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Johannes Instructor
08-22-2012, 11:32 AM
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Secrets of the Masters with Ken Vloothuis

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Join Ken Vloothuis on a journey through an intensive study and analysis of the techniques and artistic philosophies of the “Old Masters,” as he specifically points out the main contributions they have made to the Art world.
The purpose of this course will be to bring to light their techniques to form what is considered today to be great representational painting, while explaining the origin and evolution of these ideas through the lives of its main contributors. Emphasis will be placed on the Impressionists, Sargent, Zorn , Sorolla, and many more. Prepare to be dazzled by this truly academic and explicit course which has long been overdue in the art world of art, explained through rigorously insightful lectures and painting demos.
A certificate will be issued to those who attend the course. Ken Vloothuis has been a contributing instructor in the Wetcanvas Live (subsidiary of F&W Media) classes for over 18 months.
TIME: 1:00 to 3:30 PM EST.
DATES: 3 Saturdays: September 8 to 22
Fee: $9.99 Fee only includes taking the live classes. Recorded videos to be sold separately. The original fee will be deducted from the retail price.
Requirements: High speed internet (aprox. 1.5 MB download speed).

To register click here:
http://www.northlightshop.com/wetcanvas-live-secrets-of-masters-with-ken-vloothuis

Improv
08-22-2012, 01:08 PM
Just registered! :thumbsup:

Looking forward to it, Ken. :)

Cheers

Doug

Sgourlayart
08-22-2012, 01:41 PM
Just registered! :thumbsup:

Looking forward to it, Ken. :)

Cheers

DougMe, too! Will probably miss the first session because of a live paint out that day, but will attend the rest live and buy the course when released. Stu

chalet_dor
08-22-2012, 04:02 PM
When you have paid at North Light make sure you scroll down the page and fill out the registration information.............dor:))

Improv
08-24-2012, 02:06 AM
Bump!

chalet_dor
08-24-2012, 04:40 AM
What does Bump mean?

Improv
08-24-2012, 12:14 PM
What does Bump mean?

A bump is a friendly push to the top of the messages so that more people will notice this thread. I feel that Ken deserves a big audience for his webinars. Thus the bump. The idea of the bump is quite common on internet forums.

Or as Wikipedia says:

Internet


Bump (Internet) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29), to post a reply to a thread purely to raise its profile, or to move the thread to the front page to have exposure on a forums.

Cheers

Doug

sherrysherman
08-24-2012, 12:39 PM
A bump is a friendly push to the top of the messages so that more people will notice this thread. I feel that Ken deserves a big audience for his webinars. Thus the bump. The idea of the bump is quite common on internet forums.

Or as Wikipedia says:

Internet


Bump (Internet) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_%28Internet%29), to post a reply to a thread purely to raise its profile, or to move the thread to the front page to have exposure on a forums.

Cheers

Doug

I once heard that "BUMP" stands for "bring up my post." I don't know if that's true, but it fits. :)

Some forums forbid them, so that only the threads generating real interest stay at the top. On this forum, which does not have dozens of new threads being started every minute, it's not as necessary, but I think this thread deserves a bump. I hope a lot of people choose to watch/hear Ken's course.

Rosemarie
08-24-2012, 01:22 PM
Bumping is a good thing when it is done just now and then. I also hope people will join this seminar. I am looking forward to learn more about Sargent, Zorn (swede!) and others and how they painted. For once I will not be on call on any of the Saturdays the class are.

Question to Ken - will you mention Carl Larsson too?

chalet_dor
08-24-2012, 03:57 PM
Bump
I am so glad I asked............thank you : ))

Johannes Instructor
08-24-2012, 08:18 PM
Bumping is a good thing when it is done just now and then. I also hope people will join this seminar. I am looking forward to learn more about Sargent, Zorn (swede!) and others and how they painted. For once I will not be on call on any of the Saturdays the class are.

Question to Ken - will you mention Carl Larsson too?
Ken has not been activated yet so he can post.

susanc
08-24-2012, 10:06 PM
Ken takes after his Dad--a goldmine of nuggets!

chalet_dor
08-24-2012, 10:31 PM
I am eager to be in Ken's class I know he is an excellent teacher, he learned from his Dad, but I am sure he has his own style............and it will be refreshing.........to have a different teacher for a while.........: ))

Banner
08-25-2012, 03:08 AM
I am really looking forward to Ken's class booked in I was very impressed with the lesson he gave during one of Jo's classes Thank you Ken
:wave:

Sil in LI
08-25-2012, 08:30 AM
I'm looking forward to meeting Ken and taking his class. It sounds great.

nougat
08-25-2012, 10:26 AM
just registered :)

and ...

BUMP :)

Improv
08-25-2012, 12:12 PM
just registered :)

and ...

BUMP :)

That's the spirit, Nougat, BUMP away!!! :clap::thumbsup::D

jeanetteg
08-28-2012, 04:51 PM
Hi, I just registered and got a 15% discount. It is suppose to be good for 2 days. Check your email for one from Northlight. Good Luck. Jeanette

nougat
08-28-2012, 11:04 PM
wish i'd waited...oh well $9.99 isn't a huge amount.

Ken Instructor
08-30-2012, 11:57 AM
Hi everyone, thanks for the bumping support aahahaha. The Masters course will be about talking about all the main artists that have contributed to what Johannes taught this year. Everything known now has its origin and I am trying to trace it to the artists who gave birth to several ideas, like notan, plein air painting, edges as abstract qualities, etc. All these ideas I have discovered have their origin and to understand the present art world and its techniques, it is helpful to understand how some artists failed and triumphed at it. Now, this limits tremendously the artists I have to use, I only have a certain amount of time, and would go over artists that are directly relevant t our learning purposes. It is not a descriptive course, but one where I will give at least one of my personal golden nuggets or a problem where I think that art world always struggles. It has to do with depth and design, as being somewhat opposite in terms, and I will explain how good painting is a balance of these two extremes. That is all for now!!!!
Take care, and I will be around the weekend to answer more things here.
Thanks ,

Kenneth Vloothuis

mickisew
08-30-2012, 12:30 PM
Hi Ken: We look forward to the information you will impart about art and the Masters. Every opportunity to learn is another step along the path of improving our own art work. Thank you for the opportunity. Micki

chalet_dor
08-30-2012, 01:27 PM
Hi everyone, thanks for the bumping support aahahaha. The Masters course will be about talking about all the main artists that have contributed to what Johannes taught this year. Everything known now has its origin and I am trying to trace it to the artists who gave birth to several ideas, like notan, plein air painting, edges as abstract qualities, etc. All these ideas I have discovered have their origin and to understand the present art world and its techniques, it is helpful to understand how some artists failed and triumphed at it. Now, this limits tremendously the artists I have to use, I only have a certain amount of time, and would go over artists that are directly relevant t our learning purposes. It is not a descriptive course, but one where I will give at least one of my personal golden nuggets or a problem where I think that art world always struggles. It has to do with depth and design, as being somewhat opposite in terms, and I will explain how good painting is a balance of these two extremes. That is all for now!!!!
Take care, and I will be around the weekend to answer more things here.
Thanks ,

Kenneth Vloothuis

Hi Ken

I am thrilled to be in your class studying art history, a first for me! Thanks for the update! dor:)):clap:

Ken Instructor
09-01-2012, 08:29 PM
Its partly Art history, but not from the academic point of view, but from the artist point of view, of what is relevant to us, of what we need to know when we go to museums etc. It will have demo/studies, and I will give out some of me personal golden nuggets.
See you 'till then...

chalet_dor
09-01-2012, 08:38 PM
Hi
:thumbsup: I am so interested, and looking forward to it Ken........: ))


Happy are the painters, for they shall never be lonely. Light and color, peace and hope will keep them company until the end of the day. -WinstonChurchill

mickisew
09-01-2012, 09:55 PM
Just got a notice on the Masters course - "gotomeeting". Didn't you say we will be using Ustream? I presume this is just a preliminary email ....

nougat
09-01-2012, 11:54 PM
i thought joe said that we would NOT be using ustream.

so we use gotomeeting?

