Water mixables

[BillieD]

I'm a newby, too, so I don't know how the Magic White worked. I use the Artisan. My instructor told me to brush a very thin glaze of the Water Mixable Oil Medium on my canvas, then dip my brush in the medium, and but a very thin glaze of the white,(Titanium) I planned to use in the painting.

The Water Mixables work best, if you avoid using water to thin them, use your mediums as much as possible, this is more luminous. If you use more than about 5 or 10% water, it loses its integrity.

Billie Dawn

[Sandi]

I love the H20 ois for allowing me to still dabble with oils too. Although I am still a newbie with them too, I've gathered a few tidbits that might be of help from mentors, Titanium here at WC, experimenting and PBS shows like Jerry Yarnell's. http://www.yarnellart.com/

I've used their white as a wet background for my palette knive technique just fine, but I find I have to mist lightly on hot dry days. Other days I didn't need to do anything but bounce my knife around.

I use Max brand too, but would love to try the others. I understand that the best quality is the Holbein, followed by the W&N.
But as you know, the companies are constantly updating in competition, which means a constant ear out for change.

I hope Titanium puts up a tutorial for us. Or maybe we can talk Dik F. Liu into a tutorial ... wish wish *sigh*

[idahogirl]

Hi Pat,

I used mostly Artisan and mix Grumbacher and have not had any problems. Also, I do not use water to thin. From time to time, I like to do the Alexander, Bob Ross type paintings (they are sooooooo much fun). I also use a thin coat of water micsible linseed oil and then a very thin coat of white. Haven't noticed any chalkiness though. Drop by my website (just double click on the "www" icon below) All my oils are with water miscible oils.

Happy painting,

Dee

[Pray]

I'm trying water mixable oils. So far I'm finding Artisan stiff and Max more buttery. Using each in the same painting. I'm also using Artisan mediums (mostly linseed) with Max paint. Will any problems develop from mixing them? Grumbacher says don't do it but doesn't state the reasons. Is this just a "buy ours" thing? Will any problems show up over time? Also, I used to use Alexander's Magic White years ago before I had to quit using oils. I miss my old technique and the water mixables are looking a little "chalky". Does anyone know what to do with water mixables to get the Magic White effect. I used a thin coat on the canvas and worked "wet on wet". Thanx for any help you can lend.

Pat

[Titanium]

Sandi -

working on it , have not forgotten you . I don't have any scanning equipment , and don't paint small pictures , usually 30 x 40 inches.
It will be realistic [ think Titian or so ].
I hope that does not throw you .

General Comment -

Try not to use medium in your lower coats if you are a layer painter. These commercial paints are already insufficient in pigment.

Try to use brush pressure to keep you paints thin or just a very little water soluble linseed oil .
This may actually help as some of the water soluble paints may be a little underbound [ not have enough linseed or safflower to bind the pigment properly ].

For the Bob Ross effect , the Grumbacher help line suggested coating the canvas with a thin coat of their white from the tube.Use a palette knife for speed . Only a very thin coat .

See you folks a little later .

I read here often so you can ask questions if you like - hope I can answer .
Titanium

[cagathoc]

I have tried both MAX and Holbein Aqua. The Holbein has amazing colors available & is softer than Max but I find both too STICKY. I really had to fight with those suckers to move the paint around.

I heard that Van Gogh makes the most buttery h20 oils and I have ordered some - I'll let you know how it goes.

I'm switching over from my gouache...

Any other brands around? What types of brushes work best - bristle or synthetic?

Thanks!!!




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Cindy~

[Pray]

Thanks everyone. Very helpful. I use both types of brushes depending on what I'm after. The main difference I've noticed is that I have to use a MUCH lighter touch using bristles than I did with regular oils. Too heavy a touch exposes canvas fast so I tend to use softer brushes more often.

Pat

[Pray]

Forgot to add this tip. When I'm not happy with the pigment strength I add water color pigment to bump it up. So far I'm not happy with any Cerulean or Cerulean Hue in either brand (sticky, gummy, clumpy) so I us water color Cerulean exclusively with mixable oil white.

