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barriespapa
06-21-2012, 12:18 PM
Hi all,
In his video "solutions"Richard stresses the use of neutrals. Are neutrals greys that lean to either of the primary colors?
Since I have totally failed in the color test that was on a thread here a couple of weeks ago.( 109) score I seem to be totally lost when it comes to picking out neutrals. Since I have a full monty of great americans surely I must have some that are classified as neutrals. Can anyone give me suggestions that will help pick them out? I know I could call the manufacturer and ask him which ones they are, but I guess I must want to look inadequate to a whole bunch of artists rather than one, go figure.
would also be nice to have a little info on when and where they sould be used etc. It is an area that I have not seen mentioned very often if at all in any of my videos and reading materials. Perhaps there is a paricular thread in the learning section someone is aware of. thank in advance for any help
David

Davkin
06-21-2012, 12:29 PM
I personally find the use of the term "neutral" confusing. I beleive all they mean by neutral is a color that is grayed down. You can't make a saturated color stand out if all the colors around it are saturated also, so you need some grays to give the saturated color something to contrast against. To me, technically something that is neutral would have no color in it at all, a pure gray but I know that's not what Mckinley is saying. Most color wheels have an area in the center that shows grayed down hues.

David

westcoast_Mike
06-21-2012, 01:13 PM
From his Blog

Nearly a year ago in the August 06, 2007 blog, I addressed how important a section of “neutrals” is to my pastel palette. These are weaker intensity hues, often looking greyer than the pure intense hues of their origin color family

So what does this mean for you? A set he often points to is Giraults set of greys. Great American also has a set of greys I suspect you should find similar. Dakota's site will give you the color name\number for these.

DAK723
06-21-2012, 01:22 PM
I agree that neutrals is a fairly vaque term. But I am sure that each person would have their own dividing line as to where a particular color becomes a "gray". I think just realizing that each color can go from a bright intense color to a more and more grayed down color until it becomes a gray is the important thing to realize and utilize in your painting.

The easiest way to create neutrals is to mix complementary colors. Try mixing a few together and see what you come up with. Usually they will indeed lean slightly towards one of the original colors - that's usually a more interesting color than if you were to mix pure grays.

Many pastel brands do not have many grays - that is why the specific gray sets (Ludwig and Mt. Vision are another two) are often mentioned and recommended by pastel artists. Many brands of pastel just make lines of colors that add white to make the lighter tints and black to make the darker shades, but these usually aren't particularly gray.

My guess is that you are already using neutralized colors in your work as I don't recall your paintings being unnaturally bright and saturated. Just keep in mind that a contrast between brighter, intense color with duller, more grayed color is usually a good mix.

Don

Donna T
06-21-2012, 01:55 PM
Hi David - I think it's hard to classify which colors are neutrals because what is used as a neutral in one painting may not work as a neutral in another - it all depends on what is surrounding a color at any particular time. If you think of the color of a hayfield in winter it's not pure gold or violet or green it is a subtle combination of all of those and the result is what I think of as neutral; a quiet, subdued color that is hard to define (and even harder to paint!) You are so lucky to have the Full Monty! I only have one set of GA's and according to the little sample swatches I made I would call these colors neutrals (others may disagree) 170.4, 210.3, 350.5 Also 275.3 and 275.4 look like violets but they are dusty and dull compared to some of the other violets so they could be used as neutrals.

allydoodle
06-21-2012, 03:04 PM
Hi David, great advice already. I know you have the full Monty Great American (lucky you!). I have three smaller sets, and one of them is their grey set. The colors are:

210.0 Earl
210.2 Earl
210.4 Earl
220.0 Dorian
220.2 Dorian
220.4 Dorian
245.0 Church Mouse
245.2 Church Mouse
245.4 Church Mouse
255.0 Green Grey
255.2 Green Grey
255.4 Green Grey
265.0 Smokey Rose
265.2 Smokey Rose
265.4 Smokey Rose
270.0 Violet Grey
270.3 Violet Grey
270.6 Violet Grey

I would pull these out and put them together so that you can see what they look like alone as a set. This actually is my favorite grey set, the colors are georgous. They might not look as interesting mixed in with your other colors and you might not use them because of that. I know McKinley has his neutrals separate for this very reason. I try to do the same, though sometimes things get a bit mixed up. It does help, and it makes me want to use the neutrals because the colors really are beautiful and muted.