Tonalist
09-02-2012, 12:11 PM
I don't know why they would change after getting all the bugs worked out..
It doesn't matter to me.. I haven't had a problem with either of them.. but,
I do want to know ahead of time.

woody

mickisew
09-02-2012, 12:14 PM
This issue is that this is a paid class; hence, I believe we will be using Ustream. We will have to wait and see. Either way, I look forward to the class with Ken and will see everyone next Saturday.

Tonalist
09-02-2012, 12:40 PM
I agree with Micki...
As I recall, one of the main reason Jo used Ustream was GoToMeeting couldn't be password protected.

woody

Johannes Instructor
09-02-2012, 01:06 PM
i thought joe said that we would NOT be using ustream.

so we use gotomeeting?
We use go to meeting for Ken's class. I will let you know what we will use for the streaming video.

Johannes Instructor
09-02-2012, 01:08 PM
We use gotomeeting for the lectures not the demos.

sherrysherman
09-02-2012, 04:09 PM
I agree with Micki...
As I recall, one of the main reason Jo used Ustream was GoToMeeting couldn't be password protected.

woody

GoToMeeting is great with slides, power point presentations, watching someone's computer as they do things on their own computer. It is NOT good for watching videos, whether live or prerecorded, which is why the paintalongs and demos have to be on Justintv or ustream or some such.

Of the sites that can show video, ustream can be password protected so will probably by useful for Ken's demos. As for the lectures/powerpoint presentations, Ken WILL use GoToMeeting.

Tonalist
09-02-2012, 06:17 PM
Thanks for the update Sherry!...

woody

nougat
09-04-2012, 03:38 PM
DID YOU GET JOE'S EMAIL?

they're not going to use ustream this time.
they're going to use gotomeeting and livestream.

Monica1
09-04-2012, 04:23 PM
I just signed up for Secret of the Masters.

susanc
09-07-2012, 12:44 PM
I felt myself spiraling down into a paintathon withdrawal, then I remembered Ken's class is tomorrow--can't wait!

lildip
09-07-2012, 05:25 PM
I signed up for the masters course,( by accident twice). as result, i called the north light shop customer service, and the girl did manage to get my second payment reimbursed, but i don't have any way of knowing what the password is because there was no further printing that showed that. How do i get that link? anyone, thankyou. Lildip

CatherineOnTheLake
09-07-2012, 06:19 PM
Hi Ken. Had a busy schedule and had to wait until today to register - but register I did. So I'm really looking forward to it. Unfortunately I couldn't do the paintalongs and so have been out of touch most of the summer but look forward to getting back to it starting tomorrow! Good luck! Catherine :)
P.S. Does anyone know how many people are registered?

mickisew
09-07-2012, 07:03 PM
I signed up for the masters course,( by accident twice). as result, i called the north light shop customer service, and the girl did manage to get my second payment reimbursed, but i don't have any way of knowing what the password is because there was no further printing that showed that. How do i get that link? anyone, thankyou. Lildip

Jo sent an email with instructions. If you have not received this email, contact Jo: [email protected]

nougat
09-08-2012, 12:26 AM
are we using livestream for the demo today?

ah i see that we are :)

Jacdesusbielle
09-08-2012, 02:56 AM
Hi Ken ! I am looking forward to your lecture today. But, for the sake of foreign students, please, don't speak too fast !!! I remember I was completely lost when you helped Jo with explanations about light (I think) and would not like to miss what you will be teaching about the Masters. Even if you have a lot of things to speak about, please, do it more slowly. Thank you

Rosemarie
09-08-2012, 03:25 AM
I signed up for the masters course,( by accident twice). as result, i called the north light shop customer service, and the girl did manage to get my second payment reimbursed, but i don't have any way of knowing what the password is because there was no further printing that showed that. How do i get that link? anyone, thankyou. Lildip

You should see your purchase on Northlight. Click on View order and you will see the information that you have to register in red. Click on the supplied link. It is a gotomeeting link

Johannes Instructor
09-08-2012, 09:11 AM
are we using livestream for the demo today?

ah i see that we are :)
No demo today. Just the lecture.

nougat
09-08-2012, 09:43 AM
ok thank you

nougat
09-08-2012, 12:11 PM
are we THERE yet?? :)

JELLYBEAD
09-08-2012, 04:11 PM
Great presentation Ken. :clap:

Just getting back into painting now that I'm retired, and after listening I realized that I've forgotten so much. Before your workshop, I thought that to have something recede you just needed to make the object smaller and in a mid-tone. Geesh I HAVE got a lot to learn so am anxiously awaiting next Saturday for the next one.

Thanks so much for putting this all together for us.

mickisew
09-08-2012, 04:22 PM
Excellent presentation, Ken - very informative. :clap:

chalet_dor
09-08-2012, 04:39 PM
I enjoyed your class Ken very much. I enjoyed seeing the paintings, most I have been blessed to see in museums. I appreciate art, I am not educated in art history. Thank you very much..........dor:))

Jacdesusbielle
09-08-2012, 05:18 PM
Excellent lecture Ken and thank you so much ! I learned a lot about Impressionism and these great Masters ' way of painting. I never thought they worked so hard on composition, only thought they arranged what they saw to their own taste. Ken explained the contrary so I must think otherwise..... Each age learns a bit .... Thank you Ken !

Amandine
09-08-2012, 05:27 PM
For those who live not too far from Montreal, QC, here's something that might be of interest :

A History of Impressionism - Great French Paintings from the Clark

Montreal Museum of Fine Arts - October 13, 2012, to January 20, 2013

The Sterling and Francine Clark Art Institute has one of the greatest collections of French Impressionism in North America. Seventy-four extraordinary paintings by Bonnard, Corot, Degas, Gauguin, Manet, Millet, Monet, Morisot, Pissarro, Sisley, Toulouse-Lautrec and other French masters, including an outstanding selection of twenty-one canvases by Renoir, and Degas's famous sculpture Little Dancer Aged Fourteen will provide a stunning history of Impressionism from its beginnings until the dawn of Postimpressionism. The presentation of works by Bouguereau, Gérôme and Stevens, among others, will give visitors an opportunity to understand the extent to which Impressionism constituted a revolt against academicism.

Organized by the Sterling and Francine Clark Art Institute, Williamstown, Massachusetts, USA. The Canadian presentation is produced in collaboration with the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts.

sylvia
09-08-2012, 05:42 PM
A really great class..can't wait for next week. Thank you Ken it is well worth the time and effort. Phyllis

spudsmom
09-08-2012, 06:06 PM
Great class today Ken!:clap:

MFA is a fantastic place and being a teacher in the state of Mass...I get in free to all of the museums.

Did you visit the Peabody Museum in Salem Mass when you were here? It's another great place.


Another fabulous museum is the Toledo Museum of Art in Ohio. Every Saturday while growing up I took music and art lessons at the Toledo Museum of Art. It was fantastic. That is where I discovered Monet...my favorite.:thumbsup:

Looking forward to next week.

Sherri

IRanRtist
09-08-2012, 06:48 PM
:clap: Wow Ken, I loved your presentation today! Can't wait for next Saturday.
Robb....

Ken Instructor
09-08-2012, 08:52 PM
About making things recede it is important not to stick to a formula, because its about two things relating to each other, the nearer one, with the closer one. What makes one go behind the other is the loss of focus RELATIVE to the one in front, its all in relationship depending on variables; it cannot therefore be a mere cliche. Its about a subtle play of focus and defocus. I have to explain it visually.

To the kind french lady, yes, relative to the painters prior to the Impressionists, the Impressionists seemed lacking in their design. Not quite, they just had a different approach.

