Odourless Thinners?

[kieran]

I was wondering if there are any alternatives to low odour thinners on the market? I use white spirits to clean my brushes when painting with oils, but the smell they leave throughout my home is unpleasant and my wife is not happy about it!!! I went to buy some odourless thinners yesterday and was shocked at how much it cost compared to white spirit. Any suggestions?
Kieran

[rhoward]

Odorless mineral spirits are available in bulk at any store catering to housepainters. It's identical to Turpenoid, Adenoid and all the other '-oids. A gallon of it is cheap enough.

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[357 Mag]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. The so-called odorless thinners that you buy at hardware stores or paint centers are not odorless!!!!! They stink terrible. A true odorless paint thinner is put out by SunnySide and might be available at your local art store. It is also inexpensive. Also consider a product called Aquasol. I just ordered 2 gallons of the stuff. It is a water-based cleaner instead of petroleum based and I think it will make cleanup after using those old-fashioned out-dated oils much easier. And of course it is non-toxic. You can get that from Dick Blick or Jerry's for about 21 dollars a gallon.

[beauxman]

OMS runs about $4.00/gal. Did you say that Sunnyside stuff is cheap?! Try keeping a lid on it till you need to clean up, that should do it, or take your brushes outside to clean them.

[357 Mag]

The odorless stuff found in hardware stores ain't worth any money since it stinks. Sunnyside is about 3 some dollars for a quart I think. Also Turpenoid is one of the best true odorless solvents, but it is about the same cost for a gallon as Aquasol. 21 dollars.

[beauxman]

Mag, twenty one bucks a gallon for brush cleaner? No wonder you can't afford decent paint. Drive a wreck, live in a mansion. Why scrimp on something thats gonna be with you everyday(your paintings) only to toss big money at cleaners? FYI, the following palette of colors will run you about $55.00 for OH:
Ultra. blue $6.60
thalo. blue $6.6o
OH yellow light $6.60
yellow ochre $6.60
OH Red light $6.60
Alizarin crimson (this is the big $$ paint in
line-up at 14.50)
white $6.60
For a little more than you've spent on two gallons of solvent, you can buy good paint, then you can make a picture, then you can sell it, then you can buy more paint...

[blondheim12]

Mag,
A word of warning on Aquasol. It eats the bristles on your brushes very quickly.
Linda

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www.lindablondheim.com (http://www.lindablondheim.com)

[TPS]

I'm here to tell you that odorless thinner IS available at a reasonable price, and does NOT stink badly. I'd also like to know where beauxman gets his Old Holland paints because his prices are way lower than Jerry's which is general the lowest price I can find. My typical set of 8 colors would run $126; a far cry from $55.

[357 Mag]

The reason Turpenoid and Aquasol are more expensive is that they are more refined. The smelly stuff you buy at hardware stores isn't put through the refinement, hence it still smells and is cheap.

I doubt whether you can get Old Holland for those prices, and the Jerry's catalog is about the cheapest I've seen so far.

I stopped buying expensive Grumbacher and DaVinci since I was doing a lot of scraping and starting over. I found that paint like VanGogh, Artisan, and Utrecht performed just as well for a much lower cost.

Aquasol eating brushes? I will use it and find out I guess. But I've heard the same of turpentine, but haven't seen it to be true.

Does anyone know where I can view some paintings by Arthur Stern?

[arcitect]

Oddly enough, the genuinely risky elements are often odorless.

I use the odor as an alarm -when people begin complaining that the whole building smells, I reconsider sitting amongst the fumes.

Old Holand is not the only paint around either -just thought I would mention that.

[arcitect]

Originally posted by rhoward:
Odorless mineral spirits are available in bulk at any store catering to housepainters. It's identical to Turpenoid, Adenoid and all the other '-oids. A gallon of it is cheap enough.



Oh, you can get highly refined oderless mineral spirits from many major hardware stores -it is a highly marketable product.

Be wary in general of any product made just for artists. Very few products are made just artists because we are not all that great of a market. Highly refined mineral spirits are much more marketable to house painters and run about $10-15 a gallon, which is not all that much less than Turpenoid at a big reseller but is still significantly less than you would see at smaller reseller.