I also have the Mount Visions Thunderstorm Grey set, I highly recommend it. The Giraults are a beautiful pastel, their grey set looks great. I've heard mixed reviews about the Ludwig grey set, but I keep on liking the colors whenever I look at it, so eventually I may give it a try.

Think of greys as neutrals, colors not as saturated as the more pigmented, intense colors are. They can be used very effectively to create distance, as well as to create a visual soft edge. In reality an edge might be hard because of the way it is painted, but because the values are closer and the colors less intense, an edge can appear to be soft and melt away. Just another technique to add to the arsenal.....

I've learned to love my greys, and after typing this response I'm thinking I just may rearrange some pastels to organize the greys better. Thanks for the push :D !

Colorix
06-21-2012, 03:27 PM
All art terms tend to be confusing, as people assign different meanings to them...

I use "colour biased neutrals", for example, instead of 'grey', as to me 'grey' is a mixture of black and white. A "colour biased neutral" tends to be either earth colours, or a mixture of two or more bright pigments.

Then there are colours that are more or less neutralized. Take red as an example. There is really bright primary red. Then you can have a slightly muted red, but it is still definitely red. A more muted red (for example an earth read) tends to be less easily called a red, it looks more reddish brownish (now we are in the realm of neutrals). If we mix some green into it, it can become rather grey, with a slight tendency towards red, and then we're among the very neutral neutrals, but still with a slight colour bias. Mix a bit more green into it, and it will lean towards green more than it leans towards red, and we have a neutral with a green bias.

Anything that isn't pure bright pigment at full strength is neutralized to some degree. White neutralizes, as does grey and black, and complementaries. There is no clear dividing line, it is all gradual.

LRene
06-21-2012, 03:36 PM
Hi David, Don't let the color acuity test throw you, I took it on three different computors . My scores varied from 0 to over 60. It really seems to depend on your monitors calibration.

jackiesimmonds
06-21-2012, 04:15 PM
David best way to learn about neutrals is to get out some books on COLOUR from the library........not a book about pastels, but about colour specifically. There is bound to be comment in about neutrals.

if you were working with oils or acrylics in a class you would be taught how to mix neutrals, usually starting with, as suggested above, mixing two complementary colours together, and then going either darker or lighter with that mix.

More tricky with pastels since your colours are all premixed for you.

Learn about the theory of neutrals, and how to use them effectively by doing LOTS of reading. then examine your sets.

adventureartist
06-21-2012, 10:06 PM
Get the book " Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green" by Michael Wilcox. Fifteen bucks on Amazon, used. Excellent read on colors and color mixing for all mediums. Lots to learn in color theory, so take your time and try not to get frustrated. Art is a life time of learning.
It's one reason a lot of us do oils and other mediums also, it helps with our abilities to comprehend and learn to think about how to handle color mixing, complementing AND how to use and make neutrals.

japonaise
06-21-2012, 11:48 PM
RMcK uses a lot of low and medium intensity colors so that his details pop. And he enjoys ethereal compositions inspired by the misty forest primeval of Oregon. I recommend Nita Leland's Confident Color. She really helps to translate color (and the color wheel) from theory into practice. David, do you have some inexpensive acrylics to use for color mixing experiments? There are lots of exercises in Leland's book and she includes ideas for creating your own "neutrals" based on your personal color palette preferences. Once you have mixed some colors in acrylic your Full Monte GAs will evolve from being an enigma into "oh, now I get it!" J

