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Crias
05-31-2003, 07:34 PM
Wow this forum feels so sparkly clean and new- time to fill it up!!

Gotta question on what format you guys (and gals) save your pictures in. When I first got my camera I used to reduce everything in size, then save medium jpg. Now I don't shrink anything, but still don't save maximum jpg or convert anything to tiff and am starting to wonder if I should be?? I know jpg looses quality each time it is opened, so am wondering how you all save your works? Do you save everything as jpg (and what quality??), do you save everything as something else (tif?), do you save most jpg and your best as tifs, or something else completely? If I go back and do save as and save at a higher quality jpg will it help now, or are the first saves the most important?

All input on the topic would be helpful to me. I'm leaving tomorrow for 6 days, so if I don't respond this week I'll be sure to check it out when I get back with my 1000 images from my trip!

Thanks in advance!

geckonia
05-31-2003, 08:13 PM
TIFF!!!! I open the .jpeg from the camera... fuss with it... save as TIFF... then reduce, sharpen and save as a .jpg. When you go to close the file it will ask you if you want to save the changes... say NO! You don't want the small one to overwrite the TIFF.

You could use .PSD... but I use TIFF because it offers me LZW lossless compression.... may just be a mac option?

Where are you going???

BeyondTheNineSquares
05-31-2003, 08:48 PM
Great advice Anne! I do want to encourage backing up your files though! I try to remember to do that before I work with my images. It has saved me losing precious files since I started doing that.

geckonia
05-31-2003, 09:01 PM
Good point, Martha... you can "save as" a TIFF first, that way you won't lose your original .jpg by accident.

Lesley
05-31-2003, 09:52 PM
Always save as a Tiff. If you don't you will have to adjust the colour each time you open it. Another point too is, if you want to email a photo and you want the person at the other end to be able to print it then change the image size to 300dpi and then save the image as a jpg at level 6. This will bring the size of the file down but will not bring the size of the actual image down.
Even if your camera takes RAW and Jpg as mine does then you can still save as a TIFF.

bairam
06-01-2003, 01:29 AM
Thanks for asking this question Cathy. It was something I've been wondering about also.

AriadneArts
06-01-2003, 01:56 AM
I shoot in fine quality jpeg. I leave each image as is until I open it to mess with. First thing I do, BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, is save as a Tiff. That way, I have the original exactly as is, but uncompressed as a Tiff. (I don't open that original jpeg again if I can avoid it.) Then I take that tiff and have my way with it. I do everything I want to it EXCEPT crop or resize. When I have it exactly the way I want it in terms of levels, contrast, sharpness, saturation, I save it AS IS. Then, I rename it and save it again as a jpeg. This new jpeg is what I do my cropping on, along with any other "special effects" I might want to try. Then I resize it. After resizing, I do a low-level unsharp mask and save it. This is the one I post. If I need to post this image several times, in several places, I return to the Tiff, rename it and save as another jpeg and redo my cropping, resizing, etc. This way, I always have a fresh undeteriorated copy for posting.

The past year, this has worked well for me, but I'm certainly open to new and better ideas (except raw--I'm definitely not ready for the raw thing yet).

DuncanBerenice
06-01-2003, 03:05 AM
I've always used jpeg for saving. I have used tiff before as 1 programe I have uses tiff. I haven't looked into it properly - maybe I should. I understood that when saving a image in jpeg the quality changed each time you saved it I didn't know that it was each time you open, hmmm might just do it in tiff and save in jpeg for the internet

When I'm manipulating in PSP7 I save in .psp then once I've finished I saved it as jpeg - I keep both files

thanks for the thread Cathy

enjoy your trip

Duncan

TeAnne
06-01-2003, 03:13 AM
I learnt something, thanks guys :D I am J.peg all the way. Better change my ideas.

labang
06-01-2003, 05:29 AM
Thanks for asking this Creas, I have always saved in jpeg but will as from now save as tiff and work with the copies.

Elly

haggis63
06-01-2003, 06:52 AM
Opening a jpg repeatedly is not going to reduce it's quality. The problems will only arise if you keep saving the file. I keep all my originals untouched. Just treat them like negatives. If I alter the image I save the end result under a different file name. If I'm half way through working on it I save it as a .psp.