In terms of the museums in Massachussetts (hope I spelled it right), I have seen the Harvard one, the MFA and the CLARK, not the other one mentioned. I had a blast, it was very important for me to see that level of art.

Ruth04
09-08-2012, 09:14 PM
Thank you for this information Amandine. I live so far away, but I have plans to visit family in Montreal in october and this is great for me:clap:
Regards,
Mirsa

HazelP
09-08-2012, 11:05 PM
Ken, this was a great class. I am looking forward to learning more with you next week.

Hazel

SoftEdges
09-09-2012, 12:02 AM
Today's class was wonderful! The question I asked was this: David Leffel teaches that 'in shadow, warm recedes and cool advances; in light, warm advances and cool recedes. I find this to be true in still life painting, but could this also be used to solve problems such as in Monet's train station?
Carol

nougat
09-09-2012, 01:05 AM
Thank you Ken - it was a very interesting class with a lot to take in.

gotta think about that homework now.... :)

Amandine
09-09-2012, 10:28 AM
Thank you for this information Amandine. I live so far away, but I have plans to visit family in Montreal in october and this is great for me:clap:
Regards,
Mirsa
Effectivement, Guatemala is quite a distance from Montreal. You couldn't have come at a better time to visit your family. Enjoy your staying and visit as much as you can.

shane 1
09-09-2012, 11:22 AM
I took the first class, it was very interesting, and informative. I'am looking forward to the next 3 classes.

jmcedeno
09-09-2012, 11:52 AM
Thank you Ken, that was a master class on the Masters, looking forward to the next class.

Ken Instructor
09-09-2012, 11:56 AM
Today's class was wonderful! The question I asked was this: David Leffel teaches that 'in shadow, warm recedes and cool advances; in light, warm advances and cool recedes. I find this to be true in still life painting, but could this also be used to solve problems such as in Monet's train station?
Carol.

I know what he means about warm advancing and cool receding in the light, it is a trick used by artists to pull things back and forth more without using value. But it is the contrast between the warm and cool itself that acts as a focal point, which the eye holds on to, hence automatically sending back any contrast that is not as strong. For instance, a shaded egg, the line between light and shadow holds your eye, expressing its curve of 'in and out.' However, in the shadow there is a slight variation of warm and cool, and value, but the contrast between these two in the shadow has to be less intense than the original contrast between the shadow itself and the light...since it is the most predominating or outward portion of the egg.

I am thinking about the warm receding and cool advancing in the shadow. I know as a fact that if you make your shadows too cool, they do not express the reflected light trying to make its way through to your eye, so they do not look transparent, and shadowy, just dead. I cannot think of a reason why the rule would be reversed in terms of temperatures in their coming and forward and back. Except one, but this is not a rule: Warm reflected light is usually at the furthest point, closest to the dark accent, because the egg in the shadow reflects the warmth of the table it is on; it will be predominantly warm in the part of the egg in the shadow that is closest to table, facing the table the most, that is 'further away' from you. But that does not mean it would not happen if the table was blue and the reflected light in question would thus be cool. IT would still recede. I think that what makes the shadow recede in both cases, is that the contrast between the warm and cool in the shadow, the contrast itself, the line of division, as being much lesser than the contrast or line of division between the light and the shadow. Where there is cool in the shadow, there is warmth, and vice verse, but its the contrast between these two, the degree which will determine how far or close it is relative to the light.
I would like to know where you read that quote, if you could share that I could help you more, so feel free to do so...

Read my text slowly and see if you can picture what I am saying, the ins and outs of the egg etc.

nougat
09-09-2012, 01:46 PM
pictures would be very helpful to illustrate what you're saying... :) pretty please :)

Sgourlayart
09-09-2012, 02:42 PM
Today's class was wonderful! The question I asked was this: David Leffel teaches that 'in shadow, warm recedes and cool advances; in light, warm advances and cool recedes. I find this to be true in still life painting, but could this also be used to solve problems such as in Monet's train station?
Carol.

I know what he means about warm advancing and cool receding in the light, it is a trick used by artists to pull things back and forth more without using value. But it is the contrast between the warm and cool itself that acts as a focal point, which the eye holds on to, hence automatically sending back any contrast that is not as strong. For instance, a shaded egg, the line between light and shadow holds your eye, expressing its curve of 'in and out.' However, in the shadow there is a slight variation of warm and cool, and value, but the contrast between these two in the shadow has to be less intense than the original contrast between the shadow itself and the light...since it is the most predominating or outward portion of the egg.

I am thinking about the warm receding and cool advancing in the shadow. I know as a fact that if you make your shadows too cool, they do not express the reflected light trying to make its way through to your eye, so they do not look transparent, and shadowy, just dead. I cannot think of a reason why the rule would be reversed in terms of temperatures in their coming and forward and back. Except one, but this is not a rule: Warm reflected light is usually at the furthest point, closest to the dark accent, because the egg in the shadow reflects the warmth of the table it is on; it will be predominantly warm in the part of the egg in the shadow that is closest to table, facing the table the most, that is 'further away' from you. But that does not mean it would not happen if the table was blue and the reflected light in question would thus be cool. IT would still recede. I think that what makes the shadow recede in both cases, is that the contrast between the warm and cool in the shadow, the contrast itself, the line of division, as being much lesser than the contrast or line of division between the light and the shadow. Where there is cool in the shadow, there is warmth, and vice verse, but its the contrast between these two, the degree which will determine how far or close it is relative to the light.
I would like to know where you read that quote, if you could share that I could help you more, so feel free to do so...

Read my text slowly and see if you can picture what I am saying, the ins and outs of the egg etc.Ken, wonderful course. If I am correct in this, I think that I can explain it. As you go back further in a shadow, you are more distant from the cool secondary light from the sky and the tertiary light bouncing up from the ground and around from vertical objects will warm up the objects deep in the shadow. This would not apply if the ground was a very dark and cool color (it is usually not) or the vertical objects were very cool colors (true for fir trees, but not for most trees, particularly near the ground below the canopy of leaves). A good person to ask would be James Gurney. In his book "Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter" on page 28, he says: "A clear sunny day has three different systems of illumination: the sun itself, the blue sky, and the reflected light from illuminated objects. The second two souces derive entirely from the first, and should be subordinated to it." I would explain this as: the further you go into the deep forest, the less the blue sky can penetrate because of the angle of the light and also, since the sky is warmer and less blue near the horizon, the light penetrating deeply into the forest will be much warmer that that of the sky directly above. You could take a look on his blog or just ask him at http://jamesgurney.com/site/. By the way, I know your Dad can only put up book references in the recommended list from NorthLight, but I consider this as one of the best art books I have ever bought and probably the best reference on light for painters that I know of; it is incredibly well written and easy to read. I look forward to the next 2 weeks. Stu

nougat
09-09-2012, 02:48 PM
thanks for the link stu.

i was so surprised. i actually bought this book for my eldest son when he was 10 years old...many years ago :)

chalet_dor
09-09-2012, 03:25 PM
You could take a look on his blog or just ask him at http://jamesgurney.com/site/. By the way, I know your Dad can only put up book references in the recommended list from NorthLight, but I consider this as one of the best art books I have ever bought and probably the best reference on light for painters that I know of; it is incredibly well written and easy to read. I look forward to the next 2 weeks. Stu

Thank you Stu. I just purchased from Amazon two of Gurney's books.........:clap:

HazelP
09-09-2012, 03:50 PM
Yes that looks a good book Stu. I have just ordered it from Amazon. I was hoping for a Kindle addition but none there - the shipping to New Zealand is almost as much as the book price!!!

Ken Instructor
09-09-2012, 04:02 PM
Ken, wonderful course. If I am correct in this, I think that I can explain it. As you go back further in a shadow, you are more distant from the cool secondary light from the sky and the tertiary light bouncing up from the ground and around from vertical objects will warm up the objects deep in the shadow. This would not apply if the ground was a very dark and cool color (it is usually not) or the vertical objects were very cool colors (true for fir trees, but not for most trees, particularly near the ground below the canopy of leaves).

