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surreal
05-26-2003, 12:32 PM
Hi All,

I propose that if you want criticism, both negative and positive, that you should ask for it on your posts.

I further propose that all criticisms should be constructive, with concern for the feelings of those whose work is being criticized.

Everyone is sensitive, IMHO, even if folk present themselves as being very cool and tough.

artistatheart
05-26-2003, 12:35 PM
i think your right, 100% sureal

Gar
05-26-2003, 12:39 PM
I thought this was already a given Nina. I don't think anyone around here is a big fan of "Deconstructive" criticism.

Posting something like, "Oh this work is crap" is just as, if not more useless, than posting the ol' "Oh i love the colors".:D

somerset
05-26-2003, 12:42 PM
I often say 'all input welcomed'. Will change to 'all critiques invited'.

surreal
05-26-2003, 12:44 PM
somerset,

Perhaps you should also say that positive and negative criticism is requested.

But, do whatever you like.
I got your drift.
:)

sue ellen
05-26-2003, 12:51 PM
Sensitivity has nothing to do with it.....Honesty and integrity do. I don’t know about you ~ but i can’t crawl into the heads of everyone I critique to know if i am hurting their feelings.

What I do know, is that I can comment on what i am feeling about their work and i can base it on my experience and knowledge and my likes and dislikes. When you post a piece or show a piece you are, of course, interested in what others think..but if you are so caught up in someone hurting your feelings then maybe you should think twice about showing it in the first place.

Of course this brings up the question...do you create for yourself..or for approval from others?

marc
05-26-2003, 12:54 PM
Gar,

I often post that I love the colours. I'm nuts about colours, and when I see special combinations that really hit me I say so. I don't think that is useless at all. In fact, I strive very hard to create colour combinations in my picture that feel beautiful. If I show that picture to someone and they say 'I love the colours', then that's damn good criticism to me.

surreal
05-26-2003, 12:57 PM
Hi SueEllen,

I disagree with your words:
Sensitivity has nothing to do with it.....Honesty and integrity do. I don’t know about you ~ but i can’t crawl into the heads of everyone I critique to know if i am hurting their feelings

I think sensitivity to the feelings of the artist's is an integral part of giving constructive criticism.

Honesty and integrity are of course very important, but the presentation of one's honest opinions is of great importance as well.

:)

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 12:59 PM
Gar, you just said, "Posting something like, 'Oh this work is crap' is just as, if not more useless, than posting the ol' 'Oh i love the colors'."

Interesting.

Gar, you've also said, "get over yourself." You later defended that comment as being "honest."

Gar, you've also said, "it's lame" You later defended that comment as being "honest" as well.

Gar, you've also said, "yer "genius" ideas" [in a critical context]. You also defended this comment as being "honest."

Yet, above, you say that a similar type of comment is "useless."

Or perhaps you feel that there is a fundamental difference between your example of a "useless" comment, namely "this work is crap," and your actual comment that "it's lame."

Gar
05-26-2003, 12:59 PM
Who here doesn't like "colors" marc?
But how many times can one read "Oh i just love the colors" before it's starts to mean nothing. There are others way to describe your admiration for one's werk, palette, use of contrast, etc. etc.

I dunno...

"Everybody should do what they want." J. Pollock

artistatheart
05-26-2003, 01:02 PM
if you ask for a critic than your open for all kinds of coments BUT IF YOU DONT, THAN people should keep there coments to themselves. In here it is hard to take being critized, because you dont know if anyone has enough back ground in the area they are critizing. And i am very sensitive to coments from others i dont know many artist that arnt. i payed my dues in art schools and from qualifid teachers. now i just do what i like and hope it pleases some people. dont critize if you arnt ask to !!!!

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 01:07 PM
Marc,

You took the words right out of my mouth re: comments about color. I pay a LOT of attention to whether or not any comments come in about color. If someone speaks about tone or color or palette in relation to a painting of mine, I highly value that comment. I'm glad to know if my paintings touch someone's heart through the use of color, and I'm glad to know if some work is needed with the colors. That includes your comments to me on "Adrift" suggesting that perhaps it was not yet finished, needed something more, etc. I really valued your input there, and related that input to color.

I dream in color when I sleep -- I daydream in color when I'm awake. And I attempt to express myself in color, or even the absence thereof at times, or in areas. Color is the essence of my thoughts; it feels to me like color is generated in the very core of my being.

marc
05-26-2003, 01:08 PM
Gar,

There is a difference between 'liking' colours (why did you put the word in quotation?) and putting great emotional importance into them. Colours alone can be the piece, without form (or close). Likewise, form alone can be the piece, without colours. This happens all the time.