barriespapa
06-22-2012, 12:01 AM
Wow I am totally overwhelmed with the response to this thread It will take me a month to reply to you all:D
David I think that the term is really My only mistake and I am feeling a bit silly as so many of the artists responded so sincerely with a lot of information that I am aware of.
Mike thanks for your response.
Don thanks for your help on this and yes you are corrrect I use greyed colors in my paintings my mistake is that I had never heard them referred to as neutrals and if they are quite grey in color I have a very hard time to tell wich color they are leaning toward.
Donna thanks kindly for your explaination of neutrals
Chris You have come up with super info here I have been using green grey quite frequently in my landscapes. all the colors in your grey set have at least two and some 3 more values in each color that you mentioned.
Thanks ever so much taking the time to pass this on to me.
Charlie you explanation as always is very accurate and helpful and as you stated when the mix becomes more grey than red or green then I am at a loss to tell if it is red bias or green bias.
Lrene I am afraid I did it three times and came up with 3 scores in the hundreds and once as low as 90:D the scary part is everytime I did it I thought i had it aced.
Jackie thanks for taking the time from your day to respond to my thread
As I remarked earlier the term nuetrals is what threw me of I have been aware of the proccess of mixing complimentary colors, but had never heard them referred to as neutrals, onlys as the best way to get beautiful greys.
therefore i am feeling a lot sheepish after so many great responses have been explained and in quite some detail.
Adventureartist. I am feeling more foolish as the thread goes on I have the
book yellow and blue don't make green and the water colorist bible and a great many more books on color mixing. And somehow I did not associate this as neutral I always thought of black or white as being neutral both lacking all signs of color. The actual frustration for me comes not from the making of the colors but more the ability to identify the particular bias of a greyed color pastel or as I now know a neutral color.
Thanks to all of you that have taken your valueable time to help on this subject and I apologize for the mis understanding on my behalf.

DAK723
06-22-2012, 12:40 AM
David, no need to apologize! I'm sure many newcomers to pastel and art in general peruse these threads and learn things they did not know. You can be sure there is always someone out there with the same question you are asking!

Plus, every time I answer a question (and this may be true of others, too) it helps clarify things in my own mind - plus I get input from all the other answers and may pick up on some angle or thought that I did not think of before. We all learn and we all benefit!

Don

adventureartist
06-22-2012, 03:07 AM
Hmmm, interesting, pastels have some advantages over the liquid mediums, but the liquid ones show us the color bias of the greys or neutrals simply by understanding the warm and cool mixtures of the particular neutral. For instance if you take a cool red and a cool green and mix them the bias will be therefore cool, or a warm red 75% added to a cool green 25% would bias it to warm. In pastels it is your eye that must make the judgement as to the bias, and you can do that by comparison to other colors, but this takes experience and a practiced eye.
For myself, I ask how a red grey, or neutralized red will enhance my greens, say in a foliage painting, or if that particular green I am using is warm(ish) on the spectrum and will a cool red vs a warm one be a better choice? Since a lot of pastel use is based on how one color plays or vibrates next to another these are in my opinion valid and important questions leading to the success or failure of the message I want the viewer to get.

Davkin
06-22-2012, 10:18 AM
If you have no experience with liquid mediums I'd say it would be worth the investment to invest in a few tubes and learn to mix colors, those exercises will do wonders to expand your knowledge of how colors work.

David

barriespapa
06-22-2012, 11:08 AM
Don thanks you made me feel much better. I do understand where your are coming from I find that I get just as much new information from other artists threads as i do my own. thanks again for taking your time to respond.
Drusilla I think for me you may have opened a can of worms because If you were to hold up the pastels in your travel box one by one and ask me to tell you if they were cool or warm I would be very surprised if I got 75% right. I must say that I have improved over the last 5 years back then i didn't know which colors where warm and which where cool. Let alone pick out a cool red I thought they were all warm. Another example is ultramarine blue is warmer than phalo blue but I don't see why, I would have said the opposite. here again we have the case of I know but I don't get it visually.
Make any sense to You.
David yes I started to paint 7 years ago roughly and I started in watercolors and then tried acrylics and now I am pastels and before pastels I never really had the passion that I now have for painting.
David

Davkin
06-22-2012, 11:10 AM
Just remember David.....it's all relative. :D

chuas2
06-22-2012, 11:19 AM
Hi all,
In his video "solutions"Richard stresses the use of neutrals. Are neutrals greys that lean to either of the primary colors?
Since I have totally failed in the color test that was on a thread here a couple of weeks ago.( 109) score I seem to be totally lost when it comes to picking out neutrals.
David

Hi David,
I "failed" the color test too, but I'm blaming my monitor.
You've gotten a lot of good answers here. I think of neutrals as "bridge" colors. If I want a true "neutral" I go to my Terry Ludwigs (I don't have any GAs, so not sure if they have any designated neutrals); the line has a group of colors designated N(eutral). I also depend on my set of Girault "greys" for use as bridge or neutral colors.
Kris

jackiesimmonds
06-22-2012, 01:46 PM
David, line up all your greys. Then, split them into two rows. If you feel it helps, make a mark with the pastel, alongside the stick. Create one "warm" row and one "cool" row.

