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Stefan
05-23-2003, 03:35 PM
havent seen anything posted by any of them in awhile...

whats the deal?
the old skoolers leaving?

Gar
05-23-2003, 05:28 PM
I think alot of the "old timers" from round here have recently become disappointed in the direction of the board. To much fluff. To much posturing and agenda goin on. Mame's been posting in the debates a bit. Lori and Amy have been doing other things.

Stephan - Send me your email address. I'm at [email protected] -I've got a link for ya.

Toodles

Stefan
05-23-2003, 05:45 PM
hmm guess ill PM mame and see whats up on her end

I was just curious because I miss their work, and input of course.

Gar
05-23-2003, 05:52 PM
What am i? Chopped LIver?;)

Stefan
05-23-2003, 08:28 PM
haha
oh hell no!

i was just sayin I would pm mame to see what shes been up to and why I dont see anymore of her work on here.

Gar's the shizzi... email me.
i sent u my email addy after reading your first post.

mame
05-24-2003, 09:38 AM
Hello, my pet. Still keepin track of ya, lurkin a bit, tease the philosopher-king who lives upstairs a bit.
People come and go, change, evolve, claw their way out of the crawl space and move on. There's always a new one to take your place.

You might have to take over my "Ask auntie Mame for the art-lost and love-lorn column. The pay sucks but so does trying to make a living re-soling Berkenstocks.

I will certainly continue to drop in now and then when the bossy bug hits.

Take with a grain of salt and spot on American Idol

dragoni689
05-24-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Stefan

Gar's the shizzi...


Fo shizzle dizzle, he up in the hizzle.

El_Elegante
05-24-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Gar
I think alot of the "old timers" from round here have recently become disappointed in the direction of the board. To much fluff. To much posturing and agenda goin on. Mame's been posting in the debates a bit. Lori and Amy have been doing other things.


Yeah.. to much fluff.. and posturing.. the worste is when you have fluff combined with posturing.. or when other people posture fluff all over my agenda.. anywho.. this psuedo old timer still lingers and participates as far as the fluff and postering will allow.. undoubtedly it will irk me again and I'll dissapear for another few weeks.

surreal
05-24-2003, 03:15 PM
Do you care to define the "fluff and postering" that you are referring to?

No problem if you don't.

:)

timelady
05-24-2003, 03:23 PM
fluff is *kyoot*!
\ \ | | /
_ fluff! _
/ / | | \


Tina.

[i]sorry! couldn't resist! :D

surreal
05-24-2003, 03:46 PM
What is "fluff" is purely a matter of opinion, isn't it?


Cute, Tina.
:D

timelady
05-24-2003, 06:07 PM
Just doin' my bit to keep the forum full of fluff and posturing. ;) (and I think I've had toooo many cups o' coffee today)

I keep an eye out for mame and Amy too, but just figure they're busy with other things. Sometimes we all need a break, sometimes RL things actually take up time, and hopefully all the familiar names do actually get out there and sell and paint and have exhibitions and other good things that might keep them away from the computer. Or sometimes they just move house... or have vacations (huh?)...or spill water on their laptops and lose their connections (oh, no wait, that last one is just me). As mame said, the communities here are always flowing and changing. Is good.

Tina.

marc
05-24-2003, 08:26 PM
Why do I have a feeling that fluff = having a bit of fun, and posturing = disagreeing with people who complain about posturing? ;)

Stefan
05-25-2003, 01:56 AM
hello everybody

fluff is soup

mmk
05-25-2003, 02:23 AM
what = fluff and posturing

somerset
05-25-2003, 04:39 AM
Can't pass this one up. Fluff= some one like myself for example who posts a lot of things which in hindsight, I wish I hadn't. I will be the first to say that I am terribly erratic. Some things I am proud of but there are far too many things I have done have been outright hideous/ill-conceived. Some have been lacking 'artistic value'. But I daresay no one intentionally causes himself embarrassment. We have varying levels of skill and talent but I presume that everyone posts for similar reasons. To get that all-important feedback from people whose opinions you value. It is about learning & sharing what knowledge you have.

So, I guess until there are qualifiers for posting, the offending presence of fluff shall remain with us.

I will let some one else tackle 'posturing'. Or have I just provided an excellent example?

Adrienne
05-25-2003, 04:51 AM
Somerset says, "some one like myself for example who posts a lot of things which in hindsight, I wish I hadn't."

Somerset, I have enjoyed getting to know you through your work -- all of it. I hope you don't censor yourself more harshly because of this thread, to the point where you don't post something that you otherwise might have considered sharing with us. I want to see your work, and see your invisible face and soul through your work.

Keep 'em coming, Somerset. You and everyone else who has posted art here in the Abstract Forum. It fills and replenishes my spirit and I appreciate it all.

somerset
05-25-2003, 05:17 AM
Whew another late Owl. Thank you Adrienne, I doubt that I will be able to be, shall we say, more discreet in what I post. I really value that feedback I receive here and I need the input from other eyes I trust. Even if that input is deafening silence. That will make me go back & re-evaluate what I have done. Sometimes I ask myself 'Michael what were you thinking'. My last 2 threads fall into that category. Other times I say 'hmm I think this was good, sorry no one else who saw it thought so.' Occasionally, some one will take the time to explain exactly what it is that offends and I find that every bit as gratifying as kudos. I might agree, I might not but I'll learn something.