Yes, it is not so much about which side has the cool light, and which side has the warm (in the shadow), because even in the light you can have warm and cool colors... it still separates from or comes out from everything happening in the shadow. Light is foreground material, shadow is background material, because the edge or contrast between these two overrides anything in the shadow. In fact, the opposite can be true in the original Leffel quote, if you take the highlight to be more pale and cooler than the warmer local tone of a face,- the highlight, being cooler or more pale, ALWAYS pops out more than the local warm tone of the face. An artist cannot possibly encapsulate all of the truths in art in one quote, these are more like guidelines, perhaps related to a certain context in a paragraph; if the quote was universal, that warm in the light advances, while cool recedes, then highlights would go back? It is not that simple, it simply isn't, it is a more complex system, and don't go for the flashy quotes (no particular criticism towards Leffel), but go for teachers that are willing to explain the system and its complexities, and don't be tempted or seduced by simple or superficial explanations. Leffel in fact is very meticulous on explaining the system of light and shadow, and I love it, but you have to take in the whole.

When Leffel refers more about warms and cools in the light, I think he means (take a face for instance), you have your forehead in the light but your temple as well in the same light. The light is hitting them equally, they are both at an equal angle to the light, the light is smack in the middle. Both will therefore be the same value and color if the local material is the same (skin). BUT, it may be hard to make the temple recede like that, so how do you help the illusion of depth? We slightly cool the temple, keeping the value as the forehead.

I have to give a webinar on light, it is such a complex issue and you will never really have a full command of your craft unless you command light.

I hope to have been helpful. I enjoy these discussions...

HazelP
09-09-2012, 04:21 PM
A lesson on light would be wonderful Ken.

Ken Instructor
09-09-2012, 04:56 PM
I wish I could know where the quote was read from so I can read the whole paragraph, I am very curious about the context in which the quote was used. I am not challenging it, I can see what he means, I know how he teaches, but I want to make sure where that quote is to see if I am missing something. I have the book OIL PAINTING SECRETS FROM A MASTER, of his, and I found it very helpful.

About the pic, I am not sure where I can find a pic explaining exactly what I am saying. Its more in the concept, I suppose. Google any pic of a shaded egg or of Leffel's paintings. But even here it does not work, you need to see an egg itself and examine it how the depth appears to be exaggerated depending on the light. I stare at things all day updating my knowledge. Its all around us. ASk me more about it if needed.

And one more thing, a key element to what I am doing in the webinar, is the idea that compositions do not exist in nature, and if that is true, what does that tell us about compositions and its problems? What therefore is composition? Is it what the subject is about? I call that the concept, because only we earthlings know what earth landscapes are from still lifes, or people from all these, because we paint what is familiar to us. So our sense that this is that and so on, is an acquired thing. The recognition of a particularly good value pattern regardless of what it represents, is a quality anyone in the universe could have, even if for me it could mean a dog, or for you a granny eating soup. I welcome discussion on this matter, because if paint what you see (whatever that means), is the best advice, then composition should be an automatic understanding, but as we know it is the hardest aspects of art, because what do we reference it with? Did we look under a tree or climb a mountain to see if the 9th symphony accurately represents a scene, how do we compare it?


Also, please, I encourage you sending me homework, so don't be shy....

Best,

Ken

Sgourlayart
09-09-2012, 05:08 PM
thanks for the link stu.

i was so surprised. i actually bought this book for my eldest son when he was 10 years old...many years ago :)Nougat, I think you bought him another James Gurney book, because the book I referenced was just published in 2010. James Gurney wrote the "Dinotopia" series and is considered the guru of "imaginative realism"; you probably bought your son one of those books. The book that I referenced is published in paperback by Andrews McMeal and is carried by Amazon. It is really a terrific book about color and light. To get his lighting correct in his illustrations of his imaginative landscapes with people and dinosaurs together he creates 3 dimensional models of the creatures, paints them and paints them after setting up all his lighting. His website is really cool and very informative for all representational artists in any medium. Stu

nougat
09-09-2012, 11:05 PM
Nougat, I think you bought him another James Gurney book, because the book I referenced was just published in 2010. James Gurney wrote the "Dinotopia" series and is considered the guru of "imaginative realism"; you probably bought your son one of those books. The book that I referenced is published in paperback by Andrews McMeal and is carried by Amazon. It is really a terrific book about color and light. To get his lighting correct in his illustrations of his imaginative landscapes with people and dinosaurs together he creates 3 dimensional models of the creatures, paints them and paints them after setting up all his lighting. His website is really cool and very informative for all representational artists in any medium. Stu


yes - you're right. sorry i did not make myself clear :) i had purchased dinotopia :)- when i clicked on the site all the pictures were dinotopia and that was the book i meant :D

beart
09-10-2012, 10:59 AM
Thank you Stu. I just purchased from Amazon two of Gurney's books.........:clap: Dor I just got notice that my Gurney book I pre ordered in March has shipped. That was a long wait but it was only 12.00 pre order but now I think it has went to 20. It was released last week. I don't know which ones you got. I already had one and look forward to this one.:clap:

pjbenson
09-10-2012, 04:14 PM
Ken, is this the thread we are supposed to use to upload homework?

Nora
09-10-2012, 05:57 PM
I wish I could know where the quote was read from so I can read the whole paragraph, I am very curious about the context in which the quote was used. I am not challenging it, I can see what he means, I know how he teaches, but I want to make sure where that quote is to see if I am missing something. I have the book OIL PAINTING SECRETS FROM A MASTER, of his, and I found it very helpful.

About the pic, I am not sure where I can find a pic explaining exactly what I am saying. Its more in the concept, I suppose. Google any pic of a shaded egg or of Leffel's paintings. But even here it does not work, you need to see an egg itself and examine it how the depth appears to be exaggerated depending on the light. I stare at things all day updating my knowledge. Its all around us. ASk me more about it if needed.

And one more thing, a key element to what I am doing in the webinar, is the idea that compositions do not exist in nature, and if that is true, what does that tell us about compositions and its problems? What therefore is composition? Is it what the subject is about? I call that the concept, because only we earthlings know what earth landscapes are from still lifes, or people from all these, because we paint what is familiar to us. So our sense that this is that and so on, is an acquired thing. The recognition of a particularly good value pattern regardless of what it represents, is a quality anyone in the universe could have, even if for me it could mean a dog, or for you a granny eating soup. I welcome discussion on this matter, because if paint what you see (whatever that means), is the best advice, then composition should be an automatic understanding, but as we know it is the hardest aspects of art, because what do we reference it with? Did we look under a tree or climb a mountain to see if the 9th symphony accurately represents a scene, how do we compare it?


Also, please, I encourage you sending me homework, so don't be shy....