It still smells quite a bit.

[windex]

Originally posted by beauxman:
FYI, the following palette of colors will run you about $55.00 for OH:


Where on earth are you buying OH for these prices?!?! I haven't seen aything even near that cheap, including the pile I bought in Amsterdam.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The so-called odorless thinners that you buy at hardware stores or paint centers are not odorless!!!!! They stink terrible. A true odorless paint thinner is put out by SunnySide and might be available at your local art store. It is also inexpensive. Also consider a product called Aquasol. I just ordered 2 gallons of the stuff. It is a water-based cleaner instead of petroleum based and I think it will make cleanup after using those old-fashioned out-dated oils much easier. And of course it is non-toxic. You can get that from Dick Blick or Jerry's for about 21 dollars a gallon.


WRONG WRONG WRONG! The odorless thinner that we buy comes from Parks Solvents and it is odorless. You really must understand that there are products not available at every neighborhood shopping mall. Parks Solvents are available at stores that cater to professional housepainters. You'll not find that quality in stores like Lows and Home Depot. The odorless thinner costs about one dollar per gallon more than regular mineral spirits.

making it odorless is easy and once you understand a wee bit about catalytic cracking, it becomes clear to you. Failing that understanding one is reduced to shouting out their ignorance in a loud and bumptious fashion.


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[rhoward]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:
The odorless stuff found in hardware stores ain't worth any money since it stinks. Sunnyside is about 3 some dollars for a quart I think. Also Turpenoid is one of the best true odorless solvents, but it is about the same cost for a gallon as Aquasol. 21 dollars.

Judging from the tone and the misinformed quality, I take it that this is Derek Van Derven in another guise.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by arcitect:
Oh, you can get highly refined oderless mineral spirits from many major hardware stores -it is a highly marketable product.

Be wary in general of any product made just for artists. Very few products are made just artists because we are not all that great of a market.

With rare exception, I concur. The very best gums are made for the food industry, as is the best mastic. The best canada balsam finds its greatest user base with technicians mounting miscroscope slides (it's optically pure). More hide glue is used making gummed tape than could ever be used by the art materials industry. The same can be said for pigments and oils. Now that alkyd paints have captured the house paint market, the art materials manufacturers are trying to move artists into accepting alkyds as a bona fide medium for painting. Their oil-modified alkyds are a step in marketing that direction. Water-soluble oils are another industrial product that found application at the hands of the clever marketers who operate the larger art materials firms.

On the heels of everyone living in fear of a bacterial attack from outer space (or their doorknobs), all sorts of art materials have been marketed to address those fears -- water soluble oils, thermo-setting plastics such as Genesis, odorless thinners, that awful citrus junk and a few other examples of P.T.Barnum's famous dictum about a certain type of consumer being born every minute.

Couple that with a market composed of woefully inexperienced consumers who operate more on rumor and myth than on any actual basis in fact (so many of them will roundly decry this or that material without ever having seen it, let alone tried it).

I agree that the stinky stuff is the best to use because it's like "the canary in the coal mine" in that it warns you when there's too much in the air and you need to open the windows a bit wider.



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[colinbarclay]

Originally posted by rhoward:
The very best gums are made for the food industry, as is the best mastic. The best canada balsam finds its greatest user base with technicians mounting miscroscope slides (it's optically pure).



rhoward,
I recieve a catalog from Cole-Palmer ( a chemical lab supplier ) that lists mastic tears , damar , canada balsam etc - would these be of the quality you are speaking of ?
Colin

[TPS]

From RH:
Parks Solvents are available at stores that cater to professional housepainters. You'll not find that quality in stores like Lows and Home Depot.

