PDA

View Full Version : Titanium-Zinc White: is it safe?


Mythrill
03-22-2012, 06:55 PM
Hello, guys. I've heard a lot of horrible stories about zinc white peeling off the canvas (which is a shame, because I love it). Anyway, when I look at Winsor & Newton's color chart (both student-grade and professional-grade), I notice their Titanium White is also contains Zinc White! Is this safe? Won't this make the paint peel off the canvas? Also, about Zinc alone, I feel I'm at a big loss: I certainly don't want my paint to peel off, but I love its transparency!

sidbledsoe
03-22-2012, 07:06 PM
i have used straight zinc white in paintings about 40 years old and they don't peel. same thing with titanium zinc white, no peeling, not now, not ever.

mariposa-art
03-22-2012, 07:11 PM
Who is the "natural pig" guy?

As for Zinc, there have been stories and articles about it "delaminating," but I think it depends on a lot of factors. Some artists have used Zinc and never had any flaking off or cracking.

From what I understand, titanium and zinc mixtures are pretty much agreed upon to be "safe" (according to most people with an opinion), since the zinc in the mixture isn't that high anyway. (This is what I've learned from a previous thread about zinc.) I use lots of Titanium/Zinc white, am not worried at all, and most of the leading manufacturers of oil paint (including Vasari! :D ) have Zinc-Titanium whites. So I certainly wouldn't worry about that.

Mythrill
03-22-2012, 07:21 PM
Who is the "natural pig" guy?


I suppose he's referring to "Natural Pigments", a company that sells many historical pigments used for restorations or classical art.

sidbledsoe
03-22-2012, 07:25 PM
i edited it out, it is too inflammatory, much like the article itself. sorry, never mind.

Mythrill
03-22-2012, 07:30 PM
i edited it out, it is too inflammatory, much like the article itself. sorry, never mind.

I seriously think you didn't have to. I just want to know the truth, and if that's really the truth...

mariposa-art
03-22-2012, 07:42 PM
I believe I did some research on AMIEN about zinc, and that's where I heard that the Titanium/Zinc mixtures should be okay. Zinc by itself—I don't have an opinion. Though if I were ever inclined to start using it, I'd probably ask artists who successfully use it (like Sid here :) ) what their procedures are, as to give me an idea of what is working for them.

This is just my half-baked opinion, but it seems like if you are the least bit worried, you can alleviate some of that worry by working on rigid supports. So many cautions and worries that oil painters have (about cracking or whatever) seem to be lessened when the painting is on a rigid surface, like panel or something. Not that rigid supports are a cure-all, but I know AMIEN seems to favor them. :)

WFMartin
03-22-2012, 08:23 PM
I would not use zinc white alone, but I have no problem using it in the form of a mixture with Titanium White, such as Permalba White, or as a mixture with Lead Carbonate, as in Old Holland's Flake White.

I believe that many of these concerns about longevity can be reduced by realizing that not many of these "notorious" ingredients are used alone, but are used in mixes, instead--either with other whites, or with other colors, as well as with mediums. For example, when Zinc White is mixed with an earth color, or a couple of cadmium colors, as well as with some Titanium White, and the painting medium of one's choice, it ceases to behave like the initial Zinc White, and merely becomes an ingredient in a "mix" that is not "Zinc White", any more, but a totally new, and different substance.

I'm sure that most of us would not use Zinc White as it is out of the tube, and just smear it on by itself, covering large areas of canvas. When used as I'm sure most of us would use it, I don't actually believe Zinc White to be much of a true, archival problem.

plog
03-22-2012, 08:46 PM
iirc, the whole delaminating thing only happened when a canvas was
removed from its stretcher bars and rolled into a cylindar. Note for
conservators, don't do that.

Trond
03-22-2012, 08:53 PM
Philip de Laszlo used zinc white exclusively. Many of his paintings are now around 100 years old, and I have a hard time finding any cracks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Sir_William_Matthew_Flinders_Petrie_by_Philip_Alexius_de_L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3.jpg

Red 9
03-22-2012, 09:38 PM
I am not scared of the Zinc!!! In my opinion PW6 alone is not a very nice paint to use. The addition of Zinc really helps in appearance and handling.