Pat

[paintfool]

I don't use H2O oils so i can't really offer anything here, but, Titanium, i just wanted to let you know that you can have your photos put on a cd at the time of development. Just check the little box. This eliminates the need for the scanner.
Cheryl

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paintfool

[LDianeJohnson]

Hi Pat,

Yes, some of the H20 oils are sticky, some thick, some thin, some this and that. Time will tell if mixing is an issue. I have used them since they came out with no discernable problems, even mixing the different brands.

Aside from the differences in "feel" and substance, every brand has a different color range and differing amounts of pigment. I try to stick with one brand, then add-in colors that are lacking (that I cannot achieve via mixing.)

One of the benefits of using the water soluable oils is the "tack" time...the amount of time to set-up so you can paint over them. You can usually paint over them easily in a day or two. And do maintain the principle of painting "fat over lean" as with regular oils.

Still wait 6 mo - 1 yr for full curing before varnishing. And as was said above, don't "break" them too much with water or they will not adhere properly and loose their integrity.

Have fun!

Diane

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L. Diane Johnson (http://www.LDianeJohnson.com/) NAPA, PSA
Plein Air Workshops (http://www.LDianeJohnson.com/workshops/)

[Pray]

Well, another w/m oil question. Now I'm trying to solve sticky, gummy Alizarian problem. Water breaks it down and linseed oil just suspends particles. Seems worse than Cerulean problem. Holbein's page says their w/m oils are mixable with acrylic. Does anyone know about this? Also, if they are, at what point in the mix will I have to leave my brush sitting in water and what is the dry time if mixed. I work wet into wet and need to do a rather large area.

Thanx for any help you can give here.

Pat

[Michael Zoller]

I use the watter mixables as much as posible, I use them with regular oils and acrylics.
I seem to like the vangogh alot
but I use them all. The deal is when using oil and acylic at the same time is dont let the oils dry conpleatly so the acrylic will bind with it, or mix the two. Seal the painting with a good layer of polymer afterwords, this will make shure it withstands the course of time without flaking, cracking etc. oil and acrylic DO mix if you do it right........but not recamended for novus. study alittle alcomy its a good thing...


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ZOLLER

[Michael2]

To answer the original poster, Grumbacher says that if you mix their Max stuff with another companies water miscible stuff, the resulting concoction won't be water miscible.

You have to believe them because they may be right. Only their chemists know.

It seems to me that, unlike with regular oils where you can freely mix brands, with the water miscibles you have to choose one brand to use exclusively.

I was thinking of trying Grumbacher's myself.

[Michael2]

Pray,

Which brand did you say is sticky and gummy? I want to avoid that brand.

Galkyd is sticky and gummy; feels like painting with Elmer's glue. Don't like that at all. Liquin is much better. Not that this anything to do with water miscibles.

I stopped using Alizarin Crimson. I use Grumbacher Thio Violet. If you mix some green into it then it takes on the Alizarin color. Alizarin isn't colorfast.

[Degas5]

Michael, Thio Violet and some kind of green gives you some sort of Alizarin Crimson? I can't see that. Are you sure you have that right? Any red that there might be in Thio Violet would be negated by any kind of green and would leave you with a low chroma color, the way I see it, and Alizarin Crimson is a high chroma red.

[Michael2]

Originally posted by Degas5:
Michael, Thio Violet and some kind of green gives you some sort of Alizarin Crimson? I can't see that. Are you sure you have that right? Any red that there might be in Thio Violet would be negated by any kind of green and would leave you with a low chroma color, the way I see it, and Alizarin Crimson is a high chroma red.

OK, I tried this out. I used Winsor & Newton Alizarin Crimson as the comparison.

Mixing Thio Violet and Grumacher Viridian made a purplish color. Didn't look like Alizarin.

Mixing Thio Violet with Grumbacher Sap Green (a mixture of organic colors which I don't find very useful for anything) made a brownish red color. Didn't look like Alizarin.

Mixing Thio Violet with Grumbacher Yellow Ochre. Ah ha!!! Very close to Alizarin, but just a little bit too yellow. Add a slight bit if Viridian to it. Bingo!!! Looks just like Alizarin. Can't tell the difference.

[Pray]

Hi Michael - I went ahead and mixed Artisan and Max paints and mediums in various combos. They stayed water mis or mix able and water cleanable. I think it was just a "buy ours" thing because I have 7 paintings in various stages of drying and all are doing fine so far.