I purchase Parks OMS from Lowe's paint dept. So it is available there, and I concur that it is very acceptable. Besides, I always have a fan blowing across my work area when working.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by colinbarclay:
rhoward,
I recieve a catalog from Cole-Palmer ( a chemical lab supplier ) that lists mastic tears , damar , canada balsam etc - would these be of the quality you are speaking of ?
Colin

I don't know, Colin. We get our gums from a company that supplies them to food manufacturers (tragacanth has fallen into disuse because it is so expensive). The mastic we get comes directly from Chios and it is the grade sold for glazing Greek pastry. The best grade of mastic can be chewed like gum.



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[rhoward]

Originally posted by TPS:

I purchase Parks OMS from Lowe's paint dept. So it is available there, and I concur that it is very acceptable. Besides, I always have a fan blowing across my work area when working.

I'm pleased to learn that they are carrying Parks solvents.

I'm also pleased to learn that you take responsibility for maintaining your health rather than hoping for a new law to be passed that will take scary stuff off the market. Soon we'll have scary movies about crazed killers who destroy their victims with turpentine and oil paints.



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[arcitect]

Originally posted by rhoward:
... you take responsibility for maintaining your health rather than hoping for a new law to be passed that will take scary stuff off the market. Soon we'll have scary movies about crazed killers who destroy their victims with turpentine and oil paints.

I am uncertain of the actual quantity of bills which actually seek to outlaw artists' materials. Occasionally artists' materials do get caught in the cross-fire when bills seek to outlaw and/or regulate materials which are notorious industrial troublemakers. That these materials are often used by artists as well is mostly an unfortunate coincidence.

I think it is wise that people be educated as to the potential risks a product poses to both their immediate health and through chronic exposure, as well as potential hazards to their offspring -both here today and yet to be conceived. Longterm environmental issues are also valid issues to address. People have a right (and even a need) to know so they may make educated choices and handle their potentially risky materials with geniune care.

Certainly we can not go around outlawing everything that could be dangerous. However, we are ill served when we do not seek to educate people as to the genuine risk, how to manage said risks, and proper handling methods.

Mineral Spirits and turpentine are not all that dangerous but you should avoid skin contact as much as possible -especially with petroleum products. No need to be paranoid, just use some precaution. You do not want to wash them down the drain either. Collect them into a seperate container and have them recycled. This not only prevents them from corroding your pipes and entering the water supply, but it also allows you to trap and recycle most of the left-over heavy metal pigments used during painting. Open a window and run a fan. Be sure to have cross-ventilation and be certain you are "behind" the escaping vapors -you do not want to stand square in the center of the contaminated air current. This is not a hassle nor it is paranoid, it is just a good practice founded on good sense.

Good sense requires that one has the information upon which to base it. All-Natural thinners are not necessarily good for you or the environment and I, for one, have doubts about how they effect a paint film. Water soluable oils are bit extreme as they were originally to be marketed for children directly to schools.* I am uncertain as to the paint film properties and the potential moderate to long term failure rate. I am severely skeptical that they legitimately reduce solvent use as you are not supposed to thin them with water. Another interesting factoid would be that I have -when money was extremely tight- reserved my turps for thinning and washed my brushes using only the thinner I had left over from painting, rags, and soap and water. They are fine.

So, use precaution and be concerned -there is good cause to be. Ask questions, but most importantly do your own legwork -research, research, research!

Excercise good judgement -do not try to mix your own Flake White oil paint unless you are 100% certain you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

One last note -it is off topic, but it is a pet peeve of mine- please do not use Damar varnish as a medium. NEVER EVER. Thank you.

[tammy]

I'm with you Arc. I rather have the smell so I know where the stuff is. There are many things to which an ordur (sp) is added so that we may be alert to its presence. It is usually not the smell which is dangerous, but the actual substance which is behind the smell. ( that is not always one and the same thing although sometimes it is)

[357 Mag]

I don't think water soluble oils are any bit extreme. Water is always and always will be an easier tool to clean up with. Hence, the great attraction to acrylics and watercolors. Have any of you noticed that when going to Barnes and Noble, there are 28 watercolor books to every 2 on oil? No doubt the easier cleanup somehow factors in to some people's decision to use the medium. Personally, I think it's too thin and wimpy. Cleanup with traditional oils is messy, and toxic. I've never had a problem working with the solvents, but I've spoken to more than one who has. In that respect, water soluble oils are a godsend. Every company that produces a conventional oil should consider producing a water mixable one.