The warm ones will lean towards the warm colours on the colour wheel; the cooler ones will lean towards the cooler colours on the colour wheel. So a pinkish grey will be warmER than a blue-ish grey.

The differences in some cases might be subtle. Making marks with purple-greys will help, you will begin to see which ones are blue-purple and which ones are pink-purple.

Only when you separate these greys (neutrals) from your richer, more saturated colours, will you be able to "see " them in terms of warms and cools, because a cool grey and a warm grey will both look cooler than a rich red, for instance.

Separate them out, and study them. It is rather fun to do.

sketchZ1ol
06-22-2012, 03:50 PM
hello
to my mind , this question does not have an easy solution as to pastel ;
- brilliance of the crystals is a unique character .
- strong value contrasts are not part of every situation .
- intensity/saturation is different from wet media .
- clear glazing is not an option as a topcoat and a ' push ' .

a partial answer by reduction , perhaps ...

much to explore .

Ed :}

Colorix
06-22-2012, 08:10 PM
Agree with Dru, the book Blue and Yellow don't Make Green (or similar title) by Wilcox is good, but one has to use one's "headology" quite intensely.

if you pick out all your "greys", and isolate them from the prismatic rainbow colours, it is way easier to see if they are blue-er or green-er, or whatever-er than another.

Colour *is* difficult, and it takes a lot of study and learning, trial and error, happy and less happy accidents, to begin to understand it. A good help is a book that takes the mystery out of it. Wilcox's is good. For example, he talks about "how to take the redness out of red". Makes sense.

Instead of buying tubes of liquid colour, you can use our nice pastels on a paper that is friendly to blending, like for example Canson MT. Works as well, just blend the patches well, and the mixes equal liquid media. (Might add water, if you want. Our pigments are, after all, exactly the same as in oils/acrylics.)

barriespapa
06-22-2012, 09:16 PM
David I will do.
Kris thanks for looking in I don't have any ludwigs excepts for a mystery box.but my g.a.'s have Quite a few thanks to Kris i now know which ones they are.
Jackie thanks for your input I like your suggestion and I will try that this week-end.
Ed thanks for your input buddy always appreciated.
Charlie I believe you and Jackie must have cross posted because she has given me the exact same advice about seperating my greys from my saturated colors and divide them in to cools and warms. However thank you very much for your input on this problem of mine I am pretty sure it is just experience that I am lacking as i do find myself improving as time goes by I like your Idea of blending on swatches These are the sort of things that I am remiss in trying just want to paint my masterpiece lol.
David

Lynndidj
06-24-2012, 01:03 AM
I agree with others that learning to mix color from a tube and understanding color theory will help you immensely in understanding what you are looking at/for in your pastel tray. Grumbacher Academy watercolors are very inexpensive and would help you to learn what actually goes into the pastels you are picking up. Understanding all of the rest of color theory is also so important to learning how to layer your pastels. That being said, sometimes a pastel could go either way - as a gray or a regular pastel. I have my pastels separated the way that Richard McKinley does - with the "neutrals/grays" on the right and the more pure saturated colors on the left, all by value with the lightest at the top of my box and the darkest at the bottom of my box. That exercise alone, when done with a value scale and a piece of red film will help you to determine the value of a pastel, and when you are trying to determine whether you have a gray tone or not, it will become apparent when you try and place it with your saturated colors and it looks gray, but when you place it with your grays it looks beautiful or vice versa!! The theory behind this separation is that you will use tend to use the grays more readily if they are grouped together and looking beautiful next to each other, and then come in for the later stages of your painting with more saturated colors in moderation. I agree that the Girault grays are wonderful, and the Mount Vision grays are something I can't seem to do without on almost every landscape I do. I have full sets of both, and love them. I personally do not care for the texture of the Great Americans - I don't like the way they play with my other pastels. But if you have the Full Monty, you have all the colors you could possibly need to play with, and you do have a full complement of gray tones. I would definitely do the exercise of sorting your pastels the McKinley way, even if you end up not liking them that way or keeping them that way. It is such a great way to learn about YOUR pastels - what colors you have and where they are on the value scale, which ones are more gray and which ones are more saturated. It truly will help you!!