RAW sound good but I don't currently have the disk space for it.

Alan

SunnyJon
06-01-2003, 08:22 AM
Geez I'm the odd man out here! If my camera takes it in jpeg that's how I generally leave it and work form copies but if it takes in TIFF then I do the same. I always work from copies. Maybe I ought to do the same TIFF thingy!:D I'm rating this thread very good info and something we don't often discuss!

Crias
06-01-2003, 09:22 AM
Thanks for the info guys! Looks like I should be saving in tiffs:eek: :rolleyes: !! One more question...is there any way to mass rename/change extention in PS7, or do I have to do them all one at a time? With over 10,000 images on my computer, I might just go back to my favorites and also do this will all the new ones.

BTW I am going to Montana and back through Yellowstone- so should get some great photos hopefully!

I rated this thread too- make it easier to find when I get back and it seems this is woth talking about for those of us that are dunces on the subject :D

Bobby D
06-01-2003, 09:54 AM
Thanks Cathy for starting this thread and to everyone else for their input I have often wondered about this.

BeyondTheNineSquares
06-01-2003, 12:31 PM
Hey Everyone! This sure is a helpful thread indeed. I want to second the motion on what was said earlier in the thread about "saving" a jpg being the cause of degrading the image and not just "opening" the file. This is how it was explained to me, and makes sense with what I've seen. The only danger of "opening" the original jpg files is that you might get into "fixing" them from that file rather than the duplicate of the image that you've "saved as" another file name. I've crossed that line unintentionally now and then so I try and back up to a
CD to avoid it. I am a bit picky about getting things thoroughly backed up, since I lost a computer a while back and lost a lot of files I hadn't backed up. Fortunately I didn't have a digi back then and didn't lose any photographs.

People have mentioned rating this thread. I think that's a good idea. I've never done it before. Must be some corner of the screen I've not noticed. I'll have to look around!

BeyondTheNineSquares
06-01-2003, 12:35 PM
Ah, found the rating area right on the lower part of the screen. Wonder what else I've missed?

Flehmen
06-01-2003, 12:39 PM
G'day guys,

Well, I use a few formats while working on my files but if I had to choose one it'd be TIFF. Lossless, can do compression (even on the PC), and can be given to other people as almost everyone can do Tiff.

I use psp and psd for paint and photoshop respectively if I am using and of their special features in the middle of editing files. When done I'll flatten and convert to Tiff for storage.

Finally I use JPEG from my digital camera and like Alan treat them like origional films. You can open them as often as you want but never resave them.

Take care all,
Flehmen

geckonia
06-01-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Crias
is there any way to mass rename/change extention in PS7, or do I have to do them all one at a time?

Why whould you want to do that?

jsr88
06-01-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Crias
One more question...is there any way to mass rename/change extention in PS7, or do I have to do them all one at a time?

Cathy, changing the extension of a file isn't going to change the actual format of the image. If that's what you were talking about...and I think it is. I know that in PSPv8 you can do a batch conversion...but I'd think you'd be better off picking and choosing from those 10k images. :D

Thanks for asking this question, too, Cathy. It's something I've wondered about for some time.

I've not gotten to the point where I need or choose to work with tiff files, mainly because I fail to remember that I *should*. I always work with a copy of the original, giving it a suffix of -01 or -02 depending on the amount of adjustment or manipulation I've done. Oh...and as much as I like to "surf" my photos, it's a darn good thing that OPENING the jpeg *doesn't* change the quality. Cuz by now...my photos would be non-existent! :D

geckonia
06-01-2003, 02:35 PM
OK, thanks Julie :D
yeah.... just think of the JPEG from the camera as the NEG and the TIFF as the PRINT... You don't print every neg.... just the ones you need at the time. If you converted all your JPEG's to TIFF's the amount of space they would take up would be astronomical. That's why I only save TIFF's of the ones I've put some time into.

jsr88
06-01-2003, 03:53 PM
Geck, I'm curious. When you work with a tiff file, being as they are so huge...do you notice a big difference in the time it takes to process the adjustments?

AriadneArts
06-01-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by geckonia
OK, thanks Julie :D
yeah.... just think of the JPEG from the camera as the NEG and the TIFF as the PRINT... You don't print every neg.... just the ones you need at the time. If you converted all your JPEG's to TIFF's the amount of space they would take up would be astronomical. That's why I only save TIFF's of the ones I've put some time into.

Excellent way of putting it Geck. And, giving credit where credit is due, you are the one who first instructed me to change my working pieces to Tiffs. I've since worked out my own method on the way going about working a piece, but the initial idea was a gift from your vast repertoire of experience which you so generously share and from which I have benefitted greatly. Sometimes I may forget to thank you for all of your help, but the appreciation is definitely there. Just thought I'd put that out there. :D

Kevin M
06-01-2003, 05:04 PM
A good habit to adopt is to ensure that your jpeg images straight from the camera are set to 'read only'. Some downloaders do this (eg. BreezeDownloader) but some dont. Editing a read- only reuires you to save as different name or format. By having an original read-only file you always have a negative so-to-speak irrespective of the format. Degradation due to lossy only hapens if you resave an edited and altered image in jpeg but jpeg is small and convenient for mass storing of unedited originals. Edited images are best stored in tiff or psd format.

Kevin

DuncanBerenice
06-01-2003, 05:23 PM
so, would I be doing wrong, when I download from my camera it's in jpeg, I open each file then save as in jpeg, then I delete the downloaded image.

I'm now thinking that I should really keep them as the original numbers given by the camera and then keep them in a dated folder and then burn them on to cd, and then keep the ones I really like as tiff (as been suggested) in another folder (burned onto cd) - yip set up a proper filing system :D

I would have never thought of using the jpegs as negative and the prints as tiffs

thanks for the info folks, as Eileen says it's really appreciated

I've probably answered me own question :rolleyes: :D

Duncan

geckonia
06-01-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by jsr88
Geck, I'm curious. When you work with a tiff file, being as they are so huge...do you notice a big difference in the time it takes to process the adjustments?

No, because even an open jpeg takes the same amount of room... it's only compressed when it's closed.

Thanks, Eileen... as an Aquarian, it's my duty. :D

Duncan!!!! :eek: never write over your originals!!! :D You knew that! ;)

I actually run my photo through a program called Cameraid first, which is a mac thingie, where I can see them all full screen and go through them with a push of the > button and give them grades. The ones with a zero or better get thumbnails and a new filename. It does this without having to save them again. I name them: sequential number_fstop_shutterspeed.jpg Then I open the folder and delete all the ones that didn't get a thumbnail. The good thing about this is I can see instantly what my settings were when I'm looking at them in the Photoshop Browser. Then I open a file, work on it, save as TIFF and just add the TIFF extension to the file name. That way the TIFF is right there next to the original .jpg.


Eileen, the only *problem* I see with your workflow is it sounds like you're saving as a jpeg twice... I doubt that's a big deal though, as long as you're using "maximum quality."

jsr88
06-01-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by geckonia


No, because even an open jpeg takes the same amount of room... it's only compressed when it's closed.



Oh...DUH! :rolleyes: I *knew* that! (I just didn't remember that I *did*) :D

Ok...NOW I'm going to try it! ;)

geckonia
06-01-2003, 06:34 PM
LOL.... well I had to think about it a moment before I answered too... :D

MissMouse
06-01-2003, 07:42 PM
First question are you going to print this photo for sale? I guarantee all my photos for 25 years if they fade I will replace them. So....I save all printed final work material in a file high end jpg.

All other photos are saved as they come out of the camera in high end jpg. I work on a copy so am never working on the original. I never save anything in tiff.

All my photos and work are backed up on a CD. Which came in handy when my computer caught fire a few days ago and was totally trashed. Nothing was lost :-)

geckonia
06-01-2003, 10:56 PM
Mouse, do you mean you save the jpeg at quality 10? That's probably ok... but only for one round of editing.

I usually leave my TIFF's in layers, like a B&W will have a hue/sat layer for tone. If I ever change how I want to tone my image, I can easily go back to that layered TIFF and change it. You can't save layers with jpeg, so they're limited in that way.

I highly suggest you consider TIFF!!!! :D

RAE99
06-01-2003, 11:54 PM
Cathy,

One thing about JPG and losing quality. You can open a JPG 1000 times and the quality remains the same when you close it... UNLESS you REsave it. That is the only time JPG's will lose quality... by opening and REsaving them again and again. Just opening and closing a JPG changes nothing in regards to quality regardless of the number of times the file is opened. Even opening a JPG two or three times and resaving it each time isn't going to alter the quality visually... only when you do it continually.

Also, if you are using Photoshop, the preferred file resave would be to PSD which is the Photoshop format. Since the file size is about 10 times larger with TIF and PSD, I seldom resave to them. Instead, I open the original JPG and duplicate it, then close the original and work on the copy. If I then need to save it with layers intact, I do save it as a PSD file, which preserves the layers. However, if I'm sure I'm done manipulating it, I simply resave it as a JPG under a new name and avoid the monster filesizes of the TIF and PSD formats.

;)

Ron

geckonia
06-02-2003, 12:09 AM
Ron, why not use TIFF with LZW lossless compression instead of PSD?

I just did a test on a file from my 990:

1.1 mb as a jpeg (original file)
4.3 mb as a TIFF with LZW
8.9 mb as a PSD

...that's why I never use PSD... there is no compression. So, now I'm curious... can you give me a more compelling reason why PSD is "preferred?" Thanks!

RAE99
06-02-2003, 12:23 AM
Anne,

Here is Adobe's answer to that question.

http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/2c16a.htm?code=TA

(Also, PS6 or earlier users would have to save in PSD format if they want to save with layers. 6 won't save a TIF with layers.)

;)

Ron

Lesley
06-02-2003, 04:38 AM
I would like to add to what I said previously. I have always worked in tiff and I send files to be printed in jpg to the printer who prints my greeting cards. Sorry I said that it was every time I opened it it would alter it. It is every time you resave as a jpg as you are compressing it each time. A word of warning though. If you only have a jpg and you have saved it as a jpg you cannot change it to a TIFF as you have already compressed the file and you can't stretch it. I tried it once and it doesn't work. There was another question about psd. If you save in psd it means that you can work on the layers. It's a huge file so it is best to back up if you are going to do that. Most of my files need to be suitable for printing so I have to save with no loss of quality.

Oldthumbs
06-02-2003, 09:06 AM
If I may, I would like to clarify something in this thread. Everyone may already know this, but saving your original jpeg file as a tiff does not improve the quality of the image. What it does, is save the image in a format that is "lossless," meaning that when you save it, you keep all the picture "information" that was originally in the file. Therefore, your picture will stay the same with each save as a tiff.

A jpeg is a "lossy" format - when you save something as a jpeg, you lose some of the information that was in the original file and cannot recover it. This is why the picture gets worse each time you save it as a jpeg; it loses info at each save.

When you use the jpeg format for your camera's default format, you have already lost some of the information in the picture. Saving it as the highest quality, highest resolution jpeg is best, but info is still lost. That's why some people use the RAW format - it is all the information in the original file. Resaving the camera's jpeg as a tiff does not recover any of that information.

Ray

geckonia
06-02-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by RAE99
Anne,

Here is Adobe's answer to that question.

http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/2c16a.htm?code=TA

Thanks, Ron... but that doesn't answer my question. That page looks like a trouble shooting guide for people experiencing a slowdown with large files with layers. It's saying to flatten your tiff if it's too slow... well.... that's another issue all together! Both formats can get large with layers, and I never in my life placed a PSD document into a page layout program. I still prefer TIFF for the reason I mentioned above... at least it has compression!