Stefan
05-25-2003, 10:15 AM
nah somerset you should post what you feel like posting...

I think the posturing refers to the comments that people arent truly wanting to post but are speaking in a more politically correct tone instead of saying whats heartfelt.

Kinda like Paula Abdule on American Idol...
:D


posturing = politicians

surreal
05-25-2003, 10:20 AM
Stefan,

It is a matter of opinion as to what is "fluff or soup" and what isn't.
I, for one, do not presume to have this all encompassing knowledge.
Also, I think that an attitude of self-righteousness might be at play here.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone.
I do not assume that all of the folk who posted here and no longer post here do so because of the "fluff" issue.
I could be wrong or right about the above.
:)

mmk~
I don't understand.
:confused:


:)

marc
05-25-2003, 10:32 AM
ROFL :D

This thread is probably a good example of what someone thinks is fluff and posturing ;)

All I'll say is that I appreciate that people are friendly and open minded. If that has anything to do with fluff and posturing then I say the more the better! Also, I just luuuuurrrrve fluffy wuffy bunnies http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-May-2003/21810-bunny.gif

surreal
05-25-2003, 11:01 AM
To El,

In response to your words below, I will no longer respond to your posts of artwork, since I don't want to mess with your "agenda."

Yeah.. to much fluff.. and posturing.. the worste is when you have fluff combined with posturing.. or when other people posture fluff all over my agenda..


I find your words above to be quite offensive.

El_Elegante
05-25-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by surreal
To El,

In response to your words below, I will no longer respond to your posts of artwork, since I don't want to mess with your "agenda."




I find your words above to be quite offensive.

Surreal.. I was partially joking.. but really. I have not had any problems with anyone in this forum that I can think of off hand. My comments and issues with WC, it's members, fluff or posturing have to do with debates forum.. and a number of things in the bussiness forum that sound more like ebay promos than objective art sales advice. I could throw in a dozen or so random WC members that I found offensive in other various ways.. I could go on but I'd rather not.. If anything, I've missed posting here where I gernerally like most of the people in this forum.

but I, and apparently quite a few others felt the need to take a leave of absense for a time.. or for good.. Really, a bit unfortunate, but nothing to worry about.

oh.. re an "agenda" I assure you I don't have one.. at least not on WC. I was being faceatious. or however you spell it.

Stefan
05-25-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by surreal
Stefan,

It is a matter of opinion as to what is "fluff or soup" and what isn't.


Well I think that goes without saying. The only things in this world that arent a matter of opinion are math and scientific laws, and even the latter were matters of opinion at one time.

Someone asked what fluff was, I was giving them my answer, in my opinion.

DanaT
05-25-2003, 05:16 PM
Oh dear! I just started checking this place out. I hope the lull is temporary.

paintfool
05-25-2003, 06:36 PM
Life is temporary Dana. (cheery thought eh? ;)) It's all good.

Adrienne
05-25-2003, 07:23 PM
El says, "If anything, I've missed posting here where I gernerally like most of the people in this forum."

El, nice to see you back again. I realized you were being somewhat facetious in your first post, partly because I was familiar with your personality from the McCarthy/Tate thread awhile back. I really enjoyed your contributions to that thread. Lately, I've missed both your artwork and your dry wit. :) I had to laugh when I read your comments about folks fluffing all over your agenda!!! :D

Gar
05-26-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Adrienne

Somerset, I have enjoyed getting to know you through your work -- all of it. I hope you don't censor yourself more harshly because of this thread, to the point where you don't post something that you otherwise might have considered sharing with us. I want to see your work, and see your invisible face and soul through your work.

Keep 'em coming, Somerset. You and everyone else who has posted art here in the Abstract Forum. It fills and replenishes my spirit and I appreciate it all. [/B]

Well somebody asked earlier:
That was a prime example of "fluff" and "posturing". And both, all in a single post.

Every post here need not be an uplifting, backpatting compliment. Nobody here is running for office that i know of.
See what i'm getting at here? It's like that PC, friendly, meaningless chit-chat that folks have in elevators around here sometimes.. This is ART we're talking about here, not oven mits or "the weather". I realize some folks take it more seriously than others, but i that's exactly the point. it's a 2 way street.

And i'm not just pickin on you Adrienne.. just trying to keep an honest open dialoge going here. (And sorry to say it, but your post really helped illustrate that point):angel:

Sincerely,

Gar Bailey

Luzie
05-26-2003, 01:30 AM
I guess I am rather new to the board but I have also noticed the absence of significant work, lately as from:
Cagathoc, Aurorapope, jnet11.
Activity is plenty on the abstract board but even though I'm going to stir more controversy as it is, I say the following:
To just push paint around without aim or purpose in a 10 minute session - is that abstract art? Non-objective or non-reprensentational, doesn't have to mean meaningless?
I didn't want to start the old debate "what makes art - art?".
I miss the "serious" work here as of lately
:(

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 05:31 AM
Gar, you seem to have expressed above that honesty is valuable to you. You also seemed to express that on an earlier thread, Marc's "Pulse."