When people say they love the colours I have to trust that they are being truthful. Maybe they just love the colours of a whole lot of works, whereas you just hate colours and want them off the surface of this earth. ;) As you get to see how people critique various pieces you put it into context, and if they show their own work, you can add that to the context. Just because you feel that certain phrases have become inflated or cliché in general, doesn't mean they have for the person posting them. If I say I love the colours of a pic you can bite your nose I mean it.

sue ellen
05-26-2003, 01:09 PM
oh but surreal....to be honest is everything. If you have to think about how you are going to be honest...are you really being honest?

When someone posts a reply like “this work is crap” it says more about the poster than the work getting the critique.

Gar
05-26-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Adrienne
Gar, you just said, "Posting something like, 'Oh this work is crap' is just as, if not more useless, than posting the ol' 'Oh i love the colors'."

Interesting.

Gar, you've also said, "get over yourself." You later defended that comment as being "honest."

Gar, you've also said, "it's lame" You later defended that comment as being "honest" as well.

Gar, you've also said, "yer "genius" ideas" [in a critical context]. You also defended this comment as being "honest."

Yet, above, you say that a similar type of comment is "useless."

Or perhaps you feel that there is a fundamental difference between your example of a "useless" comment, namely "this work is crap," and your actual comment that "it's lame."


Adrienne,

Oh how i love the "quotation" game.

Your quoting me from a thread from last week. If your trying to research my body of posts to point out that i often contradict myself.. have at it. I'm sure you'll soon find that, i do.
I'm not perfect. Sometimes i get in a bad mood and say things that normally wouldn't - just like every other human does. Contradiction isn't a dirty word. As we grow and learn, it does happen. I just try to say what i mean.

There's no shame in my game.

Love - Gar bailey

timelady
05-26-2003, 01:12 PM
If you want structured critiques there is a forum for them. In fact, there is a forum for the more "just sharing" type of critiques too! We all share our work and simply posting it is opening the way for any comments, good or bad. That is the nature of both the internet and being an artist. This topic has come up many times in several forums and is why multiple critique forums were created for those wanting different types of responses to their work.

Go visit a new forum today! :) (not to imply you can't still be here too!)

Tina.

marc
05-26-2003, 01:13 PM
This thread is moving so fast I can't keep up with it!

Adrienne, I do love colours ;) and I'm glad if I am able to give you any kind of useful comments.

artistatheart, I agree. Sometimes people just want to share their works without having it criticized in any way. Sharing one's work is like baring one's soul. This is why I am only showing very few things that I do to the public.

Gar
05-26-2003, 01:14 PM
MIndless chit chat is important too.

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 01:22 PM
Marc,

You've given me a great deal of interesting feedback and I appreciated every bit of it. You liked a version of a painting that I didn't, and cared enough to say why, and engage the point several times. That level of involvement from you directly resulted in another painting that I'm still working on. Your comments and positive feedback on this board have been so helpful and welcome to me that, frell, I even rented The Matrix, d***it!!! :D :D :D

Kalibabe
05-26-2003, 01:22 PM
I swore to myself I wouldn't get involved in this kind of thing, but, hey.....

Colour to me is immensely important. I don't have lots of terminology associated to it that might be acceptable to some people.

I DO however have very strong feelings about it. THAT to me is what is important.

I do a LOT of energy work. To me, energies are expressed in colour and the form of that colour.

I might comment that the colours to me are stunning and invoke a reaction because they do. The bring to mind the energies associated with those colours.

If you ahve never experiences bioenergies then, you will probably not understand a word of this, BUT, hey, each to their own.

I don't think anybody should be put down for what they say unless it's downright nasty.

Some people don't have the vocabulary or the skills of construction of sentences to express themselves as eloquently as others. That does not mean that their words are any less important or, have any less meaning.

To me, personally, colour in a painting is possibly the primary thing i notice as to me, personally, it shows the energies that went into painting it, and the energies that person wanted to express.

As far as politeness and how people should express themselves go, there is no excuse AT ALL for putting people down. However educated or not you are....... it's just putting people down at the end of the day.:mad:

somerset
05-26-2003, 01:29 PM
My final thoughts on this I hope. It would seem that we have many different reasons for posting. My primary reason for posting is to get feedback. Only once have I posted something to say 'hey take a look it this'. It was a little fun thing I did and I even said as much with my post. But it was the most positively received thing I have ever done here by any measure.
Comments/hits ratio was way high and I received critiques from ZOTMA, jnet11 and Aurora Pope. Go figure. I guess that is another reason why we need other pairs of trusted eyes. We are probably too close to our work to see it properly.

