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surreal
04-24-2003, 12:41 PM
Hi~
A very kind member of WC alerted me about a copyright infringement that occurred on ebay.

Here is the auction listing. You may recognize my tree.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20136&item=3510247309

The woman who listed both trees said they are originals.
I hesitate to call her an artist.

I have alerted ebay about this.

al22
04-24-2003, 12:44 PM
WOW!! Now that would p*** me off...........pardon language........
...........al

white-anubis
04-24-2003, 12:45 PM
Grrrr. Hope they find it hard to sleep at night. I hope ebay does something about it.

hopefulbucky
04-24-2003, 12:48 PM
:(

That is really tough 'surreal'. I would imagine E-bay would be hard pressed to do something about it other than remove the offending person's listing and barring that person.

I work in a patent, trademark and copyright office and copyright infringement sometimes is difficult to prove and also very expensive, attorney fees, etc. Also I suppose if they alter the work in any way then I suppose they can say it is not copyright infringement. Tough!:rolleyes:

About the only thing one can do is being what Al said p.....d off.

So sorry for you.

babybrush
04-24-2003, 12:49 PM
i looked through some of her other stuff that she had sold and none of it looked at all alike. there was no consistancy. that seems wierd to me. i wonder if she actually paints anything or just rips people off.

is that tree a painting you sold? how could she get it to sell or did she copy it?

Bethany

Luzie
04-24-2003, 12:50 PM
Sorry to see that Nina!
wonder how many others she has copied and sold, if you look at previous auctions...all of the styles/paintings are absolutely different, doubt they are all from one person.

lyn lynch
04-24-2003, 12:50 PM
How could this be? Certainly yours are better, but the similarity is startling. You just did this work, correct? Do you know this person who advertised them? Oh, Dios! This is terrible, how this person saw your work to emulate it must be plugged. Do you have website which you put this work?

mchew
04-24-2003, 01:04 PM
Holy Sh*t.... (pardon my language) but that's my first reaction.
Nina, this is down right copying.... I could tell your works miles away...

I feel so sorry for you.... Hope you could do something to warn her...

If you haven't read this... please do (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37428)

Elankat
04-24-2003, 01:06 PM
I find it interesting that for an artist who has won so many awards and is "published" that a google search turns up nothing except winning a dog show.

I hope ebay yanks the auction and boots her. Sorry it happened to you, Nina. You know I love your work. :)

karenboss
04-24-2003, 01:29 PM
OMG! that painting is so obviously your style! ok... I'm going to e-mail her some questions about her other work

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20136&item=3515121235

this one... really? orginial watercolor? I've never seen an effect like that in water color....

the bi*ch!

Faafil
04-24-2003, 01:36 PM
not only are the styles all completely different, but previous 'originals' that she's sold, are currently available, and also available in larger sizes..... how can that be ?? they are identical... unless they are prints... who would go to all the trouble of duplicating paintings in the $25 - $50 price range ??? if you look closely, the signatures are different too...

mchew
04-24-2003, 01:37 PM
and compare that with this...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20136&item=3515290127

All the paintings listed are so much difference in style... and she has the guts to call it "professional watercolor paper" when you can clearly see the wrinkles... looks more like rice paper to me.:mad: :mad:

Luzie
04-24-2003, 01:46 PM
Now I'm wondering and hopefully someone can answer this:

To post work on WC:

is it risky because it might get stolen?

or a good thing because you have proof (date of post) at what time you created your work...?

:confused:

babybrush
04-24-2003, 01:48 PM
what i want to know is how does she get all that positive feedback from her buyers if she is such a fraud and why is she doing this if she isn't actually selling these to those poor saps. i don't understand the motivation or how she expects to make it work. it makes no sense

Bethany

Sandy1
04-24-2003, 01:49 PM
That is awful. Sorry to hear about this.

karenboss
04-24-2003, 01:49 PM
I've been checking the signatures from one painting to the next... http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Apr-2003/4697-example4.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Apr-2003/4697-example3.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Apr-2003/4697-example2.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Apr-2003/4697-example6.jpg

I can't read them... but I can tell they are different!

indigobluetwo
04-24-2003, 01:55 PM
That is terrible.

All the paintings do look so different in style.

The "Winter" painting is signed but it doesn't look like her name. I can't make it out though.

Kristy

mchew
04-24-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Luzie
Now I'm wondering and hopefully someone can answer this:

To post work on WC:

is it risky because it might get stolen?

or a good thing because you have proof (date of post) at what time you created your work...?

:confused:


I don't know if it's a good or bad thing... but I believe prevention is better than cure.