Since you appear to want us to understand that you value honesty, having mentioned it twice recently that I know of, I would think you would value my comments to Somerset which were a flat-out honest expression of my thoughts. Nevertheless you called my dead-on honest comments "PC," "meaningless," and "posturing." Perhaps if you had said them, they would not have been an honest expression of your feelings, and would have constituted whatever it is that you feel is "PC posturing." But you weren't the one saying them.

I would think that if it is okay with you for you to be honest on these boards, as you have twice recently expressed as being important to you, then it would also be okay with you for me to be honest on these boards.

After all, in addition to your comments about how important honesty is to you, you mentioned that this is a two-way street. Two-way streets travel in at least two directions [opinions and/or perceptions] and can simultaneously handle hundreds, if not thousands, of cars [voices] of different makes and models [modes of thought and expression].

In summary, Gar, I feel that my voice and modes of expression are as important and valuable in this Universe, and on Wet Canvas, as yours are. My comment to Somerset that, "I have enjoyed getting to know you through your work" is just as valid as your comment on the "Pulse" thread that Marc should "get over [him]self" and your comment above pointing out that "Nobody here is running for office that i know of" and referencing my completely honest comments to Somerset as "meaningless chit-chat." and as "a prime example of 'fluff' and 'posturing'."

Gar, in the final analysis, we have both chosen a mode of expression that we each must feel is working for us in re: expressing what we want to express, in the way we want to express it. If you aren't fluffing and posturing, then neither am I. If I am fluffing and posturing, then so are you. Because we've both done the exact same thing: arranged some letters on a board called Wet Canvas, that combine to form words, that express what we wish to express on said board.

Gareth
05-26-2003, 07:26 AM
Sheeshkephuckingbab.

Stefan
05-26-2003, 11:23 AM
ROFL!

well said.

No but serious Luzie its ok that you said that... I feel the same which is why I asked about AmyH Lori and Mame.
They arent the only artists I admire on the site, but they were true, and I respected their work and their opinions.

They are three of the reasons I continued to come to WC... Among others... and when I posted work, I hoped they would comment. Because I knew the comments would be real and not some ego stroking fluff.

If you love everything and everyone, then it begins to mean nothing to someone when you say "oh I love it!".

More and more recently these forums are getting slammed with meaningless work. I see things on here that couldnt have taken more than 10 minutes, and I know time has nothing to do with quality, but I feel its safe to say that this isnt a quality piece either.
Now that alone is fine, post the piece and look for responses you can learn from. But they dont get responses they can learn from. They get a bunch of, "oh thats fantastic", "wow, I feel your emotion", **** like that.
It degrades art... an especially artists who are working and sweating to be good at the creation of art.

People dont respect abstract and its not hard to understand why when this is going on. The other day on another forum in WC! someone said "The good thing about art is, if it doesnt look like a bird, you can call it abstract." I found that to be disrespectful to the art form. Gee, lets all do our best to paint portraits, and if it doesnt work out, we can go to the 'basement' and post to them... Well surely get a pat on the back from them. They love EVERY piece of art.

Im rambling...
Anyway I think thats what Gar means by honesty.

surreal
05-26-2003, 11:39 AM
Stefan,
I will reply to some of what you say, cause I have to leave the house soon:

Alot of people need ego stroking.
In fact, everyone needs ego stroking.
There's nothing wrong with stroking someone's ego - in fact there is everything right about it.

You can't assume that you know the reasons behind what I or anyone else posts. :) You can't assume that what I or anyone else posts about another's work is fluff.

When I have been brutally honest here and presented constructive criticism to people who you respect highly, amongst the old timers, I was sorry I did. The folk I was brutally honest with (always in a very nice way), couldn't take it; they wanted ego stroking too.

Also, lots of folk who are wonderful at giving constructive criticism can't take it themselves.

We are all jello beneath our seemingly tough exteriors, IMHO.

Sometimes, friends of mine pm me and ask for honest criticism, in which case I honestly supply them with what I like about a painting and what I feel may stand to be improved, if I feel the painting needs improvement.

I could debate this matter ad nauseum with anyone.

If anyone wants a critique with both positive and negative criticism they could ask for it.

People can also post polls in which one receives a great deal of honesty regarding one's artwork. A poll, in which one remains anonymous, is a great way to get honest feedback.
I recently posted a poll asking for opinions regarding my trees and 45 people responded.
:D

Gar
05-26-2003, 12:12 PM
Thank you for illustrating my point better than i could have Stefan. That's about exactly what i was trying to get at.

mame
05-26-2003, 12:15 PM
Surreal

"When I have been brutally honest here and presented constructive criticism to people who you respect highly, amongst the old timers, I was sorry I did. The folk I was brutally honest with (always in a very nice way), couldn't take it; they wanted ego stroking too"

You really hit the nail on the head. The old "kill the messenger" syndrome. In my initial naivety/innocence I too thought people REALLY wanted what they were asking for - an honest (hopefully, fairly informed) opinion/reaction/perception of a work posted here.

I mean, why are you posting it on the world wide web if not prepared for a variety of receptions?

I learned that I inadvertently "hurt people's feelings". Certainly not my intention but I come from a different paradigm I guess. Art is not a hobby, not a mid-life crisis, not a way of getting through a divorce or therapy for schitzophrenia or a way to make a few bucks to supplement one's income. It is a way of being in the world and I take it very, very seriously.