[357 Mag]

I don't think water soluble oils are any bit extreme. Water is always and always will be an easier tool to clean up with. Hence, the great attraction to acrylics and watercolors. Have any of you noticed that when going to Barnes and Noble, there are 28 watercolor books to every 2 on oil? No doubt the easier cleanup somehow factors in to some people's decision to use the medium. Personally, I think it's too thin and wimpy. Cleanup with traditional oils is messy, and toxic. I've never had a problem working with the solvents, but I've spoken to more than one who has. In that respect, water soluble oils are a godsend. Every company that produces a conventional oil should consider producing a water mixable one.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by arcitect:
One last note -it is off topic, but it is a pet peeve of mine- please do not use Damar varnish as a medium. NEVER EVER. Thank you.

That used to be a peeve of mine until I realised that I was peeved, not because of any solid empirical knowledge but out of theoretical understanding. I was as wrong as those who think that eating broccoli results in little chunks of broccoli floating about in their blood stream. The reality is that something happens to the chemical makeup of the softer resins when they are mixed with a drying oil.

Of course we should always be prudent with the amount of soft resin we add to any painting medium, but only a little is needed for it to do its primary job...act as an adhesive (oils are poor adhesives, good binders but bad adhesives). 10% resin to 90% oil will make it stick without adding any undue gloss or stickiness. Mixing that oil/resin combo with an equal amount of solvent (turps or spike) brings it down to 5%. Mixing no more than the maximum recommended amount of medium to paint (20%) brings the resin content down to 1%. That's safe and it still does its job of sticky the paint to previous coats without it beading up.

The resin is thoroughly mixed into the mixture and my visions of little tunnels of damar resin being eaten away by subsequent aplications of solvent were entirely unfounded.



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[rhoward]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:

Every company that produces a conventional oil should consider producing a water mixable one.

With the exception of the companies devoted to producing quality paints for serious painters, they have all jumped on the bandwagon. Please continue using them. I don't need anymore competition.



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[357 Mag]

Actually there are only a few that put out water soluble oils. Holbein, Grumbacher, Talens, and Winsor & Newton. I would like to see water soluble oils from DaVinci, Gamblin, and Utrecht. I might consider making and marketing my own too.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:
I might consider making and marketing my own too.

With your knowledge of art materials, you might do well.

[LaPetiteJehanne]

Or not.

[oleCC]

Wellll Alrightyeee then!!! Had been seriously considering branching out into using oils (as opposed to my ever-lovin watercolors) - until I read all these posts.
I would have to use the less odorless water based kind, and with all this controversy about its' quality...guess NOT. I can't afford to "play" with it only to learn I had thrown money away later on. Hmmmm Carol

[357 Mag]

You must not let yourself be wrongly swayed by the unnecessary crap that is written about art products on these forums. You will not be throwing money away on the water soluble oils. They handle just like regular ones, it's just that some people who are conventionalists think that if you aren't using the same pigments Rembrandt used, the same oils Rembrandt used, the same hog hair Rembrandt used, the same grounds Rembrandt used, and so on, then you obviously are using inferior materials and thus are not an artist. Just shake your undies in their general direction.

[Marla]

OleCC please don't be afraid to try water soluble oil paints. They are wonderful! Just ask Carly and a few others I think use them like Drew Davis and Old Florida. Where are these guys when you need them? I think we need to consider a separate forum for water soluble oils to discuss techniques and the pros and cons by people who actually use them. I am very content with them and feel the peace of mind that I'm not filling my home with solvent fumes as I have my husband and lots of pets to consider when I paint. And a gas log a few feet away.

Just start out with a sample set and I bet you'll fall in love with them! I did and so have a lot of people who had been using traditional oils. I use Max, Winsor and Newton's Artisan and Holbein's Duo Aqua oils.

[oleCC]

Phew! Heard That! Thanks for the response, I also got a very informative email about all this. : ) Carol

[rhoward]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:
Just shake your undies in their general direction.