Who knows more about art? ZOT, jnet11, Aurora or me? No contest.

mame
05-26-2003, 01:36 PM
hey, go for it, kali.

My point was that "the spirit" of this forum was that it all counts (and if I might interject here in defense of surreal - I respect and admire the person surreal and the artist surreal. Her participation is HER personality and it is as valid and viable as any other. I do miss her surreal landscapes, though :)).

There is no "right" or wrong behavior or response to artworks or comments or discussions. here (other than those rules and regulations and protocol dictated by the owner of this site). At least that was how it began.

Part of the fun is the variety of eccentricity in this particular forum.

My point is pat on the head if ya want. Say "I love it" if ya want, but DON'T become a mob and argue AGAINST my critical assessment of a work if it's asked for.

Hey, we all like art best that looks most like our own. There are no objective opinions. It's part of the game and the gamble.

I of course would prefer more sensory grounded comments than "I love the color". Well, why........? Can ya, uh, chunk it down a bit?

Why am I so blasted talky today? Just ignore me.

reynolds
05-26-2003, 01:50 PM
MAME HAS SPOKEN...this issue is up again in this forum...it has been discussed, ranted about, and grumbled over, even resulting in a different forum for serious critiquing which has never been as busy as the other forums...we all do art to feed different parts of us...i almost always comment from a feeling place...it is the therapist in me and my intuition is pretty sharp around art and what i see in it...but i do not always write what i feel as it would be inappropriate to ask about depression on a board such as this.
so rant on but nothing said including what i just said...will be a new argument as we have been here before and will be again.

mame
05-26-2003, 01:56 PM
Okay, reynolds. I'll shut up. Between paintings, ya know how it is.....

I love Oscar Wilde. Why, you ask? Well, just because.....LOL

all in good fun.:D

Gar
05-26-2003, 01:59 PM
Tis the squabbling and the scurrying that makes us stronger. The to and fro. The rabbit hole.
When wrong is right and right is wrong.. turn left without using your blinker.

Gar
05-26-2003, 02:01 PM
Mame,

"The vilest deeds like poison-weeds
Bloom well in prison-air:
It is only what is good in Man
That wastes and withers there:
Pale Anguish keeps the heavy gate
And the Warder is Despair."

-Oscar Wilde

LUV - GAR

Gareth
05-26-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by mame

I love Oscar Wilde. Why, you ask? Well, just because.....LOL



I wish I'd said that... but I will.

marc
05-26-2003, 02:19 PM
Adrienne - Woah, you rented The Matrix? I'm impressed :D - do I dare to ask if you saw something good in it?

I'm looking forward to seeing that other painting!

Kalibabe - I agree with all you said (although I know not of biorhythms :D)

somerset - could you point me to the picture you talked about? Would love to see it.

timelady - I've peeked in the critique forum a couple of times.. and I may be very wrong, but my impression was that many of the people who critique there just do it for the sake of critiquing.. and they also seem very put up on the 'rules' of art. Rules of composition, rules of colour, rules of what underwear to wear. Maybe I just looked at the wrong examples though, but it did turn me away a bit..

somerset
05-26-2003, 02:25 PM
Marc, here's the link.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96858

Luzie
05-26-2003, 02:43 PM
Of course this brings up the question...do you create for yourself..or for approval from others?

Exactly!

If you want no critique, shouldn't you post in the gallery (I thought that's what that place was for)? It's a safe place.

Critique doesn't mean bashing, I seroiusly doubt somebody would call another persons work "crap" as we all know how personal a painting is to the painter.

Constructive critique offers a possible solution it does not just take the painting apart.

judithj
05-26-2003, 03:08 PM
You know criticism is like a knife - in the hands of a surgeon it can be used to save a life; in the hands of a butcher it can be used to kill.

Honesty - 'brutal honesty'.... Yikes - it is the stuff we say to our loved ones at our lowest moments and regret in retrospect forever.

The intent of behind criticism does not always define it's result. That is because sometimes our best intentions are our biggest distortions.

Being positive is a safe way to encourage - to bring out - to engage.

Other than that - I'm wondering if the best way to help with feedback is to provide a personal emphatic response...

To approach a work of art in terms of defining 'improvement' - I fall all over myself with this. If the intention is not defined by the artist how can I tell them how to improve with a concept of 'good art' in my head that may or may not be relevant to this particular artist?

Ida no...

-Judith

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 03:32 PM
Marc: "Adrienne - Woah, you rented The Matrix? I'm impressed - do I dare to ask if you saw something good in it?"

LOL - I haven't seen anything in it yet. Haven't popped it in the player just yet. I must be waiting for the proverbial "right moment" ;) I'll e-mail you what I think though, if you want.