Lynn

barriespapa
06-24-2012, 10:38 AM
Lynn thank you for taking your time to go into such detail on this issue. when I first started using pastels I tried to do what you are suggesting and I had lots of help from folks like your self and I am afraid I failed miserably.
However a year later and I am much wiser haha. I have taken the advice of others and seperated my greys /neutrals from the boxes and put them together in a separate box and I am now beging to see the difference in there bias green, blue. red etc. So I will try once again to sort my pastels by color, value ,etc. I will also revisit the threads from my previos attempts to do so I believe there was some dicussion as to whether to arrange by warm and cool colours and I don't remember how that ended up
thanks again for all your help.
David

DAK723
06-24-2012, 04:40 PM
Instead of buying tubes of liquid colour, you can use our nice pastels on a paper that is friendly to blending, like for example Canson MT. Works as well, just blend the patches well, and the mixes equal liquid media.
Just so happens that next month's Spotlight is on using a limited palette. So, mixing pastels is part of that equation. It can definitely be fun to do - just to experiment with color mixing. If you are like me, and learned pastel using a small set of pastels (such as 24 Rembrandts), then you might feel more comfortable mixing. Personally, I can never find the color I want from my 250 or so pastels and end up using only a dozen or so in each painting and mix quite a bit.

I didn't do these with the topic of neutrals in mind - although you can see that mixing colors does neutralize them - but I thought it might be of interest to share them as we are discussing mixing colors.


It can be fun to try and mix a full spectrum of color from yellow, red and blue. Note that the more intense the colors that you start with the more colorful the mixes - usually.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jun-2012/82335-lim04.jpg

Or see what happens when you scumble over your basic intense colors with a lighter, duller color:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jun-2012/82335-lim05.jpg

These could be considered light grays. (Note that I did use a green pastel, but forgot to include it in the pastel line-up.)

Here are intense warm colors with a dark blue added to neutralize:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jun-2012/82335-lim02.jpg

Another yellow, red and blue - only this time starting with a duller version of each. I couldn't mix a nice green with the yellow and dark blue chosen, but got a nice colorful neutral!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Jun-2012/82335-lim01.jpg

A variety of pastels - mostly Giraults, some Mt. Visions and one Conte pastel. On Uart paper.

Don

Lynndidj
06-25-2012, 02:13 AM
David, I printed out a picture of Richard's box (which I had seen first hand at a workshop) and tried to imitate his box. Of course, his is perfection, mine is less so, but I find it so easy to look for the pastel that I need or want now that I have my boxes so much better organized.

Lynn

jackiesimmonds
06-25-2012, 05:04 AM
I understand your visual confusion about Ultramarine blue being a "warm" blue. It is VERY confusing. You just have to accept it...Ultra does lean towards the purple and reds on the colour wheel, which means it is warmER than a blue which leans towards the greens.

HOWEVER just knowing this does not always help much in practice, because a colour's temperature can be altered drastically by what is beside, or around it. A so-called "cool red" - one with blue in it rather than yellow - can be made to look positively warm if surrounded by a blue. And a "warm" red can look cool by comparison with a very much warmer, more orangey red all around it.

So - David - while it is good to increase one's knowledge base, just remember that nothing is black and white. If you see what I mean................................

Colorix
06-25-2012, 08:32 AM
.... I like your Idea of blending on swatches These are the sort of things that I am remiss in trying just want to paint my masterpiece lol.
David

I know, it is like practicing scales on an instrument... But, if the famous concert pianist with 40 years experience actually does practice scales -- well, then it seems like the smart thing to do. Taking the time to do swatches will definitely save you time when you paint, that's a promise!

Don, great examples. The last sample also doesn't give any good oranges.

Warm/Cool: I was also confused by the blues, but then again, Wilcox's book sorted that out. It is more a question of "is it greener or more violet (red), or doesn't it lean in any direction but is simply blue?"

One can simply decide which is what. I've decided that orange is warmest, and pure blue is coolest (but I still perceive ultramarine as cooler), while I also work with a parallel system which says yellow is warmest and violet is coolest (which I suspect really means most luminous/least luminous). I discovered that it didn't really matter. Say I'm painting a sky. I notice I need a bit more greenish blue at the lower part, and a bit more violet blue at the top. Warm and cool really doesn't come into it, but the colours do.