I demand excellence in my own work. My own work started out as utter crap and drivel........I think it still is...but it's getting better. I mistakenly assumed that others frequenting this particular forum were looking for feedback on their own strivings but with a strong commitment to learning and getting better.

I mean really. Do you think you're an accomplished "artist" after 3 paintings and book on "the spirituality of color" and your work is beyond criticism? (keep your mouth shut about art is fun and everything and anything is art if you say it is, Kelly)

If ya do, you're living in a dream world. You're that poor fop on American Idol singing Madonna's "Like a Virgin".

surreal
05-26-2003, 12:16 PM
To Gar,

Can I assume that you always want both positive and negative criticism about the work you post?

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 12:25 PM
Yes Surreal; I'd like to confirm what you said. I had the same experience with the same old timers when posting kindly meant constructive criticism.

Incidentally Surreal, I've enjoyed your polls. I've noticed that you do get a LOT of people participating in those, as you mentioned. It's fun to participate, and it's also fun to see what other people vote. I really like them. Do you do polls on the other forums that you participate in, or just on Abstract?

surreal
05-26-2003, 12:26 PM
I conducted 2 polls on the Figure forum.

Gareth
05-26-2003, 12:30 PM
Being male my ego is like an enormous glass sculpture, vast, transparent and dangerously fragile. I respond to negative criticism like a slug to salt. Everybody should froth and squirm from time to time though, it keeps you level.

I'd like to add Zot and EJ to the AWOL list please.

somerset
05-26-2003, 12:31 PM
I do want criticisim, letting the chips fall where they may. I AM LEARNING. Any practitioner of any art form must have a fortified ego, either from within or externally supplied. How can you continue without that?

Mame, I am glad you re-joined this thread, you are one of the few parties who has given an instructive critique on one of my submissions. Did it sting? Yep. But you were right and you took the time to make sure I understood the points you were making. If you hadn't taken that time, your remarks probably would have been misconstrued and therefore valueless.

Back to the ego thing. If I like something some one has done but am unable to contribute anything, should I just pass it by silently? I don't think so because on a cumulative that approach will send the wrong message.

Gar
05-26-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by surreal
To Gar,

Can I assume that you always want both positive and negative criticism about the work you post?

I want honest Criticism Nina. Wether it be positive or negative.

Occasionally i'll post something that i don't really need any feedback on, but i'll usually let that be known in my comments in the header.

surreal
05-26-2003, 12:34 PM
That's good to know, Gar.
:)

marc
05-26-2003, 12:35 PM
I think this thread has taken a turn for the better. I have been asking previously on this forum on how to get more constructive criticism going, but not many seemed interested in discussing it. My choice so far has been to ask when I wanted suggestions/critique (which I rarely get, but people can't always be expected to critique everything either, it's *hard* to give good, thoughtful critique. Especially if it is beyond simple technical issues). I've also tried constructive suggestions and dialogue on some occassions where I felt it would be taken in the right spirit and might be a useful way of 'bouncing' opinions. But mostly I simply only say good things about the stuff I like, and the stuff I don't like or I can't form an opinion on I leave alone. Of course, the fact that I haven't commented on something doesn't mean I don't like it, I can't possibly look at and comment everything :D

Maybe we could agree to add a symbol to the pieces where we honestly are looking for *constructive* criticism. This does not imply criticism in the sense of 'I don't like this' or some other mindless drivel. Just a thought.

surreal
05-26-2003, 12:37 PM
Hey Marc,
Check the new thread I started.:)

surreal
05-26-2003, 12:42 PM
Hey Gar,

I often say "I love the colors" if I do love the colors.
You may think it's bs, but it isn't.

:)

Gar
05-26-2003, 12:44 PM
Good point Marc. You Can't comment on everything. And a good critique is hard to come by. I'm not the best at it. Molly is probably the constructive crit champion.

mame
05-26-2003, 12:45 PM
If you're new to this forum and scared and confused, historically amy suggested a "new" forum for presenting art that didn't fit into the then available slots, i.e., landscape, water color, oil, figurative, etc. It was not intended exclusively for abstract works but expressionistic, experimental, whatever. A catchall fondly termed "the basement". Dom the phenomenal watercolorist lived underneath the basement. in the "crawl space". One of the unspoken rules was - tell it like it is/as you see it. Pats on the head are for wusses.

It was also initially intended to be a safe haven for those who "thought outside the box", a place to philosophize about art, to vent, to discuss ways of working, thinking and being in art. To talk about art history, interesting exhibitions someone had seen or an artist someone particularly admired.

There were paintings made with blood, an emerging outsider artist, a young woman who made the hottest psychological narratives who was technically one of the finest "self-taught" draftswomen I have come across. Another young woman who grew up in an art family whose mother was a fine printmaker, young men and women going to art school.

These places are living beings. They change, evolve, grow, surge and wane. It's the nature of it.

