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paintfool
06-11-2003, 07:06 PM
We are all aware of the fact the spirituality means different things to different people and to some it doesn't necessarily mean to be a participant of a structured religion, to others it does.

It's all good. :) But i feel that a sub-forum where one could go to hold discussions and share thoughts & works of a religious nature would be a great addition to this forum.
To me it would be a housekeeping measure that would make it easier for everyone to navigate the forum for their needs with ease.

I'm not able to assure you that we will even get such a sub-forum, that is not really within my power but i would very much like to know if the general population feels that we are big enough or will have enough interest in such a feature.

I'm posting a simple yes or no poll but of course your thoughts are always appreciated! :)
Thanks
Cheryl

P.S. A sub forum has it's own heading, like the Artsits Way does.

mame
06-11-2003, 07:17 PM
Paint -

Not a sub-forum but a "real" one. It can then be easily found by those looking for a particular "kind" of discussion and I bet the Discussion Board will get alot of word of mouth press about it, folks asking their friends to come where they can all be together and without fear of prosecutio I bet they'll come flocking......

Who knows, Wet Canvas might become famous as THE Christian ART Haven. What's the harm?

mpopinz
06-11-2003, 07:25 PM
I vote No!

Not all of us WetCanvas! folks are Christians and wouldn't have anything to contribute/gain from such a forum.

I don't think we need exclusion, and separatism based on religious beliefs.

I think that a Church, Temple, or other holy place, perhaps a group of friends, or another site completely, is the place for such things. Not on a website designated for "art"!

impressionist2
06-11-2003, 07:38 PM
There are many forums on wet canvas. I do not participate in several of them because some of the forums are not what I am interested in. That does not mean that I would ask the moderators, just because those forums do not interest me, that they should be done away with.

If there are 20,000 members of wet canvas, then it stands to reason, that many of that number are religious and are tuned into their religion, beliefs, when they do their painting, sculpting, etc..

We talk about art idols, music, philosophy that inspires us. Why not a place where we are able to speak about the strongest force, our faith, that influences our work.

There are "corners" on WC for all issues, tastes and styles. Why not one that many of us would like to have?

I voted "yes".

Renee

SilkAngel
06-11-2003, 08:23 PM
I agree that a forum that is open for the spiritual discussion that many long for is a good idea. I would like to see a forum that is open to discussion from everyone.

I, also, do not participate in forums that are of no interest to me. Though I may look through many of the threads, I don't respond.
There is nothing of a positive value that I can contribute.

Again, I think a Spiritual Forum would be a great addition to the Wet Canvas site.

SparrowHawk
06-11-2003, 09:40 PM
I'm still navigating all the goodies available here, but I'd be interested, assuming "religious" isn't a euphemism for Christianity or any other organized religion. (It kind of scares me that a couple of people seemed to jump to that conclusion. There are other spiritual paths being followed by folk here, aren't there?) Also assuming that people would be allowed to express their thoughts and feelings without denigrating others'. If the subject of faith or spiritual life has meaning for artists here it's going to get discussed. I think it would be beneficial to isolate it from the rest of the board so it can be sought out or ignored according to individual preference. It needn't be seen as fostering separatism any more than having separate places to geek about different media.

Rose Queen
06-11-2003, 09:48 PM
If such a sub-forum is established, I would suggest that it go in the Town Center, rather than in the Creativity Corner.



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Keith Russell
06-11-2003, 09:55 PM
Good evening.

We've had religious discussions here at Wet Canvas before, usually (as far as I know) in the 'Debate' forum.

What I personally would not like to see happen, is a forum or sub-forum that is designed to exclude anyone, especially if it designed to exclude non-Christians--or exclude Christians.

I have some very specific religious views, and would be happy to participate in a discussion of religion, religious views, philosophy, existence, etc.

But I think a forum only for those who wish to 'preach to the choir', would be counter-productive--if not downright dangerous.

K

SilkAngel
06-11-2003, 10:04 PM
I don't want to see any forum that excludes anyone. No matter what the subject matter may be. I would, though, like to see a place where good conversation can take place. In many of the debate threads, conversation ends and the discussion turns to attacking a person rather than the point of view.

There is another thread in this forum that is an exchange of information. The latest is about a Women's Ministries meeting and another about an artist during a worship service.

I would like to see discussion on a subject that would stick with the subject.

lori
06-11-2003, 10:12 PM
i have to say i'm against this forum too.

i absolutely agree with keith on this (a rare moment of late :D )--

but anyway, i really feel giving a forum to "religious art" is a thinly veiled attempt to hide the fact it would be a "christian" forum...let's face it, most, if not all talk in the creative corner revolves around christianity...NOT spirituality, so if a forum is now dedicated to "religious"--actually meaning religion, we know exactly what will happen...it'll be a christian forum...no doubt about it. especially since it is obvious why this forum would be forming.

and while there are many forums dedicated to materials, styles, chattering, debating, etc. forming a forum for one particular "group" is definitely heading down a dangerous path...IMHO.

SilkAngel
06-11-2003, 10:49 PM
My question on all this is why does it matter if if is a forum that discusses mainly Christianity and Christian ideals.

Lori, why do you feel that this type of forum is a 'dangerous' path? Anyone is free to join any discussion. If the topic isn't one you wish to discuss, you can chose not to participate. I don't see this as a debate forum just discussion and ideas that are Christian based.

lori
06-11-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by SilkAngel
Lori, why do you feel that this type of forum is a 'dangerous' path? Anyone is free to join any discussion. If the topic isn't one you wish to discuss, you can chose not to participate. I don't see this as a debate forum just discussion and ideas that are Christian based.

i believe that to be fair WC would then have to have a jewish based forum, a buddhist based forum, an islamic, etc...and the list goes on...you get the idea.

why should christians have a forum for their exclusivity? especially on an ART site?

i'm not debating i'm giving my opinion, just like you...mine just happens to be different.