I do have workability prefences. I much prefer Max's linseed and use it with Artisan paint. The paint pigment strengths are comparable in both brands but where one particular pigment is sticky in one it may not be in the other. I wish there was a separate area at Wet Canvas for discussing only these paints because it can get pretty pricey "trying" them. My last post is asking for help with Alizarian problems I'm having in both brands. I wish they sold little bitty tubes to try. I'm going to try a tube or two of Holbein in colors only they have thanks to responses to my post. Max has a bigger selection of colors than Artisan but Holbein's is biggest. A little pricey but real cool colors. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Pray (edited March 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Pray (edited March 05, 2001).]

[Degas5]

Cool Michael, I have to try that one. Thanks for whipping up that mixture. Not having a tube of alizarin around can really be a bummer. It's nice to have a substitute.
Alva, I use the word chroma interchangably with color and intensity. It's just the way that I refer to color. Color and color mixing really intrigues me, as I'm sure it does you, and have many books discussing color and theory and the word Chroma is used alot when discussing color. I think it's a common enough word.

[Michael Zoller]

Words Wrords words. I enjoy studing the chemisry of pigment etc. Its good to know what pigments ar gonna last.
The eye is what I use for mixing colors i want. Sometimes the colors I use in a painting is not so much a ceative Idea but working from a limited pallet. I get confused about names of pigments sometimes, I forget stuff like that sometimes BUT my eyes
are still good......

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ZOLLER

[colinbarclay]

Originally posted by Michael:
To answer the original poster, Grumbacher says that if you mix their Max stuff with another companies water miscible stuff, the resulting concoction won't be water miscible.

You have to believe them because they may be right. Only their chemists know.

It seems to me that, unlike with regular oils where you can freely mix brands, with the water miscibles you have to choose one brand to use exclusively.

I was thinking of trying Grumbacher's myself.


You kill me , Micheal/Alva ! Since when have you put any credence to what a chemist had to say ?

Colin

[Pray]

Thanks for the violet, yellow, green tip and the w/s oil and acrylic info. Might help with my alizarian problem.

I wish I could be more specific on the gummy, sticky thing. I know how nebulous this sounds but there a sticky, gummies in both brands. The absolute worst I've found is WN Artisan cerulean. I use Artisan titanium plus tube water color cerulean (usually Grumbacher) since I seldom use just straight cerulean. In fact, I mix tube water color into the w/s oil of the same pigment alot. Its more expensive but it makes them more buttery and I avoid water breakdown. I don't think its more expensive than using the amount of medium one would need to use and it avoids the "too much" medium problem.

So far I've found alot of disagreement on the s/g problems. I'm beginning to think that unless referring to the exact same pigments, it really can't be determined which brand is better or worse. For instance, some of the Maxs are really nice and buttery just like the DaVincis I used to use but others are just horrible just like Aritisan cerulean.

Well, I hope all this is a little clearer than mud and that it helps.

Good luck and thanx. Can anyone comment on Holbein and sticky, gummy by pigment, i.e. cerulean?
Pat

[Michael2]

Is it a real Cerulean and not a "hue" containing pthalo blue and titanium white?

Real Cerulean is a color I don't see myself using much, given how expensive it is.

The water solubles paints are just pigment mixed with water soluble linseed oil. Is the water soluble lineseed oil stickier and gummier than regular linseed oil?

One of the things about oil painting I like is how smoothly the paint smears across the canvas. Which makes sense, because oil is a slippery greasy substance. If you paint with straight alkyd paints you immediately notice the difference. I tried to paint with the alkyd paing mixed with Galkyd and it was like painting with glue. Very unpleasant. (But mixing some alkyd Liquin with oil doesn't change the oil too much... still nice and greasy)

[Sandi]

huh?! Acrylics mixed with h20 oils??? I've neva hoid that one before. I've alway's heard the opposite, in fact. Where exactly is that info that says it's okay? I want to read it with my own eyes.

[Degas5]

Sandi,
I know it sounds unbelievable, but H20 and Holbein Duo are said to be intermixable with acrylics and other paints that thin with water, but I wouldn't try it. If you pick up an issue of American Artist Duo often advertises Duo and lists its properties. They'll tell you in their literature at a Holbein dealer.