Best,

Ken
Ken, you mentioned in your webinar that a painting usually has a frame around it (or at least there is an edge around the painting). I feel that in nature there is no end to the view it can go 360 degrees and be pleasing. A painting, to be pleasurable to the eye, needs balance between the edges, and therefore a good composition would have balance. A pleasing balance of form and value. I also think that is why many people don't like or understand abstract art, they are looking for balance.

beart
09-10-2012, 07:10 PM
Dor I just got notice that my Gurney book I pre ordered in March has shipped. That was a long wait but it was only 12.00 pre order but now I think it has went to 20. It was released last week. I don't know which ones you got. I already had one and look forward to this one.:clap:Dor the book I got was called Soliman
and Gurney put it together but it is the teaching of Soliman

chalet_dor
09-10-2012, 07:32 PM
Hi Beart

here is what I am getting.........1
"Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter"
Gurney, James; Paperback; $16.49
In Stock
Sold by: Amazon.com

: ))

Ken Instructor
09-10-2012, 08:15 PM
Yes Nora, because in paintings we see skies or foregrounds cropped by the limitation of the painting, with or without the frame; it has to end somewhere. You therefore have enclosed shapes that you do not have in nature where the image in front of you would be cropped, and this is why there cannot be compositions in nature. I am only trying to be logical about the matter, nature gives you the material for a painting, it does not just give it to you. And even if you put a blank frame in front of you cropping a scene, no matter how perfect the scene may be, you still have to convert it into a composition or arrange things.
Thanks for the comments.

chalet_dor
09-10-2012, 11:30 PM
Hello Ken

I am wondering if this is an example of what you were trying
to teach me in composition, showing depth, advancing and receding.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2012/224962-dors_example.jpg

If I have it all wrong it will not surprise me. dor:))

beart
09-11-2012, 12:16 AM
Hi Beart

here is what I am getting.........1
"Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter"
Gurney, James; Paperback; $16.49
In Stock
Sold by: Amazon.com

: )) I have the Color and Light and thought this was similar but it really is Solomon J. Solomon with new Introduction by James Gurney. I has a lot of glossy paintings in the center which I think you can take out. I started reading it and it is how to draw at the beginning and after the paintings another section on Oil painting. It is interesting in the introduction as it tells a story about Solomon.

beart
09-11-2012, 12:18 AM
Hello Ken

I am wondering if this is an example of what you were trying
to teach me in composition, showing depth, advancing and receding.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Sep-2012/224962-dors_example.jpg

If I have it all wrong it will not surprise me. dor:))
Beart here, I think that is great. I was going to use Monet's Turkeys:lol:

chalet_dor
09-11-2012, 01:31 AM
Hello Ken

I am wondering if this is an example of what you were trying
to teach me in composition, showing depth, advancing and receding.

If I have it all wrong it will not surprise me. dor:))

Sorry posted in wrong place! Have corrected it.........

pamshowcase
09-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Hey Ken,
Seems like a lot of confusion on what the homework lesson meant. I thought I "got it" with my Winslow Homer reference but then that is not really abstract shapes. I felt it had light, mid-tone, and dark values all connected together,with sky and water lightest. Hope you can clarify what you wanted, in particular about abstract shapes. Sorry to be dense.....
Pam

Ken Instructor
09-12-2012, 03:01 PM
About the homework. I would really prefer you painting your own composition, its a small sketch, get a good photo and do it. OR, get a photo of an old master and improve it, or move things to get effect. But I prefer you doing it yourself.


The homework is simple, its clear large, value masses, that look flat and solid from afar, but up close tobe able to see the slight value changes that make those masses 3D, WITHOUT destroying its 'shape-ness.' Look at the Sargent painted I posted in the original post, the people form a shape, but you can see individuals walking on different depth planes, one in front of the other....

If anyone else can explain it a different way, please help me out....

I wish you the best of luck.

Ken

Ken Instructor
09-12-2012, 03:29 PM
Dor,

In the car painting you posted, if you squint, the values of the tires of both cars, being disconnected and identical, therefore stack and therefore the mass is broken. One recedes and the other advances, but how would you change the values so that BOTH of them share the same unbroken flat value mass?

Your painting is an example of a painting with good depth, bad design. I will talk more about that, how to get both, and how the impressionists got better designs than depth.

The opposite of your case would be getting the two cars to be an obvious flat mass, but so obvious that one car does not break from the other in 3D, one in front of the other, because there would be a failure to vary the values just slightly in order for the eye to read the plane separation; the trick is to do this while preserving the design, just like it would be to get a good design AND have good depth. This is one of the BIGGEST golden nuggets I could possibly teach, and I have not heard it anywhere else. Many artists just do it because they FEEL it looks right, but I have never heard it verbalized before.

KEn

chalet_dor
09-12-2012, 04:58 PM
Dor,

In the car painting you posted, if you squint, the values of the tires of both cars, being disconnected and identical, therefore stack and therefore the mass is broken. One recedes and the other advances, but how would you change the values so that BOTH of them share the same unbroken flat value mass?

Your painting is an example of a painting with good depth, bad design. I will talk more about that, how to get both, and how the impressionists got better designs than depth.

The opposite of your case would be getting the two cars to be an obvious flat mass, but so obvious that one car does not break from the other in 3D, one in front of the other, because there would be a failure to vary the values just slightly in order for the eye to read the plane separation; the trick is to do this while preserving the design, just like it would be to get a good design AND have good depth. This is one of the BIGGEST golden nuggets I could possibly teach, and I have not heard it anywhere else. Many artists just do it because they FEEL it looks right, but I have never heard it verbalized before.

KEn

Thank you Ken. However what you have said, is like me understanding algebra or calculious. :crying: Please take my picture and show me what you mean.
Maybe then I will comprehend.............dorian

susanc
09-12-2012, 05:20 PM
Maybe it boils down to a monitor problem? I don't know, but I thought I'd give that theory a try. The more important question is--is my understanding of your concept correct? :crossfingers:

On the computer monitor I use, the group of people in the example painting by Sargent look like a dark overall shape and it's almost impossible to see any value nuances within that shape. Then I saw it on my laptop yesterday and the value changes inside the dark shape of people were so much more apparent.

Normal look:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/1697-homework.jpg

The following version is DRASTICALLY ALTERED to exaggerate the value changes inside the dark mass shape of people. (This is over-done so you can see the value differences inside the dark shape better, but the integrity of the overall dark shape might be somewhat destroyed now because the values aren't as close together anymore!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2012/1697-homework2.jpg

If every figure inside that dark shape was the exact same value, there would be no feeling of recession into the depth of the picture plane. Sargent corrected this problem by keeping his values very close to each other for all the figures inside the large dark shape. The darkest figures appear closest to us, those slightly lighter in value seem a bit further away, etc. Still the overall impression of the dark group shape is intact because the values are kept so close.

This can also be done with light values, such as Monet's turkeys. The problem with that painting as an example was that Monet didn't do the value shift for recession as well with a couple of turkeys, I think?

Or did I completely miss your point altogether, Ken? :eek:

chalet_dor
09-12-2012, 05:37 PM
Hi

For sure we are going to have a very interesting class on Saturday........
I can see Ken smiling all over the place...............: ))

susanc
09-12-2012, 06:03 PM
I really hope you're right and we're not making him tear his hair out!

I think Ken is so brilliant and I learned a lot last Sat. Some of the questions people have asked Ken since then made me realize that there are a number of huge gaps in my knowledge base. Even though I'm just taking baby steps compared to them (and especially Ken!), it's a great opportunity to learn things I probably never would have thought about otherwise.

nougat
09-13-2012, 12:20 AM
susan - that's how i understood the brief too.
following it was a different story...:/

nougat
09-13-2012, 12:21 AM
susan - thank you for the very clear explanation :)

Sgourlayart
09-13-2012, 09:55 AM
susan - thank you for the very clear explanation :)Susan, I also thank you for your clear explanation and for reposting the lightened Sargent painting to emphasize the variegation in tone in the mass of figures in the river. I think I get exactly what Ken wants, and the black and white images that I posted of my own paintings were not what he was looking for. I guess a picture really is worth a thousand words. Looking forward to Saturday's class. With little time left, I will try and find another of my paintings with better massed values and post the black and white image as my homework. Stu

susanc
09-13-2012, 10:50 AM
If it's right, you're welcome; if I'm wrong, I'm sorry! :)

Seeing that painting on a different monitor was such a paradigm shift for me! All the individual shapes and values inside that large dark mass are all gorgeous in their own right.

Stu, your paintings are jaw droppers. I'm glad to get to see them, but so bummed to post my cartoon-like homework right after them. Nougat, I couldn't believe how you pulled something like that (your beautifully rendered flowers) off so quickly!