DAK723
06-25-2012, 09:34 AM
One can simply decide which is what. I've decided that orange is warmest, and pure blue is coolest (but I still perceive ultramarine as cooler), while I also work with a parallel system which says yellow is warmest and violet is coolest (which I suspect really means most luminous/least luminous). I discovered that it didn't really matter. Say I'm painting a sky. I notice I need a bit more greenish blue at the lower part, and a bit more violet blue at the top. Warm and cool really doesn't come into it, but the colours do.
One reason that warm and cool can be confusing is that there is no definitive answer - each person has their own perceptions. As Charlie mentions, to accurately mix or choose a color it is best to determine which way it leans on the color wheel. Is it a reddish blue or a greenish blue, or a yellow-green or a blue-green.

I say each person has their own perceptions because having read dozens of books, you will get no definitive answers. Some say yellow is the warmest and violet the coolest. Some say orange and blue are warmest/coolest. I have heard some artists say red is the warmest. Emile Gruppe in his excellent book on color, considers red and green to be temperature neutral - neither warm or cool. It seems to be about a 50/50 split on whether a blue-green is warmer than blue-purple, based on all the books I've read. (Personally, I would choose blue-purple to be cooler since I would say purple is cooler than green, but that's purely my perception).

So, if you perceive a pure blue to be the coolest color - then any blue leaning either toward red or green is warmer! But compared to any other color but pure blue, all the other "blues" are still cooler than any other color. In other words, there is basically no practical application where you will use any blue to be "warm" or "warmer", in my opinion.

Personally, my experience with using color temperature is quite limited, as I used to believe in that old saying "As long as the value is correct, you can use any color." But thanks to people like Charlie and other here on WC I have begun to learn how wrong that saying is if you are trying for realistic color. I find that I need to decide warm vs. cool most often as we move away from orange and blue on the color wheel. Choosing warmer yellow-greens rather than cooler blue greens are important when doing any landscape. If I'm painting a red object in the sun, I know it must be more yellow -leaning towards orange due to the effect of the yellow sunlight, and probably cooler (leaning towards violet) for red in the shade. But rather than just trying to decide warm or cool, I find it easier to think in terms of "what color is the light." If an object is being lit by yellow sunlight - then it leans more towards yellow on the color wheel. If it is being affected by blue sky light in the shadows, then the shadow color moves more towards blue on the color wheel.

Hope this helps!

Don

Davkin
06-25-2012, 10:26 AM
I choose to focus more on comparisons rather than absolutes when it comes to the warm/cool color issue. When choosing a color I ask myself, "Is it cooler or warmer than the color next to it and by how much?". But even then I find the concept of warm vs cool a bit flawed for the reasons stated by others, there is no consensus on which is the warmest and which is the coolest. So when I find the warmer or cooler question to not be clear enough I ask myself "Which direction on the color wheel do I need to go?".

David

barriespapa
06-25-2012, 10:39 AM
Wow What a wealth of information It is going to take me a while to soak
all this in.
Don thanks so much for the swatches of colour exercises. I will give them a try any attempts that I have made while painting just seem to leave the top colour more prevalent unless it is blended with a finger then it appears dull and in order to brighten up one has to go over it with one color or the other and then I am back at square one. I will certainly have to try the spotlight next month certainly need the practice in this area.
Lynn I guess this is something I am going to have to get done if I want to make colour selection easier. Thanks for your input.
Jackie Thanks for your comments on the ulramarine blue thing they certainly can be confusing, Your earlier suggestion of seperating my neutrals has help tremendously now I can sort my pastels a little easier into there values. Thanks to everyone my conception of warm and cool is improving and it is good to know that there are differing opions in this area as well as differing situations which can change the temperature somewhat.
Charlie thanks for your input I am going to do some swatches. I appreciate your explaination of warms and cools it helps me considerably.your sky painting theory was also very valueable.

Don I really liked your concept of painting in tune with the color of the light I will keep that in mind for future works.
David

westcoast_Mike
06-25-2012, 11:54 AM
You are correct David. It all goes back to simultaneous contrast. No color is warm or cool by itself. Only when taken in context of what it is compared to does this exist.

DAK723
06-25-2012, 12:08 PM
Don thanks so much for the swatches of colour exercises. I will give them a try any attempts that I have made while painting just seem to leave the top colour more prevalent unless it is blended with a finger then it appears dull and in order to brighten up one has to go over it with one color or the other and then I am back at square one.

