubbling up within them. The people who need encouragement are those who will always paint derivative work and variations on the same theme (claiming that it's personal style).

You can stick a truly creative person in a block of cement and they'll still be creative whereas you can coddle a medocre talent and all they'll be is mediocre. STill, mediocre is a lot better than outright awful. It's certainly something the outright awful artists should reach for. If you can't hitch your wagon to a star, at least you'll be able to hitch it to a horse...or a goat...or a hamster http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/wink.gif



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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[Kevin M]

I posted the followingin the thread ' Great Art':--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great art is inseparable from great craft. Great artists always have someting to say and are MASTERS of the medium they use to say it.

Not welcomed with open arms.

[Sandi]

Omg, I agree with you. shhhhhhhh!!! I won't tell anybody if you don't. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

The unschooled artist, puts in about the same amount of time .. except they are *free* to experiment, free to fail, free to follow their heart & best of all, free to sling whichever medium about their heart desires. The old schools you speak of were so iron clad, ruled with the ruler upside the head, like Cheryl mentioned. I'm afraid that would hamper, if not kill many creative spirits. Sure, some would rejuvenate within their art.. but others would find their creativity spent in creative demise of their instructors.
Even Gottilieb? mentioned, in today's modern day old school, that teachers are slack with their encouragement. How would a student really know how they were doing without the honest open approval from their mentors? We are our own worst critics,.. we need a balance of encouragment and instruction, to keep both alive.
It is neither fair nor honest to conclude that every artist should draw the same, paint the same, or market the same or they are failures or mediocre. Today mediocre, tomorrow a genius. Why? Because of the breakthroughs that were discovered during their time of stamina, determination, study, practice and most of all, passion.

The heart is the only qualified judge of what touches it. One mans hamster is another mans star.

If we allow one school of thought to rule the world... it will be a world of one thought.

Not everybody loves jelly beans.

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http://sandikirk.artistnation.com

[Kevin M]

Sandi,

Would not dare to disagree with a single word you said, but my argument is not with art in general but with the qualifiction of the word 'great'. To return to Rob's theme, visualtion is something that the creative mind encounters on a regular basis but the mechanics of knowing how to translate it to a canvas involves a long and arduous apprenticeship. Would it not be wonderful that having seen a great image in the minds eye you knew 'exactly' how to draw it.

[rhoward]

Sandi, I'm not sure what it is that you want to say. Are you saying that creativity is a delicate thing that can be easily extinguished? If that's the case, I can only say that you haven't met any creative heavyweights.

Think of this, because this is the way a creative meeting goes when you are dealing with tried and true creative people. It's this way now and was this way when St. Peter' was being built:

A project needs to be done which requires an idea which will stand out from the noise of other ideas. It can be a new cathedral in a city full of cathedrals, a mural in a world full of murals or an advertising campaign in an ad-cluttered world. Let's take the last because it's easiest to understand.

A group of proven creative thinkers goes into a conference room...two highly skilled writers who can really handle verbal ideas (they might not spell as well as 357 Mag would like). There are two art directors who can create images that stick in your eye and there's a creative director who understands both writing and art, and how they must go together to create a cohesive unity. She also understands the problem to be solved (what message the client wants to communicate) and never loses sight of that. Think of her as the foreman (foreperson, forehuman?).

Each of these creative people has years of winning awards under their belts. All are respected for creating ads that look good, read well, are catchy and provide an undiscovered way of thinking of a mundane product.

Any of these brainstorming sessions is hardly an exercise in polite tea-party niceties. These are all major league players with big egos that need to be fed and even larger homes in expensive suburbs that need to be maintained (oh yes, and let's throw in theis very real sword of Damocles -- you can be fired at any minute if they think that you're losing your edge. That's the reality of it...you go to lunch and come back to find they've set your desk on fire).

Everyone comes up with ideas...AND THEY FIGHT FOR THEM. They come up with more ideas, and more and more. They modify them while the others say..."yeah, that's okay...but..." There's no free lunch. Gone is the polite respect that entered the room. It begins to resemble a competitive maternity ward with people sweating and screaming and giving birth to ideas, tearing parts off of other's ideas and incorporating them into a new idea.

When they leave the room the carnage is apparent. The floor is strewn with dead babies...with people's proud ideas that they've given birth to, only to have the baby be called ugly or deformed or not right for the project. A floor full of rejected dead babies. Five people walk out and only one idea walks out with them.

That's what creativity is all about. Always was. Always will be. Whether you're coming up with ideas for paintings or cathedrals, the floor of the TRUE creative person is strewn with dead babies...rejected because they were not blonde enough or their eyes weren't blue enough.

Guess how many ideas I had rejected every week? Even though I have boxes and boxes of awards, I have many, many, many more rejections. That comes with the territory of being a true creative worker. Rejection, rejection, rejection, get back up and get rejected again. Does that deaden the creative impulse? Hell no!