I know I come across way too bossy. Take with a grain of salt.

somerset
05-26-2003, 12:53 PM
Gar

Yes good critique is hard to come by. Knowledge is a requirement and a good critique takes time.

heh
05-26-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by mame
Art is not a hobby, not a mid-life crisis, not a way of getting through a divorce or therapy for schitzophrenia or a way to make a few bucks to supplement one's income. It is a way of being in the world and I take it very, very seriously.



oh mame i want to kiss you
so few i see realize art is a way of being
and even fewer understand
you stated it magnificently

Gar
05-26-2003, 02:05 PM
Hi Dena,

Has yer fish been swimming to the moon lately? Keeping it's head below water.

:angel:

heh
05-26-2003, 02:14 PM
hello fluff warrior gar

the fish is searching for a castle at the bottom of the sea
it believes that more moons reside within the ocean depths

swim on little fish, swim on

:D

Luzie
05-26-2003, 02:26 PM
People dont respect abstract and its not hard to understand why when this is going on. The

"The good thing about art is, if it doesnt look like a bird, you can call it abstract."

Art is not a hobby, not a mid-life crisis, not a way of getting through a divorce or therapy for schitzophrenia or a way to make a few bucks to supplement one's income.

Thank you! That's exactly how I feel!

Critizism doesn't mean you have to bash somebody, in the end we know who's work we respect and look up to, and can take the critique from there (the old saying "consider the source"), but nothing but Kudos to anything is damaging and misleading to everybody.

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 03:55 PM
Heh, quoting someone mame, whose post I missed: "Art is not a hobby" Yes it is, to those who approach it that way, but not to you.

"not a mid-life crisis" Yes it is, to those who approach it that way, but not to you.

"not a way of getting through a divorce" Yes it is to those who turn to it, or lose themselves thankfully in it, for that reason, but not to you.

"[not] therapy for schitzophrenia" Yes it is to those who have or treat the disease and choose to approach it this way, but not to you.

"[not] a way to make a few bucks to supplement one's income." Yes it is to those who choose that approach, but not to you.

"It is a way of being in the world" I agree, and this statement also applies, in my opinion, to all the other approach choices mentioned above which, in my opinion, are equally valid for those that make those choices.

Stefan
05-26-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by surreal
Alot of people need ego stroking.
In fact, everyone needs ego stroking.
There's nothing wrong with stroking someone's ego - in fact there is everything right about it.

This is true Surreal. everyone does need it and does enjoy it. And I am not saying that I never wanted a a stroke here or there. I have always stated that I personally would like you to say WHATEVER it is on your mind on my posts.
If all you have to say is, wow this is nice, be my guest.
If you wanna say god this sucks arse, thats ok too.
I just want good honest feelings... how else am I to know where I stand?

The thing I am trying to point out is like this...
Last week I saw a Seinfeld episode where Elaine was looking at her friends baby... Her and Jeri thought the baby was horribly ugly. The Physician looks at Elaine and says shes "Breath taking". Elaine is weak in the knees at this comment... The doctor then says the baby is breathtaking also... followed later by him saying the moon was breathtaking...
Needless to say, she doesnt feel so "breathtaking" anymore.

If my girlfriend was to find out that I thought every woman on this earth was gorgeous... how should she feel?

Going with Molly's reference, American Idol. What judge do those contestants REALLY want to hear from?
Simon...
Because they know hes gonna give it to them straight, and when he says he likes it... They all about faint. Because they know they have finally had a success.

How else is someone going to be encouraged to push themselves further and to better themselves if all they ever hear is how wonderful their work is?

You get stroked all day long by the people in your life who know you and dont want to hurt your feelings, you come to a site like this where noone knows you and they can feel comfortable in telling you the truth.

Thats all I am saying.
at least thats how I feel about it.

You can't assume that you know the reasons behind what I or anyone else posts. :) You can't assume that what I or anyone else posts about another's work is fluff.

No I am not assuming its a lie or conspiracy. Calling it fluff doesnt mean that your faking your comments... it simply means its like icing on the cake. Not really what the person wanted, but theyll take it.

But when the chat really gets all googy woogy smushy on top of it, thats when it really gets flufftified. Then it just gets a little too deep and its tough for the person to even take the comment serious... again, thats a personal opinion.


When I have been brutally honest here and presented constructive criticism to people who you respect highly, amongst the old timers, I was sorry I did. The folk I was brutally honest with (always in a very nice way), couldn't take it; they wanted ego stroking too.

This is very true. and could be the root of the fluff problem.
its the chicken and egg thing, we dont know which of these came first.
But obviously if someone does finally give a good critique and the recipient then lashes out at them, theyre not gonna want to give another good critique.
El is a good example of this. He gets backlash alot after his critiques. Not the way I would have handled it, but thats how some do. and it ruins it for those of us here who are seriously trying to learn from other artists.

It happened on a thread of my own awhile back, in fact the last painting I posted. mame critiqued it and the entire thread errupted into chaos. hehe
It was terrible.
I feel somewhat responsible for this rift being created as it seems like alot of it was formed on my very own thread!!!

And I mean come on.... some people here throw this 'artist' term around so casually. What kind of artist are you if you cant even hang yourself out there to be critisized?


We are all jello beneath our seemingly tough exteriors, IMHO.

Thats true, and im TOTALLY not any different. Anyone in my life would tell you that I am a total wussy. But dammit, I wanna learn. And WC looked like it was the oasis in my personal desert.

