calculating prices

[bluespade]

When you estimate costs of art going into a show, do you figure in the costs of art that didn't work out or that might not sell. It seems that to make a profit, I can't just include the $50-100 for the specialty prints (giclee) I am making, but I should figure that only half of the images (not the prings, with giclee I can print them on demand) will sell within the year. In other words, in addition to what ever time/effort and other costs I figure when calulating a price, should I include "non selling" attempts?

Does this question make any sense? (It's 2am....).

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Doug
Blue Spade Productions

[bruin70]

NO,,,,base your pricing on the quality of your work, how well they sell, and how long they take to sell. you want to avoid wide fluctuations in pricing, else clients will query as to why one piece is so much more than another of seemingly equal value. it is also best to let the gallery price your work IN THE BEGINNING. they know their market. once you get started, you should handle the pricing. remember,,,take care of yourself,,,don't expect others to. watch how your work sells and raise your price in increments. also remember,,,you can't go back. clients won't like the idea of buying art and see the prices go down the next year.

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"he who thinks he know all and knows nothing is king in a kingdom of one,,,,,or a critic" - {MILT}

[bluespade]

I guess I didn't post the question well. (hey, it was 2am!)

What I meant was, when determining the price, I would think the following would be the formula:

P = M + T + G +Z

p= price, m= materials, t = value of your time, g = gallery owner's take, and z = that mysterious guess at what the market will pay for a certain quality, etc.

In the M category, I imagined it would just be the cost of printing my images and postage. Now, however, I am thinking that the M should also be doubled or tripled to cover those works that never sell. Otherwise, I am just breaking even, if the profits from any sale go right back into debt from the printers for those that don't sell (or don't sell within a year or so, and thus don't free up the profit). Make sense.

Here's an example. I'll make a 16x20 giclee print of one of my digital images. That will cost me about $60 to print, plus $10 of postage (the printers I like to use are in NY) or a fraction of the train ride to NY City and back. Regarding my effort and time, I guess I would be happy to make $100 on an image, since I spend probably about 10 hours or so on any given image (more if you count the time on images that didn't work). Then there's what I pay the gallery which I think is another $150 (30-50%). Some prints I've seen by other amatuer artists in DC sell for about $300-450. So Z might equal $50-100, depending on popularity.

So, so far, I'm on target and producing a nice giclee print that is durable, on nice watercolor paper, nicely sized and in the range of the market for other "emerging" or beginners.

Here's the problem: Even if I sell half of my prints (not likely!), I'm losing money on those that don't sell, thus eating up a good chunk of my profit. Profit is not T, but rather profit= (T + Z) - (Materials) - (Gallery owner) - (whatever I would normally value my time if not making/selling art). However, if I have not included the art that didn't sell, then I need to subtrat that, which is best done by just multiplying M by 2 or 3. Which kind of eats up (T+Z) pretty darn fast. No?

Do I need to draw a picture? : )

My goal is to just make enough to keep this hobby/dream from bankrupting me.

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Doug
Blue Spade Productions

[shair]

Doug,



I get your dilema, however what Milt says is still true. The print market is hard to navigate, and it is a different thing all together, but as far as pricing goes, it is the value of a particular piece (original OR print) that your prices should be based upon.



If you are having a hard time with selling some of your stock, and deciding what should be printed, look into some print publishers. They will pay for the printing, and you get a smaller percentage, but not so much out-of -pocket expense. Also, these are professionals, and their opinions on what to p[rint are often valuable.



Also, your galleries can help you decide what is good to print. They usually know what they can sell, so ask them their opinion.



Sarah

[sandge]

Doug, I think you'll find that z in your calculation will also depend on the gallery. Your prices will go up depending on the reputation of the place you're showing in. They, not you, will be able to sell those works at that price based on their expertise and contacts. Going up price-wise is not without difficulties as you will lose some collectors who may not be able afford you anymore and will have to find a new market. And, as others have pointed out, you've got to keep your pricing consistent - there's no going back. This is a problem if the gallery decides they've saturated their market with your works and want to move on to other artists.
I agree with shair that you should also consider print publishers. They will have access to a much larger market than a single gallery - for instance, poster shops and department stores. If you produce work they can sell worldwide you're looking to make some serious money!
Personally, I think you're worrying too much about not selling. From what I've seen of your work here, I think you'll have a lot of success and the business of whether to include a single image or many images in M will not be relevant. Don't wait for whatever it is you're waiting for, take the prints that you've got round to some galleries or print publishers and ask their opinion. If they think they can sell your work, they'll be only to happy to talk to you.
s

[bruin70]

well doug,,,,you should take Z out of the equation. you will know by how well you sell. no point in getting ahead of yourself. and T as well. you are rewarded (as an artist) with the inner gratification of a well done piece. you can't put a time value on that. you shouldn't be counting your minutes, and you're not punching a time clock. G can be dangerous. there is an ego thing involved here,,,,,,why should a gallery get THIS much, you say to yourself,,,,hell, i'm the artist.....and you would be right. but the pricing might get out of hand because of it. i think you're getting way ahead of yourself. if your art sells very well, then you can dictate. you're new(or so it sounds),,,so don't anticipate. just work on your art and everything will fall into place......{M}

[bruin70]

btw doug...i don't know what kind of prints you do. but if you plan to roll off hundreds, then materials is your only concern. you make your money on volume. what you should think about doing is showing your art in several galleries to get a broad demographic.....{M}

[CT]

Doug,
You're getting some pretty good advice from some of the other folks on here, but I thought I'd chime in.

I sell many, many prints and we market them the same as one would sell cars or cans of soup or whatever. When you are spending lots of money in production, etc., you need to know your profit margin or you can get into trouble.

However, when I price my originals, which I did with my dealer just today, the asking price has virtually nothing to do with the material cost or the labor factor. It's based on what we feel the painting can and/or should bring.

When you're just starting out you need to pay your dues, so don't count on a "profit" on everything you sell. You're just sowing your seeds now, the profits will come with the harvest.

Good Luck....CT

[animal]

I was wondering how would you price your art,like supplies x labourxframing or mat

[arlene]

Doug,
The advice given is excellent. If you're doing the gallery route, listen to the Immortal One. If you're doing the artfair route, here is the formula I loosely use. Again, as the Immortal One said, when just starting out, better to underprice your work. As He said, you can always raise your prices, but you can never go backwards.

Let's use one of my imaginary pieces as a for instance.

I want to sell a 10" x 10" x 2" framed paper sculpture.

a. First I figure out the # of hours it takes to produce one piece.
[Let's use a figure of 5 hours.]
b. I then figure out what dollar amount per hour my labor is worth.
[To make it easy, let's use a figure of $20/hour.]
c. Multiply 'a' x 'b' to get your labor cost.
[5 hours x $20=$100. for labor]
d. I add up my material costs. This would include paper, mat, frame, glass, beads, etc.
[Let's say I use $20. in materials.]
e. Add together 'c' + 'd'
[c-$100. + d-$20 = $120. or the cost in materials and labor to complete this piece]

f. Now for the hard part. Figuring out indirect costs. First I add up those OTHER
expenses from the previous year. Shows, travel, gas, food at shows, advertising, electric, rent, new tools, booth display, lights, stamps, etc.
[For our purposes, let's say I spent $20,000 last year on all those OTHER expenses]
g. Now I figure out approximately how many hours per week I worked. This includes
creating, doing shows,advertising,bookeeping, letter writing, filling out apps, etc.
[For our example, say I worked on average 50 hours per week]
h. Multiply 'g' x 52 weeks.
[In our example, multiply 50 hours x 52 weeks/year = 2,600 hours]
i. Now I divide my indirect costs 'f' by the number of hours worked last year 'h'.
[ f-$20,000 divided by h-2,600 = $7.69. THIS IS MY INDIRECT COST PER HOUR]
j. Now multiply 'i' {indirect cost} by 'a' {the number of hours this piece took to
complete.}
[$7.69 per hour/indirect costs x 5 hours to complete the piece = $38.45 in indirect costs
to complete one piece.]

k. So far I have my direct costs and the indirect costs. As a business, I need to add a profit margin. For our purposes, say I want to make a profit of $5.00 per hour.
[ 5 hours to complete the piece x $5.00 per hour = $25.00]

Now for the grand finale. I add it up to see what I need to sell this piece for.

Add together 'e' {materials and labor} + 'j' {indirect costs} + 'k' {profit} = selling
price
[e-$120.00 + j-$38.45 + k-$25.00 = $183.45 is what I have to sell my piece for to make a
profit and pay my expenses. Usually I just round it up to the next five or in this case
$185.00

If you're just starting out, I wouldn't use a $20/hour figure, but something lower. Better to get your work selling and in demand, and then raise prices.

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http://www.artdebut.com/arlene0.htm