There's a very big difference between people who must be creative on demand (can you come up with ten cute jokes about corn flakes or corn plasters in five minutes? Most of us can) compared to the person who waits, passive (and usually passive aggressive) for the divine afflatus to wander by and infuse them with that most magical of all gifts -- the gift the non-creative types hope for...inspiration (you never hear a true creative talk about inspiration).

The true creative worker doesn't wait to be inspired because they know how to turn it on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. And like Michelangelo and Rubens, we get paid incredibly well for that ability and those skills. Whenever we hear all that touchy-feely stuff about creativity we have to laugh because we know that that idea of the magic show is strictly based on what you've seen in the audience. The view from backstage is very different.

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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[Sandi]

10 corn jokes in 5 minutes? hmmm, Make it 5 corn-y jokes in 10 minutes and you're on!

Every person at your table were highly creative. They were all top in their field, or they wouldn't be there. BUT, it's the ones who prooved themselves in earlier battles, yet folded in this one battle that prooves my point. Artists need encouragement in order to survive.
In fact, all of them sitting at that table need it. Today, one person didn't recieve any, and he folded.
Some get encouragment through 'acceptance' of their idea.
Some get it through just being 'hired' to sit at the table.
Some get it through their families & friends.
Some get it through inspiration inspiring inspiration. (feeding off peers).

But they all got it. Just in different ways that are 'acceptable' to them personally.

Not every body is on the same level of competive behavior. Some thrive on competition. Some don't.
Competition brings it's rewards of acceptance for some, just as encouraging words brings acceptance for others.

It's all the same. Different strokes for different folks. There's a school of thought for everyone.. it's up to the individual to find the school that fits them and their style.

My point is, one person's encouragement is another person's discouragement, no matter how highly creative they were just 10 minutes ago.
Creativity can smother within. It needs to be nurtured, not destroyed.

To be the best just because someone told you you were worthless, is a false passion.
To be the best you can be because you love what you do, is pure and honest passion.

Love opens the door to creativity, and hate closes it.
I can't remember one lesson from instructors I've hated. But I remember many from those I loved and admired.

Rejection is something we all have to deal with. Abusive behavior is not. Sometimes the two are in one breath, but very often they are very seperate issues. With rejection, we can learn and grow from it. With Abuse we only learn to hate. Discouraging a creative soul is Abusive.



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<a href=http://sandikirk.artistnation.com>Art by Sandi</a>

[Sandi]

Kevin, you're a smart one! I wouldn't want to disagree with me either. Been there, done that. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Oh I so agree with you, that heaven would be capturing exactly what we visualize irl or imagination. But, I wouldn't call it 'great'.
Great to me, is beyond that. Great is "The Scream" by Edvard Munch. I feel it, I see it, I hear it. I cry with him. Yet it is not a photo-realism or Rembrandtish or Rubenisc or ...

The term Master is very subjective.

Perhaps Edvard was a Master of Rembrant school, knew exactly how to use those grids to achieve an exact likeness or even used the staircase method to exercise his memory... BUT, he wouldn't be given credit for it from those who are still doodling with the casts and value scales in the school system.
But those of us who are touched by him, are more than convinced that he painted exactly how he had visualized. Whether or not the vision came to be before or after he started is irrelevant.
He *knew* his subject. Boy oh boy, did he ever!!!


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<a href=http://sandikirk.artistnation.com>Art by Sandi</a>

[arlene]

Sandi,
I'm quite sure that given the inclination, you'd have no problem reading War and Peace or any other piece of literature.

But you didn't get to the point where you could read literature, by just picking up the book one day and starting to read.

It's no different with art. First you take baby steps...(learning the letters) then take bigger steps (learning that by putting letters together, they make words) then by going further (put words together and you have a sentence.)

From there it's only a matter of time before you are able to tackle books harder than Dick and Jane, and eventually be able to read and interpret Shakespeare.

So it is with fine art...first you need to learn the basics...ie: drawing the figure, drawing shapes, etc...then it's onto different mediums (gouache, oil, pen and ink, etc) and onto composition, color, values etc.

Once you have internalized the basics you are then truly free to create what you wish. For then you have the foundation to build on.

I did not start out doing paper sculpture...I started out drawing shapes and seeing how they changed depending on the lighting, etc and then drawing them from different angles, different lighting, etc.

These early things we do are called "exercises." They're warmups for what is to follow. Is it creative? Nope. But once you've mastered how to draw a sphere, you can then be truly free to take that sphere and reinterpret it into something truly creative.

As for Munch? Yes he could draw and paint. So could Picasso, Matisse, and even deKooning and Pollack. And why were they able to move forward? Because they had the basics.

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http://www.artdebut.com/arlene.htm

[Rod]

Quote The true creative worker doesn't wait to be inspired because they know how to turn it on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week

That would be a hard task for anyone, don't believe there are human beings that never have off days, unless they are modern day electronic robots.
In my humble opinion I beleive our creativity can be reduced by rejection and negative comments that belittle our work.
Not so much by rejection from strangers but more from those that are very close to you. Those are the comments that hurt and can cause a creative block,
Rod

[rhoward]

Originally posted by Rod:
In my humble opinion I beleive our creativity can be reduced by rejection and negative comments that belittle our work.