SparrowHawk
06-11-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by SilkAngel
I don't see this as a debate forum just discussion and ideas that are Christian based. And yet you don't want to exclude anyone? What of those whose addition to a discussion of ideas "that are Christian based" does not agree with yours? You're back to debating if you expect everyone in such a forum to be on the same track. I like the idea of exchange that is not predicated on debate, but if it's going to be parochial or preachy, I'd change my vote to "no." I'm new enough here not to have any standing assumptions or impressions about the group dynamics, which may be either a help or a hindrance to my point of view in this. I think this could be really interesting but I get the definite impression such a forum would need pretty strict guidelines and vigilant and unbiased moderation. Whether it's advisable to create it or not may depend on the whether that can be done and upheld.

judithj
06-11-2003, 11:30 PM
There are forms on wet canvas that are devoted to media - water colour, oils etc.

There are forms devoted to art themes - landscapes - the figure - animals.

Seems to me that a forum devoted to spiritual art would be similar - a theme based forum.

Western art has such a rich history of spiritual art expression - the cathedrals frescos, sculpture and on and on...

Eastern art has such a rich tradition of spiritual art expression - the temples, mandalas and sculpture - and on and on...

It would be a delight to talk about the process of creating spiritual art.

I vote yes - would love to see it.

arourapope
06-11-2003, 11:36 PM
I voted yes, and yet, I'm pretty pessimistic about it. I tend to agree with SparrowHawk. It would have to adhere to pretty strict guidelines, and have unbiased moderation. I don't see a Spirituality based forum happening. Sadly, I don't think WC is tolerant enough anymore to be able to discuss spirituality without getting into a "my god is bigger than your god" dispute.
Probably the only thing that would work here is a Christian forum. And no, it's not fair. But at least maybe those who are not of that spiritual inclination will be able to participate in the other forums on this site.
And yes. It sucks.

judithj
06-11-2003, 11:37 PM
Oh yes - I forgot to mention - perhaps spirituality would be a better term than religious.

A Spiritual Art Forum

I think that it is more inclusive.

judithj
06-11-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by aurorapope
Sadly, I don't think WC is tolerant enough anymore to be able to discuss spirituality without getting into a "my god is bigger than your god" dispute.

Yes I agree aurorapope - tolerance and respect would need to be there in a big way.

-Judith

Keith Russell
06-12-2003, 12:06 AM
lori said:
let's face it, most, if not all talk in the creative corner revolves around christianity...

lori, that may be changing...

I'm here now...

K

SilkAngel
06-12-2003, 12:59 AM
No, I don't want to exclude anyone. I chose the term of spirituality rather than religious for that reason. I don't want anyone preaching to me and I certainly don't want to preach to anyone.

Perhaps because I am a Christian, I tend to think more of Christian ideas. Tolerance and respect for one another's opinions is extremely important.

Because art created with a Christian, or other spiritual theme, would tend to invoke meaning to the artist, it would be important to the artist to explain without feeling that someone may take offense to them.

I am interested in what others have to say. Listening to the opinion of others helps me to refine what I think and believe. I don't want to live in a vacuum but I don't want to feel that I must defend my point of view or my honor.

I'm tired and I seem to be rambling and going no where. Thanks for listening.

K8Black
06-12-2003, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by mame
Paint -

Who knows, Wet Canvas might become famous as THE Christian ART Haven. What's the harm?


Originally posted by lori
i believe that to be fair WC would then have to have a jewish based forum, a buddhist based forum, an islamic, etc...and the list goes on...you get the idea.

why should christians have a forum for their exclusivity? especially on an ART site?


I voted no.

Kate

SparrowHawk
06-12-2003, 03:57 AM
Silk Angel, I agree with you and others who have suggested that "spirituality" is a more inclusive term. That's why I was surprised to see you define the proposed forum as "discussion and ideas that are Christian based." It seemed to imply that only Christianity qualified as spiritual. If you were simply meaning to say that that's a subset of that particular forum that you would participate in, I have no problem with that.

(Idea for rule #n of proposed forum: If you find yourself offended by something someone has posted, ask for clarification or explanation before you get pissed off or flame. E.g.: "I understand you to be saying [whatever], which troubles me because [whyever]. Have I understood you correctly?")

I can see the value in having such a forum for saying "This is what I thought/felt/experienced/explored and this is how I chose to express it and why." I agree that people would need to feel that they could present that without feeling like someone was going to take offense because the someone is automatically offended by all [Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, Hindus, etc.). While I don't think that all reaction needs to be glowingly affirmative to avoid offense, I would like to see challenging response channelled along the lines of "This (color, composition, symbol) is working this way for me. Perhaps you could consider [x, y or z]." Dialog couched in explanation of one's symbols and choices and suggestions made with a respectful consideration of another's belief could be very fruitful. We might even find better ways of expressing what we want to say.

I notice that I am envisioning this forum as dealing with the effect and expression of spirituality on specific, concrete examples of art. While a person needs to briefly explain where they're coming from, I would not like to see long philosophical or theological treatises on a particular belief, which I would consider preaching. Could a provision for respectful acceptance of all beliefs on an equal footing be made and upheld? Perhaps that is asking too much, I don't know.

How do others who think this could be a positive addition if handled well envision it working? Do those who have proposed it have some idea of the sorts of rules and boundaries they expect to require?

paintfool
06-12-2003, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by SparrowHawk
Do those who have proposed it have some idea of the sorts of rules and boundaries they expect to require?
Well SparrowHawk, actually i am the only person who has proposed this and it's not really even that. I thought it would be a good idea to gather thoughts and ideas. There are times when i can sift through threads and posts and try to get a good grip on what's going on and what's needed to continue to provide a quality hang out for us but nothing can compete with simply asking out-right.
The replies have been very interesting and very thought provoking. Thanks all.