Edit: And here's something to chew on. The top left white is Blockx Titanium. It's straight PW6 ground in Poppy oil, yet because it's such an oily paint, it ends up looking just as yellow after a week as the Harding Cremnitz white ground in linseed oil. Both Lefranc paints have Zinc and like I said above you can see it really helps with appearance and consistency! *sorry the photo is not great*

http://i39.tinypic.com/23lhxcp.jpg

Freesail
03-22-2012, 10:22 PM
Seems we have tread after thread of people worrying about the safety of oil painting.

Isn't that what acrylics are for?

Mythrill
03-22-2012, 10:29 PM
Seems we have tread after thread of people worrying about the safety of oil painting.

Isn't that what acrylics are for?

The point here is not if zinc white is harmful to your health. It's not. The point is if it's harmful to your painting.

Besides, while I do love acrylics, sometimes I switch to oil painting because acrylics tend to dry faster, so you have to mix everything faster and even when you use a stay-wet palette, you waste quite a lot of paint. The good parts of it, of course, is that you can get some pigments that are pretty expensive in oils that are very cheap in acrylics, even in artist-grade lines. Winsor & Newton has very nice acrylic genuine cobalts, for instance.

sidbledsoe
03-23-2012, 09:16 AM
Titanium zinc white has an extremely long worldwide history of usage in millions of paintings. Every major paint company makes it. They use zinc oxide in many colors besides white. I have used it all of my life, every artist I know has used it for all of their lives. Millions of artists are now using it every day. I am personally not worried. But as you know, a certain small company has written up a "report" and literally scared the hell out of everyone.

bjr001
03-23-2012, 06:33 PM
Hello, guys. I've heard a lot of horrible stories about zinc white peeling off the canvas (which is a shame, because I love it). Anyway, when I look at Winsor & Newton's color chart (both student-grade and professional-grade), I notice their Titanium White is also contains Zinc White! Is this safe? Won't this make the paint peel off the canvas? Also, about Zinc alone, I feel I'm at a big loss: I certainly don't want my paint to peel off, but I love its transparency!

Philip de Laszlo used zinc white exclusively. Many of his paintings are now around 100 years old, and I have a hard time finding any cracks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...1szl%C3%B3.jpg

This is because Laszio did not paint on acrylic gesso (ground). The study in question showed that zinc white oil paint only had problems on acrylic grounds and then, only sometimes. In fact the report sited a 26 year study as the basis of the report. There is very little and inconsistent real-world evidence in existing works that can back up the study. Even with all this, the conclusion of the study as well as opinions of other including Natural Pigments, AMEIN and Golden is that even if there isn’t any definite evidence and when it does happen we are not sure why it does, if you what your work to be archival, don’t use zinc white oil paint.

If they had said there may be some incompatibility with zinc white and acrylic gesso they would have opened up Pandora’s Box considering how prevalent acrylic gesso is used today. Fact is, practically all paint manufactures makes zinc oil paint.

Trond
03-23-2012, 08:28 PM
This is because Laszio did not paint on acrylic gesso (ground). The study in question showed that zinc white oil paint only had problems on acrylic grounds and then, only sometimes. In fact the report sited a 26 year study as the basis of the report. There is very little and inconsistent real-world evidence in existing works that can back up the study. Even with all this, the conclusion of the study as well as opinions of other including Natural Pigments, AMEIN and Golden is that even if there isn’t any definite evidence and when it does happen we are not sure why it does, if you what your work to be archival, don’t use zinc white oil paint.

If they had said there may be some incompatibility with zinc white and acrylic gesso they would have opened up Pandora’s Box considering how prevalent acrylic gesso is used today. Fact is, practically all paint manufactures makes zinc oil paint.

Yes, I also have a suspicion about zinc white on "plasticky" grounds such as acrylic. There were some early disasters in the 19th century with using zinc white as a ground (in place of lead white), but some of those paintings have also survived without problems. Maybe the ones that survived were allowed to cure for longer or something. zinc dries slower than lead after all.

Mythrill
03-23-2012, 10:24 PM
What pisses me off the most, though, is the misleading labeling. If you're expecting to buy Titanium White from a serious company, then they should label the mix clearly as a mix of Titanium-Zinc white, not as pure Titanium White. Sure, most companies show the pigments on the paint tube – but I was once buying at a store and, considering Titanium White (PW6) is cheap, I was never expecting the brand I got to be a blend. When I saw it was actually (PW6, PW4), I was inclined to throw away the large tube I got. Thankfully, the seller gave my money back. But she didn't have any obligation to do it. What if she didn't? So, even if the mix is not dangerous, I'd like to be warned if it's a single pigment or a blend.