I have noone in my life I can discuss this with and learn from... I hoped a site like this would change that.


People can also post polls in which one receives a great deal of honesty regarding one's artwork. A poll, in which one remains anonymous, is a great way to get honest feedback.
I recently posted a poll asking for opinions regarding my trees and 45 people responded.
:D
This a good suggestion. And I think I will take your advice on this.
To be honest I cant believe I havent done so already.
Thanks for the advice.


Anyway to sum up, I am not trying to single out anyone, especially not you surreal. You have always given me good advice when you could.
But I do feel the same way about this issue as Gar and mame. So I am just putting in my two cents.

Stefan
05-26-2003, 04:11 PM
and mame, your right.
why on earth would they not have made another forum for the reasons you mentioned?! (or amyH actually)

I have installed and maintained several forums both PHP and CGI based and they are all extremely easy to work.
It would take all of 4 or 5 minutes to create a new forum and have people begin posting in it.

Its curious that they didnt do this...

heh
05-26-2003, 05:55 PM
in my humble opinion...

painting (or any other medium) i believe is a hobby
painting can be a way of getting through divorce, hardship
painting can be a mid life crisis
painting can be therapy
painting can be a way to make a few bucks
all of those i would classify under hobby

art is a way of being in the world, art
painting is not necessarily art
the act of painting and creating art are different things
when one has art as a way of being, their paintings are art
it is more than paint on canvas
it is a lifestyle, a thought process, a way of seeing,
a movement of the heart, knowing and not knowing, a kinship
loving, beauty, grace, truth
it is not a choice, it just is
one either is or isn’t
one doesn’t need to paint (or any other medium) for it to be

with hobbyists (art hobbyists?) and artists
skill is irrelevant
good or bad is irrelevant, both have a good and bad
validity is irrelevant, they are both valid
they both can be bought and sold
they both can be whored
both can hang in museums
in galleries
your living room
your basement where no one can see

people who have art as a way of being know their kin
i can tell you mine who are here
hobbyists have their kin as well
hobbyists are not a bad thing
but when the ratio of an artist's kin to hobbyists goes down
the artist becomes uncomfortable
kin is nice to be around, it is needed
and when “fluff” is added to that
the artist becomes more uncomfortable
when one’s kin gives them fluff,
they are still, at least, around kin

and also add to that, that the artist is trying to live through/with their art
and sees seemingly carelessly thrown together paintings everywhere
and people who put their attention in funny places
and the majority of attentions are fluff
it becomes quite frustrating

i don’t remember what the topic is
or what i am saying, or why
five fish and two pumpkins make the world swoon
and all we care about is the tide and the moon
and a clam who wants to walk above the shore
grow wings
and take venus for a ride

:)
dena

heh
05-26-2003, 05:57 PM
In my craft or sullen art

In my craft or sullen art
Exercised in the still night
When only the moon rages
And the lovers lie abed
With all their griefs in their arms,
I labour by singing light
Not for ambition or bread
Or the strut and trade of charms
On the ivory stages
But for the common wages
Of their most secret heart.

Not for the proud man apart
From the raging moon I write
On these spindrift pages
Not for the towering dead
With their nightingales and psalms
But for the lovers, their arms
Round the griefs of the ages,
Who pay no praise or wages
Nor heed my craft or art.

---Dylan Thomas

DanaT
05-26-2003, 06:29 PM
I think criticism is highly overrated and support is highly underrated. I keep thinking the phrase, "Those who can't, teach." And those who can't create, critique.

I critique occassionally too, to sharpen my observation skills but it can be a drug that keeps one away from actually doing the work. Its easier to talk about art than it is to do it and I'd rather be doing it than talking about it.

Its also easier to deconstruct a work than it is to create it. So my gut instinct says that critiquing just show you're honest is for wussies and not real artists. The real artists are out there painting and occassionally checking in to see what stuff they like, get an answer to a question, and help someone if needed and then they're off to their studio again. Real artists seldom have time for arguments such as this.

Honestly, my biggest breakthroughs have been through artist friends who were painting in a class with me or completing their own work while I was doing mine. They weren't that much better than me, not that much worse than me. They were always encouraging and always helpful. What they said was more useful because of our experience painting together. I could always use it and always get better.

Isn't that what you want from feedback?

Honesty in and of itself, without a purpose, doesn't always help, can sometimes hurt.

Plus I'd rather be painting, which is what I'm going to do. :)

Bye all.

surreal
05-26-2003, 07:48 PM
Hi Stefan,

I don't feel that you were trying to single me out.
Everything is cool.
Peace,
:)

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 08:32 PM
Dana,

I appreciate your comments and feel enriched by reading them tonight. Thank you.

A moment ago, I printed Judith's comments from the other thread (Surreal's thread), and now I'll be printing yours. Both will be taped to this monitor to help me when I'm faltering in my efforts to comment and encourage on Wet Canvas.

With your comments, I also plan to tape a copy to my other monitor (where I paint), to help ground me when I falter with my painting. I pour everything I am into every painting effort, and often agonize over various aspects of my work, wishing to do better, feeling as if I'm sweating blood with every stroke. I think that your comments will help ground me when, as I often do, I am feeling lost or frustrated or desolate of ability. I wish I could be in a class with you. I'd love to muddle along next to you and gain your friendly insights as we go. What you've described sounds like a wonderful experience on many levels.