[Sandi]

Well I'll be darned. :::still shaking head in disbelief::: Whodathunkit.
Degas, I'm with you.. I don't think I'll try it. Maybe it's a misprint! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Thanks for the info!

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SKirk, visual artist (http://skirkart.artistnation.com/)
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Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly.
- Robert F. Kennedy

[Degas5]

I wish it were a misprint Sandi. It says it right on the display rack. Makes me laugh just thinking about it. Wish the Holbein chemists would work on improving an already nice paint, rather than creating still another painting medium.

[Pray]

Michael: Yes it is. Al Artisan mediums a thick and sticky. Max linsee is less so but still way thicker than I like because I used it for the same reasons you did. I've tried both regular and hue paints. Neither are acceptable to me but the problem was greater with one than the other - sorry can't remember which right off the top. This is only my personal opinion. If I didn't have a problem (my own pysical ones as well as others in the house) I would never opt for w/s oils just for ease of clean up. For me its them or no oils at all. I love oils for the same reasons you do and have not experienced w/s as even coming close as far as the "experience" goes although they do in appearance. But, as you can see, it takes alot more work for me to get the same effects.

Sandi - That would be www.holbeinhk.com/duooil.html (http://www.holbeinhk.com/duooil.html) or www.holbeinhk.com (http://www.holbeinhk.com) hit "What's New" hit DUO Aqua Oil

[This message has been edited by Pray (edited March 06, 2001).]

Sandi - In my further quest for info I started looking into Van Godh and found a much deeper amount of info on your concern. You can find it at www.talens.com (http://www.talens.com) - Van Gogh H20 Tips on Usage. Hope this edit helps. Good Luck.

[This message has been edited by Pray (edited March 06, 2001).]

[Pray]

Michael:

I delved into the chemistry which it seems most posters are bored by. In brief there is no chemical incompatibility - I'm with you. Not clear on whether you're referring to traditional or w/s oils. W/S oils have been around probably longer than most on the board have been alive and only recently are experiencing a resurgence. They've been being mixed with all water mediums since they've been around. Happy painting.

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Pat
The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply. Kahlil Gibran

[Michael2]

Pray,

I finally decided to break down and give the water miscibles a try. After all, not having to use mineral spirits is a big plus.

I went with the Max line because I like and trust Grumbacher (even though I think I'm in the minority).

The Max mediums clearly say what's in them. Winsor & Newton's Artisan mediums are full of mystery ingrediants. Max has an alkyd gel available and I'm a big fan of using alkyds mediums with oil paints. As far as I know, none of the other brands offer a water miscible alkyd gel.

Pearl had a sale on a 6 37 ml tube set for only $20, containing cadmium yellow, cadmium red light, Thio Violet, Thalo Blue, Thalo Green, and titanium white. This was a real steal. Then I bought some Max linseed, and the Max alkyd, and tubes of yellow ochre, indian red, burnt umber, ivory black, and a big 150 ml tube titanium white becuase 37 ml just seemed like too small of a tube for white. Guess this experiment wound up costing $60, although given that some artists have spent $60 for a single tube of some expense Old Holland color, it's not too bad.

I've noticed that the Max titanium white isn't quite as heavy and think as the regular Pre-tested titanium white.

I did notice that the Max paints don't spread as well. I'll have to go back perhaps to the straight oil paints to make sure this is really the case.

Overall, I think the thicker paints and harder spreading can be dealt with, but I'll have to use them more before I can say for certain.

[Pray]

Michael:

Good buy. Happy painting. I'll be hanging around to see how it goes and any tips you have. I have no experience with alkyd and really want to know how it works. I've found mixing Artisan medium 50/50 with water and shaking til milky does better than linseed and doesn't break down the paint. I'm still experimenting and learning.

[Michael2]

Originally posted by Pray:
Michael:

Good buy. Happy painting. I'll be hanging around to see how it goes and any tips you have. I have no experience with alkyd and really want to know how it works. I've found mixing Artisan medium 50/50 with water and shaking til milky does better than linseed and doesn't break down the paint. I'm still experimenting and learning.