Yup... you're right about LZW compressed TIFF being a new feature. I used to use PSD untill TIFF offered layers, since then I've never used it. Just didn't see a need for the larger files.

geckonia
06-02-2003, 12:01 PM
I just did another test.... on a layered file. I opened the original jpeg and duplicated the background layer. I saved it as a TIFF with LZW compression and RLE layer compression (faster saves, bigger files) which is the one I use when I have layers. Then I opened the original jpeg again, duped the bg layer and saved as a PSD. Once again, the TIFF is smaller.

Original jpeg 1.1mb

2 layers TIFF with LZW and RLE 22.2mb
2 layers PSD 26.8mb

When I saved the 2 layered TIFF with LZW and ZIP layer compression (slower saves, smaller files) the file size went down even more, to a mere 13.8mb.

I strongly suggest you consider TIFF! :D

AriadneArts
06-02-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by geckonia


Eileen, the only *problem* I see with your workflow is it sounds like you're saving as a jpeg twice... I doubt that's a big deal though, as long as you're using "maximum quality."

Yep, you got that one right, Geck--re: saving as a jpeg twice! Reason? Several times early on I made all the changes I wanted for the "working" jpeg and forgot and saved it as the tiff, which then screwed up my tiff and I had to go back and reopen the original jpeg and start over, so this was my solution. I've got "oldtimer's disease". LOL. I think my way is working okay so far though, but I'm always on the lookout for a better solution. As long as I've got that original Tiff to go back to for tweaking, cropping and resizing if I need another web copy, I feel like I'm okay.

Of course I'm waiting for Dev to step in here and tell me that it's "RAW" I'm really after. LOL. Don't know what's taken him so long, I'm sure he's straining at the bit. But never fear, he'll be here eventually. And I know he's right. I just don't feel ready for all that tsouras yet.

geckonia
06-02-2003, 07:47 PM
OK.... I see where our methods split paths... I save the TIFF after I've done the cloning, etc... then I resize IT and save as a .jpg. I'm so used to doing it this way I've never overwritten the TIFF.... but it is possible... I have to remember to say NO when I go to close it so I don't end up with a 500px wide TIFF...

edit: actually... I just remembered... I have screwed up and written over my tiff with the 500px file..lol :rolleyes:

So, your way is smart, and I can see why you work that way.

I also think RAW is getting easier to deal with since Adobe came out with ARC... but I hear ya on that one too... it might not be right for you.

devbrain
06-03-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by AriadneArts

Of course I'm waiting for Dev to step in here and tell me that it's "RAW" I'm really after. LOL. Don't know what's taken him so long, I'm sure he's straining at the bit. But never fear, he'll be here eventually. And I know he's right. I just don't feel ready for all that tsouras yet.

You know you wanna ... why deny yourself?

Just go RAW.

AriadneArts
06-03-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by devbrain


You know you wanna ... why deny yourself?

Just go RAW.

Thanks for the morning laugh out loud, Dev. :D:D:D I think I just woke up the whole house. :clap:

Crias
06-07-2003, 09:56 AM
Thank you everyone for the excellent information in this thread!

photographer45
06-07-2003, 03:24 PM
Okay...here's another question....

If you open a .jpg original file, make an adjust to THAT image, print, but then don't save the adjustments you made, will THAT decrease the image quality? Or ONLY if you save?

Good thread.

AriadneArts
06-07-2003, 03:29 PM
MJ, I'm quite sure it's ONLY if you save. But that's why I do a Tiff on the original, tweak it to what I'd want in ANY pic, and then save it. I never resize or crop the Tiff or do any special effect manips. That way I always have a "ready to go" original and can do what I need to re: size, etc. for whatever use I'm putting it to when saved as a jpeg.

Flehmen
06-07-2003, 08:09 PM
G'day MaryJane,

No, only if you save it. The image in your computer memory is represented however the program you're using chooses to do such a thing. But when you save it, then the lossy compression comes into play.

Another example is if you have a JPEG, open it, and save it as a TIFF, for instance, you will have no more image degredation than you had in the original JPEG file.

Flehmen

ChynaRose
06-30-2003, 07:23 PM
This is very informative. I always archive in Tiff. Actually I only save in jpeg for web or emails.