Ron Francis
03-24-2012, 06:47 AM
I believe that some manufacturers don't list the pigment PW4 on the tubes when they contain zinc. It is added mainly to enhance the brush-ability of the paint because titanium alone is stringy. If not zinc, then aluminium stearate is probably added. Bee's was could also be used but obviously it is more fragile in hot weather.

Mythrill
03-24-2012, 12:07 PM
I believe that some manufacturers don't list the pigment PW4 on the tubes when they contain zinc. It is added mainly to enhance the brush-ability of the paint because titanium alone is stringy. If not zinc, then aluminium stearate is probably added. Bee's was could also be used but obviously it is more fragile in hot weather.

Aluminium stearate would be a better choice then. It's pretty much mandatory in oil painting, and it doesn't change the property of pigments much. Plus, it reduces the potency of PW6 a bit, which is overwhelming even when toned down.

Red 9
03-24-2012, 03:27 PM
Aluminium stearate would be a better choice then. It's pretty much mandatory in oil painting, and it doesn't change the property of pigments much. Plus, it reduces the potency of PW6 a bit, which is overwhelming even when toned down.

No I don't think it would be a better choice. There's a good reason so many companies specifically use zinc {they are the experts after all}. In my chart I posted you see what PW6 without some zinc looks like. Extremely stringy, shiny, chalky and off white...really not a nice pigment on its own!

mariposa-art
03-24-2012, 03:32 PM
I did a brief check on AMIEN and found a comment written on their forums by one of the AMIEN staff about Zinc: They said (paraphrasing) that it's still okay to use, as long as it's less than 15% in a mixture, is painted on rigid support (like a panel) and is varnished afterwards. I assume that they mean even if it's painted on an acrylic ground?

I recall reading a thread on AMIEN (which I haven't re-found yet) which indicated that the paint manufacturers don't put more than 15% of zinc in their mixtures. I am going on faith that this is true. I paint almost exclusively on rigid supports and intend to varnish my paintings, so I'm going to keep using my Titanium/Zinc whites. I mean, I bought a tube of Tit/Zinc from Vasari, for crying out loud! :lol:

sidbledsoe
03-24-2012, 07:04 PM
Aluminium stearate would be a better choice then.
I do not think so.
it doesn't change the property of pigments much.
Yes it does, very much so.

AS performs a totally different function in oil paint formulation that zinc oxide or any other normal pigment. There are three main functions, stabilization (keeping pigment suspended in oil rather than separating upon storage), and dispersion and wetting during the grinding process. By using the proper amount of AS, the paint can gel while using a lower pigment concentration. AS addition to paint is viewed just as negatively by that same certain zinc chicken little company. They tout their historical paints which do not contain AS or other additive, and yes from what i understand their paint is very often sloppy but that's the way they like it and want it to be. Just like the old masters used. The stuff that is all cracked up now and hanging in museums.

Plus, it reduces the potency of PW6 a bit, which is overwhelming even when toned down.
this is merely one of the main reasons that zinc and titanium are the most perfect marriage of pigment formulations.
Titanium makes a strong tinting chalky, opaque, overpowering white, zinc more transparent, not chalky, weaker tinting white, thus T+Z = the perfect white tinter.
Titanium makes a spongy paint film, zinc slightly brittle, thus T+Z = the perfect paint film.
This is the reason the best paint makers in the entire world make TZ white, it is great stuff. The stuff you are wanting to throw in the trash.
I think the zinc chicken little report damage has been done.
The aspersions have been cast and they will not ever go away now. Many members here regularly report that they avoid any paint with any zinc in it whatsoever. They cannot allay their fears and reservations now or ever and that is what i find kinda sad.
So I would suggest that you not ever use it at all simply for the reason of achieving a peace of mind. For peace of mind is important and very condusive to making art without distractions such as constant worry over delaminations, crackings, and disintegrations of ones precious creations.
I would also look into the brittle attributes of ivory black, umber, driers, safflower oil, poppy oil, and oil paint itself. Oil paint: is it safe?
well it all gets brittle and cracks, it just does. Alkyds and or acrylics may be a better choice for avoiding cracking in paintings.