Sgourlayart
09-13-2012, 11:04 AM
If it's right, you're welcome; if I'm wrong, I'm sorry! :)

Seeing that painting on a different monitor was such a paradigm shift for me! All the individual shapes and values inside that large dark mass are all gorgeous in their own right.

Stu, your paintings are jaw droppers. I'm glad to get to see them, but so bummed to post my cartoon-like homework right after them. Nougat, I couldn't believe how you pulled something like that (your beautifully rendered flowers) off so quickly!Thanks for your compliments, Susan. Every one of us is here to learn something and sometimes each of us will get an "aha! moment" like yours; sharing that insight is what this site is all about. Keep learning, keep painting and keep sharing your insights. And do not be bummed by your posted works; this is not a painting contest, but an endeavor for all of us to improve our art. Stu

nougat
09-13-2012, 01:16 PM
thank you susan, for the kind compliment. i was actually quite pleased with how it turned out - which is unusual for me cos i mess up most of the time :)

it wasn't quick really. right after the lesson i was thinking about and studying the pictures etc . and reading the posts etc and seeing what everyone else was contributing to help in my understanding. . after much googling images i chose a suitable photo. as i use watercolours i have to have it all planned out beforehand. when i had that all done in my head i could sort of visualize what i intended and i painted the picture
i have to go through all that every time i paint which is actually very time consuming...only when i have a visualization in my head can i start the painting. and more often than not i mess up :)

as stu said this isn't a competition. enjoy your painting, do your best to learn and improve (thank you jo and ken) we are all after all on a journey. i am so thankful for all the lovely people here on wet canvas who 'accompany' me on my way.

MarrtyE
09-13-2012, 04:21 PM
Great first class. Clear explanations and great examples.
My computer had a glitch when Ken was talking about Courbet and by the time I reconnected I missed Courbet's role as father of the impressionists. Can anyone help me with that?

pamshowcase
09-13-2012, 05:51 PM
thank you susan, for the kind compliment. i was actually quite pleased with how it turned out - which is unusual for me cos i mess up most of the time :)

it wasn't quick really. right after the lesson i was thinking about and studying the pictures etc . and reading the posts etc and seeing what everyone else was contributing to help in my understanding. . after much googling images i chose a suitable photo. as i use watercolours i have to have it all planned out beforehand. when i had that all done in my head i could sort of visualize what i intended and i painted the picture
i have to go through all that every time i paint which is actually very time consuming...only when i have a visualization in my head can i start the painting. and more often than not i mess up :)

as stu said this isn't a competition. enjoy your painting, do your best to learn and improve (thank you jo and ken) we are all after all on a journey. i am so thankful for all the lovely people here on wet canvas who 'accompany' me on my way.

Good thing it's NOT a competition, my husband just pointed out to me I omitted half of the second boat and also put the 3rd person in the wrong boat (maybe in the water). Sorry Winslow, Ken, Jo, everyone....you've got your work cut out for you Ken. Don't quit us, Pam

Ken Instructor
09-13-2012, 07:46 PM
Susan,

It sounds like you got it, but careful, in your version that you changed, though you see more value difference between the people, they still hold a mass. Why? BEcuase you made everything else around it so bleached out, that no matter how much contrast you have within the people, the contrast between the people and their surroundings, like the ocean, etc, is so much greater than the contrast amongst the people,- the value mass still holds, because its all relative. So even from afar you should be able to detach a good solid flat mass. And yes, it is hard to find ideal paintings for these cases.

Keep up the good work!!!!

Ken Instructor
09-13-2012, 07:51 PM
Nougat, what painting are you referring to?

Don't worry guys, I will go through your homework during the beginning of the class. I just hope this is understood because the next step is color, and how it affects the painting. But you have to understand the problem purely with value alone first.

nougat
09-14-2012, 12:23 AM
my homework which is posted in the homework thread, ken :D

it's not that great - susan is very kind :) imo it's just maybe ok... :)

Colorix
09-15-2012, 04:00 PM
I like to think that this is how Monet started his paintings. It is from one of his waterlily paintings, one of the big long ones. And that corner looks just started, with lots of canvas showing.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Sep-2012/117343-Monet-unfin-detail-c.jpg

Ken Instructor
09-15-2012, 04:11 PM
Homework for today was posted in the exact same homework thread as the first week. Just look for the most recent posting.

Good luck.

Ken Instructor
09-15-2012, 04:16 PM
Is there any questions as to the previous lesson, with value? Do you all understand the problem of synthesizing value and depth? Now it is color, through depth, and design.

Do not worry, this is one of the most sophisticated lessons in the art world, it really is. And you might as well get munching on it from now on. I do not expect you to have it nailed, but at least do understand what it is all about.

Send questions,

Ken

(any constructive criticism on the webinars are welcome)

pamshowcase
09-15-2012, 04:27 PM
Great class again Ken.. For me the slides lagged behind your comments quite a bit, so it was hard to see the correlation as I was always playing catch-up. I would like to follow your blog, is it posted or do I need invited?
See you next week, Pam

Tonalist
09-15-2012, 05:30 PM
Ken.. Are you planning on posting your finished painting here on wetcanvas?
During the end of the painting you said you would post it on your blog.. I have no Idea where that is located.

woody

Shadow_2010
09-15-2012, 05:43 PM
Hi, I'm lost and your comment that this is the same place as last week doesn't help me as I missed the first lesson being out of town. Sounds like others have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please be more specifie with the location of these two areas and how to get there?
Peggysue1971
Thank you

pamshowcase
09-15-2012, 06:09 PM
Hi, I'm lost and your comment that this is the same place as last week doesn't help me as I missed the first lesson being out of town. Sounds like others have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please be more specifie with the location of these two areas and how to get there?
Peggysue1971
Thank you
Hi PeggySue,
The homework is listed in the thread below this one Titles Homework Week 1 -Secrets of the old Masters post #46. I will have to wait for him to post where his Blog can be accessed also.
Pam

Ken Instructor
09-15-2012, 09:08 PM
I should not used the word blog, I meant right here, aahaha maybe I see this as my blog, but it isn't technically. I will post the finished version here, perhaps tomorrow.

About the video not being synchronized I gotta check that, I suspected something like that may have happened. I apologize for that. I hope it was just one person, not from my side. Yikes!!!!

pamshowcase
09-15-2012, 09:44 PM
I should not used the word blog, I meant right here, aahaha maybe I see this as my blog, but it isn't technically. I will post the finished version here, perhaps tomorrow.

About the video not being synchronized I gotta check that, I suspected something like that may have happened. I apologize for that. I hope it was just one person, not from my side. Yikes!!!!

It was just a minor distraction, but I know the improvemypaintings guys have high standards and felt you should know, especially if you can sync it for the video. See you on the "blog" Pam

Rosemarie
09-16-2012, 06:23 AM
Thank you Ken for the second class! To learn how values and colours work in paintings is fantastic. It is the icing on Johannes' cake. I now understand why I both like and dislike the Monet paintings. I prefer more value contrast than some of his paintings have.

I will not be able to attend next week:crying: :crying: but i will by the downloads:D I am looking forward to it!

spudsmom
09-16-2012, 11:31 AM
Hi Ken,
I didn't have any trouble with the video yesterday. It was great.

Thank you,
Sherri

Shadow_2010
09-16-2012, 07:55 PM
Pamshowcase, thank you for your help. However, I still cannot find the homework for week I or II in this thread. I went back to the original page to get here and looked for "Homework" and found threads for Jo's classes not Ken's. Post #46 in this thread is nothing about homework. I haven't seen the finished painting yet either but it's still too soon for that. Peggysue1971

chalet_dor
09-16-2012, 08:12 PM
Pamshowcase, thank you for your help. However, I still cannot find the homework for week I or II in this thread. I went back to the original page to get here and looked for "Homework" and found threads for Jo's classes not Ken's. Post #46 in this thread is nothing about homework. I haven't seen the finished painting yet either but it's still too soon for that. Peggysue1971

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1249592

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1249592&page=4

Hope these links helps...........: ))

nougat
09-17-2012, 12:20 AM
has ken posted the finished painting?