Oh you silver-tongued devil! If you can avoid doing that, please do. Just the thought of you waving your undies is a sure cure for a healthy appetite.

GaaacK! Perhaps you should swear off words for a while until you learn to handle them with a bit more skill than in that demnstration.



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[VictoriaS]

"Perhaps you should swear off words for a while until you learn to handle them with a bit more skill than in that demnstration."

That was my thought exactly when Mag equated paying a few extra bucks for a tube of cadmium yellow with rape.

[357 Mag]

Hey Marla; how do you compare the Holbein Water Solubles against the Max and the Artisan? Greater than, equal to, or less than?

I hope you aren't in charge of any text processing at your studio products there Rob. Your spelling is still off.

[Marla]

357 Mag, I think the Holbein Duo Aqua oils are "greater than" the others. 40 ml tubes vs 37 ml and no sign of oil when squeezing color from the tube. I only ordered 8 tubes and wish I had more. They have a wonderful selection of colors. I think you'll be pleased with them. They cost a little bit more than the others but worth it because you get a bigger tube and the quality of the paint is better in my opinion. I ordered mine from Cheap Joes and asked for info and a color chart but they were out of the color charts last month but sent me a technical sheet.

This from the company: Duo is available in 80 high chroma colors, 75 of which offer optimum permanence, with 24 phthalo and quinacridone pigments, but without the use of heavy metal and other toxic ingredients. Whites include titanium and the unique Holbein permanent white, the latter being a great mixing white with 1/4 the opacity and cover power of titanium. All DUO colors are rated for opacity and transparency.

There's more info but I thought this the most important for your needs. The rest of the sheet tells how they are made and how to blend with tradtional oils like you do using the other brands. They have a website with their color samples and info. http://www.holbeinhk.com/\duooil.htm

[rhoward]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:


I hope you aren't in charge of any text processing at your studio products there Rob. Your spelling is still off.

Ah but my syntax is perfect...and I can draw and paint very well.



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[AIGottlieb]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:
...it's just that some people who are conventionalists think that if you aren't using the same pigments Rembrandt used, the same oils Rembrandt used, the same hog hair Rembrandt used...

Um, didn't he paint with badger hair?

[rhoward]

Originally posted by AIGottlieb:
Um, didn't he paint with badger hair?



Yes, and according to 357 Magnesia, he also used Utrecht paints and avoided those fancy mediums...just water soluble paints http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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[bk7251]

I recomment a product called Gamsol, which is oderless mineral spirits from Gamblin Artists' Colors. Much information on this and studio safety, and many other interesting topics, is available on their web site.

http://www.gamblincolors.com/

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[gmc]

SOOOOOOOOO! does anyone know of a good odourless thinner that cleans your brushes instead of eats them and makes them fuzzy at the ends. Or am i using the wrong brushes??

[Degas5]

Hi Gloria-It definitely has to be your brushes or your cleaning habits. First, start with the best brush you can afford, because it will also be more responsive to your strokes. Secondly, never let your brushes sit bristle side down in your solvent while you paint. Rest it on your table. When you're finished painting remove excess paint on a soft cotton cloth, like a tee shirt grasping the ferrile as you do this and pulling the paint out of the brush away from the ferrile so that your working with the shape of the brush. I then use my solvent to remove more paint from the brush, again working with a soft cloth with the shape of the brush. Finally, use a "mild" soap. I like ivory and run the bristles over the bar and back and forth in your palm and rinse. Repeat the process until there is no pigment stain on the soap. Most importantly, lay your brushes down on their sides on an absorbant towel and allow them to dry. There is a good article in this month's Artist Magazine (Jan.2001 issue) on brush cleaning. Ordinary household cooking oil can replace the use of solvents if you find them too drying or Winsor Newton's Artgel. I love that stuff, but it can be expensive if you paint with alot of brushes.