I suppose in the case of some of the weaker ones, that's the case. But life is a winnowing process that sifts the weak from the strong and people with spine from those without it (yes there are such things as people who are better than others...unless you would mind sharing places with a drooling idiot...or whatever the kindly PC term is, you'd agree).

I think of Stephen King who lived a life of rejection that is unimaginable to most of us. When he was a kid, his Dad went out for a pack of smokes and never came back. Mom worked up to three jobs yet they still couldn't afford to live in any place that had indoor plumbing. He wrote...and he wrote. As kids, he and his brother ran off a mimeographed local newspaper and lost the few dollars they had. No one was interested. He submitted stories to publishers and was roundly rejected.

King was finally accepted on a poverty scholarship to U Maine at Orono and worked in a Laundromat and continued to write and write...and get rejected and rejected. He graduated and married his one and only wife and wrote and wrote, living in a rented trailer. They were so broke at times that they'd call up the telephone company and ask to have the service turned off because they couldn't pay. He wrote. By this time his stack of rejection slips was growing into a mountain. After years of writing, not one story was ever accepted. He took a job teaching at a junior high level academy. Hated it. He wrote. More rejections.

One day another rejection slip arrived and he just tossed it in the pile unopened. His wife retrieved it and opened it. It was an advance of $2500 for Carrie. He broke down into tears. They could afford to turn the phone on. It was the most money that King had ever had in his life...$2500.

It was just a few month's later when the publisher called back to tell him that they'd negotiated a terrific deal and a check for $400,000 was on its way.

After that, he dredged out all of his rejected stories and began submitting them in rapid succession. Soon he was a multi-millionaire and known as the King of Horror. As the years have gone by he keeps writing and writing. He's still married to the same woman. He is now gaining a reputation as a "serious" writer rather than just someone who mastered one genre of literature.

Now where along this odyssey would you have abandoned hope and taken a "real" job? Where along this trail of rejection would you have tossed in the towel? If you are not working as a professional artist, that means that somewhere along the line, you lost courage and quit. Stephen King never quit and that's the difference between the guy on the stage and the people in the audience. The people in the audience are all people who quit at sometime or another, otherwise they would have found themselves on that stage. They would have taken a chance...eschewed the sure bet, the chance to collect their retirement pension. Like the comfortable stockbroker, Paul Gaugin, they would have risked being thought of as a real SOB for leaving the Missus and the kids to take up painting...and get rejected.

Go to a museum, it's lined with the work of people who were able to grow through their rejections.

I suppose I believe in the eternal human spirit...an indomitable spirit that has brought us forth from the comfort of the caves. Yes, I believe that many of us receive a gift, but I also believe that very few of us have the character and spine to burnish that gift...to risk everything for it. There will always be many more sparrows than there are eagles.

When Dylan Thomas admonishes the reader to 'rage against the dying light' it can also be taken to rage against the dying light of culture and taste. That takes more spine than most people have, because they buckle at the slightest criticism.

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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[This message has been edited by rhoward (edited December 22, 2000).]

[Sandi]

Arlene, we agree. Learning the basics in indisputatble. I also don't dispute the time it takes for the avg artist to learn them. We all need them.
It is the rigidity of some schools and/or instructors that I question. To not be *allowed*.. to not be *encouraged*.. etc...

Since we've began the questioning.. we've delved more deeply into our own personal psyches & needs.
One mans discouragement is another mans encouragement. We're all such unique individuals.

Even Steven King left the table. His loved one brought him back. He was determined .. to a degree. If it weren't for the determination factor of his better half, we would not be enjoying his books today. We all need a better half, whether it's the twinkle in our instructors eye over a job well done, our idea being accepted, or a vocalization.. however it comes, we are more than receptive to it.

I was also questioning the "time" schedules set by the institution, regardless of the artist's appetite and skills.
Some artists do very well, obviously. Others would not.
One man's creativity would thrive.
Another's would be buried alive.

Most importantly. The visa-versa would happen, would it not?

There is no one school of thought. They all have there place. (hehe, now there's an absolute).



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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[arlene]

Originally posted by rhoward:

I suppose I believe in the eternal human spirit...an indomitable spirit that has brought us forth from the comfort of the caves. Yes, I believe that many of us receive a gift, but I also believe that very few of us have the character and spine to burnish that gift...to risk everything for it. There will always be many more sparrows than there are eagles.

When Dylan Thomas admonishes the reader to 'rage against the dying light' it can also be taken to rage against the dying light of culture and taste. That takes more spine than most people have, because they buckle at the slightest criticism.


Rob,
Thanks...your comments came at just the right time. Synchronocity...sigh.



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http://www.artdebut.com/arlene.htm

[Sandi]

Also, some creatives become fixed on certain aspects that they love during training, regardless of everything else they learned. Is it wrong to love an aspect, or is it wrong to be told it's wrong to love an aspect?

The old debate over "What is Art" rears its' ugly head here.