Johnnie
06-12-2003, 05:23 AM
Hi all.

Im not anti anything for a start.

My opinion is as follows.


This web site is for folks that are into ART.

The closest thing to religion on ART web page would be religious pics that might be used for studies ect.


The idea of having a discussion forum on an ART oriented web page to me is not the place to have it.
No more than
A Christion or Muslim or Hindu oriented site would have an ART FORUM on theirs. It would not happen. And should not here.

I vote NO to a Religious forum or discussion area on here.

Matter a fact there is a thread somewhere on here were things are already getting out of wack and signs of ill feelings produced. My self personally if I had anything to do with it would have deleted the whole thread by now.

Noone seems to be able to discuss religion without it turning into and arguement, and then bad feelings. Everyone has different opinion and an ART FORUM is not the place for discussing it.

I say keep it OUT

Thanks

JJKanuck

SanDL
06-12-2003, 09:01 AM
People with a pressing need to publicly discuss their faith should do so at religious sites.

Silk Angel said: Perhaps because I am a Christian, I tend to think more of Christian ideas. Tolerance and respect for one another's opinions is extremely important

I have yet to experience tolerance and respect from a Christian for anything other than their own beliefs.

I vote no.

Keith Russell
06-12-2003, 09:03 AM
JJ, so arguments lead to bad feelings?

Then we are in desperate need of both better arguments and better feelings!

If we cannot, or will not, discuss our ideas with others, what are we protecting? Of what are we afraid?

Do we fear that our ideas are wrong, that others might have better ideas, and we would be forced to change our views?

Is that really so bad?

Why wouldn't one wish to be right, even if that does require that one's earlier beliefs be discarded? Who would want to hang onto incorrect or outdated viewpoints, anyway?

(And, why?)

K

Keith Russell
06-12-2003, 09:05 AM
Besides,

we already have a religious discussion forum.

It's called 'Debates'.

Whenever you're ready...

K

paintergirl
06-12-2003, 09:52 AM
I vote yes ...it is as simple as not participating in this forum if people don't wish too. I don't get the impression that this is a matter of exclusion to others, especially since we are not excluded from any other forum here at WC and can come and go, comment or not, as we please.

I didn't see it mentioned that one would have to be a Christian to participate there anyhow. And I can definitely understand some people not wanting a forum of this nature to be a part of Debates either - things in Debates get very rancorous quickly. Let's face it, not all people debate politely or fairly, some come just to inflame... and in the same token, not all people want to be chewed up and spit out every time they open their mouth to express an opinion.
If this is just a group of people wanting to share their faith and art...maybe even discuss ( and/or debate) amongst themselves their theology, what on earth is the problem?

My own 2 cents: I would make it a spiritual forum vs religious. Allows people of many faiths (or no faith at all but maybe interested in theology) to feel welcome.

Let's all play nicely in the sandbox...

jimb
06-12-2003, 10:02 AM
Spirituality and faith are for some a big part of their art. I think that we desperately need a forum where people can SAFELY discuss how their faith and spirituality affects and drives their art. I disagree that the place for this is Debates where feelings that are close to a persons heart can be ridiculed and mocked.

I think that there should be a place where artists can DISCUSS and SHARE their faith and how it affects their art, and not have to argue and defend. If people are not interested they need not look, so it wouldn't hurt anyone.

This should not be exclusively Christian but based on faith and Spritiuality. Therefore I vot yes and recommend a title of:
Faith/Spirituality & Art.

paintergirl
06-12-2003, 10:02 AM
Let me add...I highly doubt this would turn into a preaching to the choir forum ... People coming to WetCanvas to begin with come because of their interest, love, occupation, pre-occupation, or hobby in the arts. If artists can dally off into other topics very non-art related in Debates, who cares if they do the same in a spiritual forum?
I don't see this as a threat to anyone, and I think gaging from many past posts I have read that were spiritual in nature, there is a number of people that would probably enjoy and utilize a forum of this nature.

Keith Russell
06-12-2003, 10:29 AM
jimb, there is a vast--and irreconcilable--difference between 'debate' and 'ridicule/mockery'.

Anyone (in 'Debates' or otherwise) who ridicules and/or mocks, isn't really debating.

Rather than abandon 'Debates' because it has become something it never should have been, I would rather work to show what 'Debates' should be--and could be.

(But that's me...)

K

jimb
06-12-2003, 10:51 AM
Keith,
I would agree with your statement about the difference betweeen debate and riducle/mockery and I appreciate your making that point. I have a lot of respect for the way you conduct yourself in the Debates Forum because I know from your posts ithat you truly love a good debate, sometimes for it's own sake. And I know that you have always been respectful of other's opinions even though you disagree. However, I no longer post on the Debates Forum because others there are not so respectful.
Faith for many is not debatable. Others just don't enjoy debates but truly just want to share ideas and be supported. Faith is something that is inherently close to the heart and is not easily spoken about. Seeing the tone of many threads in the Debates Forum, I believe that many would not speak openly and share what they feel because they don't want to expose their deepest feelings to the ridicule and mockery that I think would inevitably follow.
Regards,
Jim

RobinZ
06-12-2003, 10:51 AM
I vote yes. It would be a haven for those who wish to discuss their art-spirituality issues. There are apparently a number of folks here who are interested in that, who AREN'T interested in debating their faith. It would also clean up Creativity for those who don't see their creativity as religiously-centered.

If I wandered into oil painting and started talking about colored pencils, that would be inappropriate and not very helpful for me or them. So I think it's great that I have a place where common language, experiences, points of reference regarding my medium exist so that we can cut to the chase and not have to give "background" about it first. Or have to defend why I am choosing this medium.