Mythrill
03-24-2012, 08:52 PM
Sid, thanks for the enlightenment about aluminium stearate. I didn't know it also affected things like dispersion and wetting. I'm rethinking about zinc white, because I do like it, but regardless of that, I would like pigments to be named as they are. It's only fair to know what you're getting, isn't it? If it's a blend, then the tube should say something like "Titanium White (15% Zinc Oxide)", for instance.

And, of course, this is not only about Zinc White. Winsor & Newton has pigments like "Cadmium Yellow Deep", except that their "Deep" variation isn't pure Cadmium Yellow, but a blend of Cadmium Yellow and Cadmium Orange. It's not a bad tube of paint, but I want to know how pure Cadmium Yellow Deep compares someday.

Red 9
03-24-2012, 09:16 PM
Sid really summed it up perfectly! I think Zinc white is a really nice pigment that has gotten an unfairly bad rep.


Mythrill- To be honest I am thinking that most companies leave the names the same to reduce redundancy and confusion. Yes it can be annoying, but makers do list pigments on both the tube and their websites, so there's no reason people can't be aware of what they are buying.

And by the way if you truly are looking for a single pigment cad yellow deep, Gamblin makes a very nice one with PY37.

Mythrill
03-24-2012, 09:42 PM
Sid really summed it up perfectly! I think Zinc white is a really nice pigment that has gotten an unfairly bad rep.


Mythrill- To be honest I am thinking that most companies leave the names the same to reduce redundancy and confusion. Yes it can be annoying, but makers do list pigments on both the tube and their websites, so there's no reason people can't be aware of what they are buying.

And by the way if you truly are looking for a single pigment cad yellow deep, Gamblin makes a very nice one with PY37.

Red, in my case I was also unaware of what I was buying because I trusted the color chart of said company, that only listed a single pigment, but in the tube it listed two. They changed the formula without updating the color chart.

About PY37... I never heard about it before. Thanks for the tip! I'll research a bit further. Do you use it? If so, what makes it different from PY35?

Red 9
03-24-2012, 10:19 PM
Oh yea that's extremely annoying! That has happened to me before where the Blick site listed a different pigment than the one on the tube! I do think it wouldn't hurt if companies were a little more pro-active in keeping up with this stuff.

I've never used PY37 but I believe it's like the true deep yellow, leaning reddish. I have a couple of Gamblins cadmiums and they are great for the price. Gamblin also has true cadmium orange which is another one that you see as mixes a lot these days.

Mythrill
03-24-2012, 10:37 PM
Oh yea that's extremely annoying! That has happened to me before where the Blick site listed a different pigment than the one on the tube! I do think it wouldn't hurt if companies were a little more pro-active in keeping up with this stuff.

I've never used PY37 but I believe it's like the true deep yellow, leaning reddish. I have a couple of Gamblins cadmiums and they are great for the price. Gamblin also has true cadmium orange which is another one that you see as mixes a lot these days.

Thankfully, I can also purchase true cadmium orange here (PO20, right)? It's pretty funny, because good acrylic paints here cost a small fortune, but you can get reasonable good oil paint here for a ridiculously cheap price. The cadmiums are a prime example of this: I can get a tube of 37ml of cadmium orange (oil paint) for around $3.00-4.00. And it pretty much has the stiff consistency, the smell, mixing purity and high covering power described in cadmiums, so I don't believe it's fake. I even compared Corfix's Cad. Red Medium to Winsor & Newton's (acrylics), and it has the same slightly muted masstones and undertones.

Of course, these paints are from a national brand (Corfix), and they lack many good stuff, such as PY110, or true cerulean, and the imported brands are ridiculously expensive – the biggest offender being Cobalt Violet Light from maimeri Puro, which costs around $150.00 here for a 40ml tube.

sidbledsoe
03-24-2012, 10:45 PM
PY35 is cadmium zinc sulphide and PY37 is just cadmium sulphide. Each one has variations like PY37:1 which also contains barium sulphide. The hues are similar but 37 is sometimes more orange than 35.

Red 9
03-24-2012, 10:46 PM
Oh gosh yea I don't even bother with Cobalt Violet! I think Manganese is a pretty good violet. I've never even heard of Corfix to be honest. Are they marketed as artist grade paint? And yes cad orange is PO20.