[gmc]

Degas5 Thanks for answering. actually i do all of the above. the heartbreak is that the sable brushes are the ones to go. the only think i do differently is wipe with a paper towel. could that be it? now i am curious. of course the sable is not professional expensive, but expensive enough. brand is grumbacher and windsor newton. i had one go on me that i just spent 27. for. that was a heartbreak. happy painting. gloria

[rhoward]

Originally posted by gloria777a:
the heartbreak is that the sable brushes are the ones to go


Sables are MUCH tougher than bristles. Are you painting with water soluble paint and mixing water into the paint? Also, acrylic ground will tear up brushes very quickly. Another thing is if you bear down and scrub with a brush. A skilled brush handler can appear to scrub with a brush and never harm it but someone without that skill can kill a brush in minutes. If you're killing sables then something is very wrong.



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[Degas5]

Gloria-I agree with Mr. Howard. Something that you're doing or not doing is the problem. If that Grumbacher was a Renoir sable, it's a great brush and that shouldn't happen. I would say it is likely the way you use the brush. Sables are meant to be used with a light touch. Take note of how you handle the brush next time you paint. If hardly everf scrub with a sable, but when I do scrub it's with the flat part of the brush against the canvas and do it ever so gently. I'm sorry for your problem. I hate to loose a good brush. Do you ever use mongoose? They have more body and keep their shape with less trouble and have nice spring, yet soft enough. I love mongoose rounds for control.

[figgby]

Rhoward what about a product called livos as a turps sub. I read about it a while back but have never tried it.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by figgby:
what about a product called livos as a turps sub. I read about it a while back but have never tried it.


I've never heard of it. Understand that painting, like cooking and (esecially) baking, is chemistry. If the recipe calls for milk you don't add water just because it's another liquid. The same holds true with turpentine. It is derived from the sap of pine trees. That makes it very different from something that is derived from an oil well. Odorless thinners and mineral spirits are much more like gasoline and jet fuel than they are like turpentine.

If you are allergic to turpentine and not mineral spirits, that should be sufficient proof that they are very different...perhaps so different that they don't do anywhere near the right thing with paint.

The question to ask is whether you want to bend the paint to fit your physical infirmities or whether you have the discipline to bend yourself to the paint. If it's the latter, you do it by the paint's chemical rules, not some crack-brained quasi-medical, half-fast evironmental measure. Either you paint correctly or you don't.


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[gmc]

actually when i used good old fashioned turpentine i had wonderful brushes. perhaps it is the paint i am using. i used to use grumbacher. have since turned to some bob ross and windsor newton winton, and odorless thinner. it seems that that thinner does not clean the brushes as well. perhaps the paint is in the ferrel. although i do wash them with ivory soap and water. i am not doing anything different in painting or clean up as i once did. I am sure the brushes are not the quality that you speak of. thanks for posting.

[windex]

I don't think I saw anyone else suggest this (and my apologies if I just missed it), but are you mixing the paint with your brushes? That can cause lots of damage, particularly to sables. The other big brush-damaging culprit is splaying the bristles out while cleaning them in order to get the paint out of the ferrule, but I think you said you aren't doing that...

One of my bad painting habits is that while I intend to mix with my palette knife, I often get a "light bulb" kind of idea (As in: Wow! I need to float in some background color where the form turns!) and before I'm conscious of what I'm doing, i've mixed up a puddle of paint with the brush in my hand, rather than calmly putting the brush down and mixing the new puddle with my knife. Killing this habit is going to be my number 2 New Year's Resolution, right after Paint More---the perennial #1. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[rhoward]

Originally posted by windex:
mixing the paint with your brushes? That can cause lots of damage


Excellent point, and a good habit to break. I too have been known to lapse and catch myself. However licking a couple of colors together to get streaks in the stroke is something you can only do with the brush.


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[gmc]

How about a quick point on washing brushes with ivory soap. i think you may have a point. i was told to (what are the words) fan out the tips of the brush in the palm of the hand filled with soap to reach the ferrule and inside it. I am thinking at this point that is not the correct procedure. and yes, i confess i too mix paint with the brush when i think i have a brillant color idea. another bad habit is putting the second brush between your teeth not wanting to lay it down. If i don't poison myself and yes i know it can happen, i will eventually end up with very colorful teeth.

[windex]

Originally posted by rhoward:

However licking a couple of colors together to get streaks in the stroke is something you can only do with the brush.



True, true! Broken color often adds a necessary bit of 'oomph' to a painting. Even if it does cause a bit of wear and tear on a brush, it's worth it if the wear and tear is actually in the service of making the painting better. Since, after all, the point of this is to make good paintings.

However, I'm amazed at how many people aren't aware that using the brush for the routine
mixing of colors is really damaging to the brush and largely avoidable. Picking up a $4 palette knife is a much better investment. Now if I can only remember to physically pick it up when I need it, I'll be in good shape. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/smile.gif

[ldallen]

Originally posted by kieran:
I was wondering if there are any alternatives to low odour thinners on the market? I use white spirits to clean my brushes when painting with oils, but the smell they leave throughout my home is unpleasant and my wife is not happy about it!!! I went to buy some odourless thinners yesterday and was shocked at how much it cost compared to white spirit. Any suggestions?

All of a sudden I became "allergic" to regular turp, but when I went to buy the "turpenoid" I couldn't believe the price either. However, I just read recently that you can strain it through a coffe filter so I tried it. It was like new!! Now I can afford to buy it knowing it will last a lot longer.
Kieran

[Degas5]

There's an odorless mineral spirits by Five Star that sells for about $2.l0 a quart container. It is not completely odorless however. It has a slight odor somewhat like kerosene. That would be another alternative to the more expensive stuff you're using.

[esartstudio]

The smell of solvents can sometimes be hidden when it is mixed with a medium.

True turpentine must be used if you are making your own painting varnish.

But, there are plenty of people who use odorless thinners to clean up with.

There are citrus thinners on the market too that do have the scent of citrus fruit.

But, oil paint does need a solvent, and perhaps the best suggestion is to paint with adequate ventalation.

Needless to say, it is many times the turpentine rather than the oil paint itself that presents allergies to people.

Sincerely,
Ethan Semmel
==========================================
Solutions to your painting problems
oilpaintingtechniques.com (http://www.esartstudio.com/cgi-bin/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=oilpainta)
==========================================

[AIGottlieb]

Originally posted by esartstudio:

There are citrus thinners on the market too that do have the scent of citrus fruit.

Needless to say, it is many times the turpentine rather than the oil paint itself that presents allergies to people.


Uh oh. I foresee the wrath of Rhoward on the horizon.

[windex]

If rhoward is going to say something about how the citrus solvents are almost too solvent, in that they eat away at previous paint layers.. I'll second that.

I had a bad run in with citrus solvents when I was painting in a shared model situation and was asked to find an odorless alternative. I also think they made my pigments look dull, but maybe I was just cranky because they made me give up my turps & oil of spike.

[357 Mag]

If you are using oil painting brushes made for oil painting and oil paints, mixing paints with your brush should be innocuous.

[lcg]

Originally posted by 357 Mag:
...should be innocuous.
Should???...
If your suggesting that it doesn't harm your brushes to mix paint with them - this simply isn't true. It's the main cause of paint getting up in the ferrule which, if it doesn't ruin the brush altogether, will shorten it's life and cripple it's beauty.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by AIGottlieb:
Uh oh. I foresee the wrath of Rhoward on the horizon.



Naah! Citrus solvents and odorless -oids and -ines are great. Those and water soluble oils help create business for us old stick-in-the-muds who place the final outcome above all other considerations.

I love 'em. Keep using them at all cost (your own). http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/cool.gif



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Cennini Forum http://studioproducts.com/forum/forum.html

[ldallen]

There's also another odorless turpentine substitute by Houston Art called "Mona Lisa Artist Odorless Paint Thinner" that I bought in my local art store. It still cautions about breathing the vapors though. It's a lot cheaper than turpenoid at only $6.00 per quart. However, since I learned that I can strain it, I can afford to buy the turpenoid because it will last a lot longer!!

As far as the water based oils are concerned, I love them - but nobody around here carries them except in the small WN sets. I didn't even know that other companies were making them!

[Leopoldo1]

Originally posted by ldallen:
However, since I learned that I can strain it, I can afford to buy the turpenoid because it will last a lot longer!

Idallen,
I use turpenoid only in step one in cleaning my brushes and choose it mainly for the reduction of smelly flumes in my studio. I recycle the turpenoid or mineral spirits by funneling it into a gallon glass cider jug from my brush cleaning coffee can. Usually the next day the pigment has settled to the bottom of the glass jug and the top layer is virtually clean enough to decant, by pouring it back into my brush can for that days cleaning. I very seldom have to use new spirits. It is amazing how long a gallon of spirits will last, you can go for years this way and save a buck or two! http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Leo

[ldallen]

Degas5

That is exactly how I was taught to clean brushes many (many) years ago. Something I just heard (and read) about recently though was to use hair conditioner after washing them (and of course rinse it out). I also read (David Leffel I think) that you can dip them in milk to shape them.

[Leopoldo1]

Originally posted by ldallen:
that you can dip them in milk to shape them.

I think any TLC will work. It is certainly much better than ignoring this critical tool of ours, they need proper hygiene too. Hey the hair conditioner sounds logical to me, we all know most brushes are a hair product and milk is something I also heard from Mr Leffell's many insights. I've learned to use Rob Howards Ugly Dog Soap lately and I love it. The old brushes have never looked so good. Good stuff! I just stand them afterwards to dry. http://www.wetcanvas.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Leo

[Degas5]

Idallen,
I'll take David Leffel's advice; sounds like a good idea. I wonder if the milk would keep away the moths. I've only had to use my brush size once or twice, but have had more than one or two sables chewed up.
As for the hair conditioner, I don't recommend it. It will ruin your brushes. There are many different hair conditioners. Some add shine, some add body, some add emollients and soften the hair. Do you want to do this to your sables? Look at the ingredients of your hair products before you try it, if you try it.

[kelly]

Isnt it funny when the topic of washing brushes comes up it is inevitable that hair cleansing products and dishwashing products always come up?

[Dudi]

I recently bought a set of water-solulable Winsor & Newton Artisan oil colours, which work marvelously well by using a modified linseed oil which somehow dissolves in water. They can be easily thinned with water and feel and work just like standard oil paints. Since my room is poorly ventilated, I had to previously take my work outside when working with toxic solvents such as turpentine. So far they've worked great and I'm very satisfied with them. I heard some other companies are also coming out with water-solulable oil colours.

[Dudi]

Ooh, I didn't read all the comments earlier. As far as I know, the water-solulable Winsor & Newton Artisan oil paints are just as nice as the Finity series which I previously used. However, I have rather simple painting techniques and previously didn't use much turpentine to thin the paint, nor much water with the new set, so it's hard to really tell a difference. The paints are definitely water-solulable, and they thin and clean very easily too. All the paint seems to come out of the brushes without the use of any soap, just water, though I use soap anyways just to be safe. Also, when used straight from the tube or with linseed oil, they seem identical to the Finity series. Some people here seem to show some oppression or distrust towards water-solulable oil paints, but I haven't seen any reasons given about their characteristics that would make them bad, leading me to wonder if you guys have really given them a try.

[rhoward]

Originally posted by kelly:
Isnt it funny when the topic of washing brushes comes up it is inevitable that hair cleansing products and dishwashing products always come up?

Why not? I use brush soap on my hair and odorless thinner on my dishes. I also wrap my head in aluminum foil to protect it from the rays the aliens are sending down to earth.

Paint...it's what's for breakfast!
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Hard-to-find materials for the serious artist http://studioproducts.com

[This message has been edited by rhoward (edited January 07, 2001).]

[dafonso]

Guys

I found a website that compares the various types of solvent out there.

http://www.gamblincolors.com/materials/solchart.html

[Trilliann]

Wow, thanks everybody for all this information.
There should be a list with links to threads like this one, for the novice like me.
How can I rate the usefullness of this thread? This thread was really helpful.

[Trilliann]

I found the dropdown to rate the thread! Duh it was right in front of me.