Marc again: "I've peeked in the critique forum a couple of times.. and I may be very wrong, but my impression was that many of the people who critique there just do it for the sake of critiquing.. and they also seem very put up on the 'rules' of art.

I noticed two things when I tiptoed through there. One was exactly what you noticed -- that some individuals seemed to rely on holding up a set of rules next to an image in order to not only determine and guide their comments, but in order to decide whether or not they were even allowed to like it. I understand and support that type of comment, but usually prefer a different style in my own evaluations and comments.

For me, knowing some of the "rules" works well as an interesting support structure, but not as actual "rules." And when I paint, I first just go about painting, and "rules" seem to come along as needed, and as my abilities may allow, to help me when I falter. So, for me, rules are a secondary (or a tenthiary) part of my conscious thought process.

It was the same way when I was a kid. I would get 100% on virtually every spelling test, through every grade. But I failed miserably at the tests of the rules they were constantly trying to teach us to rely on when we spelled. I'm sure that they were very valuable to some, but for me, it worked better to just "know" the word (from my voracious reading) instead of imposing an entire conscious train of thought that one had to navigate in order to spell the word. It was very frustrating for both me and the teachers, but I just couldn't (and wouldn't) spell by the rules when I had a method that worked MUCH better for me.

Another thing that I've seen in the art world is that while the rules help guide and produce some very compelling art, they can also tie some of us up in knots and stifle our thought processes and our results. So, like anything else, I think we each need to find the best way to either incorporate or displace the "rules" and adjust that judgment as time goes by, and as our needs and abilities change.

Let's see, I said I noticed two things.......

Oh, the second thing I noticed was that on one of the two or three threads I looked at in the heavy critique forum, the one that is for really serious comments, every single comment on the 2 or 3 page thread was along the lines of, "love that angle" and "very nice palette and use of negative space" and "oh yeah, that is very compelling." [paraphrasing]

I thought that these were interesting and valuable comments, and I was pleased to see that the posters weren't ashamed to express them.

marc
05-26-2003, 06:56 PM
Judith - I like your metaphor of criticism being a knife. I also think that the only truly valid critique is the one that encourages the reciepient to grow. Critique that is received in the light of being destructive - even if not intended as such - is not good critique. This may take a lot of flack from people following this discussion, but think about it. If the critic's intention was for the receipient to improve and grow, any other result would be a failure, no matter who was to 'blame'. If the critic did not intent for something positive to happen, the critic was likely negative in spirit before it left the critic's mind.

Adrienne - go ahead, watch it. ;) I just saw it again tonight to prepare myself for the sequel, and although it's not the same on a small screen, the story and ideas still hold. You just don't experience it as much with your body, so you don't submerge and become one with it to the same extent. I thought you didn't like to email? :confused:

I've had the same funny thing with language (not quite in English because I was taught at a later age). Not so keen on the rules, but I know it's right when I see it written. Also leaves more time for inventing new words and phrases.

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 08:18 PM
Marc: "I thought you didn't like to email?"

I'm not good at it, that's for sure.

Marc, "Also leaves more time for inventing new words and phrases."

LOL -- a worthwhile endeavor, yes!!!

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 08:21 PM
Judith,

Well said, and thank you for posting your thoughts on this. I often falter when commenting on people's work. I've printed out your post and taped it on this monitor so I can come back to your advice and ground myself when I'm in trouble on a comment.

surreal
05-26-2003, 08:33 PM
Judith,

I think my choice of term, "brutal honesty" is incorrect. What I am referring to is a completely honest analysis of a work of art.

Whenever I have given an honest analysis of a work of art, it is in a discussion of what works well in the piece and what doesn't, followed by discussing how to improve the work of art.
I have done this perhaps 3 or 4 times on WC.

In another e-group, I give completely honest critiques that are requested by the artist, in my role as being moderator.

A complete critique is often extremely time-consuming.

Off the topic:
One of the things I love most about WC, is the opportunity to have a great deal of visual stimulation on a daily basis. I have also been enjoying the friendships I have made on this forum.
:)

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 08:57 PM
Surreal, is the group you moderate a closed group, or is it open membership like Wet Canvas?

surreal
05-26-2003, 09:25 PM
Hi Adrienne,
I miscommunicated earlier.
In the group I was discussing, I only act as co-moderator for the critique requests. That is my only role, other than being a participant.
I will contact you about it tonight.
:)

beatle_john
05-26-2003, 10:36 PM
I propose that if you want criticism, both negative and positive, that you should ask for it on your posts.

The Wetcanvas forum system is designed to post on anyone's work, I never read anywhere that I should post comments like "I like the colors", etc... This means I'm free to comment in both positive and negative ways, to critique if I want to...

It could be fair to someone who doesn't want to receive negative comments to explain it at the begin...
Let's go far away, everyone is free to ask for the kind of comments that's looking for when posting a thread...

Instead of asking for criticism, wich would force as an initial point not to critique the work unless you're asked for, the system should be asking NOT to citique if You don't want criticism, otherwise the thread is open to any kind of comments, like from "I like the colors" to "This work is crap"...

I think it would be a step backwards to force everyone (or stablish as a rule) commenting on a certain direction, like not critiques, as default...

Regards...

rapolina
05-27-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by surreal
if you want criticism, both negative and positive, that you should ask for it on your posts.

i think that just posting a work implies we're waiting for a feedback, both positive and negative.
the reason why, i suppose, most comments are positive is that the negative critique should just be "i don't like it, it's not my way", but we cannot suggest anything... at least, it's this way for me.

but if i'm told how to improve, i'm glad, and treasurize it!

ciao, rapolina.

diphascon
05-27-2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by somerset
It would seem that we have many different reasons for posting.

[/stumbling in here ...]

Different reasons, yes. But one reason to post artwork here imho is that the poster wants to post artwork here. - It's implied in the concept of "art" imnsho that it's there to be shown to a public, and WC is a special kind of public. Good so! The other side is that as soon as an artist gives a work to the public, it ceases to be exclusively "her/his", and there is no proper way to influence the public to do this or that to the artwork or make them stop doing ... (it would certainly be good to be a warm person, but occasionally I love my emotional phlegma).

cheers - martin

(p.s. I know well I'm guilty of not posting much work here, but I don't have much). :(

timelady
05-27-2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by marc
timelady - I've peeked in the critique forum a couple of times.. and I may be very wrong, but my impression was that many of the people who critique there just do it for the sake of critiquing.. and they also seem very put up on the 'rules' of art. Rules of composition, rules of colour, rules of what underwear to wear. Maybe I just looked at the wrong examples though, but it did turn me away a bit..

Yes, that's why it's a critique forum. (???) The 'rules' are very important to any kind of artwork and what a critique is based on. I rarely critique work here because the fact that I find the 'rules' important isn't always thought highly of. I sometimes don't give critiques, even when asked, because I realise the person may be sensitive to my more blunt approach. But isn't that what this discussion is about? People being hurt by critiques? Critiques should always be constructive (ie. postive, negative and guidance), one part of that is not useful to improve your work. If I point out aspects of composition, draftsmanship or colour theory to someone with reference to their work it's not an insult. I'd like to think they'll perhaps want to look into it, I mention it because I think they're going somewhere and need a little guidance. I certainly do when someone points it out to me. None of us are experts, we're all at a stage of learning. Any advice can be right or wrong and it's up to the artist creating the work to sift through the comments and decide what to act on and what not to. I don't post here much because I find that thorough critiques are rarely given. When I do get savage criticism in real life it really burns... but usually I come back to it more objectively and find that ounce of truth (or pound of it!) and so it improves my work. One of the worst comments at an exhibition is someone just saying "nice painting". I want to say "why? what do you see? what do you feel? does it remind you of something? do you like the colour or the brushstrokes or the balance? more info please...."

So I just post to share ideas and new work. But EVERY SINGLE IMAGE I POST is then open to criticism or back-patting. I can't stop it, that's the nature of the internet and of being an artist. I was going to post this yesterday and stopped myself so I wouldn't hurt any feelings. Some members want us to just accept that they may be painting because it's just emotional or cathartic or whatever. Then some members should also accept those of us who are not painting for those reasons. The openness and acceptance has to go *all ways* between all members of different abilities and beliefs. The best thing about the internet is that you don't have to read all the posts or even post yourself.

This isn't the debates forum, so that's all I'm going to say. I'm just very happy this forum is here for those of us whose work isn't traditional realism.

Tina.

marc
05-27-2003, 01:15 PM
timelady,

What I was trying to say was that critiquing for the sake of critiquing is useless, moot, hollow. One should only critique something if one finds that one truly has something to contribute, or feel enticed to express something in return for seeing the picture or whatever it is one is commenting upon. As I said, I may very well be wrong about the critique forum as I only looked a couple of times, but my impression was that people seemed to critique to hear themselves sound clever rather than to understand the intention of the artist and reply with their own perception.

A critique should not be based on rules. Who makes up the rules? The rules can be helpful guides, but they're not an answer in themselves. If art could be summed up to a set of rules it would be mathematics. Learning technical concepts ('rules') is not the same as being limited by them, which I feel a lot of compulsive critics are.

It was not a comment on whether critiques should or should not be hard or blunt. It was a matter of the intentions of the critic. The world is frought with critics who only critique to serve themselves, which in my opinion has nothing to do with good critique.

timelady
05-27-2003, 03:18 PM
Guess we'll just have to disagree on some points. The rules have come about over long long periods of time and are probably still being developed, as with any science. We have the benefit of learning from what the ancients and old masters discovered about how human beings perceive visual images. I love mathematics, and am studying for a physics degree. I hope to option a chemistry class to learn more about conservation of artwork, as well as a biochemistry class about the senses. Beauty is science. Colours are chemistry. Sunsets are physics.

I agree you shouldn't be limited by rules. Rules should not limit - they should enhance. (Rules is a bad word for them anyway.) Breaking the rules after knowing them allows an artist to provoke different effects from their audience.

Tina.

kymbo
05-27-2003, 05:46 PM
Oh sureal
This is a fine little can of worms and it shows even in these posts, that people can be offended even when you are not intending to be offensive.
there are two issue that I see

1 Artist are such sensitive little soles and being that we take our work to be a lasting legacy(even if it is only to our families) we need to know what people feel and see in our work.

2 The English language is so easy to misinterpret while sitting at a computer screen talking to people. You don't really know what they think they are being: eg funny, smart or obnoxious.

The important thing is that you have been inspired. That you have created and that you have completed.

lastly in my humble opinion. We should try not to be too sensitive, because over sensitive people are usually very insensitive to others

artistatheart
05-27-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by rapolina


i think that just posting a work implies we're waiting for a feedback, both positive and negative.
the reason why, i suppose, most comments are positive is that the negative critique should just be "i don't like it, it's not my way", but we cannot suggest anything... at least, it's this way for me.

but if i'm told how to improve, i'm glad, and treasurize it!

ciao, rapolina. no you post to show not to critic that WHY YOU HAVE A CRITIC FORUM

beatle_john
05-27-2003, 10:30 PM
no you post to show not to critic that WHY YOU HAVE A CRITIC FORUM

If that was true forum's moderators would call the attention of everyone who critique without being asked for, but they don't, so, I don't think what You're saying it's true at all...

Regards...

artistatheart
05-28-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by beatle_john


If that was true forum's moderators would call the attention of everyone who critique without being asked for, but they don't, so, I don't think what You're saying it's true at all...

Regards... ok your right i am wrong. is it that cut and dry art is subject. so i am nonconfrontation , i like it that way , my only real thought here is noboby in here has the right to critize anything anyone does and that is cut and dry so last coment on the subject. my one and only stand on this subject
and thank you for the info. didnt know we could do that now i can let them know sence some people dont read the bottom of my postings. but you are right in one thing i let myself open by comenting in the first place and i dont have anymore right to critizes here either.

Luzie
05-28-2003, 10:20 AM
Actually the question has come up before and a moderator stepped in (don't remember which forum) and said if you don't want critique you should post in the "gallery" or at least state that in your post. Other than that your out in the open:)

Moderators, where are you?

Luzie
05-28-2003, 02:17 PM
This is what you'll find at the entrance to the gallery:


The WC! Gallery
Looking for a place to post your works for show to fellow artists, without soliciting a heavy critique? Are you just learning, and need a kinder, gentler place to hang out? Come on in!

artistatheart
05-28-2003, 02:32 PM
its odvious i am way off base acording to most of you sorry. i am not a beginer i am a profestional with many years of schooling and criticing i have had enough!!!!! you people think its is a good thing to net pick peoples work to death I DONT!!!! SO GO ON DOING THE DAMEGE. but you wont be doing it to me anymore because i wont be puting anymore work on here anywhere. i did love sharing my work with some of you. i will still be lurking around in here once in awhile maybe giving someone a boost to there ego or just a coment in a debate. as far as seeing my work no way will i have it subjected to this anymore not that its been a bad experance at all for the most part. i just dont need your input thanks again.

Stefan
05-28-2003, 03:51 PM
yikes

Gar
05-28-2003, 03:54 PM
Yikes squared.

"Artistatheart" - Up the dosage.

judithj
05-28-2003, 05:43 PM
Hey everyone

I am really enjoying this thread.


Hey Marc!
I'm glad you liked the knife metaphor. Helping a person along their artistic path is is a big and important job. I find that I am most comfortable asking questions towards this end. It is so much easier to do it in person since you have a better sense of the person, where they are at and what they may need.


Hi Adrienne
It really was my pleasure to post. I stumble all over myself when commenting on people's work too. I'm glad you think my comments will help.


Surreal, you said:
"I think my choice of term, "brutal honesty" is incorrect. What I am referring to is a completely honest analysis of a work of art. "

Words are funny - not so easy sometimes.

Actually, truth be known, personally I find the intention to make 'good' art or 'great' art to be a huge creative stifler. I guess that is why I really balk at telling someone that this is good or that is not...

It is so easy to be dismissive with a negative critical response to a WIP - I do not mean with regards to critiquing other people - I mean with regards to my own process. My inner critic can be very nasty. I honestly do not want to share that with anyone. ;)

When I am able to shift to 'is this fun?' instead of 'is this good?' I find that my creative process blossoms. It is safe.

I guess that it is this sense of fun and safety that I feel is important to cultivate within the context of constructive feedback.

That's just me ;)

Warmest Regards, Judith

judithj
05-28-2003, 05:45 PM
Oops - I was back on page 3....

Luzie
05-28-2003, 06:45 PM
its odvious i am way off base acording to most of you sorry. i am not a beginer i am a profestional with many years of schooling and criticing i have had enough!!!!! you people think its is a good thing to net pick peoples work to death I DONT!!!! SO GO ON DOING THE DAMEGE.

:confused: Did I miss a page?

Adrienne
05-28-2003, 06:49 PM
Judith says, " It is so easy to be dismissive with a negative critical response to a WIP - I do not mean with regards to critiquing other people - I mean with regards to my own process. My inner critic can be very nasty. I honestly do not want to share that with anyone.

When I am able to shift to 'is this fun?' instead of 'is this good?' I find that my creative process blossoms. It is safe.

I guess that it is this sense of fun and safety that I feel is important to cultivate within the context of constructive feedback."

My approach is the fun approach too, though my inner critic gets FAR too much time. Overall, though, my goal is simply to enjoy the process. I don't really feel like I have to wonder if I will get lazy and not try my best because my nature is to try to do my best... so the goal is to just have fun and everything else will have to take care of itself!!! :D :D :D

You know, when folks talk about positive and negative feedback, I'm never quite sure what they're talking about. I've gotten a number of comments that made suggestions for improvement, or that disagreed with me on which version of a WIP they liked, etc. All of those comments were very positive to me because they were all made so tactfully and with such kindness and care for my feelings.

Each person who has criticized my work has been frank, open and honest in a kind way, and I have loved that shared experience. Honesty doesn't have to be cruel -- the great artists and individuals on Wet Canvas who have criticized my work have all proven that to me, and brought gladness to my heart, while helping me learn and improve.

Adrienne
05-28-2003, 06:54 PM
Artistatheart says, " i wont be puting anymore work on here anywhere."

I just checked out your work Artistatheart. I really enjoyed seeing it and I think you are very good. I'm a mountain gal myself, and I thought your wildlife portrayals were very compelling and beautiful.

I'm sorry that your experience on this thread has been so bad that you are thinking of withdrawing on other areas of Wet Canvas. I hope you will reconsider as you are a valuable part of the Wet Canvas family.

Take care Artistatheart. I will continue to hope to see your work here in the future.

artistatheart
05-28-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Gar
Yikes squared.

"Artistatheart" - Up the dosage. maybe you should get to know a person before you make a comment like that. you never know what that comment could do

surreal
05-28-2003, 08:11 PM
Hi artistatheart,

I respect your views completely, about criticism of your artwork.

Everyone is entitled to her/his viewpoint.

Unfortunately, everyone isn't very sensitive and some folk are prone to ridicule people who have differing viewpoints than they themselves have.

I hope you won't let a couple of insensitive comments affect your posting on WC in the future.

:)

artistatheart
05-28-2003, 08:46 PM
surreal i wanted to tell you before you left the chat thanks for your wonderfull support. and dont worry i will get over it i just have to consider the sorce

CarlyHardy
05-28-2003, 10:12 PM
This thread has been reported to a moderator.

I do drop into the forum more often than most of you think. But I don't comment often simply because I don't have the time. Keeping up with multiple forums and other duties keep me from posting as much as I'd like. Thanks Tina for your comments to this thread. She said what I would have said...but better!

We do have other forums for critique, but relationships are formed within individual forums and we want comments from those who know us and know our works. One reason the critiques in the more formal critique area is more 'rule' based is because the person critiquing has nothing to go on but the image on the screen most of the time.

Yes, there are a lot of "nice painting", "love the color", and other comments made which don't really offer more than a candid response to the artwork, but everyone isn't always at a level with their own knowledge and experience to give more than that first impression. I never had college professors who tore into my early attempts at art, nor have I had many who would give me an 'honest' assessment of my abilities as I moved forward with my painting. Finding a good 'critiquer' is just as difficult as finding my own way thru the years!

Over the past seven years, I attended a critique group that met and painted together and had a retired art professor critique paintings at the end of each session. I learned more about art principles and styles of painting and an appreciation for many types of art during that time. He often simply said..."Problem-that blue is stealing the show - decide what is more important, that blue or the rest of the painting". If you ask for more than that...he'd say, decide, paint, and then we'll see." He didn't try to handfeed us the solutions to the problems...he told us that wasn't his job! He allowed the artist to made a decision...sometimes I didn't want to do that! If I said, can I do this..or that...he would say, that's a possibility. LOL

He could be very blunt at times, but he didn't offend us.
He could be very gentle at times, but he didn't treat us as children.
He made terribly bad jokes, but we laughed anyway.
I respected him. He had the knowledge and experience on which to base his assessments.

When you find someone who can see the possibilities in your work instead of all the problems, you'll find someone you can trust also. Sharing our paintings is always a test...the question is not, are they ready...the question is, are we ready to accept the response that someone will give? The internet doesn't allow for sensitivity...words are just black on white...but its still possible for us to be civil and courteous to one another.

carly

cagathoc
05-29-2003, 12:06 PM
Brilliant reply, Carly. :) Bravo. Sensitive and to the point.

DanaT
05-29-2003, 02:25 PM
I just started coming here and I'll admit, I sometimes post a "That's beautiful" comment - but its for my own benefit; not for the person who posted the artwork. Why? Well I'm learning to appreciate abstract work, its helpful for me to check in occasionally all the threads in abstract that I posted in and gauge my reaction with others. I know I could just subscribe to the threads but my opinion is changing so much, that I might not remember my original impressions. So I post because its the easiest way for me to keep track of my evolving opinion on abstracts.

I don't post critiques generally except in areas I know something about - like composition - and even that's not a full blown critique. Right now I don't spend too much time with stuff I don't like - purely selfish reasons I admit but there it is. :rolleyes:

judithj
05-30-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Adrienne



You know, when folks talk about positive and negative feedback, I'm never quite sure what they're talking about. I've gotten a number of comments that made suggestions for improvement, or that disagreed with me on which version of a WIP they liked, etc. All of those comments were very positive to me because they were all made so tactfully and with such kindness and care for my feelings.

Each person who has criticized my work has been frank, open and honest in a kind way, and I have loved that shared experience. Honesty doesn't have to be cruel -- the great artists and individuals on Wet Canvas who have criticized my work have all proven that to me, and brought gladness to my heart, while helping me learn and improve. [/B]

Hi Adrienne!

I have seen a lot of very well thought out feedback too - and it is wonderful. I must admit that I have seen some thoughtlessness too. I remember reading somewhere that the level of criticism dictates the level of art - I cannot remember where I heard that - or how it went exactly.

I think that the thing I have difficulty with with regards to giving critical comments in this particular form is that I just do not have very much context - I do not know who I am talking to - in person you have so many clues about a person - here there is not so much to go on. I think that is why - for me, a personal response in the form of a conversation about a work of art is what I am most comfortable giving.

Have a great weekend!

-Judith

paintergirl
06-24-2003, 10:22 AM
Carly said it perfectly!
I lurk in abstracts alot, I appreciate the varied work and expression that I see here. I don't post critiques because this is not a genre I feel comfortable critiqueing , since I am newer to this area myself. I will enjoy the rhythm in a piece or might be intrigued by the texture or palette and will comment accordingly. But I have posted critiques in other forums where I have more knowledge.
I rarely post my images just for view anyhow ( usually a time thing- not enough of it ) so when I do, it's because I personally want to know what is attracting the viewer, or if someone can pinpoint what is feeling off. A good critique should contain strengths and weaknesses and would not hurt the poster if done with consideration.

Art is based on personal expression and preference, as are the majority of critiques.

RickS
06-26-2003, 05:47 AM
Wow! Interesting read... I'm new to WC, so don't have much to say at this point, but LUZIE, is that 'Tiny Head-Avatar' an example of your work? I JUST LOVE THE COLORS :) But seriously, I'd like to know.

Rick

amanda
06-26-2003, 09:54 AM
I agree with you on that point.

RickS
06-27-2003, 08:58 PM
Hey, Artistatheart,

Hang in there:) I'm going through one of those artistic crisis situations of my own--my last painting was a DUD---your stuff is good! I'm new here, but am scared to death to put up any of my own work at this time, because my own wife hates it:) I will probably need to even partake of some vino this evening.
But anyway, don't leave---or I'll just get more depressed, and have to whack off an ear or something.

Take care---Rick