I see that as the same for those who want to participate in a Christian Art forum. And if there is interest from the Hindus or Jews or Muslims here at WC to form a group to discuss their art and their religion, that's cool, too! For those who want to "talk amongst themselves", why not? I personally probably would not participate, it's not my cup of tea.

But I can't figure out how it would be "dangerous". I basically see it as housekeeping, too. Nobody who isn't interested needs to go inside.

RobinZ
06-12-2003, 10:54 AM
Jim, you were posting at the same time I was. You said it better than I did! I agree with you 100% (except I'm still a Debates junkie)...

paintergirl
06-12-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Keith Russell
Anyone (in 'Debates' or otherwise) who ridicules and/or mocks, isn't really debating.

Rather than abandon 'Debates' because it has become something it never should have been, I would rather work to show what 'Debates' should be--and could be.

(But that's me...)

K

Why should people wishing to participate in a spiritual discussion/spiritual art forum do it in Debates where the assumption by virtue of the title Debates is that everything in that forum is up for Debate. ;)

Thus, people wanting to discuss their spiritual art, matters and/or their personal related theology would rather do so in a forum that is not going to repeatedly digress to semantics and nit-picking...( hopefully....lol )

dodger
06-12-2003, 01:16 PM
Read something the other day... each individual is a complex entity of various roles... woman/man, sibling, friend, political bent, cultural background, philosophical leanings, occupations, hobbies, interests, etc....

It's when you come to the table of your peers in whatever group that is a part of you, where the differences & similarities become prominent. This is an artists site. We're all artists here, that is the side of ourselves that drew us here to begin with.

Sure, we're all complex individuals, but I find it ironic that there would be a huge wedge brought in here for the Christians & Non-Christians.

I vote no on a separate Christian forum. Religion is a philosophy. If you are indeed tolerant, then anyone who holds a differing opinion than you should be allowed to explore it. I would vote yes to a spiritual forum, although the Artists Way really is, anyway. That's what the book is about, after all.

If you want to talk ONLY about how Christianity influences your life, your art, your "worldview", then I say find a religious site.

RobinZ
06-12-2003, 02:05 PM
I haven't heard any Christians here say that people who aren't Christians shouldn't be allowed to explore their spirituality. Did I miss it?

I also guess I missed this huge wedge. I honestly don't see it. I see people who I know are Christians all over WC. They don't seem to be avoiding anyone.

To me, it's like when they made a colored pencil forum. Before that, the cp stuff was mixed in with drawing, wasn't it? There's so much I need to absorb, I don't want to sift through the graphite stuff looking for the colored pencil stuff. Although I peek into the graphite stuff from time to time!

Same here. I don't want to sift through the Christian-bonding stuff looking for the Creativity stuff. I still don't see the harm.

Does this sound snotty? I don't mean it to. I just think it makes sense and I don't see the meaness to it. I read the Artists Way and it's definitely not my cup of tea, but I don't care if others gather round to discuss it. :)

I think it could be taken as "mean" and "intolerant" when we tell them if they want to talk about their Christianity-related art without being challenged to defend their beliefs, they should go else where.

I think we're seeing way more shady ulterior motives than exist. It's just a housekeeping issue, IMO!!

SparrowHawk
06-12-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by RobinZ
I haven't heard any Christians here say that people who aren't Christians shouldn't be allowed to explore their spirituality. Did I miss it?
I don't think that's been said and I don't think the majority of Christians (speaking generally; I've not been around here long enough to tell) are so mean-spirited as to believe that. But if you have a forum labelled "Christian," and tell other faiths to make their own fora when they may not have a critical mass to do so, it becomes the de facto condition that they have no place for doing it. Also, there are some whose exploration has not landed them in some pre-labelled niche. Where are they to go? Do you make "Christian" and "Everybody Else" labels? While I appreciate the housekeeping aspect, if the forum can't be inclusive, I can't help seeing it as divisive.

LarrySeiler
06-12-2003, 02:40 PM
first of all....I anticipate that a majority will not be in favor of such and simply my faith's precepts expect such opposition.

I will say though...that I personally am not in favor of a "Christian Arts" forum...at the exclusivity of other religions. I'd rather see a "Faith, Spirituality and the Arts" forum.

It would not and could not avoid all controversy and debate, but with insistence upon decorum, cordiality and staying on topic make it possible for people to discuss that which ultimately fuels their drive to create.

Logically... let's look at other forums. We don't get mad because we are not welcome to discuss issues of painting plein air oil landscapes in the Art Business forum. We don't expect to barge our way into the portrait forum and expect empathy as we cry foul because we insist on discussing abstract sculpture or wildlife art.

If I can seek exclusivity to enjoy the privilege of discussing more seriously a genre or medium as that which expands the potential of making my art...then why so vehemently opposed ought we to be for folks to find that privilege to discuss philosophically or even theologically that which drives their art?

There is not room enough on this large community for people to meet without fear of hatred motivating others from coming in decidedly intent that no such conversation and exchange is going to happen?

What happened to my thread on Excellence is a prime example. Many did not bother to even speak as concerned the topic at hand, but rather to take issue with my right to speak to the idea of faith as motivation for my art making.

Interesting that people are interested and open to the mechanics of how I produce my art....but would object and even hold disdain to be confronted with the source and the why of my joy to make art. Yet...we talk about how we as artists pride ourselves in our liberalities, our incessant insistent rights of throwing off censorship, and so on. Yet...should people wish to discuss issues pertinent to the area of faith....then those as "thought police" would come in to stop the parade. Not interested in truth or the topic but only to repress the free exchange of ideas; ideas they disagree with or are vehmently opposed.

I have for several years dedicated myself to overlook those ideas I have not agreed with as a debate forum moderator to play the role of peacekeeper. I am expected to overlook...but now with the shoe on the other foot, such expectations asked of others reveals the same cannot be so. Saddens me....and few see the irony in that.

What some do not see...is that we do not speak out of a vacuum. We are all enculturated, and some the product of education other of parenting, other of life's circumstances that produce challenging hindsights. The formulation of ideas creates a foundation from which we view the world.

While I've been accused of using "worldviews" as a buzz word, a worldview is simply a set of colored glasses thru which we look at the world. A lifelong compilation of ideas which we have borrowed and are not the property of our sole ownership which finds agreement with enough persons to construct a position which can be categorized.

A person who is wholly fueled and impassioned to make art for the purpose of materialistic gain....may upon looking more deeply find a secularist materialistic outlook in life; might be more naturalist as concerns science...and so on. A person that might be more compelled to create as a form of engaging life's energies in celebration might be more cosmically humanistic or spiritual and other worldviews would describe them.

Now...not going off to tangents and extreme debate over that which I just shared there...my point is, our reasons for making art do not in and of themselves exist in a vacuum either; so without realizing it...people are by denying a spiritual forum taking the position that perhaps secularism or materialist reasons alone are the only acceptable glasses that we are to be allowed to look thru.

That is a form of censorship and intolerance that ought to make artists cringe...

my position as a debate forum moderator is that I cannot expect any privilege to share what I might if I do not support that right in others. That I have not agreed with a great deal and yet fulfill the role of peacekeeper shows and demonstrates my commitment of supporting that right. Now is the opportunity to demonstrate your willingness to support what others have as a right to share- even though you might not believe in it... thereby referencing for yourself an example of fairness. Since you would be indulging and tolerating others speaking in terms and ideas you do not agree with...you would therefore be working to secure for yourselves the expectations of owning that same privilege.

What I see and hear here is...people are not so willing, and artists are not as free, liberal in their thinking and as tolerant as perhaps they like to think...

Instead..I should expect that I cannot share something I'm excited about with others of like mind without someone barging in to break that up.

So...one more question then...

Is it unfair then for me to expect that I can take time to critique an artist's work at the exclusion of what time could have been spent helping others? Should not other artists be welcome to barge into that critique and cry foul and raise protest because in spending such time with that artist I have done so with exclusivity?

Think about it....its logical...and, it is further sad....

Larry

Wally's Mom
06-12-2003, 02:50 PM
Not because I want to read through more discussion of religious issues, but because I would like to have a place to post "religious art" and even more than that, I would like to view the religious art that others are producing.

Yes, I know that I can post "religious themed" art in the appropriate media forum but I would love to see other people's religious art, and it is seriously out of the question to scan all the forums -- there just aren't enough hours in the day.

blkros
06-12-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by LarrySeiler
first of all....I anticipate that a majority will not be in favor of such and simply my faith's precepts expect such opposition.

I will say though...that I personally am not in favor of a "Christian Arts" forum...at the exclusivity of other religions. I'd rather see a "Faith, Spirituality and the Arts" forum.

It doesn' really matter if a majority of the 20,000+ people here are in favor of it, it's ultimately Scott's decision.
Yes it would be good if it wasn't exclusively christian. Many of us agree on that.

Originally posted by LarrySeiler

What happened to my thread on Excellence is a prime example. Many did not bother to even speak as concerned the topic at hand, but rather to take issue with my right to speak to the idea of faith as motivation for my art making.

Interesting that people are interested and open to the mechanics of how I produce my art....but would object and even hold disdain to be confronted with the source and the why of my joy to make art. Yet...we talk about how we as artists pride ourselves in our liberalities, our incessant insistent rights of throwing off censorship, and so on. Yet...should people wish to discuss issues pertinent to the area of faith....then those as "thought police" would come in to stop the parade. Not interested in truth or the topic but only to repress the free exchange of ideas; ideas they disagree with or are vehmently opposed.

As one who you probably consider one of the 'thought police', I have to say that I've never disparaged your religion. What I have commented on is your condescending, self righteous, martyred attitude.
And by the way I did comment on the original topic, because one reason I was there was that I had some interest in it.

Originally posted by LarrySeiler

I have for several years dedicated myself to overlook those ideas I have not agreed with as a debate forum moderator to play the role of peacekeeper. I am expected to overlook...but now with the shoe on the other foot, such expectations asked of others reveals the same cannot be so. Saddens me....and few see the irony in that.


I see no irony in this, as I have not chosen to be a moderator, or been chosen to be a moderator, and therefore have no need for putting up a pretense of being 'neutral'.

Originally posted by LarrySeiler

Now...not going off to tangents and extreme debate over that which I just shared there...my point is, our reasons for making art do not in and of themselves exist in a vacuum either; so without realizing it...people are by denying a spiritual forum taking the position that perhaps secularism or materialist reasons alone are the only acceptable glasses that we are to be allowed to look thru.

That is a form of censorship and intolerance that ought to make artists cringe...

See my comment about Scott above. Nobody here can deny anything except Scott, he owns the place.

Originally posted by LarrySeiler

my position as a debate forum moderator is that I cannot expect any privilege to share what I might if I do not support that right in others. That I have not agreed with a great deal and yet fulfill the role of peacekeeper shows and demonstrates my commitment of supporting that right. Now is the opportunity to demonstrate your willingness to support what others have as a right to share- even though you might not believe in it... thereby referencing for yourself an example of fairness. Since you would be indulging and tolerating others speaking in terms and ideas you do not agree with...you would therefore be working to secure for yourselves the expectations of owning that same privilege.

What I see and hear here is...people are not so willing, and artists are not as free, liberal in their thinking and as tolerant as perhaps they like to think...

Instead..I should expect that I cannot share something I'm excited about with others of like mind without someone barging in to break that up.

No ones broken up the Creative Christianity thread, have they?

Originally posted by LarrySeiler

So...one more question then...

Is it unfair then for me to expect that I can take time to critique an artist's work at the exclusion of what time could have been spent helping others? Should not other artists be welcome to barge into that critique and cry foul and raise protest because in spending such time with that artist I have done so with exclusivity?

Think about it....its logical...and, it is further sad....

Larry
Huh? What the hell is the question there? I really don't understand that.

By the way, I voted yes.

El_Elegante
06-12-2003, 04:02 PM
I vote instead for a Wet Canvas Heaven forum.. It would be similar to a religeous forum and open to all denominations. The primary difference is that the only people allowed in it would be people that have attained a state similar to that of Nirvana. Those who may not have yet attained that state but are in direct contact with their chosen god or gods or lack thereof may also enter at the level of prophet. The forum would self regulate without any conflict or question since all members are either enlightend or hearing the will of god.. Anyone who tries to enter the forum that does not fall into one of the 2 criteria will be unquestionably and immediately banned and cast back into the more worldy pergatory of the remaining WC forums.. extremly unholy behavior may be grounds for eternal damnation in the Internet Bussiness Forum or be subject to eternal nitpicking from self proclaimed experts in Structured Critiques forum.

Make it so......

Rose Queen
06-12-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by El_Elegante I vote instead for a Wet Canvas Heaven forum...

...and you, I presume, would be its Patron Saint? :D



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lori
06-12-2003, 04:36 PM
larry,

your stigmata is showing.

El_Elegante
06-12-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by lori
larry,

your stigmata is showing. Is that like your epidermus? lol

RobinZ
06-12-2003, 05:09 PM
Larry said:

my point is, our reasons for making art do not in and of themselves exist in a vacuum either; so without realizing it...people are by denying a spiritual forum taking the position that perhaps secularism or materialist reasons alone are the only acceptable glasses that we are to be allowed to look thru.

Oh, Larry. Where do you get that? I don't think the people who object to creating a "religion forum" are saying that. And you can't assume they are not spiritual just because they don't want that forum.

What I'm hearing is that there is a fear of starting little enclaves that have the potential to be destructive to our little community as a whole. I think they're saying that there exists already a "good enough" place to discuss the spiritual aspects of art,if anyone so desires.

I think you are correct, though, that there's been an attempt, in at least one other thread, to challenge folks of like mind who were basically minding their own business. But it sounds to me like those folks handled themselves just fine.

That paragraph in your Excellence post about non-believers not being able to achieve the same excellence as believers offended people. Maybe you didn't mean for it to sound that way, but the result was, it offended people. And they reacted. And they are still reacting to that because you never apologised or said it didn't come out right, etc., and then you just up and left. And now you're reacting to the reactions, then the reactions to your reactions, on and on, the downward spiral that accomplishes nothing and just snatches away good energy from everyone that could be directed elsewhere. Just digging in deeper and deeper.

And if having a separate forum causes people to get more and more angry with each other, more and more polarized, I say, it's not worth it. Change my vote.

lori
06-12-2003, 05:17 PM
thank you robin...

THAT is what has been said over and over...and yet larry refuses to acknowledge his own FAULT in this mess...afterall, it IS his mess. and yet he continues to play the martyr...

i apologize for being a bit too ascerbic with my comment above, but i keep waiting for larry to admit his condecending attitude was uncalled for...and yet, it still hasn't happened.

i am mainly against this forum starting because i can imagine the hubris that would come from such a forum, as we have already witnessed here...many, MANY people have commented on it, on all 3 threads, and yet...the problem lies with those that reacted...not the originator of the comments...

somehow larry feels he is above all of the negativity that has arisen here...and yet, it was HIS comments that spurned it on...

El_Elegante
06-12-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by RobinZ
Larry said:


That paragraph in your Excellence post about non-believers not being able to achieve the same excellence as believers offended people.

Is that why my work is such crap? cause I'd be classified as a non-beleiver by most christians. Maybe so.. I've talked to a few people who said that they joined their local church mostly to make bussiness contacts.. and indeed their sales and bussiness improved. Perhaps I've been thinking about this all wrong.. maybe conservative christianity is the way for me to go.. I could be rolin in new clients. and consequently, in their eyes... i'd be acheiving more excellence..

Keith Russell
06-12-2003, 06:23 PM
Greetings:

I'm always 'crashing' the oil painting forum, and I post over in coloured pencils from time-to-time, as well.

K

sgtaylor
06-12-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by RobinZ
That paragraph in your Excellence post about non-believers not being able to achieve the same excellence as believers offended people. Maybe you didn't mean for it to sound that way, but the result was, it offended people. And they reacted. And they are still reacting to that because you never apologised or said it didn't come out right, etc., and then you just up and left. And now you're reacting to the reactions, then the reactions to your reactions, on and on, the downward spiral that accomplishes nothing and just snatches away good energy from everyone that could be directed elsewhere. Just digging in deeper and deeper.

Yes, that is what I reacted to, and I tried to say so elsewhere, but it is of no use.

One of the first threads in this forum was the "Spirituality and your art" thread. Christians and non-Christians peacefully coexisted in that thread.

But to borrow words from Dodger, a wedge has now been driven between Christians and non-Christians on this website.

Larry feels that he cannot speak of his faith because of the hatred of non-Christians.

I feel that I may not respond when non-Christians are belittled - deliberately or otherwise - because to do so is to be "venomous," "malicious," and the enemy of free speech.

It is indeed very sad.

I have not voted.

I have no idea which way to cast my vote.

Paintbrush74
06-12-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by impressionist2
There are many forums on wet canvas. I do not participate in several of them because some of the forums are not what I am interested in. That does not mean that I would ask the moderators, just because those forums do not interest me, that they should be done away with.

If there are 20,000 members of wet canvas, then it stands to reason, that many of that number are religious and are tuned into their religion, beliefs, when they do their painting, sculpting, etc..

We talk about art idols, music, philosophy that inspires us. Why not a place where we are able to speak about the strongest force, our faith, that influences our work.

There are "corners" on WC for all issues, tastes and styles. Why not one that many of us would like to have?

I voted "yes".

Renee

I agree with your post on all counts, but if it doesn't happen, I won't fret. The no votes are ahead by a fair margin.

Paintbrush74
06-12-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by El_Elegante


Is that why my work is such crap? cause I'd be classified as a non-beleiver by most christians. Maybe so.. I've talked to a few people who said that they joined their local church mostly to make bussiness contacts.. and indeed their sales and bussiness improved. Perhaps I've been thinking about this all wrong.. maybe conservative christianity is the way for me to go.. I could be rolin in new clients. and consequently, in their eyes... i'd be acheiving more excellence..



That reminds me of when I used to sell Avon. I'd been a church member for several years. People at church started asking for brochures and making orders, and that was okay, but I felt funny because I didn't want to give anyone the wrong idea. The church was growing and a lot of new people were coming in, some of whom were curious. I felt God telling me to back down, and I did.

Actually, joining any large group is a good way to get more contacts. As far as achieving excellence, I've seen artists whose work I think is excellent; some of them are Christians, some athiests, some are other religions, and some don't know what they believe. I've also seen artists of all kinds of beliefs, whose work I didn't think was all that excellent. Come to think of it, sometimes I feel that way about some of MY work. We could probably all relate to that.

Bendaini
06-12-2003, 08:33 PM
Pro: We could finally get a place where we could discuss our faith (whichever faith you prescribe too) and the way it effects our artistic side, or the way our artistic side effects our faith WITHOUT all those people coming in an harassing us and turning it into a debate.

Con: Some people will feel obliged to come in and give certain people trouble simply because it says belatedly "religion" and they like to do that sort of thing.

Pro: we will know where to go in order to post things of a religious nature.

Con: it is possible that ANY post in any forum would get shunted to a religious forum just because it has something to do with a god.



Also, I would like to note that Painterfool said ANY religion not just Christians. Therefore the remarks about "we don't need a Christian forum" are both true, and uncalled for since she didn't ask if we want a Christian forum, she asked whether or not we want a RELIGION AND BELIEFS forum where we could talk civilly about such things without making it into a debate.

That means Pagans, Witches, Mormons, Buddhists and Christians, as well as the thousand or so other religions in the world that there are, could all come in there and say anything they wanted.

Therefore, there is one last Con:
So many religions in one place it is likely that the forum would fill up very quickly.

Cathy Morgan
06-12-2003, 11:03 PM
I voted no because it seems to me that there's plenty of scope in the Creativity Corner for threads on spirituality and art.

Also, just from reading the posts on this thread so far, it's clear that some people would see it as inclusive, welcoming and respecting all faiths and forms of spirituality, while others would see it as a Christian forum. So right from the start, there's conflict.

I stopped posting in the Christianity thread because my posts were criticized as not being aligned with "true" Christianity. There seemed to be no room for more than one idea of what being a Christian is about. That doesn't seem like a good sign for a separate forum. Who defines "true" spirituality?

If there are lots of future threads on specific topics having to do with art and spirituality, and these threads do really enhance our artmaking, with a tone of inclusiveness and acceptance - then there might be more promise for a separate forum.

Right now, I think it would just be a mess.

LarrySeiler
06-12-2003, 11:12 PM
I do apologize for everything...



Larry

paintfool
06-13-2003, 05:56 AM
I've learned so much and changed my mind so many times while reading this discussion. Thanks (i think ;))

LarrySeiler
06-13-2003, 11:29 AM
Ordinarily....outsiders coming in to prosyletize and point members to another site is really discouraged here at WC for obvious reasons. However, in considering the conflict that I've been guilty of causing....and yet the fact that many have shown an interest in discussing spiritual matters pertaining to the arts, I don't think there will be great objections to letting people know that there does exist a listserv thru email a community of Christian visual artists, writers, photographers, designers...you name it.

We have our own website too....called "The Spiritual Mind"

There...we are welcome to discuss the importance and pertinence of faith to our art.

My mistake was thinking even though others might not appreciate and would definitely disagree with our beliefs...people would at least agree the right for us to talk about such as artists. I was wrong in my judgments concerning that.

My place has been definitely defined for me now....and the spanking got the message thru loud and clear, and I'm not saying I didn't have it coming. Again I apologize to all....

to check out "The Spiritual Mind" go to-
http://www.spiritualmind.org/

and though we live busy lives and sometimes the list is quiet, they are a great group of people...to check out the listserv aspect of "The Spiritual Mind" or "TSM" as we like to call it, go to-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualmind/

peace everyone....

Larry

LarrySeiler
06-13-2003, 11:42 AM
Not to start up another debate....but as one having been summarily put in his place and gone thru the process of a contrite heart, I would ask in fairness that this group and forum consider a rewording of your invitation to members on the forum page itself.

It has a phrase in its invitation to come and discuss-

"freeing the Creative spirit"

You see for many of us (or perhaps very few) ....we have our unpopular ideas of what a free spirit is about....how the spirit becomes free...and how having become free such will effect our creativity. Might want to consider how to reword that since that is not wholly and entirely true...or at least not without serious restrictions and repercussions.

Not to be crass....but read that invitation empathetically from the perspective of standing in my shoes as well as others that believe as I do. After all do a little detective work as in trying to get into the mindset...and ask why I chose this forum to begin with over all the others?

peace,


Larry

jimb
06-13-2003, 11:59 AM
Larry,
I don't know quite what to say, but I'm glad that you do have a place where you can discuss your art and faith in a safe and respectful place. I'm sorry that you experienced all this, but it has confirmed some things that I thought anyway.
I have more to say but I don't feel good about saying it here. Maybe I'll join you on your listserv or send you a pm some time.
Wishing you well....

Cathy Morgan
06-13-2003, 01:30 PM
Larry, I believe that you have as much right as anyone to say what you believe here at Wet Canvas. None of us will ever please everyone here, and eventually someone will feel offended by what we say, no matter how tactful we try to be.

I appreciate your mentioning the mailing list and website, because it will surely be a more comfortable place for sharing certain views that will be less popular here.

However - no "relationship problem" is ever one-way. It's always shared. No one person ever "causes conflict."

I appreciate your taking responsibility and apologizing, and I'd like to do the same. I was provocative and mischievous in the Christianity thread, for which I do apologize. And I also apologize for criticizing you in an indirect way in my earlier post here. That was totally out of line.

I can understand it if you feel reluctant to write here at Wet Canvas about your views on how your creative spirit is freed. But if you do choose to do so, I certainly agree that you have every right to do it. It will "come across better" if you express it in terms of your own personal experience rather than generalizations. However, I understand that this isn't really the way you want to do it. I've also been in situations in which all that mattered to me was to express what I believed, and act accordingly - letting people react however they wished. I cared about being clear and strong, but not about "coming across better." So maybe that's fine for you right now too.

You do have a unique and valued place in the Wet Canvas community, even if it's not always comfortable for you or others.

Keith Russell
06-14-2003, 03:13 AM
Larry said:
"You see for many of us (or perhaps very few) ....we have our unpopular ideas of what a free spirit is about...how the spirit becomes free...and how having become free such will effect our creativity."

Yeah, right, sure, whatever you say.

Christianity is the world's largest religion.

And, over 95 percent of the world's human population believes in some sort of 'God', 'afterlife', etc.

Larry, you cannot honestly claim to be in any sort of minority.

It is instead we atheists who can honestly claim that status...

K

ArtistOz
06-18-2003, 02:12 AM
What a weird and interesting site Wet Canvas is and very addictive too.

And, over 95 percent of the world's human population believes in some sort of 'God', 'afterlife', etc.

If Keith is right then discussions about the religious or spiritual nature of our lives or art will always be cropping up in different threads.

How many of us can divorce our beliefs from our work anyway, whether they are spiritual, psychological, paronoid or technical, remember the 'what is drawing?' thread, disagreeing does not necessarily mean conflict, conflict cames when the desire to be right is more important than the desire to get along.

I am all for it if it means people can share their spiritual insights with their art without being overtaken by dogma whatever their religious/atheist beliefs. We do have the debates forum where we can get a bloody nose if we want .

impressionist2
06-18-2003, 07:37 AM
FYI, it's interesting to me-really interesting- that when Hummingbird and I started talking offlist about forming a Creativity Forum, it was about two weeks from the inception of our idea to the formation of the Forum.

But, then ofcourse, I was in the moderators good graces then. Political POVs hadn't been discussed then.

So, I e-mailed Cheryl, Scott et al and pushed for this forum. Pat backed me up with the request. I promised Scott a second donation if he allowed the forum to form. See, at that time, there weren't any moderators who were against a Creativity forum. It's okay for artists to be creative and talk about it. PS: In two weeks, with NO vote, Wet Canvas had a brand new forum! This one.


But..........................it's not okay for WCers to talk about their religion. Two out of the three religious threads in this forum have been banished to the WC version of hell-the Debates forum. Where moderators who have a stake in it, can end their angst over things being discussed here, that they wish weren't.

My good guess is they wish a fight would break out in the Creative Christianity thread, so they could once and for all purge this forum of any shred of religion. Talk about a slanted POV. It must gall them that the thread is continuing in peace. Note to the people who support that thread: Please keep it that way-Peaceful!

Anyway, if an actual fair vote were to be taken it would have to be on Every forum in the community. Not one, where certain people who Never were seen here up till the first religious thread started, have loaded the vote. It's the old pile-on that those familiar with debates know all too well.

Renee

blkros
06-18-2003, 07:49 AM
Gee Renee, thanks for letting me know that I loaded the vote. Especially since I voted yes, and stated so.

impressionist2
06-18-2003, 07:52 AM
Keith, As you have said to me in the past, "What makes you think I was talking to You?"

Renee

jimb
06-18-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by impressionist2
FYI, it's interesting to me-really interesting- that when Hummingbird and I started talking offlist about forming a Creativity Forum, it was about two weeks from the inception of our idea to the formation of the Forum.

But, then ofcourse, I was in the moderators good graces then. Political POVs hadn't been discussed then.

So, I e-mailed Cheryl, Scott et al and pushed for this forum. Pat backed me up with the request. I promised Scott a second donation if he allowed the forum to form. See, at that time, there weren't any moderators who were against a Creativity forum. It's okay for artists to be creative and talk about it. PS: In two weeks, with NO vote, Wet Canvas had a brand new forum! This one.


But..........................it's not okay for WCers to talk about their religion. Two out of the three religious threads in this forum have been banished to the WC version of hell-the Debates forum. Where moderators who have a stake in it, can end their angst over things being discussed here, that they wish weren't.

My good guess is they wish a fight would break out in the Creative Christianity thread, so they could once and for all purge this forum of any shred of religion. Talk about a slanted POV. It must gall them that the thread is continuing in peace. Note to the people who support that thread: Please keep it that way-Peaceful!

Anyway, if an actual fair vote were to be taken it would have to be on Every forum in the community. Not one, where certain people who Never were seen here up till the first religious thread started, have loaded the vote. It's the old pile-on that those familiar with debates know all too well.

Renee

Yep. You nailed it!

Borum
06-18-2003, 10:39 AM
After reading all these threads I have one question...Does God/god really care about all this?


Peace

paintfool
06-18-2003, 11:08 AM
Well it does appear that this conversation has run it's full course.
Thank you to everyone who has particpated. :)
Cheryl