Crias..there is a way to change all the extensions at once on several files. This is a piece of it but I have never been able to do it. I am mentioning this hoping someone can add to it so I can figure out what the heck I am doing wrong.

Go to file...automate....batch....change to tiff and record it as a new action which will automatically change any file you want.

I know something is missing. Anyone know? I copied this at a lecture & tried it...but...can't seem to get it.

Lea

jsr88
06-30-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by ChynaRose
This is very informative. I always archive in Tiff. Actually I only save in jpeg for web or emails.

Crias..there is a way to change all the extensions at once on several files. This is a piece of it but I have never been able to do it. I am mentioning this hoping someone can add to it so I can figure out what the heck I am doing wrong.

Go to file...automate....batch....change to tiff and record it as a new action which will automatically change any file you want.

I know something is missing. Anyone know? I copied this at a lecture & tried it...but...can't seem to get it.

Lea

Good question, Lea. When I worked with people doing embroidery digitizing, I had a very hard time trying to explain the difference between "converting" a file to a format that was accepted by various digitizing software and merely changing the extension of a graphic file from, say, .jpg to .gif.

They could not grasp the idea that unless the file was *actually* converted to a different format using a graphic editing program (not just a 'Thumbs' type program), changing the extension isn't internally changing the file to make the graphic readable by their embroidery software. We often had questions such as "I've changed the file from .jpg to .gif but it won't open in my digitizer...I get an error that says 'the file is corrupt/damaged or file type is incompatible and cannot be opened.' "

So my question, Lea, is this: Does the action work automatically to open the graphic file then convert the info and save it to Tiff (or other) format or just change the extension of the filename? I know that PSP will rename files using a batch execution...and there is also a way to do batch conversions. I've done that...but it takes FOREVER to do more than a few at a time.

Also, since you are talking about "actions" I'm assuming that you are using PhotoShop, right?

Anyone out there tried the batch conversion in either PSP or PS? I'd really be interested in hearing your experiences, too.

ChynaRose
06-30-2003, 10:39 PM
Julie....Yes...what a dummyI am. I wrote this on the fly before I flew out of here tonight....I'm referring to using Photoshop. I actually saved the action to perform the job, but when I activate it...I don't see anything happening. But when I look at the file it says the action is in progress...I don't get it. They are all still jpegs. However...I have noticed that when I bring up just one jpeg & than "save as" a tif, it has the name. jpeg. tiff. What goes on there I am not sure. I am very unfamiliar with anything but PS. I dont' know why it would say there is a corruption in another program. Maybe if it was a psd conversion?

Of course I could look into one of 10 books on Photoshop that I have and actually read how to do that but somehow...I am too busy playing with manips...I would rather play until I figure it out than read how...go figure.

Let's just hope that one of those wonderfully techy people in here read this & help us out.

This is the kind of stuff we need to discuss in here...except we may need to pull some people over from digital manips. I try to stay in The Darkroom, but I am drawn to the digital manips too.

jsr88
06-30-2003, 11:09 PM
Lea, I think your batch action might be giving you the same or a similar problem to that of my students. Your files are being *renamed* (as I believe the addition of the (dot).jpg along with the (dot).tif indicate) instead of actually being saved (converted) to the tiff format.

I may have confused you with my bit about the "corrupted/damaged" files. Those were the errors that my fellow embroiderers were getting when they tried to open a file that had been renamed instead of converted.

This is an easy topic to become confused with and by. It took me a while to figure out what people who knew what they were talking about, were trying to TELL ME!

By "conversion" I mean doing a "Save AS" and changing the type of file at that point. I think you are the smart one here. You *already* save your stuff as TIFF format...and therefore you don't need to do any of this on a grand scale.

I'd hate to think of trying to go through my nearly 10,000 pictures taken between spring of last year to the current stuff in my camera and turning them all into TIFFs...ARRRGHhh.....no way. :D

ChynaRose
06-30-2003, 11:36 PM
Thanks Julie!

I still would like to go back on my cds & pull up some old stuff that I saved as jpegs & convert them....but one at a time?...ugh.

I am going to try & actually read up on this...tomorrow.....huh...thats what I always say!!!