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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[arlene]

Originally posted by Sandi:
Also, some creatives become fixed on certain aspects that they love during training, regardless of everything else they learned. Is it wrong to love an aspect, or is it wrong to be told it's wrong to love an aspect?

The old debate over "What is Art" rears its' ugly head here.




No it's not Sandi...but having the training helps to gel that artist's vision...

I may not always agree with Rob's "directness" but he knows what he's talking about. Anyone who's spent time in any of the commercial arts would have to agree with him. And he paints pretty good also.

My sister, who is probably more talented than me, couldn't stand the fire, and wound up quitting. What a waste of talent. Oh well.

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http://www.artdebut.com/arlene.htm

[This message has been edited by arlene (edited December 22, 2000).]

[Rod]

Quote The true creative worker doesn't wait to be inspired because they know how to turn it on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week

I was referring more to the fact that all of us have moments when we cannot give 100%.
Our creative levels and abilities vary with our own situation in life. But we still continue, we are still determined to suceed.

With the basics , I agree we all need to learn the skills etc as we go through the process of finding our own style and expression. But as we are all individuals,then we respond to varying methods of teaching. What suits one does not neccessarily bring out the best in another.
A student that is lucky enough to find a teacher that he clicks with and can completely accept will benefit far more,
Rod

[Sandi]

I agree that the Overnight Success artist is extremely rare. It does take years of study practice!!
But I want to express the variety of ways & time one can 'apprentice' from and the variety of styles that are exciting. We don't all have to go to the same school, in order to be an "artist".
Like Cheryl said, "Thank God!" for the freedom of voice in painting.




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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[Sandi]

I was referring more to the fact that all of us have moments when we cannot give 100%

Yes! & That's why good friends like here at WC and the AW book are so important for the Steven King like determined artist.


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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[dodger]

Well, I certainly can't argue with anything Rob has said. I've been painting for 19 years..lots of rejection! And I get the feeling that there's plenty more in store for me. But, I knew what I was in for from the beginning, despite youthful dreams of success. It's a long, uphill road, & all you can count on is yourself. You really have no control over your external world...critics, sales, jurors, competitions, exhibitions. I've learned that it is all a matter of hard work, staying open, learning to pick yourself up...ultimately, believing in yourself. No one can take that away from you. Perhaps tenacity & perseverance are the true gifts of the artist's spirit.
I'm not surprised you breed bulldogs, Rob! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Judy

[rhoward]

Originally posted by dodger:
all you can count on is yourself


Yeah, huddling for warmth and back patting isn't in the artist's repertoire. Even when working as a team of talented people, it can be a solitary life. But when working with civilians, it downright lonely.

Back when I used to deal with clients, I had a large, austere office with nothing on the walls except a nicely framed piece of lettering that said..."Trust No one. You are alone." That set the proper tone for client intimidation. There's nothing like the truth to bring out the chicken in most people don'tcha think?



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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[paintfool]

As interesting as this conversation has been, and it has, i think we're overlooking a simple fact. Not everyone's idea of success is the same. There are those who are working towards fame and/or fortune through their art, for sure. If they are to become renowned in the art world they are probably going to have to endure the emotional and financial 'cuffing about the ears'. Driven by their passion they will succeed. There also are those who are happiest creating for the sake of the act itself. They will be perfectly happy to sell their work in a more modest fashion. Not everyone expects to become a great master & not everyone feels that they must. That is not to say that we shouldn't strive to be the best that we can be but i don't think the artist that doesn't become famous is a failure. Sometimes they're just...happy. If you are happy you are, in my opinion, successful. Success an individual concept varying greatly from person to person. And i think Sandi is right in that no one has ever been bullied into success.
Cheryl

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paintfool

[gmc]

rhoward..........you sure do have a way of shaking things up. you are an "inspiration."

[rhoward]

Originally posted by gloria777a:
rhoward..........you sure do have a way of shaking things up. you are an "inspiration."

Now you know how the overstuffed bourgeois painters at the French Academy felt when those naughty Impressionists started to paint.

BTW can anyone remember the names of those placid and comfortable painters who gathered for warmth and back pats?



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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[cagathoc]

I have an analogy from my world.

Only 30 years ago, after 5 grueling years of college, young engineers had to spend 2-3 years at the drafting tables before they could move on to engineering projects.

After that they were allowed to assist senior engineers on projects.

And finally after years of training at school and on the job they were allowed to direct their own projects.

Now, colleges require no drafting. My university required one semester of computer aided design.

All design work is done on the tube by designers who are not engineers but train for a couple of years and know how to use the computer programs.

Engineers today are business people more than engineers. They are project managers. They don't have the background that there colleagues just 30 years ago had.

Engineering has changed. Engineering is about business now - the science comes second.

Painting has changed. Now painting is about expression & ideas. The craft and the mechanics come second.

Is it right? Is it wrong? In today's fast paced society where we are rewarded for results, in a world where if you wait the other guy wins (as rhoward describes it) - is it reasonable to ask someone to train for so many years? Realistically, it just doesn't happen as often as it used to.

Are today's engineers as skilled as yesterdays? There are more skilled at meeting today's goals. Their training fits the nature of their work.

I would argue the same regarding painting. Today's painters are trained for today's functions of painting. I see nothing wrong with that.




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aka Cindy & CkA

[cagathoc]

Originally posted by paintfool:
Sometimes they're just...happy. If you are happy you are, in my opinion, successful. Success an individual concept varying greatly from person to person. And i think Sandi is right in that no one has ever been bullied into success.
Cheryl



This is sounding like a difference of perspectives due to gender...



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aka Cindy & CkA

[cagathoc]

Here's my fine print...


I actually don't know s h i t about painting. The funny thing is about 5 years ago, when I started, I thought I knew quite a bit...

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aka Cindy & CkA

[cagathoc]

One more thought, if someone asked me who I think makes a better engineer - someone trained the old fashioned way or today's engineers - given my personal definition of what engineering should be, I'd have to say my older colleagues make much better engineers...



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aka Cindy & CkA

[Sandi]

I agree, that wise engineering is extremely important.

I don't agree, however, that the same template has to be used repeatedly.

Thank God for the Frank Llyod Wrights and DeKoonings of this world.

Tell me something. How many of you from the OLD school, would recognize a Modern structure, (painting), painted by a graduate of the old school?
Me thinks the painting would be foolishly criticized as Modern Crap.

Therein lies another of my unanswered questions.



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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[rhoward]

Originally posted by cagathoc:
Engineers today are business people more than engineers. They are project managers. They don't have the background that there colleagues just 30 years ago had.


Well, they are, if nothing else, different. There is a certain understanding one gets when your hands and mind are involved as compared to when just the mind is involved. A good example of the newer thinking is in this forum. People will spend weeks writing and asking whether this or that will work rather than spending 15 minutes actually doing it. That disembodied approach to art (and to living) fairly reeks of sweaty palms and fear of making mistakes. It the mentality that does not waste paper on sketches, preliminary drafts or working ideas. The finished piece has to go directly from the mind onto the canvas...no sketches will will be thrown away, certainly no paint sketches of details to be worked out. No, everything is intellectualized beforehand.

The problem is that it only allows for accidents to occur on the final piece. Those non-sketching artists hope, of course, for the accidents to be happy accidents.

One of the problems any athlete knows is that you must use it or lose it. If all one does is conceive of finished pieces, they tend to plod along, laying soupy glaze onto soupy glaze and watching the picture get gummier and darker by the day (hey, they didn't intellectualize that). Eventually the end up with something that has the freshness of a week-old corpse.

If, on the other hand, they made numerous sketches and painting sketches, the simple act of doing forces them to become faster and seek better ways.

These are simple truths but they are usually greeted with the understanding a dog exhibits when shown a card trick. That's why there are so few artists who develop at the rate of which they are capable...and nothing is sadder than an artist with that grawing feeling of not getting it and not knowing how to fix it.

Imagine how well the Army would do if its motto was..."be all that you can comfortably be."



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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[Sandi]

"If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten."

So true!!
So individualistic.

I don't understand how the values of 'learning' and 'practicing' became THE topic for discussion, but it did.

I thought we were discussing the different types of schools ... such as The Old school vrs the self taught.. the professional vrs the novice .. the Iron Clad vrs the modern, the Old School vrs the Mall art.

Even the modern schools believe in the basic skills.

I think one of my favorite things learned from the modern schools, is the ability to accept & often see, the different schools in practice.
It's a blast learning to recognize when an artist used which drawing method, painting method, etc..
It's a blast seeing their breakthroughs.

Some artists would be forever stuck in trying to loosen up, if they kept striving for perfection too soon.

Sometimes in order to move forward, we must step back, or take another route altogether. Yes? No?

But whether we mix up the learning to suit our individual needs, or stick with one game plan until we get it right, is completely individualistic. What works for one, does not work for another. Yet, they are all on the same trip.




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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[rhoward]

Originally posted by Sandi:
What works for one, does not work for another. Yet, they are all on the same trip.



I most certainly am not on a trip remotely resembling yours. You just don't know the difference.

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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[arlene]

Cindy,
I think your last statement says it in a nutshell...just because we live in a fast paced gotta have it now world...doesn't mean they're better.

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http://www.artdebut.com/arlene.htm

[chercher]

Originally posted by cagathoc:
This is sounding like a difference of perspectives due to gender...

Cindy, i don't understand that. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/confused.gif
Cheryl

[Sandi]

Perhaps then, you could enlighten us on the differences between the schools. I assume you have tried a variety of schools before settling. Many of us have only what's available in our area, books, video's, workshops and hearsay.

Some of the areas that I'll share the hearsay the Old Schools about(OS), vrs the "most others' types of schools, that I'll call Modern (MS), for the sake of a name. It would be great to replace the hearsay with fact. Always eager to learn. <-- what I meant by 'same trip', btw.

MS = Learn drawing, values, perspective, composition, colors, design, ect.. until you've grasped it. Continue learning by applying throughout your lifetime. Some areas you will excel right away, other areas you will need more study/practice. Concentrate on improving the rough spots. Experiment. Read everything you can get your hands on. Take everything with a grain of salt and question everything. Choose what's best for you & your style, not someone elses. Paint what you love, challenge yourself with what you don't. Measure your work by your progress, not by what you have yet to accomplish.

OS = Learn drawing until it's beyond grasped, until it's perfected. Then learn values until they are perfected. Then learn colors, let's say, until they're perfected. If you don't 'grasp' it within a certain period of time, you'll never get it and you might as well quit right now because you're not moving forward to the next assignment until you've not only grasped it, but perfected it. Judge work by what has not yet been achieved rather than by what has.

What's the real story?






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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[arlene]

Originally posted by Sandi:

OS = Learn drawing until it's beyond grasped, until it's perfected. Then learn values until they are perfected. Then learn colors, let's say, until they're perfected. If you don't 'grasp' it within a certain period of time, you'll never get it and you might as well quit right now because you're not moving forward to the next assignment until you've not only grasped it, but perfected it. Judge work by what has not yet been achieved rather than by what has.

What's the real story?

Perhaps the problem is that you consider it possible to perfect your art...no such thing.

But by doing it over and over, you do gain some mastery...We can use my paper sculpture as an example...my first as opposed to the latest. And I certainly don't consider myself as a master or expert in paper sculpture.

(And don't laugh too hard when viewing my first! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )

<IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/Badart1.jpg" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/dining_out.jpg" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.wetcanvas.com/Critiques/User/diningcloser.jpg" border=0>


Continued practice continues to improve skills...and refine what you feel is important to add or subtract...I learned how to do this on my own, by just the method Rob advocates...JUST DO IT!

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http://www.artdebut.com/arlene.htm

[This message has been edited by arlene (edited December 24, 2000).]

[sgtaylor]

form Il Libro dell' Arte by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini.

It is not without the impulse of a lofty spirit that some are moved to enter this profession, attractive to them through natural enthusiasm. Their intellect will take delight in drawing, provided their nature attracts them to it of themselves, without any master's guidance, out of loftiness of spirit. And then, through this delight, they come to want to find a master; and they bind themselves to him with respect for authority, undergoing an apprenticeship in order to achieve perfection in all this. There are those who pursue it, because of poverty and domestic need, for profit and enthusiasm for the profession too; but above all these are to be extolled the ones who enter the profession through a sense of enthusiasm and exaltation.

You therefore, who with lofty spirit are fired with this ambition, and are about to enter the profession, begin by decking yourselves with this attire: Enthusiasm, Reverence, Obedience, and Constancy. And begin to submit yourself to the direction of a master for instruction as early as you can; and do not leave the master until you have to.

And if you are in a place where many good masters have been, so much the better for you. But I give you this advice: take care to select the best one every time, and the one who has the greatest reputation. And, as you go on from day to day, it will be against nature if you do not get some grasp of his style and of his spirit. For if you undertake to copy after one master today and after another one tomorrow, you will not acquire the style of either one or the other, and you will inevitably, through enthusiasm, become capricious, because each style will be distracting your mind. You will try to work in this man's way today, and in the other's tomorrow, and so you will not get either of them right. If you follow the course of one man through constant practice, your intelligence would have to be crude indeed for you not to get some nourishment from it. Then you will find, if nature has granted you any imagination at all, that you will eventually acquire a style individual to yourself, and it cannot help being good; because your hand and your mind, being always accustomed to gather flowers, would ill know how to pluck thorns.

The "real story" of the Old School. No hearsay. I myself can offer nothing of value on the Modern School, because I don't really know very much about it. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Sandi]

Perhaps the problem is that you consider it possible to perfect your art...no such thing.

This is true. I've always thought it to be possible to perfect our style through diligent searching, studying and practice. The 'perfect' part won't hit us until we've 'arrived' and said everything we can say in a work. Until then it's 1/2 here and 3/4 there and zero there... but we celebrate those 'aha's' of what we did say, what we have learned. What we 'say' is as individual as the tools we used to express it... whether Keebler cottages or Cubism mountains or Rembrandt portraits.

Love your progress pics Arlene!







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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[Sandi]

follow the course of one man through constant practice,

MS also advises to select the 'master' of THE style we prefer, in order to learn as much as we can.
MS also walks us through the art appreciation in order to learn who are the masters of each style and where they excel and where they lack.
They are not much different after all.
Except perhaps the MS allows us to learn chiascruro from let's say Rembrandt, atmosphere from Turner, planes from Czanne, ... because there is no one master who says it all. But then again, even that is not so different..

Perhaps Turner, Czanne, Hopper are not considered masters by the OS??

Who are considered masters of the old school that students can learn from?





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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[Sandi]

On the other hand, Arlene.. I got the impression from the board, specifically rh, that one has to have the painting completely planned out from beginning to end.. zero adjustments are allowed if you are a true artist.
Maybe it is this impression that needs to be explored.
To me, a true artist, is just that. An artist who is true to his/her passion, ever growing, ever maturing, ever trying, evolving into their own style.
A master is one who has evolved. It doesn't matter the style.