Pinklady219
09-17-2012, 01:48 AM
Ken, will you begin a new thread for Homework Week 2? Or shall we use the week 1 thread? thanks

Ken Instructor
09-17-2012, 04:50 PM
I am almost through with that finished painting, hold your horses guys.
wink.

Ken

susanc
09-18-2012, 04:00 PM
Both of these books are recommended by Johannes here (http://improvemypaintings.com/recommended%20books.html).

Maybe I'm taking too simplistic a viewpoint, but I thought I'd share this with anyone who is just starting out in landscape painting. This excerpt is from Carlson's Guide to Landscape Painting by John F. Carlson, p. 64:

"One of the most important truths bearing upon receding color out-of-doors is this: It is the yellow that fades out of a landscape as it recedes from the foreground. This means not only yellow itself, but the yellow in all mixtures, such as brown, warm red, orange, etc. Our green, for example, will range from a sappy yellow-green in the foreground to quite a cool green in the middle distance and gradually diminish in its yellowness as it goes farther back, until it turns to a faint emerald in the distance; and this emerald will become a faint greenish-blue at the horizon. Again, it is the yellow that fades out of receding planes. As the yellow fades out, the violets and blues seem to increase in intensity."

Carlson is good at pointing out these things, but one of my favorites for putting his theories into visual diagrams is Margaret Kessler. These examples are from Painting Better Landscapes on pages 84 & 85, illustrating what Carlson said about the trees losing their yellow quality as they recede. Note that every color becomes less and less yellow from left to right (going into the "distance" so she mixes these colors into the local green color for each more distant tree.) She also illustrates this color recession concept with clouds and dirt roads--but you'll have to get the book to see those examples! ;) (But these are my oh so lovely arrows!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Sep-2012/1697-img398colorrecession.jpg

This example is different from our last class because she is lightening the value besides changing the color temps, but focus only on how the yellow component of the green color mixture gradually disappears from the green of the tree as it appears to go into the distance.

This was basically the effect I was trying to find in the paintings for this week's homework. I think though, that Mitchell in Sunset Glow, California turned this theory on its head in his background because he was depicting a sunset, not normal daylight conditions? Or maybe he was an expressive--not a realist--painter? But I thought his foreground and middle ground were good examples of color recession, though.

chalet_dor
09-18-2012, 07:12 PM
Thank you very much Susanc

I will copy and paste this and put it with my notes.......all about color and value. Oh so much to learn and absorb.

susanc
09-18-2012, 08:11 PM
Oh so much to learn and absorb.

I was reading Carlson's book and when I read about trees (something like make them blueish on top, use warmer colors to make center come forward, cooler colors to make back leaves recede, etc, etc, etc), I almost quit painting because of information overload--I couldn't imagine being able to do it all with one tree! You're right, Dor--there is so much that is involved in landscape painting.

We will never be bored!

Tonalist
09-18-2012, 09:33 PM
@susanc... re post 117..
this is a great post.. I have a diagram in another book that also explained this same concept and was considering posting it, but yours did a great job..
it did wonders for my understanding. just remember after the yellow disappears, then the red, then the blue if you could see that far. I think Jo said in one of his courses.. if you could see far enough everything would turn to a no. 5 grey. ( I think it was Jo? Yikes)

woody

Sgourlayart
09-18-2012, 09:39 PM
@susanc... re post 117..
this is a great post.. I have a diagram in another book that also explained this same concept and was considering posting it, but yours did a great job..
it did wonders for my understanding. just remember after the yellow disappears, then the red, then the blue if you could see that far. I think Jo said in one of his courses.. if you could see far enough everything would turn to a no. 5 grey. ( I think it was Jo? Yikes)

woodyAgree Woody. Excellent post and explanation, Susan! Margaret Kessler's book is also one of my favorites, exactly because of her clear illustrations. John Carlson's book suffers from the illustrations being only in black and white, but it drives home all his points about value structure.
Stu

pamshowcase
09-19-2012, 12:07 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscan1greyscale.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscan1grayscale_vs_desaturate.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscandesaturate.jpg
Here is a comparison example...I think I will avoid desaturate.
Thanks to Arlene for this info.

5-21-2004, 03:44 PM - [add post to favorites]

arlene
A WC! Legend
Lawn Guylind


Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 21,389


Re: Desaturate vs. Graysale Mode
here i've taken an old drawing of mine and did it both as desaturate and greyscale to show you the huge difference with light colors...i hate to admit it, but when judy is right, she's right

the first is a scan of my original drawing.

the second is grayscale and the third is desaturate.
Attached Images

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscan1grayscale_vs_desaturate.jpg

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:20 PM
Not all cool colors by themselves recede, warm colors can recede if there is a stronger value contrast in front, or a stronger temperature contrast etc. Otherwise, how do you explain sunsets? Yes the sky feels more energetic and more present, but compared to the lands masses thar are relatively cooler, they still come forth relative to the sky. This is the example susan mentioned. Other depth indicators are linear perspective, receding values, etc.
Ken

KennethVloothuisart
09-19-2012, 02:26 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/1025272-Finished_Painting.jpg

Here I post the finished Monet painting. I fiddled with it a little more, but then got bored with it. It is so easy to work and impressionist painting forever...

chalet_dor
09-19-2012, 05:16 PM
Thank you Ken! You have worked your behind off!
see you Saturday.................: ))

Sgourlayart
09-20-2012, 09:21 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscan1greyscale.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscan1grayscale_vs_desaturate.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscandesaturate.jpg
Here is a comparison example...I think I will avoid desaturate.
Thanks to Arlene for this info.

5-21-2004, 03:44 PM - [add post to favorites]

arlene
A WC! Legend
Lawn Guylind


Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 21,389


Re: Desaturate vs. Graysale Mode
here i've taken an old drawing of mine and did it both as desaturate and greyscale to show you the huge difference with light colors...i hate to admit it, but when judy is right, she's right

the first is a scan of my original drawing.

the second is grayscale and the third is desaturate.
Attached Images

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Sep-2012/174457-daffodilfinalscan1grayscale_vs_desaturate.jpgPam, where did you find this posted? Can you reference the thread in Wet Canvas so the rest of us can find it? I had never used the desaturate tool before, but obviously it works much differently from the black and white conversion. Thanks, Stu.

pamshowcase
09-20-2012, 10:54 AM
Pam, where did you find this posted? Can you reference the thread in Wet Canvas so the rest of us can find it? I had never used the desaturate tool before, but obviously it works much differently from the black and white conversion. Thanks, Stu.
It was a route
1-googled grayscale compared to desaturate
2-got a link to a wc thread from 2004 I think a discussion they were having then.
3- found this post from Arlene.
4-dont know how to get link into here but I have the post in my WC favorites.
will try if someone tells me how
Pam

pamshowcase
09-20-2012, 11:07 AM
Well, engage brain and try the simplest solution, hope copy and paste works.
Pam

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2341205

nougat
09-20-2012, 11:28 AM
lol :D

nougat
09-20-2012, 11:28 AM
lol :D

Sgourlayart
09-20-2012, 01:00 PM
Well, engage brain and try the simplest solution, hope copy and paste works.
Pam

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2341205 Thanks, Pam. This worked and the thread is interesting. I do not know whether the "Convert to Black and White" under enhance in Photoshop is the same as "Grayscale Mode", but I will find out. To get into the thread, you just click on the link and move around in the thread--super simple. Stu

susanc
09-20-2012, 03:19 PM
I'm stunned! In a good way. I made a deliberate decision to use the word "desaturated" instead of the generic term of grayscale--just in case I'd done it wrong. And look what happened! (You guys definitely don't let anything slip past you!) :thumbsup:

This is the simplified way that Adobe explains their "desaturate" command from here (http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7644a.html):
Desaturate colors
"The Desaturate command converts a color image to grayscale values, but leaves the image in the same color mode. For example, it assigns equal red, green, and blue values to each pixel in an RGB image. The lightness value of each pixel does not change.
This command has the same effect as setting Saturation to 100 in the Hue/Saturation adjustment."