I got a solution (although it's nothing new and I've seen people doing it)... you can create a logo or watermark of your own and paste this little watermark on the bottom right hand corner of your images.... by doing that, you can always recognise your images... and to deter someone else from stealing them from WC! or any other internet sites.

karenboss
04-24-2003, 02:09 PM
I don't think she's painting these. Copy work, IMHO is never as good as the original, so the risk is really mimimal. Do you think I could take one of Marvins paintings and copy the composition, color, technique & get ANYthing like his??? no way. IF I could, then I could certainly come up with my own, right?

Technically, she never claims to be the artist of these peices. She says she IS an artist and she claims that they are originals. She is not in the self-representing artist catagory. Nina, is it possible that your peice got into her hands for less than she's asking?

karenjh
04-24-2003, 02:28 PM
I think at the very least I would have to contact this person and tell her that she is in copyright violation or something. She needs to know that she has been found out! But then again, that is me and I am a hot head and usually speak before thinking. You must be so frustrated and mad. Your work is unlike any I've ever seen and I find it amazing that this person would try this at all, let alone with your work.

Luzie
04-24-2003, 02:28 PM
So she might just be re-selling these, Nina do you know where the original ended up?

mchew, the watermark would only be in the corner...unless it's all over the image, 99% can still be copied..., if the watermark is covering the whole image you can't see the painting anymore..

:(

artman42
04-24-2003, 02:45 PM
Have a Question , How do u Watermark your work and Thats a Terrible thing Nina, Anyone does that S.. exuse my Language as well, i have to be careful myself.

mchew
04-24-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Luzie
So she might just be re-selling these, Nina do you know where the original ended up?

mchew, the watermark would only be in the corner...unless it's all over the image, 99% can still be copied..., if the watermark is covering the whole image you can't see the painting anymore..

:(


hmmm... you got a point there... but if there's a watermark there... these people will have to crop at least a sizable section of the bottom part of the painting... not just the corner.

Jim... you can use photoshop or any graphic software and design your own logo...I think there's a watermark function in photoshop but I'm still learning how to use it.....once you have the watermark/logo, cut and paste it to the bottom right hand corner of your painting images...

surreal
04-24-2003, 03:09 PM
Hi Everyone,

Thanks so much for your compassion and the information you provided me with.

I contacted ebay again, this time sending the info to the correct contact group.

I do not know the ebay seller's email address, or else I would send her a "cease and desist" letter.

The only way to find out an ebay seller's email address is to place a bid on an item, I believe. I only learn about ebay buyers' email addresses after they place a bid on one of my paintings.

Anyway, I just contacted Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts, and a law student at Columbia University (very prestigious institution) is working on my problem.

Thanks so much.
I will let you know how all of this works out.

:)

P.S. - I feel uptight about posting more images of my work.
This painting of a tree has not been sold.

I like the "watermark" idea. Thanks, Marvin.
Thanks Marvin, for the link to the other WC thread.
I may later ask you for an easy way to place a watermark on a painting in cyberspace.

al22
04-24-2003, 03:16 PM
If the Num Lock is on ......hold the 'alt' key down and type in 0169 on the number pad then let go of the 'alt' key.........you should have something like this..........© You can then add the year if you like.........
©2003.........then copy/paste this onto your picture.........

......................al

mchew
04-24-2003, 03:21 PM
Nina, I'm not too sure about how to use watermark myself... I just saw some people using it... eBay has a watermark which read IPIX.

But what I do know is to design a simple logo and attach (copy and paste) onto the bottom right corner. I'll do a simple one and post it here later.

mchew
04-24-2003, 03:35 PM
Using Logo example:
logo designed digitally using photoshop and resize it to about 60x60 pixels... select all... copy and paste to your painting image.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Apr-2003/14541-Pulau_Ubin_Village_(9.5x_12).jpg

MALARKEY
04-24-2003, 04:02 PM
hey surreal, I went looking at all she has on Ebay and she has this line on most of her auctions:

These are 2 original watercolors (the are NOT a print)created with high quality materials Winsor& Newton on acid free, professional watercolor paper,9-12 in, signed, unframed, unmatted. The price is 24.99 $ for each painting; they are available together or separately.

Isn't that breaking some sort of rule? selling 2 from one auction since it's not all for 1 price?
Sandy

M.A.
04-24-2003, 04:11 PM
Oh Nina, I am so sorry to hear this has happened to you! I don't understand why someone would do such a thing!!! It's not even a copy of your style ... it is *your painting* ... how did she get her hands on it? Did she buy it from one of your auctions? Too weird. Good luck on this. I think she does a major disservice to eBay and they'll be just as upset over this as you are.

lyn lynch
04-24-2003, 04:19 PM
WARNING: THIS IMAGE PIRATED FROM EBAY USER THIS DISCUSSION INVOLVES. IF ANYONE HAS A PROBLEM W/ME DOING THIS, PLEASE PM TO ME, RATHER THAN INVOLVE THE GROUP, OK? NO FIGHTING, WE PLAY NICE.

Marvin intrigued me w/mention of wrinkles--my painting subject. So I look at the reference noted above and pasted below. Ain't no way this is watercolor paper; at best, this is rice paper as Marvin suggested; it looks like it got caught in the printer. I'm wondering if these are glacee prints. I have a friend who does beautiful original oils, but for craft fairs she prints her own work on some type of photo image paper and gets a lovely work, which conveys the oil feel--she sells them for $2.00 and clearly states what they are.

I do not see a signature on this, just the water-mark:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Apr-2003/16729-DianaRed8_1.jpg

Angela, this person stole your concept. No way she has your original and is re-marketing it as her own work. Yours is much better than what she is representing. Also I see she is new to eBay joining on 18 Jan 2003 and has no about me page.

Faafil
04-24-2003, 04:27 PM
fookie, this is one of the 'originals' that previously sold... and is currently up for auction again, and also listed as available in a larger size.... :confused:

fwiw, I sent an "ask the seller a question" on the chickens, and asked who the artist is....will be interesting to see if I get a response....

Elankat
04-24-2003, 04:28 PM
Nina,

You can get her email by clicking on the ebay name. You'll have to sign in and then you can get her email and contact information. It will send her a notification that you requested it though. Ebay does that so she knows that her info has been given out.

Faafil
04-24-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by MALARKEY


Isn't that breaking some sort of rule? selling 2 from one auction since it's not all for 1 price?
Sandy

think you got a valid point there Mal....

Islander
04-24-2003, 05:49 PM
There certainly seems a remarkable coincidence of style and subject matter. The whole affair must be most upsetting for you as the other"artist" is selling in oposition to you on e-bay. There almost is certainly very little action you can take. The problem with abstract work is that it is so easy to copy. If I was to fill a sheet of paper with a varied red wash, could the estate of Mark Rothko sue me, I doubt it; but if I passed it off as a work by Mark Rothko I would would certainly be in breach. There was the famous case here in the the UK a several years ago when the winner of £1,500 Leed's Castle Landscape Competition won with what appeared to be a copy of John Nash's The Cornfield in the collection of the Tate Modern. The owners of the copyright the Medici Society were imperturbed stating "Since all the sons of Bruegel ther's been a tradition of this sort of thing. If it doesn't say by John Nash it's fine by us. The more fool anyone who falls for it."
That puts it in a nutshell should this artist sell the copies as painted by Nina I think there could be a strong case as she has infringed your right to the authorship of the work and as such deprived you of income.
A small point to ponder I doubt very much that copies of that beautiful watercolour of the cottage in the New Forest viewed on WC not long ago will appear on e-bay.

Elankat
04-24-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Islander
There certainly seems a remarkable coincidence of style and subject matter. The whole affair must be most upsetting for you as the other"artist" is selling in oposition to you on e-bay. There almost is certainly very little action you can take. The problem with abstract work is that it is so easy to copy. If I was to fill a sheet of paper with a varied red wash, could the estate of Mark Rothko sue me, I doubt it; but if I passed it off as a work by Mark Rothko I would would certainly be in breach.

First of all, it's more than a remarkable coincidence. Just look at the first image on Nina's website and you can see that it is an exact copy.

Second, the link in my sig is a direct link to the U.S. Office of Copyright. It's very clear that this is a violation and Nina is well within her rights to take legal action, regardless as to whether the work is represented as hers or not as hers.

Faafil
04-24-2003, 06:16 PM
Nina - I got a reply from the seller - sent you a PM.... (btw, she is not claiming to be the artist on the chickens painting)

Ivyleaf
04-24-2003, 06:18 PM
OMG Surreal, I'm so so so very sorry to hear about this!

I would know your work anywhere. Your trees are unlike anything I have ever seen before.

I hope this seller gets banned. There is no room for people like that.

*****huge hugs*****

Ivy

P.S. Here is where I saw this painting on WC! for the first time...Tree~ (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88622)

surreal
04-24-2003, 06:29 PM
Hi Everyone,
Thanks so much for being so supportive and for providing needed information!!!

I also posted about this issue in the Art Business forum:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1153927#post1153927

In addition to other useful info, I learned that this buyer (thief) can be reported for "fee avoidance" in addition to copyright infringement. If anyone cares to report her, I will be extremely delighted. :D Rita Monaco discusses this in her post on the Art Bus. forum.

I have learned alot about copyright today.
The best protection against copyright infringement is to have one's artwork registered, which costs $30.00 per work of art. On the link that LeAnne provides, one can learn about registration of artwork, no doubt.

:)

Islander
04-24-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Elankat


First of all, it's more than a remarkable coincidence. Just look at the first image on Nina's website and you can see that it is an exact copy.

Second, the link in my sig is a direct link to the U.S. Office of Copyright. It's very clear that this is a violation and Nina is well within her rights to take legal action, regardless as to whether the work is represented as hers or not as hers.

Of course she is within her rights, but I for one would not encourage her to do so unless her paintings sell for large amounts of money. It is unfair to encourage her to so when the losses from this type of action can be enormous. I was merely pointing out the situation with a large amount of prize money and a wealthy copyright owner, as a useful real life situation of alleged infringement.

M.A.
04-24-2003, 06:38 PM
Nina, I'm happy you are getting this matter resolved

... about copyrighting your work *legally* ... I think you can do a body of work as well, not necessarily just one at a time (but I am no expert - although I do own *legally copyrighted works on some things as I have paid the fees) at least in Canada you can and it costs $65 Cdn
{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}

lyn lynch
04-24-2003, 06:45 PM
I am so brain-dead, please, someone duct tape my fingers together to cease the reflexive action.

I thought we were discussing an adaptation of your current tiny head tree.
I even called you Angela.
This person, than, was actually your buyer?

*

CharM
04-24-2003, 07:00 PM
I was following this thread all afternoon at work... Firstly Nina, I'm appalled that such a thing has happened! Your work is beautiful, original and you do not deserve this!!!

I found it interesting that the Seller had more of the same "originals" for sale in varying sizes... I saved them to my hard drive and compared them as best I could... They certainly appear to be identical...

While our hearts go out to Nina, I also couldn't help thinking of the people who'd been suckered into this whole sham... They bought "original" watercolours... I suspect they have prints of some kind despite the fact that the Seller says they're not...

mallory
04-24-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by mchew
and compare that with this...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20136&item=3515290127

All the paintings listed are so much difference in style... and she has the guts to call it "professional watercolor paper" when you can clearly see the wrinkles... looks more like rice paper to me.:mad: :mad:

You didn't post the best part.....

This is an original watercolor (this is not a print)on acid free, professional watercolor paper,9-12 in, signed, unframed, unmatted. This painting is also available in a larger size for an additional cost.

Let me get this straight. She has what appears to be a square format painting, but is listed at 6" x 12" :confused: It is an original, but for a price she will paint the same painting again in a larger format :confused: Has the artworld passed me by or is "larger size" something you say about prints. :confused: :confused:

Very strange.

mallory

pencils4me
04-24-2003, 07:30 PM
Nina - I too am so sorry you or any of us should have to go thru this!

The only think I noticed that not only is her picture posted on ebay alot like Ninas --- it IS Ninas! Just look at Ninas on her website (the siggy) and look at the one one ebay. Same siggy. Well at least it looks it to me..

here what do you think?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Apr-2003/3694-surrealsiggy.jpg

hoping to see the outcome

TJ

Elankat
04-24-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by surreal
Hi Everyone,
[B]In addition to other useful info, I learned that this buyer (thief) can be reported for "fee avoidance" in addition to copyright infringement. If anyone cares to report her, I will be extremely delighted. :D :)

I already did that earlier today. :)

Ivyleaf
04-24-2003, 07:51 PM
I counted 9 or 10 auctions that this seller had posted that were "fee avoidance issues"...

Ebay *surely* has heard about it today several times over ;) .

I don't think it ever hurts to have lots of reports...

:D :D :D
Ivy

lspinella
04-24-2003, 07:56 PM
Nina.. I hope the B**** gets what she deserves. Its so blatant and I am just astounded that this has really happened..
I knew this kind of thing happens but seeing it happen to someone I know cyber-net wise is a whole different picture.

this sux..

Nitsa
04-24-2003, 09:36 PM
OMG!..How bloody annoying is that?
Your work is so unique, there can be no doubt that this is theft.......Hope you manage to sort her out!

Faafil
04-24-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Ivyleaf

I don't think it ever hurts to have lots of reports...

:D :D :D
Ivy

anyone notice that the chickens are now a painting of a singer ???? :confused: :D :D

M.A.
04-24-2003, 09:50 PM
I'm having a hard time believing that these auctions haven't been pulled yet! Has anyone contacted "live help" on eBay yet to discuss this? And if you really want to know what bothers me most about this is the time Nina's going to have to spend on this issue rather than work on her beautiful works of art! Argh!!!

Nina: *Don't let the turkeys get you down.*

Adrienne
04-24-2003, 10:34 PM
There seems to be some confusion about whether or not it is Nina's actual painting. I say, yes. It is apparently being reprinted on readily available art paper for inkjet printers. So it isn't an artist sitting down with a brush and making a copy -- rather, it is a thief downloading the low-rez image from the web, and then sitting down with a printer and pushing the print button. Over and over again.

Probably looks horrible in person compared to the original because of the low-resolution from the web. But it looks the same over the web, because it is, well, the web.

HAS ANYONE E-MAILED THE BUYER????????

I would think he would be mad as frell to know he'd been sold one of umpteen fake originals. And that it was stolen from the actual artist, without her knowledge.

Would e-Bay allow us all to e-mail him and point him to Nina's website? Or do you think he'd then proceed to download a bunch more jpeg's and get himself a whole collection of stolen Nina's?

People can be so ugly.

Because my actual thoughts are unprintable, I'll end here.

Adrienne
04-24-2003, 10:40 PM
Criminey, I just checked out the thumbnails of the thief's auctions:

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=diana2507red&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

I am absolutely sure I recognize the bottom one, but I don't know from where.

Anyone??????????????????

eelfish1
04-24-2003, 11:35 PM
This is truly disgusting. All of the artwork on ebay looks totally nonrelated and I am sure it is.

What is "fee avoidance" btw?

Good luck Nina and keep us posted! Have you contacted her that this is your painting and to desist and DIE!!!! ?

Dot

surreal
04-25-2003, 12:23 AM
Hi All,
Believe it or not, the same seller tried to sell 2 more of my paintings, in acrylic on canvas, on ebay.
I sold one of these paintings last year.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20136&item=3513790632

Arlene just found another painting of mine she tried to sell on ebay!
So, now that brings the total to 4 paintings of mine she has passed off as her own!!!

sbronsak
04-25-2003, 12:24 AM
Hello everyone,

It is truly ashame when someone copies another person's work for personal gain. A person guilty of such practice should indeed be held accountable...........should that truly be the case.

However.......one must be real careful accusing another individual of wrong doing and all the comments being made unless there is proof of copyright infringement. Those who are writing to ebay may be hurting an innocent individual and I have to ask, if that be the case.....how will THOSE people sleep at night.

Many people have similar styles and some can be very versitile in their methods. I too have looked over the paintings this lady has been auctioning. I do a great deal of studying various artists (particularly those authoring books and other how-to material) and if one were to compare styles, compositions and subject matter........there would be many accused of copyright infringement when indeed that is NOT the case.

Just something for all to think about as people are slinging accusations around and sending letters to ebay without definate proof.

Susan

surreal
04-25-2003, 12:38 AM
Susan,

I have proof of copyright infringement.

mchew
04-25-2003, 12:51 AM
Susan,

I understand your concern but I don't need a second look at the pic to convince me that this is definite Nina's very distinctive style... and the signatures proved that her work is stolen without her knowledge.... to me that's copyright infringment and NOT accusation.

sbronsak
04-25-2003, 12:51 AM
Nina,

I truly hope so and if this be the case.........I do sympathize with you and hope something can be done.

If there is not sufficient proof......you and others could truly be hurting another person who may honestly not be guilty of the accused crime.

Copyright is a very confusing issue which many do not understand. The laws are left open to interpretation in many areas that are not black and white with various rulings depending on who's hearing the case.

Good luck,
Susan

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 12:51 AM
Susan,

I understand what you are saying, but please understand, the first of the four paintings (and probably the other three as well, but I haven't checked) is THE tree. Not just sort of the same. Not just similar.

***NINA'S EXACT PAINTING***

***even down to the dot in the upper left corner,
***which may or may not be an artifact of the jpeg'ing
***process. (Nina can tell if it is, because she has the
***original of the painting, as well as the original of the
***photo of the painting, both at much higher resolutions
***than anything on the internet.)

In my book, this is theft.

eelfish1
04-25-2003, 01:03 AM
I noted that the person credited with the paintings (not the seller) is a Romanian. There are a lot of copied paintings coming out of Romania, I did not realize this but bought a few myself a few years ago for a very small price. I would suspect they think that they can now just make copies of them rather than actually repaint them.

If it were me, I would not hesitate to contact the seller and point out that these were my original paintings and that I was contacting ebay. It doesn't hurt to ask, does it? The evidence is certainly there! Otherwise the buyer willjust say, oh, I bought them from Romania and didn't know and jsut resold them"

Dot

sbronsak
04-25-2003, 01:06 AM
Hi Adrienne and Marvin,

Yes, I do understand what both of you are saying and again hope you all are correct in your accessment. If this woman on ebay has indeed committed this crime, she needs to be held accountable. On the other hand, until it's for sure this is the case, I do not believe it's right to be sending letters to ebay and people getting caught up in a forum thread slamming someone that might just be innocent.

You know.......it could be any one of you being accused of something like that simply because one of your paintings might look like someone's elses. That's all I'm trying to convey here.......that people need to be careful what they say which could hurt another until it's without a doubt that wrong-doing has been done.

I guess I still go by the old belief that people are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Right now......she just "looks" guilty.

LOL.......Anyway.......I didn't respond to stir a stink here. I just felt that people should take care in casting stones until the verdict has been reached of definate guilt.

Best regards,
Susan

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 01:20 AM
Nina,

Re: my previous message, above, if that upper-left dot is NOT present on the original painting or original photo, it may constitute proof that the thief deliberately visited your website in order to steal your painting.

In other words, we know the dot exists in the jpeg on your website. And we know the dot exists in the jpeg on the thief's auction site. (And you'd do well to right-click that image now, and download it to your hard drive now, before it is gone, to preserve the evidence.)

What only you know is whether the dot exists on the original painting, or if the only possible place that the thief's dot could have come from is by downloading your website jpeg.

ALSO, if you need a great screen capture utility that can capture the thief's entire web page, even if it extends below the height of your monitor, check out a fantastic program called "HyperSnap DX" which can auto-scroll and capture the entire long web page in one capture. It is well worth the price, can be bought and downloaded right away (or demo'd first) and is at:

http://www.hyperionics.com/

Of course, if you need to preserve an exact copy of the jpeg file that the thief has on e-bay, you need to right click it and download it, in addition to capturing a bitmap surface copy of the entire web page (which is all that a screen capture is).

Nine, if this is garbled or hard to understand please e-mail me at [email protected] and I'll try to explain better.

Best wishes.

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 01:26 AM
Susan points out: "You know.......it could be any one of you being accused of something like that simply because one of your paintings might look like someone's elses."

Susan,

They are EXACTLY the same. DOT FOR DOT.

sbronsak
04-25-2003, 01:37 AM
Hi Adrienne,

I am looking at that as well. Most definately doesn't look good for the lady on ebay.......that's for sure.

Has anyone who's been following this thread, who might be a registered user of ebay, written directly to the bidder explaining what might have transpired and requesting help for absolute proof? Nina may need to get in touch with that person to see if she can obtain what that person actually purchased. That may be her only true means of proof between her original and whatever the buyer actually receives.

I truly hope for Nina's sake that this can be resolved and soon. If the woman is truly selling other people's art as her own......she most definately needs to be stopped.

Best wishes,
Susan

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 01:43 AM
Susan,

Perhaps the people Nina contacted at {brain-drain} was it Columbia? {/brain-drain} have done this. They are probably well versed in knowing who to ask for what, in order to collect evidence and build a case. At least, that's what I'm hoping!!!

I've debated writing myself, but don't want to throw a monkeywrench into the help the lawyers will be giving. They have training and skills in obtaining evidence that far exceed mine, and I don't want to risk screwing things up for Nina.

Just a thought,

Adrienne

sbronsak
04-25-2003, 01:49 AM
Hi Adrienne,

LOL......off the subject here.......may I ask what "brain-drain" means? It showed up a couple of times in your response to me.

As for anything else being done that might hurt Nina's case.....you have a valid point there. I do wish her luck.

Big smile (I haven't figured out all these smilies and formatting here under WC.....not yet anyway)

Susan

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 01:52 AM
may I ask what "brain-drain" means?

Susan,

LOL -- it was my lame attempt at wit. I imitated html formatting to signify that I wasn't sure of the information between the beginning "brain-drain" and the ending one. In other words, I couldn't remember whether it was Columbia or somewhere else that was going to be helping Nina.

Sorry for the confusion :) Chalk it up to the late hour and my sleep deprived state :eek:

sbronsak
04-25-2003, 01:59 AM
Hi Adrienne,

I DO understand what you mean about late night and sleep deprived state. I suffer that too.....that's why I'm here......LOL. Sure beats listening to the news or reading some boring newspaper we might have here in this one-horse town.

Best regards,
Susan

P.S. Thanks for explaining that.......wish I could figure out these smilies.

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 02:06 AM
Sure beats listening to the news or reading some boring newspaper we might have here in this one-horse town.
Yeah, I'm sure with ya on this. Guess I'll pad off to sleep though now.

I hope I can actually get some rest and not just lay there and stew about the thief. Nina has contributed so much to Wet Canvas, and now to be taken advantage of this way is just beyond belief. It really stings, even though it isn't me, and I don't really know Nina very well. But she is present in a positive way for so many of us, from beginners to painters with many years of experience. Her words to all of us are always so encouraging, so forthright. For her to be stolen from this way disturbs and saddens me beyond my ability to express.

Well, thanks for keeping me company tonight Susan. I appreciate your sense of fairness and concern for correct justice.

Warm wishes,

Adrienne

Linarty
04-25-2003, 02:10 AM
I think there is one thing you can do to start with...buy one if you can...contact the winner maybe. I recall reading an article in either the artist magazine or american artist about the steps to take when your work is copied and the first thing to do is to get the copy. If you can do that it does't matter if your copyright isn't registered. You could then go to small claims court ( since the $ involved was under..whatever the limit is these days...$200 at least, and at the very least get a restraining order.
Good luck in nailing this creature.

Linda

Linarty
04-25-2003, 02:12 AM
Or even print out the page. Linda

Crystal Owl
04-25-2003, 09:04 AM
Nina,

So sorry to hear about this I sure hope you find some people to help you.

Irene

indigobluetwo
04-25-2003, 10:20 AM
If you are wanting to be on the safe side and put on a watermark over your images, you can do it in Photoshop. It is done by a filter by Digimarc (digimarc.com). Launch Photoshop's Help. Click on the Search tab. Type in "Watermark". It will give you instructions on what it is, what you need to know, and how to do it.

Not only does it leave a watermark but it also embeds digital copyright information.

Photostock houses do it.

I hope this helps someone.

Kristy

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 10:37 AM
I think the Digimarc idea is a good one, and I've done that with mine -- but just beware. Don't assume that this is the final answer and that you are safe. Unfortunately, as Digimarc watermarking has developed, crackers and hackers and thieves have developed filters to remove it.

Therefore, I would recommend that you do both things:

----> Digimarc your paintings (invisible in most cases)

*AND*

----> Put a visual notice over the top of your jpeg as
detailed by several, including Salairawns and Timelady
on the other thread.

Lady Carol
04-25-2003, 10:45 AM
Nina,
I have just caught this post. I am horrified that this has happened to you. I am so sorry and hope that you can get this sorted out.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

indigobluetwo
04-25-2003, 11:10 AM
Good point, Adrienne.

Unfortunately with something like this, if someone wants it bad enough, they will find a way.

Nina, I hope your problem will be resolved.

Kristy

surreal
04-25-2003, 12:48 PM
Hi Everyone,

Thanks so much for your wonderful supportiveness and sympathy and thanks to those of you who have communicated with this individual/thief seller on ebay.


Through ebay's VERO program, I am having the images of my artwork which were created by Diana removed.


I believe it was on the Watercolor Forum here, that someone mentioned that watermarks are now deciperable by hackers and do not provide enough protection against copyright infringement.

Therefore, I am going to develop a logo for myself to place on my image (if I ever learn how). In the meantime, I will overlay text on my images, like ©Nina Kuriloff 2003, for protection.

I suggest that everyone actively protect their images in cyberspace.

I have posted the painting of the horse on another e-group because I think the artist who painted it, is a member there.

We have to be as vigilant as possible.

For all we know, Diana, and others like her, have numerous user ids on ebay.

I will further update you with more info on my situation fairly soon.

Again, thanks to this wonderful community of artists here at Wetcanvas!!!

WC artists are the very best!!!!

I am sorry that I have been unable to read each and every post here, but I definitely will. I have scanned alot of posts.

This issue has been very time-consuming to deal with.
This week I was on "vacation" from my job.

Today, I would like to complete my latest painting of a tree. :)



:D

al22
04-25-2003, 01:07 PM
Glad things are working out Nina......
I think it brings to the foreground that as we surf places like ebay and other sites, we keep and eye out for just this type of cyber theft.
With 18k + eyes out there it surely will help........
..........al

Adrienne
04-25-2003, 01:16 PM
Nina writes: I believe it was on the Watercolor Forum here, that someone mentioned that watermarks are now deciperable by hackers and do not provide enough protection against copyright infringement.
Nina,

That was me BUT I URGE YOU TO STILL DO A DIGIMARC WATERMARK (in addition to a visual notice).

There are excellent reasons to do both.

One reason you SHOULD GO FORWARD with an invisible Digimarc protection is that it can be your eyes and ears on the internet. In other words, for a price (last I heard), it will search out and find stolen copies of your work on the internet. At the very least, carefully check out their website and see what the latest news is. (I haven't checked in quite some time.)

But, as mentioned, a few thieves can disable the watermark. That is where the visible one comes in, as outlined by Salairawns and Timelady on the other thread.

PLEASE CONSIDER DOING BOTH!!!

M.A.
04-25-2003, 03:24 PM
Today, I would like to complete my latest painting of a tree.
Good news! That's good news!!!

karenboss
04-25-2003, 03:50 PM
I'm playing with text overlays... is this sufficient?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Apr-2003/4697-threeofakindwc.jpg

Faafil
04-25-2003, 04:20 PM
I was playing with the text overlays too, because when i tried to do the digimarc from Photoshop, it took me to their website (Digimarc), and you have to pay for the subscription.... soooooo... since I'm not ready to shell out the $$$ to protect the images of my meager paintings yet.... the text overlay is the way to go for me....


ps - can't check eBay from work - they have it blocked - are the auctions still up there ?? just curious

james.bishop
04-25-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Faafil
anyone notice that the chickens are now a painting of a singer ???? :confused: :D :D
The "chickens" image is still visible via this link:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=diana2507red&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

This would appear to be very similar to a WC! posting: Gallo y Gallina, by Pakote, in the acrylics forum.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99706

I will PM Pakote to inform him.

surreal
04-25-2003, 11:37 PM
I want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread.
I appreciate all of your sympathetic comments, expressions of concern and pms.
:D
An Update:
I have taken all of the actions that I can take with the Seller, Diana.

My 2 Cease & Desist letters have scared her, it truly seems.
She has emailed me numerous times, assuring me she has destroyed my images and will never try to sell my images again.

I have had several conversations with a rep from Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts (here in N.Y.C.)

I have asked ebay to send me her address so that I can send a Cease & Desist letter to her home; however, Vol. Lawyers for the Arts assures me that I have a paper trail by virtue of the email messages I have sent and received from her.

One cannot sue a person for copyright infringement unless one's images have been registered. The cost of registration is $30.00 per work of art. I was encouraged to register my works of art.

That's about it.
I followed the advice of the rep from Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts, who thought my results were good.
I am glad that ebay pulled the auctions with my images on them.

I am not prepared to do more.
I am exhausted by it all.

Rose Queen
04-25-2003, 11:53 PM
Nina, I am so sorry this happened to you, but it sounds like you've made all the right moves. The copyright issue is one that's been hotly debated on a book list-serv I'm on and I thought you might find a couple of their posting of interest:

Saving money on copyright fees:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/bookarts/2003/04/msg00267.html

You can't get legal fees unless you record your copyright, but you can still sue:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/bookarts/2003/04/msg00249.html

Good rundown of the advantages of recording:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/bookarts/2003/04/msg00252.html

There are a bunch more postings on this subject, which generated much heat at the list-serv, so you may want to poke around in the archives if you find these three postings helpful.



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surreal
04-26-2003, 01:29 AM
Hi Rose,
Thanks so much for posting.
Thanks also for the links.
:D

Islander
04-26-2003, 05:02 AM
I am not prepared to do more.
I am exhausted by it all.

Very sensible decision Nina and one I'm glad you have taken. Without legal fee recovery you would have been exposed to quite large costs.

Copyright law is for the rich and powerful as most law is. I know to my cost from taking clients who owed me money to court the judgement just becomes a further bad debt. The offender having no recoverable assets. A situation you well may encountered with this lady.

Sorry for all the emotional upset this lady has caused you and I hope you now have drawn a line under the whole miserable affair and got back to what you enjoy most painting

karenjh
04-26-2003, 09:35 AM
Nina,

Congratulations for doing all that you did and with successful results. I am sure it was frustrating but you handled it extremely well.

madmum
04-27-2003, 05:02 PM
:eek: :mad: :crying:

I only just saw this and I am absolutely horrified!!!!! I am certainly going to start using the digimarc in my photoshop programme, and also look into creating a visible logo.

From what I've seen of her auctions, she is printing images on the watercolour printer paper regardless of whether the original is watercolour or not - not too bright, then!

Hope Ebay can do something to help the innocent victims of this *@#"!

Ruth