Perhaps definitions need to be defined?

In Taylors post, OS seems to stress perfecting one master to completion, before moving on to the next. (my question, who is on this list?). MS seems to stress we learn everything possible from the master of choice, take what we need from it, then move on to the next. (the master list is quite broad). Maybe it is the list where we differ? Maybe it is the degree of in depth study of each master that we differ? OS has to study and paint A master until it is perfected. MS has to study and paint A master until it is learned. Mastering comes through the lifetime, not the semester.



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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[Roan]

As I was reading "Sally Forth" in the Sunday Comics, it suddenly dawned on me that the creator of the strip might have been reading this forum. Unfortunately, it's not on line yet, so I've typed it out:

(Sally enters Hilary's bedroom)

Sally: You're awfully quiet, Hilary. Is there something on your mind?

Hilary: I was just thinking about church. I didn't understand that example.

Sally: Which example?

Hilary: That one about the Titanic being built by professionals while Noah's Ark was built by amateurs.

Sally: I think the message there was that you don't have to be the ideal person to get the job done. You just have to be willing to use your talents.

Hilary: For example?

Sally: Well, you don't have to be a writer to write a great story. You don't have to be an orator to give a great speech.

Hilary: Hey, that's right!

Sally: And you don't have to be a maid to successfully hang up your clothes.

Hilary: I think some things should be left to the pros.

Personally, I like the punch line.

As an aside, doesn't this thread really belong in the Debates Forum? I mean, it really doesn't have anything to do with the TAW book, or unblocking creativity or anything like that.

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Nollaig Shona Dhuibh! Merry Christmas!</FONT c>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

[Sandi]

How neat!! Love it Roan. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

Yes and no. It's a debate, yes, in one arena.. but just a get to know more about it in the other arena.
Creative blocks occur in many areas of our lives. Discouragement is usually the strongest. Learning more about what discourages us is one way to learn how to overcome it.
I think it was Max Beckman who said "Form many versions of reality in order to find yourself."
It's difficult to utililize the various realities into our own, if we don't really know what those other realities are.
But yes, you're right, questioning always does seem to bring about a debate. Yet, debates seem to open more questions.

The artist's way is the only way.. and we're all artists or we wouldn't be here. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[rhoward]

Originally posted by arlene:
[BWe can use my paper sculpture as an example
[/B]

Hey, I like those!



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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[Roan]

Originally posted by Sandi:
Yes and no. It's a debate, yes, in one arena.. but just a get to know more about it in the other arena. . . .


True. My reasons for mentioning this is that I'd like to hear what other people have to say as well. Unfortunately, I dont think enough people utilize this forum. Think we should post a message in debates with a link here to invite people to join in?

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Nollaig Shona Dhuibh! Merry Christmas!</FONT c>
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[Roan]

<U>Cindy:</u>

I know exactly what you mean about engineering. Before I was born, my father was a machinist. He went to night school for AGES to learn drafting, and then worked as a draftsperson for several years. When I was a little girl, I remember him going to nightschool for years to become an engineer and finally Chief Engineer. It was a very long struggle for him.

I still hear Dad mutter and groan about how almost anyone can be an engineer these days, with little or no schooling. I can't say I blame him. He worked for Rockwell, now Beaver-Delta for 37 years and retired in the late 70s. Now, he sees kids with no real education at all, becoming "engineers" and making far more money than he ever saw in his life.

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Nollaig Shona Dhuibh! Merry Christmas!</FONT c>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

[Sandi]

Continued practice continues to improve skills...and refine what you feel is important to add or subtract...I learned how to do this on my own, by just the method Rob advocates...JUST DO IT!

I don't get it. Who is opposing practice and learning? Who is not advocating practice and learning?

Interesting angle, but I don't see the relation.


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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[Sandi]

Roan, good idea. Go for it. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif (moving to debate).

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Art by Sandi (http://sandikirk.artistnation.com)

[Roan]

Doubly done, Sandi :P

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<FONT face="Script MT Bold"><FONT COLOR="#AB4835"><FONT size="5">Roan</FONT s></FONT c></FONT f>
<FONT COLOR="#8A1010">Nollaig Shona Dhuibh! Merry Christmas!</FONT c>
RoanStudio.com (http://RoanStudio.com) &lt;-- pastel open stock vendor sources & reviews!

[arlene]

Originally posted by rhoward:
Hey, I like those!



THANKS! Ummmm...I hope you weren't referring to the first one...it's even more awful in real life...

The diner scene is still one of my favorites...but alas it sold the second time I showed it. (I cried http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif all the way to the bank http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )


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[Beau]

WHAT!....You mean I'm the only one that had to go through this??...Somebody hit me! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


I dont agree with the now thing though...Ive NEVER called myself an artist!!!

I simply paint for the love of painting...I love to paint what I see...Especially bright smiling faces of children...And other people started using the word "artist" when refering to me.

I dont do it to become famous..or inflate my ego...I do it out of love and love alone.I work hard and try new things trying to better my work..to make more beauty.

I'd rather paint than watch TV..I'd rather paint than eat!I can say truly I'm "In love" with painting..I feel the same heartfelt longing as being in love when I'm not holding a brush..It feels like my soul is missing if not looking into a canvas.

Therefore my question...Am I an artist?

Beau

[JaneS]

Beau....... yes

[rhoward]

Originally posted by Beau:
Therefore my question...Am I an artist?




Do you really care what anyone else thinks of you? If you're stuck intraffic, you're the faceless a**hole in the car ahead of the other guy. When you're in the checkout line you're just another faceless customer who wants paper instead of plastic. When you're getting married you're just another guy in a rented tux getting cranked out by the church or the justice of the peace. When your kids are born and you pace the hall your just another expectant father, and when you die you're just another corpse who will leave not much behind save a gravestone.

If you don't care about the way you're thought of on the big stuff, why are you sweating the little stuff?

Frankly, I don't care what anyone calls me as long as they don't call me late for dinner.


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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[bruin70]

alright kidz. line up,,,and the smacking hither and thither will begin immediately....{M}

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"it's alright to be judgmental,,,,,,,,if you have taste"...MILT

[lori]

what was the question again?

now or than...which is better?

than: a place in time that we can only read about and formulate what happened based upon art historians accounts of what they THOUGHT was happening. as i once heard quoted, and will repeat here: "art historians are to art, what ornithology is to birds. ask a bird what they think of ornithologists".
all information about art history is based on the opinions of the art historian. it is impossible to have history written any other way...any history.

however, while i respect what the old masters went through, i feel it was appropriate for their time. today, it wouldn't work. if it did, don't you think people would be doing art this way???

while some people want to go back to the 14 hour grueling day in order to PROVE that they are "true" artists; i have infact worked those long hours in film and all they yield are huge piles of laundry and everyone trying to out BRAG the other as to how many hours THEY worked on any given day. as it is hard to do anything else but go through the motions when you work for such long hours for so many months and years. we are just human afterall.

i think its pointless to measure an artist's ability on how they studied.

now: a time in history when the quick fix seems to be the answer alot of people are searching for. in all facits of life, NOT just art. it is the sign of our times, so it makes sense that art study would be approached in such a way as to get to the "gold" as quick as possible.

however, that doesn't mean that this doesn't work for some and that it actually helps their process. i think it is either sandi or cheri in this thread who is bringing up this point. ALSO, she isn't discounting the basic foundations of art. which it seems that some would like to say are discounted.
while some people in life are always going to look for the easy way to do things, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE is doing the same just by association (as i'm sure in the old days there were LAZY apprentices, who made it through, and WE think they were dedicated masters, just by their association).

anyway, my point is that, how can any one preach which is better for any ARTISTS? last i saw, we were all individuals and did things different...even those of us that feel if we copy a tried and true way that its the only way to get ahead....because it is proven.

to eah his own...forge NEW ground, but don't forget where you've come from...thats MY approach...

[Rod]

Quote To me, a true artist, is just that. An artist who is true to his/her passion, ever growing, ever maturing, ever trying, evolving into their own style.

I agree completely, we never stop learning and growing, our passion stays with us for life.
We do need some discipline ,we have to put the time in to hone our skills, this helps us develop in our own way. Positive encouragement helps us from within, our creativeness comes from positives, not negatives.
If you are surrounded by friends that give support and constructive comments it does help the learning and creative processes.
Whether then or now I believe the same rule applies ,

<center> You have to believe in yourself first </center>


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[rhoward]

Originally posted by lori:
You said that Odd's work 'had nothing to say about art'.

Some of that may well be true, Lori. But then there are other advantages that come from those areas of 'proving' that some men do and women scratch their heads about.

When I was in the military I had to parachute in order to progress to another evolution. It's not that we would likely be called upon to jump in those big parachute drops of yesteryear. That wasn't the point of the training. It was to weed out those who might crack under the strain of combat. Jumping into the night is a highly unnatural act and one has to conquer certain natural urges if they want to survive in those stressful situations.

Similarly, the stresses of a busy studio are very separate from those of the average office job. Today's art schools don't prepare people for it and the drop-out rate is horrendous. 70% of the graduates of art schools never find work in the field. It's even higher with graduates of university art departments. Of those who get jobs in the field, fewer than one third last more than two years...that's one third of the initial 30% who get jobs...10% of the graduating class! I'll remind you that decimating means to lose one in ten. Art schools are losing nine in ten. Those are unacceptable losses.

If you told law students that less than ten percent of them would ever be working in the field two years from graduation, would they suspect that they were not being well prepared? So think of those arduous apprenticeships as the artist's version of training at Ft.Benning, where what you learn builds spine more than skill.



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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[scottb]

As this thread has absolutely nothing to do with The Artist's Way program, or the book, I am closing it. Please keep this in mind when posting in this particular forum.

Also, please keep blatent debates, or statements thrown out to attract debate where they belong - in the debate forum.

Scott

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B. Scott Burkett
Founder, WetCanvas!
http://www.scottburkett.com