On the other hand, the grayscale command changes the lightness value of the pixels to try to replicate how our eye sees. It produces lighter pixels for yellow, etc. using mathematical formulas. Still, it seemed to me it might be a bit too light compared to the original? (Individual results may vary--we all see differently!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8203499&postcount=7

Finally, the above post about this dilemma appealed to me on sort of a scientific visual level. In brief, Bill describes this post and his attached charts:

:heart: I have wrestled with this for a while myself and converting the Munsell swatches really demonstrated the difference and the effect of chroma in the desaturation function while the grayscale conversion keeps all the same values in a row the same on conversion.

Bill
:heart: :music: :heart:

Thanks, everyone!

chalet_dor
09-20-2012, 04:12 PM
Good detective work! Thanks............

Sgourlayart
09-20-2012, 05:15 PM
I'm stunned! In a good way. I made a deliberate decision to use the word "desaturated" instead of the generic term of grayscale--just in case I'd done it wrong. And look what happened! (You guys definitely don't let anything slip past you!) :thumbsup:

This is the simplified way that Adobe explains their "desaturate" command from here (http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7644a.html):
Desaturate colors
"The Desaturate command converts a color image to grayscale values, but leaves the image in the same color mode. For example, it assigns equal red, green, and blue values to each pixel in an RGB image. The lightness value of each pixel does not change.
This command has the same effect as setting Saturation to 100 in the Hue/Saturation adjustment."

On the other hand, the grayscale command changes the lightness value of the pixels to try to replicate how our eye sees. It produces lighter pixels for yellow, etc. using mathematical formulas. Still, it seemed to me it might be a bit too light compared to the original? (Individual results may vary--we all see differently!)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8203499&postcount=7

Finally, the above post about this dilemma appealed to me on sort of a scientific visual level. In brief, Bill describes this post and his attached charts:



Thanks, everyone!Fascinating, Susan. Thanks for posting the thread for this. I guess that I have been correct all along in using the black and white or "grayscale" conversion tool for this. Of course you do realize that Johannes uses a different grayscale numbering than the Munsell system; it is 10 values but with white as "1" and black as "10". And actually it is not your eye, but your visual cortex that translates the input from your retina. Stu

LadyMadonna
09-20-2012, 08:28 PM
I love your painting Ken and the way the colours bring us in and back out again.

Eagle-eye
09-21-2012, 05:00 PM
Cameras do lie. I am posting the uncropped painting which is the closest in color to the original. The cropped version seems to have gotten less saturated in color. Well here goes, hope I had some understanding of what to do. Picture had to be resized by Wet Canvas and now color looks different but you will get the idea I guess. Dee

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/190227-Lesson_for_9-22-2012-His_Masters_Course_with_Kenneth_Vloothuis_002.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/190227-Lesson_His_Masters_Course-9-22-2012.jpg

KennethVloothuisart
09-21-2012, 05:28 PM
I might a well address tomorrow during class.

Eagle-eye
09-21-2012, 11:00 PM
Looking forward to your critique Ken. The left side gave me lots of trouble as well as the green mountain. Didn't quite know how to handle that either.
Dee:)

Eagle-eye
09-22-2012, 04:04 PM
Thank you Ken for a very informative class today your 3rd Lesson on the Masters.
Boy, do I now know that my painting put your eyes out! :) Wanted it to be seen across the room. Gosh, it blinded you in Canada :) :)Practice, practice and read my Brain and Brushwork books. I play music so I know about practice and haven't applied it to my painting. But will do so now.
Thank you again for this wonderful informative course.
Dee
USA

mickisew
09-22-2012, 04:24 PM
Thank you for the informative class, Ken. I look forward to the next course offered. Micki

KennethVloothuisart
09-22-2012, 07:51 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Sep-2012/1025272-Finished_Painting_1_-_Copy.jpg

Here is the finished version of the painting, I hope I got the water to move and to make sense as water.

I apologize if I did not get through your homework during class. I do not know why they do not show up in the photoshop, it seems they disappear. Let me take a quick break and I will continue on with the comments and critiques.

Thanks for your support, I hope you enjoyed the course.

Kenneth.

KennethVloothuisart
09-22-2012, 09:12 PM
Cameras do lie. I am posting the uncropped painting which is the closest in color to the original. The cropped version seems to have gotten less saturated in color. Well here goes, hope I had some understanding of what to do. Picture had to be resized by Wet Canvas and now color looks different but you will get the idea I guess. Dee

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/190227-Lesson_for_9-22-2012-His_Masters_Course_with_Kenneth_Vloothuis_002.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Sep-2012/190227-Lesson_His_Masters_Course-9-22-2012.jpg

I did not realise it was a mountain in the far distance, what I would do is cool it as it recedes, like the top part. If you want to suggest some sky very sublty, go even cooler.

Eagle-eye
09-22-2012, 10:10 PM
Thank you Ken for your critique I was wondering how I could salvage it.
Dee
USA

jmcedeno
09-23-2012, 12:08 PM
AWESOME ! Ken, your version is much better congratulations. I hope you'll continue with more classes soon.

Pinklady219
09-28-2012, 09:25 AM
Hi Ken,
When you were speaking about "moving water," I just couldn't see it as NOT moving. (maybe wrong brain action here) In fact, all the water looked to me as if it were all moving. I tried to paint diffused areas in the water that you spoke about please see attachment. I did this in watercolor even though you said it would be more difficult. thank you Carol:o

nougat
09-28-2012, 01:32 PM
i painted this (acrylics)...didn't notice you said REFLECTIONS till it was too late...:(

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Sep-2012/15364-IMG_5043.JPG

(sorry for the double post i also posted in the critique thread)

nougat
09-30-2012, 12:38 AM
i painted this (acrylics)...didn't notice you said REFLECTIONS till it was too late...:(

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Sep-2012/15364-IMG_5043.JPG

(sorry for the double post i also posted in the critique thread)

oh no!!
i posted it in the WRONG THREAD!!

i'm not gonna TRIPLE post that's for sure...:o :o :o

Ken Instructor
10-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Hi Ken,
When you were speaking about "moving water," I just couldn't see it as NOT moving. (maybe wrong brain action here) In fact, all the water looked to me as if it were all moving. I tried to paint diffused areas in the water that you spoke about please see attachment. I did this in watercolor even though you said it would be more difficult. thank you Carol:o


A frozen stiff image cannot move, what you are referring to is that it looked like water the is supposed to move, but you can still see it as being stuck, like the day the earth froze. Ultimately, still imagery is still imagery, but you can reduce the effect of stiffness by playing the eye's optical devices to make it look for the form and edges, but it fails to, because then it reads it as movement. When you get the recording, if you want to, go very slowly through the slides and look closer. Some images give the idea of movement more than others.

tennisqueen
11-01-2012, 12:23 AM
I missed your classes, are we able to purchase the videos of your classes?
Thanks:)
Judy

Johannes Instructor
11-08-2012, 07:14 PM
I missed your classes, are we able to purchase the videos of your classes?
Thanks:)
Judy
The recordings were submitted to Northlight shortly after the course ended. It is in their hands now.

mikestanduk
07-24-2013, 07:51 AM
Ken

I really enjoyed this course but thought you were a bit too impressed with Sargent's paintings.

Until yesterday when I visited the Lady Lever art gallery. Mainly known for it's pre raphaelite collection.

Taking up virtually one whole wall was Sargent's "On his holidays" - its nearly 8ft wide. When you are near it the portrait of the lad is superb but when you stand back the water comes alive. I couldn't believe it.

So you were right all along.

Thanks

Mike