DanaT
05-26-2003, 08:44 PM
You're welcome, Adrienne. If artists don't help other artists out, do we really expect the non-artists to help out? hardly. :rolleyes:

Take care.

muchfoolishness
05-26-2003, 10:29 PM
silence may be consent
but what use is yelling in a foriegn language?
is is just is

and the fishes swim
see the sudden flash of their changing directions
all at once in the sunlight
responding to some shared
secret knowledge of the moon

all at once

blkros
05-26-2003, 10:34 PM
I sit on the moon,
watching the fish flash their fins.
Finally, falling
Into the Sea
of Tranquility.
Home at last.

Adrienne
05-26-2003, 11:35 PM
Leonard Cohen and Sharon Robinson, the Land of Plenty, partial excerpt:

Don't really have the courage
To stand where I must stand.
Don't really have the temperament
To lend a helping hand.

Don't really know who sent me
to raise my voice and say:
May the lights in The Land of Plenty
Shine on the truth some day.

I don't know why I come here,
Knowing as I do,
What you really think of me,
What I really think of you.

For the innermost decision,
That we cannot but obey --
For what's left of our religion,
I lift my voice and pray:
May the lights in The Land of Plenty
Shine on the truth some day.

Gar
05-26-2003, 11:52 PM
Heh,

You are quite a wise woman. Much wiser than i was at your age. I look forward to seeing your future unfurl before you. make it count Dena. You only get one shot at it, and you've got amazing potential for greatness.

Yours Truly - Gar Bailey

El_Elegante
05-27-2003, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by mame
Surreal


I mean really. Do you think you're an accomplished "artist" after 3 paintings and book on "the spirituality of color" and your work is beyond criticism? (keep your mouth shut about art is fun and everything and anything is art if you say it is, Kelly)

If ya do, you're living in a dream world. You're that poor fop on American Idol singing Madonna's "Like a Virgin".

Your right molly.. it took me at least 6-8 paintings.

seriously though.. some good points made here.. I agree with most of stephans comments. I am also insulted by the way some people throw the term abstract art around as if abstract artists painted that way because they couldn't make a bird look like a bird. I think the goal of most great abstract artists is to express the essense of something that cannot be captured in a photograph.. but that does not make that essense any less true or arbitrary. A great work of abstract art has a reason and purpose in every single line or blot on the canvas. a single missing dot or extra line out of thousands can ruin a masterpeice. That is how careful one must be, and how difficult it is to create great abstract art. This challenge is complicated by the fact that there is no blueprint.. or reference.. you have to keep it all in your head.. your vision locked and focused for as long as it takes. know when to deviate from it. know when not to.. and to do all this well.. you have to learn it so well it becomes instinct. your eye has to be impecable. your understanding on the implications of every color or line has to be understood before you do it.

so if your doing this.. how and why do you address someone about their work that says they just like to spread color around cause it makes them happy? How do you say anything without being labeled as elitist? How do you not offend?

Adrienne
05-27-2003, 05:10 AM
El asks, How do you not offend?

El,

If you choose to, and it certainly isn't necessary for you to, but if you choose to, you can choose to accept that happy-paint-smooshing person's choices as they apply to them, and encourage from where you perceive them to be, rather than from where you perceive yourself to be.

I think this is tolerance in action: realizing that someone else has an entirely different view than yours, one that you could never accept for yourself, yet accepting that this view is okay as it applies to that other person. Depending on your outlook, and the situation, you may find yourself feeling that it doesn't stain you or degrade you to accept them as they are, and encourage them in their path, despite the fact that their thought processes are in an entirely different place than yours ever were or ever could be.

I think that being tolerant of those we perceive as being or thinking in a way that is entirely different than ourselves can be very enriching. It seems that being patient and empathic to that person requires us to set our own ego to the side and this, of course, isn't something that each of us would always choose to do, or that any of us can do successfully all the time. Yet it is an effort that we can each renew every day, if we choose to, or never, if we choose not to.

These possibilities are the subject of Dr. Cutler's comments about the Dalai Lama:

--- "Every one of us can develop
--- this same suppleness of mind.
--- It comes about, at least in part,
--- directly through our efforts to
--- stretch our perspective and
--- deliberately try on new
--- viewpoints. The end result
--- is a simultaneous awareness
--- of the big picture as well as
--- our individual circumstances.
--- This dual outlook, a concurrent
--- view of the "Big World"
--- and our own "Little World,"
--- can act as a kind of triage."

dragoni689
05-27-2003, 09:54 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dena, you're QUITE eloquent for your age. I'm gonna drop you a line VIA PM.