Pray,

Thanks for the support. Maybe I'll try mixing some Max alkyd, Max linseed oil and water together and see if that makes a better medium. Or maybe just Max alkyd and water. Too bad I didn't pick up some little glass jars while I was in the art supply store.

I wouldn't use the Max alkyd with the Artisan paints. They are different brands. I'm sure that the official Grumbacher line would be that mixing the two might produce undesirable results.

[tammy]

I love w/s Oils, been using them for quite awhile now. I don't find them to be sticky and I mix Max and Artisan with no problems at all and I don't use water except for cleanup.

A little annoying is that one of the yellows I think its the Naples is runny, just got to mix it real good before you use it.

I found that when I tried to use the white in the manner of liquid white it sure used alot of it.

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Don't worry, its gonna be all right....
Tammy's Home for Artists (http://tammy.artistnation.com)

[Michael Zoller]

Ive been working with comonations of oils and acrylic ever sence artist acrylics have been around. Tested the combos under prety intence labratory conditions, and again 30 years latter just to see how it held.
OK mabee 200 years from now
it might flake apart science has been wrong before... the paintings I did in the late 60s are in great shape, alittle to trippy but hey retro acid flash backs must be in. paintings a traded for a lid and a bottle of ripple are reselling for real mony. I wish I could get some.
I don't realy care if you use them together or not.
JUST HAVE FUN PAINTING!! I do.....


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ZOLLER

[Michael2]

Originally posted by tammy:
I love w/s Oils ... I don't use water except for cleanup.

How come?

I tried making a thin washy mixture by mixing the paint with a good deal of water, and it seemed to work just fine! What has been your experience with doing that?

[CkA]

I recently began using the Van Gogh h2o oils. I find them more buttery and less sticky than the MAX or Holbein Duo. Nice and bright too.

[Michael2]

Originally posted by CkA:
I recently began using the Van Gogh h2o oils. I find them more buttery and less sticky than the MAX or Holbein Duo. Nice and bright too.



Maybe it's because they have more oil and less pigment. I don't know anything about Van Gogh specifically, but I have one tube of Talens Rembrandt Cadmium Red Light (which cost quite a bit of money, certainly not worth the price), and it comes out all oily. The cadmium paint from all other manufacturers I've tried comes out nice and thick.

Furthermore, Van Gogh is the name of Talens' student quality line of paints. The fact that they water miscibles fall under the student line further supports my the theory that there's less pigment and more oil.

Talens also says that the H2Oils dries faster. But they don't say WHY. This really annoys me that they don't say that. One can only guess that they contain alkyds in addition to oils in the mixtures, plus siccatives.

This post wasn't intended to "dis" Talens. The H2Oils might be really good paints. Maybe I made a bad decision buying the Max paints. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/frown.gif

[tammy]

Originally posted by Michael:
How come?

I tried making a thin washy mixture by mixing the paint with a good deal of water, and it seemed to work just fine! What has been your experience with doing that?


It's just that I use the medium that is made for the H20 oils to thin with.
As for the water, I used to use Acrylics a lot and I tryed thinning the Oil with water but found that I overdid it being too used to Acrylics. Just a personal quirk.
If thinning with water works for you I see no problem doing it. I forget what my literature says about it exactly but I don't think it encourages thinning with water because of the danger of thinning too much, but that's just what I seem to remember so don't take it as gospel truth. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif


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Don't worry, its gonna be all right....
Tammy's Home for Artists (http://tammy.artistnation.com)

[Michael2]

I want to add here that I tried out the Winsor & Newton Artisan brushes. The theory behind these brushes is that they are made of strong synthetic "hairs" that are better at moving around thick paint than the wimpier hog bristles.

The fact that W&N thinks such brushes are needed is an admission on their part that the water miscible paints are thicker.

So far I like the brushes! They are more than just a replacement for hog bristle. Although they powerfully move the paint around, they form a sharp point as only man-made fibers can do. They can replace both hog and sable and be the only brush you use.

Because the real hogs have a randomness and fuzziness to their points, they can still be usefull if you want to get that fuzzy random effect.

I'm sure that there won't be a problem mixing the Grumacher Max psints with the Winsor & Newton Artisan brushes! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif