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Alachua Artist
04-17-2003, 01:10 PM
Are there any other gouache artists here?

I am baffled by how gouache is considered to be a watercolor medium. Is that because it thins with water? but so does acrylic and some water-based oils... and other mediums like clay! Those certainly are NOT watercolor. I recently entered into a heated discussion with a gallery owner over gouache being "just another watercolor."

It is even difficult to fine information on techniques in gouache... and the Spell Check doesn't even consider "gouache" a word!! Maybe I'm biased because I work primarily in this medium.

Any thoughts?

mchew
04-17-2003, 01:17 PM
I guess it's a norm that people associates watercolour as transparent watercolour since it's more widely used than gouache. I only started adding a few dabs of gouache on my transparent watercolour for highlights.

Check out Surreal... she does fantastic job with goauche.. I think Flattwo uses goauche once a while too.

This is a mixed media of watercolour and gouache I did as a tribute to Rosanna, a WC! member who passed away recently.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Apr-2003/14541-Tribute_to_Rosanna.JPG

imahappy
04-17-2003, 01:22 PM
This was part of one of the WetCanvas threads I just read earlier today that may help

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16184

Fagan
04-17-2003, 01:32 PM
Hello Wendy! Guoache is a water medium. Would like to see some of your work! *SMILE*

Aselka
04-17-2003, 01:39 PM
I consider gouache "just another watercolor" not because it thins with water, but because it has the same chemical make-up as transparent watercolor (same minerals, etc.), only mixed with chinese white. There are transparent watercolors and opaque ones. Guache is opaque. Actually transparency is relative term in this case. Some Cadmiums are pretty opaque and in thick layer they block paper completely.

Aselka

warter
04-17-2003, 01:45 PM
Here is what I understand about Gouache ;

Opaque watercolor.

Like water color it contains gum binder & ingredients like sugar &
glycerin to improve handling.
Unlike watercolor gouache has an added ingredient like chalk or
blanc fixe to make the paint opaque.

This should not be confused with Gouache Acrylic, which uses an
acrylic binder. When dry it is flat & becomes almost insoluble.

This is from " The Artists Illustrated Encyclopedia "

A very knowledgeable artist & teacher told you can add white to any watercolor resulting in an opaque color.

Hope this helps.

Rosemarie
04-17-2003, 02:15 PM
In Europe we say aquarelle, in several languages. Different spellings and pronunciations though. A straight translation of water colour in to Swedish would be vattenfärg and thats what we say about childrens cheap water colours.

Akvarell (swedish spelling) is transparent and opaque as we know the water colour paint.
Gouache is gouache and acrylic acrylic.

Maybe WC should have a gouche forum?

Alachua Artist
04-17-2003, 02:26 PM
What a relief to read all the replies... and so quickly! Thanks.

However it's spelled, and however it's pronounced, and whatever the chemical make-up, the way it handles and blends and velvety finish makes gouache the medium for my paintings (for now). And your suggestion for a gouache forum is applauded. I'd be in there for certain.

pampe
04-17-2003, 04:39 PM
that has been suggested for a couple years...but so far, not enough interest

I imagine that, now that you are here, and a few others...you may re-submit the request to scott and see what happens...love your work BTW!

wayfarer
04-17-2003, 06:07 PM
here, here! a gouache forum! I've been dabbling a bit too. I love Robert Dodd's work. Stunning!

wayfarer

NeilUnreal
04-21-2003, 03:58 PM
The opacity of gouache comes from a combination of opaquifiers and heavy pigment load. (I assume the extra pigment load is what makes it so expensive! :mad:)

I'd also like to see a gouache forum, as I am very interested in this medium. I started using it to do opaque retouching on airbrushed watercolors and colored pencils, but now I'm interested in it as a primary medium. I like the reworkability, the fast drying, and the ability to work in various consistencies. Also, the dried surface has enough tooth allow subsequent work with colored pencil.

To find out whether I like it enough to buy a whole set, I'm doing a small grisaille of John Brown's face from John Steuart Curry's "The Tragic Prelude."

-Neil

E-J
04-30-2003, 06:10 AM
I dabbled in gouache a year ago for this one. It was only my 2nd 'live' still life setup in any medium, so it's no great work of art, but I did enjoy the gouache and will certainly use it again.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Apr-2003/13865-gouache.jpg

The thing I find strange about this medium is that it dries to such a chalky appearance... or, yes, 'velvety' if you're using it more effectively than me :D I'd like to learn how to keep the colours looking fresher ~ by mixing in the white a little more judiciously, perhaps? Would be happy to see more works in gouache around WetCanvas! and to learn what others are doing with the medium.

Over in Pastels we're seeing oil pastels become more popular and respected, and the shift is noticeable even in the couple of months that I've been hanging out there, as artists using o.p's share what they're doing and others discover that beautiful paintings can be made in this medium. There's now even a 'sticky' thread with oil pastel info for newbies: perhaps you could start something similar in the Watercolour forum especially for gouache?

Oil pastels are seen by some as a poor relation to soft pastels, which in turn are sometimes unfairly considered to be inferior to oils, etc... What a load of twaddle. Who cares about some imaginary hierarchy of the binding in your painting media? I would love to see some of your work! :)

lyn lynch
04-30-2003, 11:55 AM
I am a beginner in watercolor medium so take my comment with a grain of salt.

I do not consider gouache as watercolor. The reason is because lights can be created over darks; I consider the medium in the acrylic category, or a category unto itself. But, not as part of watercolor.

Under Community button there is a topic called Site Suggestions, if you want to ask Scottb for a new category. Likely a thread would already be found if you use the search button.

white-anubis
04-30-2003, 11:56 AM
I work primarily with gouache because it's thicker and for me esaier to control. Though lately, I've been trying more regular watercolor. As far as I can tell, gouache is just really thick, concentrated watercolor. Kind of like the different viscosities in acrylics, I guess. I know you can get fine detail with regular watercolor, but I don't have to work as hard with gouache.<P></P>http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Apr-2003/14705-satan.jpg

NeilUnreal
04-30-2003, 03:10 PM
Based on my experiments, I decided to get a set of Holbein artist's gouache. I'm looking forward to doing something over the coming weekend.

-Neil

Islander
04-30-2003, 04:26 PM
Below is an answer of mine to a similar thread.

Using gouache successfully is a very difficult art harder than transparent colours, although in the hands of a master such as Frenchman Galien Laloue (active late 1800's) the results are stunning. Many of his gouaches are to be found on the web. A contemporary artist who produces beautiful still life and floral paintings in gouache is Pamela Kay. Gouache is a medium which can achieve amazing results, though unfortunately beyond my limited powers.

Alachua Artist
10-31-2003, 06:06 PM
The paintings I do are rather involved... the back of the rice paper is painted as well. Here is an example of my work. I have a series of children, also women and crows. I've started a new series of trees that I have posted in the Old West II projects... if you'd like to take a look.

And just how do we submit a request for a forum on gouache? All the other mediums are available... time for us!!

Islander
11-01-2003, 06:31 AM
Wendy, Your work looks beautiful would like to hear more on how you do it.

jackiesimmonds
11-02-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by fookie

I do not consider gouache as watercolor. The reason is because lights can be created over darks; I consider the medium in the acrylic category, or a category unto itself. But, not as part of watercolor.


Most of the professional watercolour societies -The Royal Institute of Watercolour Painters in the UK and the equivalent in the USA - will now accept, for their exhibitions, works done in any water-based medium, so this includes watercolour, gouache, acrylics, acrylic inks, tempera, and watercolour+any other mixed media.

Provided the finished work is mainly achieved with a water-based medium, it is accepted.

Therefore, although there may be those who do not consider a gouache painting AS a watercolour, it will still fall into that general category, as far as the professional institutions are concerned.

There is plenty of historical precedent. Turner, for example, often used gouache, on a coloured ground - and these are generally referred to as "Turner's watercolours" !!!

There are many, many wonderful contemporary artists working today, artists who call themselves watercolourists, but these are artists who like to explore new territory, and find innovative ways of using watermedia. Their exciting works can be found alongside more traditional watercolourists' works, in major exhibitions.

sisangel
11-02-2003, 11:42 AM
Jackie,
It's nice to see you here in the watercolor forum. Thank you for coming by.

Thanks for the information on gouache as in the watercolor category. Now I feel like I can get out my gouche and play without feeling like I am cheating.

Bonnie G

Flattwo
11-02-2003, 11:50 AM
Hi

I like Gouache, I use it on occassion, there is a nice recent gouache landscape by Mairi Aitkin on this link

http://www.gla.ac.uk:443/newsdesk/events/artauction/lots.cfm

Regards

Flattwo

jackiesimmonds
11-02-2003, 12:14 PM
Bonnie - OF COURSE you aren't cheating! Perish the thought! Anyway, there is no such thing in painting ... unless you produce something and sign it Cezanne and sell it, of course.

I am writing a book, right now, on the innovative use of watermedia ... hence my hanging around the watercolour forum, and my defense of all the various "new"er forms of watercolour!

Jackie

gnu
11-03-2003, 03:08 AM
QUestion..can you use a sealant/fixative on a completed gaoche painting ? or is it treated like watercolour? needs to be matted, frames etc..
I have a brand new unopened set(sat here for a year!!)..I'm just gonna have to try it..my main mediums are acrylic and coloured pencil...this could be interesting..I guess canvas is not a suitable ground though, unless it's framed...
By the way...if you want to suggest new ideas/forums you post a thread in the WC Site discussion form...:)

Alachua Artist
11-03-2003, 04:10 PM
Gnu;
I bought a varnish specifically for gouache so I would not have to put my paintings under glass. Given the water-soluable nature of gouache, it MUST be protected. So I took a scrap of the rice paper that I use, painted an image on it, and when it was dry, applied the matte varnish. It worked wonderfully!

So I finished a major painting, and applied the matte varnish. OHHOLYCHIT the varnish turned a milky white and clouded the painting.

Oh there were many bad words said over this result. I contacted the mfg... no help. I didn't know how to remove the varnish without disturbing the gouche paint. So in the process of trying to remove the varnish, it burnished into a nice gloss. Not the effect I had in mind, but the painting is salvaged. :::sigh:::

I will NEVER attempt that again.

gnu
11-03-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Alachua Artist
Gnu;
I bought a varnish specifically for gouache so I would not have to put my paintings under glass. Given the water-soluable nature of gouache, it MUST be protected. So I took a scrap of the rice paper that I use, painted an image on it, and when it was dry, applied the matte varnish. It worked wonderfully!

So I finished a major painting, and applied the matte varnish. OHHOLYCHIT the varnish turned a milky white and clouded the painting.

Oh there were many bad words said over this result. I contacted the mfg... no help. I didn't know how to remove the varnish without disturbing the gouche paint. So in the process of trying to remove the varnish, it burnished into a nice gloss. Not the effect I had in mind, but the painting is salvaged. :::sigh:::

I will NEVER attempt that again.
:eek: :eek: ooooh I will never try it either then..unless I want to perfect such a technique..but I'd do a trial one first!!thanks for the words of wisdom.... I guess I'll think of it as watercolour as far as presentation goes..
look forward to seeing more of you round WC!!
:cat:

salmon
11-05-2003, 04:19 PM
I have written about my use of gouache in length in the past.
If you do a search for some of my old postings and look for one called "Oh my gouache!" it may help you. I like gouache but I'm back on the watercolours at the moment.

Tammy Marie
11-06-2003, 10:33 PM
I think that it is a popular misconception that gouache is simply watercolor mixed with white but if you look at the composition tables by the manufacturers you will see that it is not. An example is http://www.winsornewton.com/cp11.pdf. You will see that white is only added when a pastel color is desired. Even Winsor Blue, which is definitely transparent as a watercolor, has no other pigment added to it and it is opaque as a gouache. Gouache has a much higher pigment load than watercolor and a different ratio of binder to pigment.

I don't think of it as a watercolor, I think of it as gouache, but I do think of it as "water media", and as has been pointed out so is acrylic paint, just that the binder is acrylic, not gum arabic.

The lovely example posted by Walerian highlights for me what the main difference between watercolor and gouache is from a painters point of view (outside of the obvious opacity difference): with watercolor, all of the lights have to come from the paper itself, with gouache the lights come from the paint. This will in itself cause each medium to be approached and used in entirely different ways. I actually think that the technique would have more similarities to oil painting than to watercolor painting.

Wendy, I can understand your frustration, but the mom in me just has to say this. There is a big opportunity for you here to educate ignorant gallery owners in a professional manner and build your reputation as one who really knows her art and I would hate for you to miss it.

Just my two cents worth.

jaytee
11-08-2003, 05:50 AM
I just re-read this after seeing your post in Site discussions re new forum..............( ive commented there too :))

just had to put pennyworth in here

I actually think that the technique would have more similarities to oil painting than to watercolor painting.


Its a year or two since i painted with gouach. even longer since I abandoned oils but had to point out for anyone thinking of trying gouache.......its COMPLETELY different from oils, inasmuch as if youre not very careful you can completely lift off the previous dry layers of paint you have applied and if you apply the gouache too thickly it can crack when it drys.

I 'varnished ' as small piece I did way back using neat gum arabic and it made it look exactly like an oil. .....took away the matt finish completely ..............

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2003/4661-wcFrenchLunch.jpg

quite different effect from 'unvarnished' gouache like this posted in Still Life back in 2002
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2003/4661-wcMarysRoom.jpg

wayfarer
11-08-2003, 08:35 AM
I have used acrylic matte medium mixed with gouache to prevent some lifting. YOu do need to be careful and not add too much though.

Chris

sisangel
11-08-2003, 10:48 AM
I am working on my first gouache painting now. Questions is, for my whites do I leave my white areas unpainted (the only white is on the largest flower) or do I use white gouache? I guess it would make a big difference in how it looks.


Gouache is fun to try. Lots of fun color and not at all like working with watercolor. But I do have to plan very well in advance how to use the color and making my drawing exact does help.

Bonnie G

painterbear
11-08-2003, 11:19 AM
I think it would be fun to have a Gouache Forum too, but if Scott doesn't think there is enough interest yet, what about a Gouache Sub-Forum here within the Watercolor Forum—or would those who paint gouache think that would be somehow insulting to be classed with the watercolorists?

Tammy Marie
11-08-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by jaytee
Its a year or two since i painted with gouach. even longer since I abandoned oils but had to point out for anyone thinking of trying gouache.......its COMPLETELY different from oils, inasmuch as if youre not very careful you can completely lift off the previous dry layers of paint you have applied and if you apply the gouache too thickly it can crack when it drys.[/IMG]

Jaytee,
Good point. I didn't consider that. Wow there is quite a difference between your two paintings. (I like them both BTY.) The top one does look like it could be oil and the bottom one looks like it could be pastel. I used to think that gouache was a really limited medium but I see from your examples that I was wrong!

Tam

Alachua Artist
11-10-2003, 05:27 PM
I am soooo glad to see all my fellow gouache painters, both past and present. I have tried... several times... to cajole, coerce, plead, beg, and short of throwing a grand-mal temper tantrum, convince the powers-that-be that gouache is NOT just another water-color medium. I have failed. :crying:

But all is not lost. We are here, and can write and paint and submit and critique to our hearts content. :D

And maybe even start a project!! (I suppose I'll be the designated project leader)

Bonnie: as for white areas... I paint them white with white gouache. Sometimes the under-painting comes through, but usually that is part of the effect I want. If you take a look at my website, you'll see the effects I'm talking about.

Thanks for supporting this thread!