El_Elegante
05-27-2003, 11:39 AM
Adrienne,

See that's my point.. it's hard to say much without seeming intolerant and elitist. I appreciate art on lots of levels. I enjoy seeing the work of hobbiests, beginners and masters as long as it's done with sincerity. but when it comes down to the issues I deal with as an artist, they are often far different from the issues that a hobbiest might be dealing with. I have many different roles to play in art. I am a fairly serious collector of art. I am a very serious artist. I am a big fan of art in general. Some of these roles cause conflicts of interest if I do not remain very objective. I can't exactly take an "I love all art" attitude when looking to invest in a $2000 painting, or trying to improve my work. on the otherhand, I can appreciate work done by a beginner.. but where to draw the line between back patting and critique is a difficult issue. I have a shrewd eye for art from my own work and my collecting.. I can't always say what's on my mind or I'd sound like an arsehole. at the same time.. I don't want to be patting people on the back all the time.. it ends up leaving me a bit in limbo.

surreal
05-27-2003, 12:07 PM
This is on and off the topic:

Wetcanvas is a forum for the hobbyists and professional artists and for those who are not serious about art and for those who take art extremely seriously. I'm in the category of the extremely serious artist.

Granted, alot of folk who post on WC, are not at all serious about art.

But thats the way it is here.
It's a potpourri.

I try not to take it all so seriously.

When I comment on people's artwork, I comment with honesty. I may not say "the whole truth" of my feelings about a person's work, but just pick out what I like about the painting and comment on that.

People's feelings are of great importance.
I would never want to wound someone with words, even inadvertently.

Life's too short.

Reading over what I just wrote, there seems to be a lack of cohesiveness. But I've gotta go off to work now.

dodger
05-27-2003, 12:23 PM
Tolerance is one thing, but a lack of respect is quite another.

I think one of the problems with this site is that it's very difficult for professionals, beginners, hobbyists & general art appreciators to all "get along" at the same level.

What is lacking here is a general appreciation & respect for those who have been in the trenches with years of experience under their belt.

What smacks more of ego than someone claiming that their opinion of "art" is just as valid as someone who has often spent their entire lives working in the art world?

El_Elegante
05-27-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by dodger

What smacks more of ego than someone claiming that their opinion of "art" is just as valid as someone who has often spent their entire lives working in the art world?

Exactly.. I don't tell my doctor that I think he's wrong and I have some ideas about how to fix my broken leg. I like to play basketball sometimes, but you don't see me telling Michael Jordan that I dissagree with is defensive strategy. There are even some mediums and types of art that I have no qualification for commenting on.

One does not confuse an amature piano player with a master painist. One of the consequences of abstract art is that many people are claiming the validity of a serious mastery of the work when that couldn't be further from the truth. It's like someone saying they are a master pianist and it's just suppost to sound like they hit the wrong notes and it's out of time because it's an abstract composition.

Anyway, in general even great abstract artists seem to be more tolerant of amature art than other genres... You should see how uptight people get in the figure or realism realm.. most realists I've seen wouldn't even condescend to talk to me. Im not even an artist in some of their eyes.

blkros
05-27-2003, 01:48 PM
You think you've got it bad El--I'm a collage/mixed media artist.
We don't get no respect.
:D :evil:

El_Elegante
05-27-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by blkros
You think you've got it bad El--I'm a collage/mixed media artist.
We don't get no respect.
:D :evil:

mixed media????? Your dead to me!!!! I don't know you!!! :eek:

Stefan
05-27-2003, 02:54 PM
El you make some good points in this thread.
You cut it up and put it out there and it makes alot of sense.

Adrienne, I actually agree with you on your last point. Its tough to be open minded, probably the toughest thing for a human to do.

I dont really know what else I can add to this thread since I typed a damn book last time, but I think that dodger summed it up perfectly. This sites fatal flaw is its best characteristic... its diversity.

She also said:
What is lacking here is a general appreciation & respect for those who have been in the trenches with years of experience under their belt.

What smacks more of ego than someone claiming that their opinion of "art" is just as valid as someone who has often spent their entire lives working in the art world?

And this is a good point...
And its safe to say that WC probably has more hobbyists than professionals, not to mention those who are serious about art are mostly going to be beginners like me...

So should we simply set aside the hopes of good honest quality critiques here at WC?
And post just to show others our work?

surreal
05-27-2003, 10:40 PM
Hi Stefan :)

In response to:

So should we simply set aside the hopes of good honest quality critiques here at WC?

I don't think you should set aside your hopes.
Sometimes you'll get good honest critiques; sometimes you won't.

Good honest critiques are sometimes very time-consuming.
All those qualified to offer good critiques don't have the time to do so.

For myself, what I enjoy most about WC is its recreational aspect - looking at alot of images of work on a daily basis - sometimes I see works which are inspirational or that make me feel a sense of joy.

You will be going to art school soon, I seem to recall.
You will get alot of critiques of your work there.

Perfection is non-existent.
It's an imperfect world and WC is an imperfect forum.
Everything is imperfect.

Maybe cynicism has gotten the best of me.

:rolleyes:

']['REMBLE
05-28-2003, 07:50 AM
ya know, if no-one ever tells me i'm doin it wrong, i'll keep on doin it wrong. the only way that i can improve, is to get that "negative" feedback. Yeah, sometimes it pricks my ego, but don't you think it could stand deflating occaisionally? i don't always react well to getting that negative post, but i find that if i give my bruised ego time to heal, i'll see that their comment was legitimate. and if i feel that it was an unfair jab...well, ya can't dwell on that, there are A** holes everywhere.
i'd rather have someone say "the proportions are wrong" than to patronize me with a " oooh i like this" when they really don't.
I, personally, came here to learn...nothing else matters.
']['