Yes, that is sort of the way it is. While my blending exercises may look like I just took one color and then blended in the next, that is not how it works! Pastel are very opaque, so - as you mention - the "top" color becomes more prevalent. It took a number of sequences of usng one color then the other - feathering very lightly - and, yes, finger blending in the early stage - to mix the colors. i should have mentioned that it is not as easy as it looks in the swatches!

Don

barriespapa
06-25-2012, 07:59 PM
David we must have cross posted I missed your coments so thanks for your input. Mike thanks for looking in nice to see I am getting it right finally.
Yes don you are so right it is not easy at all iI guess I am very lucky to have about 700 colours and I still find there is a special something I don't have and on the other side of the coin there are pastels in the box that may never see the light of sanded paper.lol

JPQ
07-12-2012, 03:36 PM
If you have no experience with liquid mediums I'd say it would be worth the investment to invest in a few tubes and learn to mix colors, those exercises will do wonders to expand your knowledge of how colors work.

David

or pans if you use aquarelle what i recommend becouse you can then paint backgrounds.:)

barriespapa
07-14-2012, 04:36 PM
Thanks for looking in J.P.
David

japonaise
07-14-2012, 11:15 PM
David: Do you find your neutral sticks to be a distraction? I have a very tough time working with my neutrals intermixed with the rest of my sticks. It makes my palette seem "clouded." Every once in a while, I go through the process of cleaning up my boxes and integrating the neutrals with the tint, pure, vibrant and shade colors, only to redo the exercise by moving the neutrals back into their own rows. And, I have my blacks, whites, warm and cool grays in their own rows, too. If only one thing was the magic bullet. J

LucyJane
07-16-2012, 02:29 PM
This thread has kind of steered me off into watercolors, where I'm getting a better handle on the whole color gradation and neutrals and temperature thing.
The truth is I jumped headlong into Pastels, but I discover I need to develop some color diplomacy and the array of colors I have in pastels makes that difficult. I've found I do what Japonaise, above, mentions. I've separated my neutrals which allows me to see them better.

nvcricket
07-17-2012, 04:05 AM
This has turned into a super tread....I've rated it!

No one has mentioned the Terry Ludwig set called 30 essential grays-Maggie Price.

http://www.terryludwig.com/30-pc.-sets/30-essential-grays-maggie-price/

You can use this to compare with the colors you have in your GA set.

Carol

barriespapa
07-17-2012, 10:46 AM
David: Do you find your neutral sticks to be a distraction? I have a very tough time working with my neutrals intermixed with the rest of my sticks. It makes my palette seem "clouded." Every once in a while, I go through the process of cleaning up my boxes and integrating the neutrals with the tint, pure, vibrant and shade colors, only to redo the exercise by moving the neutrals back into their own rows. And, I have my blacks, whites, warm and cool grays in their own rows, too. If only one thing was the magic bullet. J
Yes I most certainly do I took the advice of Jackie and seperated them all and chris even gave me a list of the greys in my set, in case i missed any.
It has made a big difference for me.makes it so much easier to distiquish the values of the different hues.
David

barriespapa
07-17-2012, 10:53 AM
Lucy thanks for looking. I started my journey in watercolour first and then acrylics. one certainly learns more about mixology ,however I never had a pallette that exceeded 20 colours in either medium. moving to pastels and a pallette of 600 or more colors was a bit mind boggling, and intimidating.
David

barriespapa
07-17-2012, 11:04 AM
This has turned into a super tread....I've rated it!

No one has mentioned the Terry Ludwig set called 30 essential grays-Maggie Price.

http://www.terryludwig.com/30-pc.-sets/30-essential-grays-maggie-price/

You can use this to compare with the colors you have in your GA set.

Carol
Hi Carol thanks for this link I popped in and had a look the greys are very similiar to what is in my 32 greys with the exception of the grey yellow as far as I can see. I am happy that you enjoyed the thread I have never had a thread rated before at least not that i know of.
David

LucyJane
07-17-2012, 04:19 PM
Lucy thanks for looking. I started my journey in watercolour first and then acrylics. one certainly learns more about mixology ,however I never had a pallette that exceeded 20 colours in either medium. moving to pastels and a pallette of 600 or more colors was a bit mind boggling, and intimidating.
David

I found myself staggered by the number of pastels too! I painted in oils a million years ago and got all I needed from not many colors. The watercolors are acting like a color refresher course and helping me remember how to draw.