PY110...I have a tube of this- M. Graham Indian Yellow. I currently use it as my deep yellow.

Mythrill
03-24-2012, 11:09 PM
Oh gosh yea I don't even bother with Cobalt Violet! I think Manganese is a pretty good violet. I've never even heard of Corfix to be honest. Are they marketed as artist grade paint? And yes cad orange is PO20.

PY110...I have a tube of this- M. Graham Indian Yellow. I currently use it as my deep yellow.

The only temptation about Cobalt Violet is in one variation: Cobalt Violet Light. This variation is a true, completely lightfast magenta – the surprise came up in this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1035642). Sure, it's very bluish, but if you add some red to it (maybe cadmium red), you can theoretically get hues nearly identical to rose madder which can outlast any PR122 or PV19. And it only helps that Cobalt Violet Light is very transparent. If it only weren't for the price...

He was lucky, though. He got that version from a national store close to his home. The only other hues I've found that are similar to the one I've seen in that thread is the one Maimeri Puro produces (they call it Cobalt Violet Pale) and Blockx (as Cobalt Violet).

sidbledsoe
03-24-2012, 11:38 PM
I made some cobalt violet one time, here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=931993).

Mythrill
03-25-2012, 12:32 AM
I made some cobalt violet one time, here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=931993).

That's the deep variation though, right? That flower is a nice painting you got there, by the way, and I envy you for being able to create your own pigments. About the color shift when taking a photo... I hate that too. I've researched a little and found out it affects reds, oranges and intense greens the most. You can try to fix that a bit by manually fixing saturation in photoshop and setting up the main hue of the painting slightly, but it still doesn't fix the problem completely.

DaveGhmn
03-25-2012, 07:14 AM
Mythrill -- how much is the Corfix alaranjado de camio (for what size tube) from Corfix? On the web, they seem to be an interesting art supply manufacturer.

re: the camera hue shift problem. The color algorithms for most makers emphasize beautifying Caucasian skin and punching up green (grass). Kodak did a great job at one time with chips that could emulate its old Kodachrome, which also played up Canadian blue sky. But none of them seem to pursue accurate color rendition...

Mythrill
03-25-2012, 01:10 PM
Mythrill -- how much is the Corfix alaranjado de camio (for what size tube) from Corfix? On the web, they seem to be an interesting art supply manufacturer.


Oh, so you've seen their catalog, haven't you? Too bad they don't have the paints don't have their name in English and Spanish as they do in the tube. They are in group 3 (ranging from 1-4), so all the paints from these group cost around $3 online (20ml) or $5 (37ml). As you have noticed, there are three shades of the single-pigmented PO20: Cadmium Yellow-Orange (Amarelo Cádmio Alaranjado), Cadmium Orange (Alaranjado de Cádmio), and Red-Orange Cadmium (Vermelho Cádmio Alaranjado). A word of warning, though: they also have a group of oil paints that they also call "Cadmium Orange", but that are in "group 1". They are hues, and you can notice that by the words (imit.) Strangely, they have a few pigments in group 1 and 2 that seem to be the same, like PR122. The one in group 1 is called "Quinacridone Magenta", and the one in group 2 just "Magenta".

I bought the lightest shade, because I tought the other two were too orange. Here is what it looks like out of the tube (I used a regular office paper, so sorry about the oily mess).



Masstone:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Mar-2012/96427-Cadmium_Yellow_Orange_-_Masstone.jpg

Masstone and undertone (mixed with Pebeo XL Titanium White, PW6 only):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Mar-2012/96427-Cadmium_Yellow_Orange.jpg

So, their lightest shade of PO20, Cadmium Yellow-Orange is close to Maimeri Puro's Cadmium Orange out of the tube, but Corfix's PO20 is much less pigmented, given the price.

Maimeri's Cadmium Orange:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Mar-2012/96427-Maimeri.jpg

So, what do you think Corfix's Cadmium Yellow-Orange?



re: the camera hue shift problem. The color algorithms for most makers emphasize beautifying Caucasian skin and punching up green (grass). Kodak did a great job at one time with chips that could emulate its old Kodachrome, which also played up Canadian blue sky. But none of them seem to pursue accurate color rendition...

I always try to correct my color swatches calibrating my monitor and using photoshop to correct hue and saturation always looking at the sample in my hands. For instance, the original photo was actually a bit yellower than the pigment actually is.

lovin art
09-30-2012, 04:30 PM
I made some cobalt violet one time, here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=931993).


Sid that is very cool ... I'm so wanting to try this ...mixing some I mean ...:D

Byt , I think this is a informative thread and I'm enjoying reading this loads:/) ....I personally myself , -like Sid says don't have a prob using t white ..... I mean come on its white , it's the main staple in a oil painters food of tools is it not !! that and earth hues ... :)

!becca
09-30-2012, 04:45 PM
Me either, Sandra, it brightens my canvas..:)
Right now I'm loving my maimeri puro titanium white...one issue with it is the oil separates in the tube..So the first squeeze yields a lot of oil...have tried storing cap down and it still happens..but the white is amazing. The only pigment noted is PW6..so I am guessing no Zinc..I can't read Italian all that well. It is in safflower oil

(loved the cobalt violet the first time I saw it..still looks amazing, I just mostly want to paint with it.)

Trond
09-30-2012, 06:44 PM
Me either, Sandra, it brightens my canvas..:)
Right now I'm loving my maimeri puro titanium white...one issue with it is the oil separates in the tube..So the first squeeze yields a lot of oil...have tried storing cap down and it still happens..but the white is amazing. The only pigment noted is PW6..so I am guessing no Zinc..I can't read Italian all that well. It is in safflower oil

(loved the cobalt violet the first time I saw it..still looks amazing, I just mostly want to paint with it.)How is the drying time on that one Becca? Does it dry very slowly?

!becca
09-30-2012, 06:47 PM
Trond, no it dries to the touch more quickly than WN titanium white...I do use a medium of stand oil, damar, and turp but relatively I can say it's drying isn't prolonged...And I have noticed it goes through stages in curing, takes at least a couple weeks for it's full brilliance to be evident...and it is brilliant.

Gigalot
10-01-2012, 10:10 AM
(loved the cobalt violet the first time I saw it
Skin tone on my girl`s portrait is Cobalt Violet + Yellow Ocher. No Cad`s there!
Also, pink color on Nymphaea flower is Cobalt Violet too. I do not use alizarin. I like cobalt +white or cobalt+Cadmium red+white! :D

(One Cobalt Violet form is deep, just the same color like Sid`s selfmade paint, while the second has bright pink color, great to mix with white!)

Corfix's PO20 looks so beautiful, Mythrill!

!becca
10-01-2012, 10:15 AM
I have painted portraits with the violet/yellow palette..had heard of Lipking doing this..though I'm not sure he is using cobalt violet...from his video, my guess he is using a mix of aliz, ultra, and white.:D

(One Cobalt Violet form is deep, just the same color like Sid`s selfmade paint, while the second has bright pink color, great to mix with white!) yes, I have both..:D all I need is a sample of Sid's now..;)

Gigalot
10-01-2012, 10:28 AM
my guess he is using a mix of aliz, ultra, and white.:D

yes, I have both..:D all I need is a sample of Sid's now..;)

It can easily replace aliz in flesh tone mixing. Thus it is much more lightfast..:thumbsup: Williamsburg has a great version of this cobalt. Yeah it is an expensive but unbeatable thing!

I found interesting information about third version of a very pink cobalt violet:
http://www.soli.ru/documents/prod_48.pdf

!becca
10-01-2012, 10:40 AM
Why not use a different violet that is less expensive? I do...not that I don't love cobalt violet, but it does have fairly weak tinting strength.

As for aliz, some of the best artists I know of today seem to have it on their palette, if they aren't worried about it, I really shouldn't be....

Gigalot
10-01-2012, 10:55 AM
Why not use a different violet that is less expensive? I do...not that I don't love cobalt violet, but it does have fairly weak tinting strength.

As for aliz, some of the best artists I know of today seem to have it on their palette, if they aren't worried about it, I really shouldn't be....

Yes, I am Agree. Some people worry about lightfastness but I passed PR122 Quin Magenta test and it show a great result after 3 years on sun light. I guess, it is goog for everybody :D And it is at least as good as Phthalo is. Therefore, artist`s who use Phathalo blue:D a lot, have no reason to ignore PR122!

!becca
10-01-2012, 10:56 AM
Therefore, artist`s who use Phathalo blue a lot have no reason to ignore PR122!
;)
A valid observation.